Topics

ONAN WEIGHT?

Rich Gillen
 

Thanks Charlie, so these Honda/Clone Singles should work with an ACE Belt Drive. There up to 626.3cc. A Honda/Clone 460 Dynoed 37.37hp@5000rpm.



1b

Re: ONAN WEIGHT?


Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:51 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"Charlie North" oldcolt1972


Morning Rich,
Two cylinder
I am not sure if I can find my paperwork from when I swapped from the
Onan to the 447 but my mind has the engine about 85 Lbs. That might
be high though. I no longer have the Onan so I can not weigh it.
Charlie North

charlie
 

I have not looked for the numbers but what kind of weight are these clones with a drive?
That kind of power would probably be about right on my Q1. I would not want less power and surly do not want a 100lb package.
I expect they would provide a considerable reduction in fuel consumption not to mention not having the fear of seizure on the slippery airfame as the 2 smokes have.
CN

At 05:35 PM 9/24/2019 +0000, you wrote:


Thanks Charlie, so these Honda/Clone Singles should work with an ACE Belt Drive. There up to 626.3cc. A Honda/Clone 460 Dynoed 37.37hp@5000rpm.

David J. Gall
 

Rich,

Two considerations:
1) The Ace redrive is a 1.6:1 redux, so your prop rpm will be 3100 at 5000 engine rpm. A box-stock redline around 3600(?) engine rpm would give 2250 prop rpm but less power, maybe 26hp based on a linear interp of your reported 37hp @ 5000 rpm. Something to think about is what numbers you want to design to so that your prop specialist can design an appropriate prop for the task. (I’d be interested in participating with that exercise.)

2) The single cylinder engine is called a “thumper” for a reason. Even with a redrive, those torque pulses will get transmitted to the prop and lead to the very real possibility of breaking props. Unfortunately, the V-twins aren’t much better, but if you run them under lower load they can make “softer” torque pulses than a hard-running single.

I’ve got an Onan and I’ll try to get you a weight measurement soon.

David J. Gall

Rich Gillen
 

Charlie:

Less than 65lbs with Mods and a ACE Belt Drive.

There is other Belt Drives for the Honda/Clones, but I like these ACE Belt Drives the best: https://www.aceaviation.co.uk/redrives

Most all of these Engines are based off the Honda GX340/GX390 Series of Engines. (88mm x 64mm) 389.4cc.   https://www.engine-specs.net/honda/gx390-k1.html


Think of (3) Different Sizes in a Series, lets say Mini Block, Small Block, and Big Block Single Engines which is the GX340+. For most People you're going to want to use the Big Block Series GX340/GX390+. They make multiple Cranks Strokes, (86.5 mm) being the Largest I have seen so far. The Max a GX390 Case can be Big Bored is 100mm. So MAX (100mm x 86.5mm) 679.6cc.

Honda/Clone GX200 (68mm x 54mm) 196.1cc rated 6.5hp@3600rpm, used as a Pair on a Lazair making about 15hp@5000rpm with Mods.

These Honda/Clone Singles, 20+ different Brand Names are popular in Go Cart Racing/Off Road Kart Racing, so many HD Racing parts are made for them. These Industrial Singles & V Twins Engines are all rated a 3600rpm, account their hooked to Generators, Water Pumps, Post Hole Diggers, Saw Mills, Pressure Washers, Weed Wackers, Utility Carts, etc., that Industry Standard is Max 3600rpm.

With the BASE Modifications needed for Plane use:
1. Disable Low Oil Sensor.
2. Disable Governor.
3. Install a Hi-Rev kit. (HD Valve Springs for 5500rpm, HD Chrome Moly Push Rods, HD Valve Keepers & Locks.
4. Install a K&N Type Air Filter.
5. Install a 34mm Flat Side Mikuni Carb or EFI (Ecotrons or Mega Squirt)
6. Install a Billet Rod.
7. Install a Billet Aluminum Flywheel to Save Weight and run higher than 5000rpm.
8. Install a Header Tuned Exhaust.
9. Install Roller Needle Bearing Rocker Arms. (Valve Train is Weakest Point on 4 Strokes.)

