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[Fwd: [Dragonflylist] Mountain States Canard Wing Fly-In April 29-31]

Sam Kittle
 

Weather looks like it is going to cooperate quite nicely again this year for the Mountain States Canard Wing Fly-In and Engine Show in two weeks.

http://www.MountainStatesFly-In.com/

We have NO hangar as of this minute, but that could change if we (and the FBO) get lucky between now and the event.

If you are planning to drive in, bring extra folding chairs for those who are flying in, and something to keep the sun off your noggin in case we are outside all day. We may very well be meeting on the tarmac on Saturday.

Since we are now on the east side of the runway, we do not have as easy access to the convenience store next to the FBO like last year, so bring a cooler.

Fuel discounts are in effect for attendees, and tiedown fees are waived if you purchase fuel.

Almanac says:
95% chance of a Warm day (60*F - 90*F) Average High is 85*F, Average Low 65*F
Mostly Sunny expected
Average wind 7mph, gusting to 21mph max

I look forward to seeing all of you again.

I would appreciate if someone would forward this to the Q-List and Corvair List. Thanks.

Don Stewart








Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Mark/Pat Pearson/Pound <wlkabout@...>
 

Kevin:
How big of a syringe can you find? You don't really need to know
how much the arrangement as is will/might generate. You need to know if
doing so can recreate your problem.

Kevin Fortin wrote:



Mark,

That sparks some interesting testing ideas. Let me do a bit of math
and see
what kind of vacuum 120/140 mph (in Denver) represents, then I can
guess if
I can make a "constant vacuum" supply that I can use on the ramp for
testing.....Interesting


Kevin



kevin:
Can you rig up a vacumn to the gas filler to try to replicate the
apparent lose of fuel flow? measure the vacumn?

Mark

Kevin Fortin wrote:


Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something
here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that
it
was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term
loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force.
It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward
facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air
rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the
gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it
absolutely
could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head"
of
a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after
takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a
separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed
before
my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do
it,
but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin



-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing
that

has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting.
The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize
the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't
have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all
leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on
engines,

but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of
your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On
Behalf

Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other
firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can
for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined
up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per
plan
as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet
the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at
this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan
B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a
few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get
her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's
say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground
without

any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out
for
a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started
pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake
(Johnson

bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway.
Damn,
I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten
hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran
the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting
down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the
compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not
knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch,
and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it
before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet
an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











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---------------------------------------------------------------
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Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links









Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org




---------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Kevin Fortin <kfortin@...>
 

Sam and gang,

I have to admit, thinking that I scared the hell out of myself because I
didn't tighten the gas cap properly is a bit annoying but at this point,
this line of thinking is making the most sense. If you or anyone has a way
to test this I would appreciate it.

Also, any opinions on a boost pump to give a bit more margin would be
appreciated.

I still may have some engine problems that I want to get to, but I feel sure
that my excitement was fuel related.

Note....I really don't want to do a repeat performance. I'm sure the tower
would appreciate it too.

Kevin

Kevin,

This phenomena of the low pressure air leaking into the fuel system is well
documented. In fact, that was my first thought when I read your e-mail.
Naturally all the gascolator foes come out of the woodwork, but if you have
a leaky gas cap you will have trouble.

It happened to me, to Art Jewett, and to others. I made a mention of it on
my modifications page: http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/modifications.html

Sam

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html







_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Kevin Fortin
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:58 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems




Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it, but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that
has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting. The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,
but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without
any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson
bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn, I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











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http://www.quickiebuilders.org






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* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Bruce Crain
 

Thank ya' cousin. Ah im much abliged fer da schoolin' on the foniks stuff. Rectom ah'll tryer fer sho'!
Bruce

-- "Kevin Fortin" <kfortin@...> wrote:


Bruce,

I did check the mixture travel a week or so before flight and it was good so
I am thinking it is OK.

