Re: Unsafe At Any Speed?


David J. Gall
 

Allen,

The FAA has managed to come up with a completely different way of saying
the same thing we all do, calibrated airspeed.
Ain't it the truth! :-)

I know of no way to actually "calibrate" the ASI, other than knowing what
error it contains for a certain configuration. Using a PMA pitot/static
tube, I have found no measurable error in the system. It works great.
How do you "know what error it contains" unless you calibrate it by
comparing it against the groundspeed? I'm confused here: how did you check
for errors in order to say that you "found no measurable error?" By my way
of thinking, an error is a discrepancy between two different ways of
measuring the same thing, or between the measurement and the thing itself.
What other measurement did you use for comparison with your ASI reading?

Just curious,


David J. Gall

----- Original Message -----
From: <kittleson1@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Unsafe At Any Speed?


David,

I downloaded the AC and you are 100% correct. My apologies.

The FAA has managed to come up with a completely different way of saying
the same thing we all do, calibrated airspeed. I do realize that they
are doing it in reverse, without using ANY airspeed indicator at all, but
merely taking a ground speed, calculating a TAS and then working
backwards to what the CAS should be, and calling it something else.

I know of no way to actually "calibrate" the ASI, other than knowing what
error it contains for a certain configuration. Using a PMA pitot/static
tube, I have found no measurable error in the system. It works great.

I also have an adjustable TAS indicator. I have found no measurable
difference between it and E6B type computations and have concluded that
the FAA's point in suggesting that one figure some sort of True Indicated
Airspeed to be nearly completely useless.

But your are completely correct.

Al

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 23:17:01 -0400 "David J. Gall" <David@...>
writes:
Hi, Al,

There's an area of the art of aviating that no one ever seems to
mention any
more, and that's the gulf separating experiment from application. As
pilots,
we are so used to reading a number from an instrument then applying
some
conversions to it -- by charts and tables, or by computers -- to get
to the
information we want (in this case, TAS) that we find it difficult to
conceive of the process in reverse. As TEST pilots, however, that is
exactly
what we must do. As pilots, we read the conversion charts; as TEST
pilots,
we CREATE the conversion chart.

Each of us who has built an airplane and done the test flying ought
to be
intimately familiar with this topic, because so much of the rest of
our
airplanes' performance is built around an assumption that our
airspeed
indicator is accurate. Your statement about flying on the wing of
another Q
illustrates this point. Although you may not have gone to the
trouble of
preparing a formal airspeed calibration chart, you have noted the
discrepancy from one airplane to the next. You've compared your
airspeed to
a reference, just not the reference of the ground. If we all make
our
comparisons to the groundspeed and we all follow the same procedure
to do
so, then we have a reasonable standard for comparison between
airplanes
without having to fly formation on one-another. This is how "rules"
get
written. The FAA has a whole passel of rules for us to use, based in
part on
bureaucratic BS and in part on 100 years of test flying.

The term "True Indicated Airspeed" is directly from page 43 of AC
90-89A,
the FAA's "Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing
Handbook,"
Chapter 4, Section 3, paragraph 5 "Airspeed In-Flight Accuracy
Check,"
subparagraph b. If you haven't heard or seen it before, then I must
presume
that you have never gone through the process of calibrating an
airspeed
indicator on a newly-manufactured airplane. Anyone who has done so
must have
encountered the value, even if they didn't know the "official" FAA
name for
it.

If you have built and test flown an airplane without encountering
the
concept embodied in the "True Indicated Airspeed," regardless of the
name
you may have used for it, then you have missed an opportunity to
standardize
your airplane and know what it is really doing. I've seen lots of
guys who
have saved every single receipt for the cost of building their
pride-and-joy
and can account for it by categories like "tools" and "paint;" it's
such a
shame that so many of us haven't taken the time to perform the most
rudimentary airspeed checks and record them. What was the point of
building
your own plane if you literally DON'T KNOW what you have after all
that
sweat?