For making more HP!
9. Install a Bigger CAM. Stock Lift .246 & Dur .246.
10. Use Bigger Intake & Exhaust Valves.
11. Raise CR from Stock 8.0 to Max 11.5cr.
12 Port the Head.
13. Take Out Balance Shaft to Save Weight and re-balance Crank.


Example: The best bang for the buck, is a Clone Duromax 440 (92mm x 66mm) 438.9cc, 18hp@3600rpm with Electric Start $299.95 if you Shop around. 439cc making 18hp@3600rpm has an approximate 95% Volumetric Efficiency. Just raising the rpm to 5000rpm = 25hp, 5500rpm = 27hp, that's with the Stock Low Compression, Small CAM, Small Valve, Engine.

For Plane use, I don't recommend going any Higher than 5500rpm and 11.5cr. Remember a Rotax 912(80hp) is rated at 5800rpm 1/min. In Racing these Honda/Clones are turned 7000rpm to 12,000rpm. Now I have a Dyno Print of a 460 Clone (92mm x 69mm) 458.8cc, using 11.0cr, a 34mm Carb, using 40mm/32mm Valves, a .307 Lift Cam making 37.37hp@5000rpm.
458.8cc/37.37hp = 12.3cc to make 1hp! So if built to same Spec's:

GX390cc/12.3cc = 31.7hp
Clone 420cc/12.3cc = 34.1hp
Clone 440cc/12.3cc = 35.7hp
Clone 460cc/12.3cc = 37.3hp
Clone 480cc/12.3cc = 39.0hp
etc.
Vegas Cart 625cc/12.3cc = 50.8hp
MAX Big Bore 679cc/12.3cc = 55.2hp

Some of the Best Honda/Clone Engine builders on YouTube. Both have many Video's.
Pauls karts
Red Beard

A 420cc Predator, Stage 2 Engine Build ~ Billet Rod, Billet Flywheel & Performance Cam. Same procedure for all of these Honda/Clone Engines.




Installing a Ecotrons EFI on a Honda GX390.

Some of the Top Parts websites. There are more sites.




Vegas Carts 625 ( 96mm x 86.5mm) 626.3cc: https://vegascarts.com/collections/engines/625

Rich

1b

Re: ONAN WEIGHT?


Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:51 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Charlie North" oldcolt1972


I have not looked for the numbers but what kind of weight are these
clones with a drive?
That kind of power would probably be about right on my Q1. I would
not want less power and surly do not want a 100lb package.
I expect they would provide a considerable reduction in fuel
consumption not to mention not having the fear of seizure on the
slippery airfame as the 2 smokes have.
CN

David J. Gall
 

I pulled my Onan off the firewall today and weighed it. The engine is stock from Quickie Aircraft Corp. except with the 20hp heads. It has stock QAC exhausts but no heat muffs. It has the triangular aluminum engine mount and 3/8" mount bolts but no mount rubbers or washers or nuts. It has the stock steel prop hub and aluminum prop crush plate and bolts (but no prop). It has the as-delivered QAC iron flywheel (no cooling fan fins). I removed the governor internals. I weighed it with no coil or coil mounting hardware, no carb air box or scat hoses, and no baffles. I weighed it on a digital bathroom scale that "calibrated" correctly to my own personal weight. The total is 82.0 lbs.

David J. Gall

charlie
 

Thank you David,
I am glad to see after all these years I have my numbers right stating 85 as an estimate to work with since on places like Homebuilders I have seen from the "experts" there 100# being the number
Charlie.


At 01:08 AM 9/26/2019 +0000, you wrote:
 

I pulled my Onan off the firewall today and weighed it. The engine is stock from Quickie Aircraft Corp. except with the 20hp heads. It has stock QAC exhausts but no heat muffs. It has the triangular aluminum engine mount and 3/8" mount bolts but no mount rubbers or washers or nuts. It has the stock steel prop hub and aluminum prop crush plate and bolts (but no prop). It has the as-delivered QAC iron flywheel (no cooling fan fins). I removed the governor internals. I weighed it with no coil or coil mounting hardware, no carb air box or scat hoses, and no baffles. I weighed it on a digital bathroom scale that "calibrated" correctly to my own personal weight. The total is 82.0 lbs.