Kevin

BTW Wit ur werld travls I wud think that U wud no how 2 spel egekated....
Huked on foniks werkd fer me!!! (I tuk the suthren verzn and I wud rekomend
that fer U, bein from Oklehmer.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
jcrain2@...
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:36 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: N275CH First Flight Q200



Denver is at 5000' msl. Leaning out is a must especially in hot weather. I
don't think just leaning out a bit is going to cause what you described. Is
the mixture cable moving to full rich when the mixture is full forward?
I could be wrong. I have been before. ;o)
Bruce



......Question for you and the guys (this question tickled by Bruce Crain):
If my mixture was a bit short of full rich, would it cause the engine to
spin down smoothly, or just cause it to run very erratically? My engine spun
down as smooth as if you pulled the throttle back.



___________________________________________________________________
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Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links










Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links






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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Kevin Fortin <kfortin@...>
 

Mark,

That sparks some interesting testing ideas. Let me do a bit of math and see
what kind of vacuum 120/140 mph (in Denver) represents, then I can guess if
I can make a "constant vacuum" supply that I can use on the ramp for
testing.....Interesting


Kevin



kevin:
Can you rig up a vacumn to the gas filler to try to replicate the
apparent lose of fuel flow? measure the vacumn?

Mark

Kevin Fortin wrote:


Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something
here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it
was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term
loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force.
It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward
facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air
rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the
gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely
could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of
a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after
takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a
separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before
my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it,
but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin



-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that

has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting.
The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all
leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,

but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf

Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other
firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can
for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined
up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan
as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at
this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan
B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a
few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get
her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's
say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without

any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for
a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started
pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson

bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn,
I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran
the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting
down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the
compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch,
and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it
before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet
an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links











Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org




---------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Sam Hoskins <shoskins@...>
 

Kevin,

This phenomena of the low pressure air leaking into the fuel system is well
documented. In fact, that was my first thought when I read your e-mail.
Naturally all the gascolator foes come out of the woodwork, but if you have
a leaky gas cap you will have trouble.

It happened to me, to Art Jewett, and to others. I made a mention of it on
my modifications page: http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/modifications.html

Sam

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html







_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Kevin Fortin
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:58 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems




Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it, but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that
has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting. The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,
but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without
any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson
bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn, I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude Children's Research
Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'
http://us.click.yahoo.com/6iY7fA/5WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/SyTolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links











Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org






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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin Fortin <kfortin@...>
 

Bruce,

I did check the mixture travel a week or so before flight and it was good so
I am thinking it is OK.

Kevin

BTW Wit ur werld travls I wud think that U wud no how 2 spel egekated....
Huked on foniks werkd fer me!!! (I tuk the suthren verzn and I wud rekomend
that fer U, bein from Oklehmer.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
jcrain2@...
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:36 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: N275CH First Flight Q200



Denver is at 5000' msl. Leaning out is a must especially in hot weather. I
don't think just leaning out a bit is going to cause what you described. Is
the mixture cable moving to full rich when the mixture is full forward?
I could be wrong. I have been before. ;o)
Bruce



......Question for you and the guys (this question tickled by Bruce Crain):
If my mixture was a bit short of full rich, would it cause the engine to
spin down smoothly, or just cause it to run very erratically? My engine spun
down as smooth as if you pulled the throttle back.



___________________________________________________________________
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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Mark/Pat Pearson/Pound <wlkabout@...>
 

kevin:
Can you rig up a vacumn to the gas filler to try to replicate the
apparent lose of fuel flow? measure the vacumn?

Mark

Kevin Fortin wrote:


Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something
here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it
was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term
loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force.
It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward
facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air
rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the
gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely
could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of
a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after
takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a
separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before
my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it,
but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin



-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that

has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting.
The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all
leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,

but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf

Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other
firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can
for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined
up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan
as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at
this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan
B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a
few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get
her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's
say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without

any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for
a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started
pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson

bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn,
I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran
the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting
down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the
compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch,
and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it
before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet
an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











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Re: Grass strip!!

Bruce Crain
 

Ah am a highly traveled individual. Edycated to!
Bruce

-- "Kevin Fortin" <kfortin@...> wrote:


Bruce

Darn, I thought a grass strip a Hawaiian lady in a gentleman's club.

