Re: Anything else on a $12,500 budget?

Rich Gillen

Is that $12,500 your engine budget, or total plane budget?


Re: Anything else on a $12,500 budget?

Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:47 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"Jon Matcho" jmatcho

Rich wrote:

>What is the highest TBO of any Revmaster 2300 flying, that you have found in your research? How many have you found, that are really flying?

I have only found a few and, as I wrote, there have been no complaints or quirks with the 2300 unlike all other auto conversions. TBO is TBD.

======> That's what happens when you just have a few, really flying them. Till you see someone( I would like to see at least a 100 engines), really making some high hours on one, I would save my money, and wait, unless you like being these Companies Test Pilot. All of these Companies/Engine Builders can Test there own engines to prove them. Even on a Test Stand, you can simulate flying rpms. What's it cost to run a R-2300 GPH for just a 500hr test to really prove it? Let's just say 5 GPH at criuse rpms, 500hrs x 5GPH = 2500gals. 2500gals x $3.75 for 91octane = $9375. A torture test could be run 24/7 till done. 500/24= 20.8 days. These People/Manufactures, want YOU, to be there Test Pilot. Like I told one 2 Stroke builder, get some hrs on your engine, to really prove it makes 450hrs, 600hrs, etc. Even if you have to donate your time, and do a rebuild for free for someone local, who may volinteer to fly it. Find a farmer/business who runs a water/air pump/generator continiously for many hrs, who can document the hrs run. But if you like being someones Test Pilot, by all means, jump right in. A Military 10kw generator use's a 084 small Continetal that turns I believe 3400rpms countinious, hooked direct drive. In a plane it's rated around 45-46hp. Many people have gotten well over a 1000hrs on them flying. Any of these People/Companies could hook a VW/Subaru/Corvair/Mazda, etc., to do some testing on there own. They could use the generator to power something to recoupe some of there Investment. But most don't, they want You, to be there Tester.

>For $8000, I would rebuild a used O-200 core engine, and have a 100hp+ engine...

That's another option, with the upside that running Q200s have higher resale value than "those unreliable auto conversions".

=======> Sadly, most Qs/Dragonflys, and other Kitplanes, don't have a High Resale value. You could probably buy a Q200/Dragonfly with a O-200 for $10,000 to $18,000 and be flying. I believe a Q2 kit cost around $9000 new, before they went out of business. Many years ago, I passed on a TriQ200 for $8000 asking price, mainly because it had sat for 5 years without being started, or even turned over. I didn't know much about the O-200 back then, but that it was expensive to rebuild. Like you, I was figuring I might have to spend another $12,000 to get the engine rebuilt, and another $3000 to get the plane the way I wanted it. So $8000+$12,000+$3000 = $23,000. For $23,000 back then, I could have bought a nice used Cessna.

The Revmaster 2300 just about cannot be called an auto conversion at this point. There are hardly any parts left from an actual VW in it with all its purpose-built proprietary parts. I don't see at all why it shouldn't be a consideration for new Q2 builds. Isn't the point of the Quickie to be affordable and approachable? Oh yeah, and safe.
========> No, we call it an Experimental HD Engine, till it has proven to make at least a 1000+ Flying hrs. The point of any Kitplane, is to make it more affordable to the people who can't afford a new $180,000 Cessna 172. In todays $$$, a $9000 kit plane in 1980 would cost $28,000+ today. You still have to buy the engine, Instruments, etc.

>Building any of these engines, isn't Rocket Science! There are books, videos, etc., to learn how, and what to do.

True. A Long-EZ flyer made an impression on me when talking about his Lycoming. He asked, "Did you ever rebuild a lawnmower engine?" "Yes", I replied. "Well then you can handle these engines."
=====> Thats True, but you probably had the tools to work on the lawn mower engine, the O-200, Rotax's, etc. do require some special tools to work on them, and the parts are 3-5 times as much for just a Rotax. :)

>(Regarding whether you would trust that C90 CAD model)

>Yes, I would, he is a Russian Engineering Student. That model was for his finals. But before spending any $$$ making anything, I would always double check the part to be made.

My point was how much "double checking" this student did. I assume he had a C90 in-hand and measured each and every single part with a micrometer. You also have to assume that the C90 he used was unmodified and up to factory tolerances (perfect overhaul). Making that leap of faith and then machining something requires knowing what metal formulations are needed (certainly possible, but much more work). After machining you'll have a part that is 0.5mm larger/smaller than the one you're comparing with -- all parts will NOT be the same size as the factory castings (whatever those sizes officially are). Make another leap of faith, put the whole thing together, and fly. Now that would be an absolute remarkable achievement that I would love to read about. The model is impressive in its own right.
=======> I assumed, you would be CNC/Machining it, for yourself, and compare the 3D Model to new parts. He has done the hard part, 3D Modeling it. You, can tweak it, to your own Spec's if you want. You can use different Bores, Strokes, Fuel Injection, Change Cams, or you can even retrofit it, with HD RACING parts from other engines, but that takes a lot of time. Just like you can change over from Black Rubber O-rings that melt at 200 degrees if you put them in a fry pan, or use the new High Temp ones that won't melt till 500 degrees. Any Engine, can be improved upon. Even the O-200. Contenetal can't do it much without having to go through recertification, but you can. You wouldn't be making every part, just the big ticket items, if you can. Building these engines isn't rocket science, and neither is making the parts. You have kids/adults CNC machining AR15 Recievers, Turbine Blades, etc., on Youtube, on small hobby cnc mills. Used Industrial CNC mills, and lathes are cheap, $2000 to $8000. A Billet Skidoo/Polaris/Yamaha/Arctic Cat, Race head, cost $400 on ebay. A Rotax 582UL cast head cost $820. A block of 6061 AL, 7" x 11" x 2", on ebay sells for about $25-$30 on ebay. Granted, for a one off, it would be cheaper/faster to just buy the NOS/Used parts. But if, your a machinist, with connections to the right CNC stuff, or even bought used stuff, and know enough about CAD, you could make some of your own parts. You can always resell the tools. I was at a Car show 2 years ago, and a big Manufacture of RACE Car parts had all of them laid out on his table to view. I picked up a CAM, and asked him what the cost was, well a standard Hyd Cam starts out around $50, a Solid Cam is about $90, and a roller cam is around $300. I asked him, what if he could get $1800 for it, he laughed, what are you talking about. I said, something your not even thinking about, that's what I had heard a O-200 Cam cost. Now, do you really think that $300 HD Roller Cam going into a Hemi/Chevy SB/BB turning maybe 12,000rpms, is made any less, than a O-200 Cam turning 2750rpms? With the 3D model, you might find a CAM from another 4/6/8 cylinder that might work, or could be adpated. Take just that C90 CAM from the 3D model, and send it to one of the Big Race Car CAM makers, and get a quote to have one made. They make CAMs Special order, just like any Piston maker does. Then get a current O-200 Cam price.

>Just My Opinion

Same. I am not looking to build and fly a proven airframe-engine combination without excessive re-engineering. I consider these the options for ME at this point (no discredit whatsoever to anyone who's suggested or favored anything else -- go for it):

1) Q200 with rebuilt Continental O-200   <----- The Best choice. Research that parts lists, you might be surprized what you could build for $8000 or less, even making some updates.

2) Q2 with a new Revmaster 2300

3) Q2 with updated Revmaster 2100 (done by Revmaster)

Many other engines are appealing and viable, but I don't want to afford them and/or do the one-off work required.

Thanks everyone for all your feedback and patience from this "newbie". Off to do something... :-)



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