David J. Gall

Rich Gillen
 


Thanks David for the Onan 82lb Weight. ACE will Design & Build a Belt Drive for your HP/RPM Spec's. Since 5500rpm is the Highest I would use, some people are turning these 6350rpm on Para planes. Ideally, I would want 2750rpm for the prop. The 3600rpm is not so much for the Engine as the Things it Powers! It's a 4 Stoke, Engine which most use a 5500rpm for redline, like I said a Rotax 912 4 Stroke uses 5800rpm. Do you have to Beef up some of the parts for higher rpm, Yes. The Stock Valve Springs(16-18lbs) will Float much after 4000rpm. The Stock Stamped Rocker Arms are weak. More Valve Spring lb Pressure means more HD Push Rods needed, as well as HD Valve Locks and Keepers. Most of these Engine Company's offer a Hi-Rev kit for 4950rpm, why 4950rpm, account the Stock Cast Iron Flywheel can Explode above 5500rpm. You Save a lot of Weight and get piece of mind using the Billet Flywheel. Most all of these Mods come in under $400. I would spend the extra $250 for the HD Needle Bearing Rocker Arms, even if I was turning it a lower 4000rpm. The Valve Train is the weakest point of a 4 Stroke. While everyone has different ideas on Prop rpm needed, I look at one of the oldest still made, the Cont. O-200 rated 100hp@2750rpm.

3600rpm/2750rpm= 1.30 Ratio.
4000rpm/2750rpm= 1.45 Ratio.
4500rpm/2750rpm= 1.64 Ratio.
5000rpm/2750rpm= 1.82 Ratio.
5500rpm/2750rpm= 2.00 Ratio.
6000rpm/2750rpm= 2.18 Ratio.

Rotax's most used Redrive Ratio was 2.58. A 277UL turning 6250rpm/2.58= 2422.5rpm, a 377/447/503 turning 6500rpm/2.58= 2519.4rpm.

A 277UL turning 6250rpm/2.0= 3125.0rpm, a 377/447/503 turning 6500rpm/2.0= 3250.0rpm.

A 277UL turning 6250rpm/2.238 = 2792.7rpm, a 377/447/503 turning 6500rpm/ 2.238 = 2904.4rpm.

So the Big Question is, How Big a Prop can a Quickie(Q1) Tail Dragger actually use?

What was Max Fuel Capacity?

With a:
 What can be done to Increase the Quickie(Q1) Max Take Off Weight of 485lbs? Carbon Spar?

An Aerolite 103 with a 600lb MTOW only needs 36.5hp. A Q1 at MTOW of 485lbs needs less, 29.6hp.

If the Onan was 82lbs and a Skidoo 583 (???lbs) was put in one, I'm guessing 120lbs, is the 485 MTOW Number right?

The Quickie Q2.
      Powerplant: 1 × Revmaster 2100-DQ converted auto-engine, 64 hp (47.7 kW) at 3,200 rpm

Nice Prop Static Thrust & HP needed Calc:

True, a Single will Vibrate more than a Twin, or a Triple, etc. But most of these $300-$800 Honda/Clone Engines, 4 Strokes, are not really Balanced. Most of the Cranks are way over Weight than needed. A Belt Reduction will Help with some of the Torque Pulses. Many 2 Strokes have the same problems.

These Singles and V Twins are being used around the World, and not Breaking Props.


=======================================================

In a message dated 9/26/2019 7:53:18 AM Central Standard Time, Q-Performance@... writes:

1a

Re: ONAN WEIGHT?


Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:46 am (PDT) . Posted by:

davidjgall

Rich,

Two considerations:
1) The Ace redrive is a 1.6:1 redux, so your prop rpm will be 3100 at 5000 engine rpm. A box-stock redline around 3600(?) engine rpm would give 2250 prop rpm but less power, maybe 26hp based on a linear interp of your reported 37hp @ 5000 rpm. Something to think about is what numbers you want to design to so that your prop specialist can design an appropriate prop for the task. (I’d be interested in participating with that exercise.)

2) The single cylinder engine is called a “thumper” for a reason. Even with a redrive, those torque pulses will get transmitted to the prop and lead to the very real possibility of breaking props. Unfortunately, the V-twins aren’t much better, but if you run them under lower load they can make “softer” torque pulses than a hard-running single.

I’ve got an Onan and I’ll try to get you a weight measurement soon.

David J. Gall