Man, you learn all sorts of things on the list!

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
jcrain2@...
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:30 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Grass strip!!



I landed N96BJ on a 2500' grass strip on Sunday with plenty of runway
remaining. Only minimal braking required. I actually had to add power to
get to the end where the EAA meeting was held. During the take off roll I
had plenty of runway still under me after I was in the air. I am excited
that it did so well! I feel like I have lots more options now.
The tri gear conversion was a big factor in the landing and take off.
Directional control problems are non-existent. I don't have to worry about
the tail breaking on rough terrain or bouncing to an out of control
situation. I do have the large nose gear so it will not break like the
earlier ones.
I just can't say enough about the tri gear. I know I am slower than Jim and
Sammy and lots of other Q200s but that just means I will get there maybe 10
minutes later on a cross country leg.

Bruce

___________________________________________________________________
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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Bruce Crain
 

Denver is at 5000' msl. Leaning out is a must especially in hot weather. I don't think just leaning out a bit is going to cause what you described. Is the mixture cable moving to full rich when the mixture is full forward?
I could be wrong. I have been before. ;o)
Bruce



......Question for you and the guys (this question tickled by Bruce Crain):
If my mixture was a bit short of full rich, would it cause the engine to
spin down smoothly, or just cause it to run very erratically? My engine spun
down as smooth as if you pulled the throttle back.



___________________________________________________________________
Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand.
Now includes pop-up blocker!
Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!
Re: Grass strip!!

Kevin Fortin <kfortin@...>
 

Bruce

Darn, I thought a grass strip a Hawaiian lady in a gentleman's club.

Man, you learn all sorts of things on the list!

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
jcrain2@...
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:30 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Grass strip!!



I landed N96BJ on a 2500' grass strip on Sunday with plenty of runway
remaining. Only minimal braking required. I actually had to add power to
get to the end where the EAA meeting was held. During the take off roll I
had plenty of runway still under me after I was in the air. I am excited
that it did so well! I feel like I have lots more options now.
The tri gear conversion was a big factor in the landing and take off.
Directional control problems are non-existent. I don't have to worry about
the tail breaking on rough terrain or bouncing to an out of control
situation. I do have the large nose gear so it will not break like the
earlier ones.
I just can't say enough about the tri gear. I know I am slower than Jim and
Sammy and lots of other Q200s but that just means I will get there maybe 10
minutes later on a cross country leg.

Bruce

___________________________________________________________________
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Grass strip!!

Bruce Crain
 

I landed N96BJ on a 2500' grass strip on Sunday with plenty of runway remaining. Only minimal braking required. I actually had to add power to get to the end where the EAA meeting was held. During the take off roll I had plenty of runway still under me after I was in the air. I am excited that it did so well! I feel like I have lots more options now.
The tri gear conversion was a big factor in the landing and take off. Directional control problems are non-existent. I don't have to worry about the tail breaking on rough terrain or bouncing to an out of control situation. I do have the large nose gear so it will not break like the earlier ones.
I just can't say enough about the tri gear. I know I am slower than Jim and Sammy and lots of other Q200s but that just means I will get there maybe 10 minutes later on a cross country leg.

Bruce

___________________________________________________________________
Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand.
Now includes pop-up blocker!
Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!
Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin Fortin <kfortin@...>
 

Jim,

Thanks for your response. Answers to your questions below:

Question "3" The feed line is about 9" to 10" and looks like it is best path
or damn close to it. I don't think you could shorten it more than 1 inch if
you had to.

Quetsion "4" Filters clean (also new)

Question "6" What does the carb heat have to do with fuel? Obviously
something I don't understand here.

Question "7" I still don't know.

Last question: In Denver.

......Question for you and the guys (this question tickled by Bruce Crain):
If my mixture was a bit short of full rich, would it cause the engine to
spin down smoothly, or just cause it to run very erratically? My engine spun
down as smooth as if you pulled the throttle back.

Thanks again for you help,

Kevin


Kevin,

Thanks for the input. It will help solve your problem.