I'm not picking on you, Al, or singling out anyone else. We all have
the
fudge-factor "it's good enough" going on some times, and if you fly
one
plane from its birth, you "know" these things without having to
formally
document them. And as an engineering PhD I know routinely says, if
you can
figure things to within 20% and be right, major corporations will
buy you
whatever you want. But as a co-worker is fond of saying, it IS
important to
know "the book" well enough to know what lie to tell, and when. Some
of us
just aren't "lying" very well.

I think I'll spend the rest of the evening rounding up the last year
or so's
worth of Sport Aviation back issues and reading the series of
articles on
test flying.


David J. Gall, amateur
I think I got the right subject line this time :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: <kittleson1@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 12:31 AM
Subject: [Q-LIST] what speed?


David,

For people who weren't confused before they read you response,
they may
be after.

I have never before, heard or seen anything called "True
Indicated
Airspeed".

It's one or the other, not both. (Except ,of course, if there is
no
instrument error and that you are flying at sea level on a
standard
day.....all very unlikely)

Rarely is the indicated airspeed (IAS) accurate enough to use
without
factoring in the installation error to get your calibrated
airspeed
(CAS).

My pitot/static tube makes things pretty close, but my experience
flying
the wing on one other Q showed at least 8 mph difference in IAS
with
other bird...the other one being highly optimistic.

Just don't go fast enough to worry about equivalent
airspeed,(EAS).

Al Franken




On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:32:59 -0400 "David J. Gall"
<David@...>
writes:
Pat,
snip>

Run the true groundspeed through your E6B computer for altitude
and
temperature and it becomes True Indicated Airspeed. Be careful,
though,
because you need to make that calculation backwards from the TAS
calculation
you're used to. Whereas you would normally take your indicated
airspeed in
cruise and use your E6B to find your TAS, here you have the TAS
(true
groundspeed) and you're trying to find out what your airspeed
indicator
should read. Once you've done that, compare this against what
your
airspeed
indicator actually indicated during the flight (you did fly a
steady
airspeed at constant altitude and RPM, didn't you?) and you'll
have
one data
point on your airspeed calibration card for your airplane flight
manual. See
AC 90-89A Chapter 4, Section 3, paragraph 5.

With the advent of GPS, we no longer have to fly a measured
course
over the
ground; just take your GPS groundspeed readings while traveling
in
two
opposite directions, then average them. That's your true
airspeed as
you
would find it in no wind conditions. If you wish, plug that into
your E6B
for temperature and altitude (backward calculating, again), and
you'll know
what your airspeed indicator >should< have been reading at the
time.


David J. Gall

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Panzera" <panzera@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Wingtip Lenses




James Postma wrote:

This is why record attempts are two way over a closed
course.
YOu can
do
the same with your GPS by doing a 180 and averaging the two.
Do
it into
the
wind if you can and then downwind to minimize crosswind
components.

That sounds all fine and dandy, but can you guarantee the
wind
speed,
direction and temperature will remain constant for each run?
I
can't.

And here's an extreme example. Say you want to find the
PERFORMANCE
capability of tiny single seater, 1/2 veedub, 80mph vne
aircraft.

You plot a course between 2 points. Your down wind leg has a
100mph
tailwind. You arrive at the finish line and turn around.
Start
heading
toward the new finish line and never make it because you are
flying
backwards across the ground. What dose this tell you about
the
performance of this aircraft?

Ground references for performance verification is ridiculous.
If you want to know how fast your airplane is capable of
traveling,
look at your airspeed and adjust what you see for alittude and
temperature.

If you want to know how long it's going to take to go
someplace,
use
this new PERFORMANCE information against the predicted winds
to
get an
anticipated ground speed.

Record attempts are done both ways because it's the only
possible
way
to attempt to factor out any tail wind. In all reality,
anyone
hoping
to set a new record, would hope for no wind at all,
especially
if
it's over a timed course.

Hope this helps.

Pat



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html





-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html


________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html





-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html


________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html



Join main@Q-List.groups.io to automatically receive all group messages.