Re: [Dragonflylist] RE: [Q-Performance] Quickie as LSA

Rick Hole

Be careful you get your regulations straight before trusting what someone
(including myself) tells you. I believe you will find that ELSA does NOT
give you design modification rights as does Experimental Amateur...

Anyway this whole discussion is off topic for Q-List. We simply fly too
fast to qualify flying one under the LSA rule (not Sport eligible), and
there is no possibility of certifying one outside the Experimental Amateur
Home-built category. ELSA is not possible, it only can be done as a
kit-build duplicate of an SLSA aircraft.

As to modifying a Quickie/Q2 to meet the stall and Vno speeds required, you
no longer have a Quickie/Q2. Performance list is a good place to explore
that possibility. Realize that you would be in uncharted territory and
basically designing an airplane from scratch. Make sure you know what you
are doing and are prepared for unexpected adverse characteristics. Not for
the beginner or faint-of-heart.

It's a bit like building a Ferrari but putting in a transmission with only
1st and 2nd gear...


-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Edward Lysogorski
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 9:43 PM
To: dragonflylist@...; q-list@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] RE: [Dragonflylist] RE: [Q-Performance] Quickie as LSA

This ELSA thing can be very confusing. We were taught at the September
2009, 120 hour course by RAINBOW AVIATION, in OSHKOSH, that after the
expiration of the transition dead line for fat ultralights, there will still
exist one (1) way to build an ELSA. The requirement is that a manufacturer
that has an approved SLSA can market it in kit form and the 'homebuilt kit'
must be an exact replica of the original SLSA. Seems like there is no 51%
rule or builders log to deal with.

Once the ELSA airworthiness is issued, (that very afternoon) you can change
anything you wish because it is an experimental and anybody, including your
12 year old child, can work on or make changes to an Experimental (ELSA or
Amature Built). For example, you can take off an approved Rotax engine, and
replace it with a Harly Davidson engine if you think you can get the results
you are looking for. For those of you that just gasped in disbelief about
the ability to modify, check it out with Rainbow Aviation.

The annual condition inspection is a whole different matter. With the ELSA
airworthiness you will not be able to get a builders certificate because
those are available only for 'Experimental Amature Built Aircraft';
However, as an "owner" of an ELSA you can perform your own annual condition
inspection if you take the 16 hour inspection course; and the big benifit is
that a subsequent "ELSA owner" can perform the condition inspections as well
if the new 'owner' takes the 16 hour course. That may increase the resale
value of your aircraft considerably over an Experimental Amature Built.

Vans Aircraft offers an ELSA kit,. Any manufacture that chooses to offer
an ELSA kit can do it if they have one (1) factory built SLSA that meets the
ASTM standards and they are offering a kit to build an exact replica of that
SLSA aircraft and the completed aircraft is an exact replica. By now,
other manufacturers may be offering a 10%, 50%, or a 95% kit. I'd expect
people to get into the buisiness of building ELSA aircraft for others. You
can even buy a complete flying SLSA built by any manucturer and convert the
airworthiness to ELSA if you choose to do so, that would probably lower the
resale value, however; if you were to buy a SLSA wreck, converting the
airworthiness to ELSA might be a very good option.

See for Vans
approach to marketing.

The punch line is that an ELSA would seem everybit as flexible for
modification purposes (after the airworthiness is issued) as an Experimental
Amature Built. The regulatory befuddlement of it all is that two planes
that are exactly the same can have different paperwork. Given the option
(even if I could prove 51% to get a builders certificate) I'd much prefer an
ELSA airworthiness to an Experimental Amature Built Airworthiness for the
purpose of improving the resale value.

Edward Lysogorski, 6822 Dixie Highway, Bridgeport, Michigan 48722
Phone/FAX (989) 777-9070

To: Q-Performance@...
CC: Q-LIST@...; Dragonflylist@...
From: panzera@...
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:41:37 -0700
Subject: [Dragonflylist] RE: [Q-Performance] Quickie as LSA

I was wondering if thier has been any work done on adapting the Quickie to
Light Sport Aircraft catagory by making the wing(s) larger for the slower
stall speed.
This might be splitting hairs here, but it's a pet peeve so please forgive
my rant in advance.

There is no way that the Q or any other homebuilt will ever be a "light
sport aircraft." It will always be an experimental, amateur-built. If
someone was to take the time to build and fly a prototype that is 100%
compliant with the ASTM consensus standards (jumping through all the
bureaucracy to document it properly), and then offer a kit that contains
100% of the parts it takes to build an exact replica of that plane, and the
builder went by the plans 100% all the way down to the exact placement in
the panel of the exact specified instruments (it could be painted a
different color if the prototype was painted but you could not install a
Dynon if steam gauges are specified), then that builder can register his
plane in the E-LSA category.

Note that the E-LSA kit does NOT need to meet the 51% rule. The "kit" could
literally consist of the "builder" uncrating it and installing the
propeller... but I digress.

If you as the builder of a variant of a Dragonfly or Quickie (or any plane
for that matter), were able to prove that it meets the performance
parameters of an LSA (max 2 seats, 1320 gross weight, fixed gear and prop,
cruise speed limit of 120 knots, 52 mph stall speed, etc.) then any sport
pilot may legally fly this experimental, amateur-built aircraft.

It is NOT however an LSA by any measure. It is an experimental,
amateur-built aircraft that is "sport pilot eligible."


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