Some answers to Jim's questions:

Gascolator: NO ******** Good

Heat sleeve: YES ******* Good.

Fuel line between carb and oil tank: NO******* OK where does th
efuel line come though the firewall? Is it the shortest run possible?

Aux tank: NO. Straight from header to carb.******* Filters clean?

Fuel on board: About 15 gallons*******OK

Fuel vent: Checked before and after flight. Not hard plugged but who
knows if fuel plugged it on this flight******* This can definetely
cause the problem you described. It happened to me once. Loss of
fuel flow is no fun. I had filled the main, header and aux tank and
mistakenly flipped the aux switch ON before takeoff, thus putting
fuel overboard via the vent tube. NOT GOOD! Carb heat on and off
contineously let me get it back to the runway.

Flow check header tank in flight position: Not in flight position
but it did flow like a racehorse with the tail on the ground. (I
rechecked this as soon as I got it back to the hangar.)

Actual flow I don't know.************There is a minimum FAA
requirement. Bob F correct me if I'm wrong but I think its 15%
greater than the fuel burn for the engine at full power. ie, 9.5 x
15% or 10.9 per hour (gravity flow with fuel pump off). The facet
pump should deliver about 30 gph to the carburator. This is
typically checked with the tail off, fuselage on the mains and rear
on the floor. You might want to do this check prior to another
flight.

Carb Ice: Not Likely at 65 F and dew point about 24F (-4 C on ATIS
before flight).********OK

Heat soak: Now I think that is the question. I did 3 fast taxis with
slow taxis back to the start. Typically, I had done fast taxis back
and forth and I had never seen the oil temp up to 190. I chalked the
higher temp up to the slow taxis and thought it would drop when I
got some air through the engine. I just might have been late and
wrong on that call). Please note it is a long way to the runway and
I was sitting a bit waiting for other aircraft to clear before I was
allowed my fast taxis.*********OK since removing my gascolator I've
been in 100+ weather at OSHKOSH and other places taxiing for
extended time and did not have that problem. It only happened to me
with the gascolator.


Where are you located Kevin?

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On
Behalf Of
Jim Patillo
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 10:36 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: N275CH First Flight Q200




Kevin,

Congratulations you're still alive to tell the story. Some have
not
been so lucky.

Do you have a gascolator? Do you have fuel lines running between
the
carb and oil tank? Do you have heat sleeve over the fuel lines? Do
you have an aux tank? How much fuel did you have on board? Are you
sure your ram air to header was free and clear and not blocked by
fuel or some foreign matter? Was the header fuel flowed at the
carb
in flight position (tail off, fuselage on the mains and split line
on
the deck)prior to flight? If so what was the flow in gallons per
hour? Could you have had carb ice? Did you allow the engine to
heat
soak prior to flight?

A lot of 0200 engines are much harder to turn over when they are
hot. What you experienced may be normal especially if your temps
were
very high. Are you around anyone that can verify this condition?

Don't let this mishap deter you. I had a vapor lock at 60 hours
and the engine quit at about 150' off the ground in front of the
tower. I was able to get it around the pattern just as you did
by "pumping the throttle". I discovered the gascolator caused a
vapor
lock, I shit canned it and the rest is history.

Regards,

Jim Patillo

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Kevin Fortin" <kfortin@p...> wrote:
Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other
firsts as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you
can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I
lined up on
the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per
plan
as I
could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet
the
engine
acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared
emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was
obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B, I
hit
the
throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to
get
her back
in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's
say
the
approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground
without
any
bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out
for a
bit and
then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation
got the
better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling a bit to
the
right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake
(Johnson bar)
then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway.
Damn, I
was just
thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment,
all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had
gotten
hot enough
that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and
ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff
oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After
shutting
down, when
I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed
the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the
compression "resistance" and
found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing what to do
I
figured
lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and the engine
had
cooled
and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I
bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin












Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links





Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links
N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Kevin Fortin <kfortin@...>
 

Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it, but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that
has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting. The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,
but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without
any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson
bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn, I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

rbarbour27@...
 

Sam - I was on that flight with Art Jewett in Springfield, MO. As I remember
it, while Art was fueling his plane he was talking to the fuel truck driver
and got distracted. He realized he was running a little late so he just handed
the fuel truck driver the hose and quickly latched the gas access door. I
climbed in and off we went. We were at about 100 feet altitude and the engine
just seemed to lose RPM. Art radioed a MAYDAY and the tower operator sounded
the alarm. Art told the tower he was going to do a 180 and land downwind. We
finally made it back to the airport and the tower operator radioed that he was
about 30 seconds from ordering a "foaming of the runway". We taxied back to
the hangar and began, removed the cowl and started looking for any cause for
the problem. Finally, Art opened the gas door and the cap for this filler tube
was laying right along side the opened gas tube. Events like this sure take
one's mind off "hanky-panky." Just thought I'd share that event with the
brothers that illustrates what can happen when you lose ram air pressure in the
fuel system.

Dick Barbour
Rogers, AR.
Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

One Sky Dog
 

In a message dated 4/18/2005 6:59:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
kfortin@... writes:

Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after takeoff.




Kevin,
Head pressure of water is apx .5 psi per foot. With gas which is apx 75% as
dense as water the pressure is apx .375 psi per foot for a total of 1.125
psi.fuel pressure or .0764 inches of mercury.

Remember 14.7 psi is 33.9 FEET of water!!!

Depending on where your filler is you definitely could pull your fuel
pressure to zero.

When I first got my plane the cabin flow was in the tail exit vent and out
the side inlet vents.

Excellent handling of the sensory overload.

Regards,

One Sky Dog
Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
 

My 0-200A is way hard to turn when it's hot. That's not your problem.

A couple other questions that haven't been asked so far...
Do you have a vented fuel cap? Yes = bad. I blew up a balloon and attached it to the fuel vent ram air line. It stayed full over night so I got no leak. May try that, especially if you have 1/4" fuel line, you need the ram air pressure.

Do you have any restrictions in your fuel line like a GPH sensor?
Standard MA3 SPA carb?
Gravity feed fuel?
Metal fuel line?

If you can do that well under these conditions you'll do great when the engine is running!
Keep at it!
Mike Q-200 N3QP



Kevin Fortin wrote:

Hey guys,


Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other firsts as
well:


First engine malfunction


First declared emergency


First time in the dirt (mud)


All this took 60 or so seconds.


The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.


In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined up on
the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan as I
could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the engine
acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down, declared
emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this point was
obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B, I hit the
throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get her back
in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's say the
approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without any
bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for a bit and
then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the situation got the
better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson bar)
then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn, I was just
thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the embarrassment,
all was OK.


Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot enough
that fuel was boiling in the carb.

Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting down, when
I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I quickly removed
the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the compression "resistance" and
found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing what to do I figured
lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and the engine had cooled
and it turned as light as I had known it before.


Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet an
engine teardown is in my future.


Kevin
Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Jim Patillo
 

Kevin,

Phil makes a good point. Do you have a newly rebuilt engine?

Brad's 0200 (Tom Moores airplane) has three or four hundered hours
on it and when Brad shuts down, his prop is hard to turn until it
cools.

Jim P.
--- In Q-LIST@..., britmcman@a... wrote:
Kevin:

Engines also seize for heat related tight fit conditions. Some of
these are
piston diameter to cylinder wall diameter not sufficient, piston
ring gap not
sufficient ( piston ring can grow shut. Further expansion causes
the ring to
bind against the cylinder wall and results in an engine seize),
and plain
bearings can also seize. Some of these can self heal if
temperatures go down,
others cause damage.

Cheers,

Phil Lankford
N870BM
Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Jim Patillo
 

Kevin,

Thanks for the input. It will help solve your problem.


Some answers to Jim's questions:

Gascolator: NO ******** Good

Heat sleeve: YES ******* Good.

Fuel line between carb and oil tank: NO******* OK where does th
efuel line come though the firewall? Is it the shortest run possible?

Aux tank: NO. Straight from header to carb.******* Filters clean?

Fuel on board: About 15 gallons*******OK

Fuel vent: Checked before and after flight. Not hard plugged but who
knows if fuel plugged it on this flight******* This can definetely
cause the problem you described. It happened to me once. Loss of
fuel flow is no fun. I had filled the main, header and aux tank and
mistakenly flipped the aux switch ON before takeoff, thus putting
fuel overboard via the vent tube. NOT GOOD! Carb heat on and off
contineously let me get it back to the runway.

Flow check header tank in flight position: Not in flight position
but it did flow like a racehorse with the tail on the ground. (I
rechecked this as soon as I got it back to the hangar.)

Actual flow I don't know.************There is a minimum FAA
requirement. Bob F correct me if I'm wrong but I think its 15%
greater than the fuel burn for the engine at full power. ie, 9.5 x
15% or 10.9 per hour (gravity flow with fuel pump off). The facet
pump should deliver about 30 gph to the carburator. This is
typically checked with the tail off, fuselage on the mains and rear
on the floor. You might want to do this check prior to another
flight.

Carb Ice: Not Likely at 65 F and dew point about 24F (-4 C on ATIS
before flight).********OK

Heat soak: Now I think that is the question. I did 3 fast taxis with
slow taxis back to the start. Typically, I had done fast taxis back
and forth and I had never seen the oil temp up to 190. I chalked the
higher temp up to the slow taxis and thought it would drop when I
got some air through the engine. I just might have been late and
wrong on that call). Please note it is a long way to the runway and
I was sitting a bit waiting for other aircraft to clear before I was
allowed my fast taxis.*********OK since removing my gascolator I've
been in 100+ weather at OSHKOSH and other places taxiing for
extended time and did not have that problem. It only happened to me
with the gascolator.


Where are you located Kevin?

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On
Behalf Of
Jim Patillo
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 10:36 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: N275CH First Flight Q200




Kevin,

Congratulations you're still alive to tell the story. Some have
not
been so lucky.

Do you have a gascolator? Do you have fuel lines running between
the
carb and oil tank? Do you have heat sleeve over the fuel lines? Do
you have an aux tank? How much fuel did you have on board? Are you
sure your ram air to header was free and clear and not blocked by
fuel or some foreign matter? Was the header fuel flowed at the
carb
in flight position (tail off, fuselage on the mains and split line
on
the deck)prior to flight? If so what was the flow in gallons per
hour? Could you have had carb ice? Did you allow the engine to
heat
soak prior to flight?

A lot of 0200 engines are much harder to turn over when they are
hot. What you experienced may be normal especially if your temps
were
very high. Are you around anyone that can verify this condition?

Don't let this mishap deter you. I had a vapor lock at 60 hours
and the engine quit at about 150' off the ground in front of the
tower. I was able to get it around the pattern just as you did
by "pumping the throttle". I discovered the gascolator caused a
vapor
lock, I shit canned it and the rest is history.

Regards,

Jim Patillo

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Kevin Fortin" <kfortin@p...> wrote:
Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other
firsts as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you
can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I
lined up on
the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per
plan
as I
could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet
the
engine
acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared
emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was
obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B, I
hit
the
throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to
get
her back
in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's
say
the
approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground
without
any
bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out
for a
bit and
then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation
got the
better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling a bit to
the
right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake
(Johnson bar)
then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway.
Damn, I
was just
thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment,
all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had
gotten
hot enough
that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and
ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff
oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After
shutting
down, when
I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed
the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the
compression "resistance" and
found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing what to do
I
figured
lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and the engine
had
cooled
and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I
bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin












Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

britmcman99
 

Kevin:

Engines also seize for heat related tight fit conditions. Some of these are
piston diameter to cylinder wall diameter not sufficient, piston ring gap not
sufficient ( piston ring can grow shut. Further expansion causes the ring to
bind against the cylinder wall and results in an engine seize), and plain
bearings can also seize. Some of these can self heal if temperatures go down,
others cause damage.

Cheers,

Phil Lankford
N870BM
35521 - 35540 of 55468