Date   

Re: Tandem Wing Spring Fling - Who's Coming?

Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@...>
 

We will be there. Plan on flying the Musketeer.
Jerry & Nancy

Sam Hoskins wrote:

Can you believe it? It's just a few weeks till the second annual Tandem Wing Spring Fling! Read all about it here:
http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html

I'm trying to get an idea of the magnitude of this event. Please let me know if you planning to attend, or even if you MIGHT make it.

My plane is back in the air (but further work has stalled, as my folks are a little under the weather). You can take a look at my new wheelpants and tell me if you think it was worth the effort.

And remember, the Slick magneto and MA3-SPA carb seminars will be very informative.

Hope to see you there!

Sam Hoskins
Murphysboro, IL
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com









Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links








Re: Q-1 plans and airfoil templates

HawkiDoug <hawkidoug@...>
 

Larry, go to the QBA web site and go to Resources and Plans. There is a link to the CD for sale.

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974

----- Original Message -----
From: "L Koutz" <koutzl@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST]Q-1 plans and airfoil templates



I have a friend looking for Q-1 plans and templates. Isn't someone selling a CD of this?

Larry



Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links







Re: Tandem Wing Spring Fling - Who's Coming?

Keith L WeL Welsh <welshq1@...>
 

Hi Sam:

I plan to be there as well. Just not sure of the exact plan yet.
Hopin fer good wx.

Keith Welsh

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:03:04 -0000 "Sam Hoskins" <shoskins@...>
writes:



Can you believe it? It's just a few weeks till the second annual
Tandem Wing Spring Fling! Read all about it here:
http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html

I'm trying to get an idea of the magnitude of this event. Please
let
me know if you planning to attend, or even if you MIGHT make it.

My plane is back in the air (but further work has stalled, as my
folks are a little under the weather). You can take a look at my
new
wheelpants and tell me if you think it was worth the effort.

And remember, the Slick magneto and MA3-SPA carb seminars will be
very informative.

Hope to see you there!

Sam Hoskins
Murphysboro, IL
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com








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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Sam Hoskins <shoskins@...>
 

Kevin,

You can expect your vent system to have very minor leaks. It would not be
expected to hold pressure over a long period of time. However, you want to
ensure there is more air entering the vent system than there is air leaving
it. Here is how I test mine, crude, but effective.

Crawl under the aircraft and wipe your ram-air vent clean with a towel. Put
your mouth over the tube and blow hard. You will be surprised at the volume
needed to pressurize the system. Quickly put your finger over the vent
tube, hold for 5 or 10 seconds, then release.

When you let go, you should feel air rushing back out of the vent. If you
do, you are ok.

Now, simulate the leak condition that you had and do the experiment again to
check the difference.

Good Luck,

Sam

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html







_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
rbarbour27@...
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 11:51 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems



Sam - I was on that flight with Art Jewett in Springfield, MO. As I
remember
it, while Art was fueling his plane he was talking to the fuel truck driver
and got distracted. He realized he was running a little late so he just
handed
the fuel truck driver the hose and quickly latched the gas access door. I
climbed in and off we went. We were at about 100 feet altitude and the
engine
just seemed to lose RPM. Art radioed a MAYDAY and the tower operator
sounded
the alarm. Art told the tower he was going to do a 180 and land downwind.
We
finally made it back to the airport and the tower operator radioed that he
was
about 30 seconds from ordering a "foaming of the runway". We taxied back to

the hangar and began, removed the cowl and started looking for any cause for

the problem. Finally, Art opened the gas door and the cap for this filler
tube
was laying right along side the opened gas tube. Events like this sure take

one's mind off "hanky-panky." Just thought I'd share that event with the
brothers that illustrates what can happen when you lose ram air pressure in
the
fuel system.

Dick Barbour
Rogers, AR.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org






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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

Jim
When the fuel vent is blocked the carb fuel bowl level will be lowered and cause the engine to run lean.Carb heat could be acting like a choke by reducing ram air inflow, which would reduce the pressure on the dry side of the carb and cause it to suck more fuel. Carb heat or choke would help to enrich the mixture.
IMO just another reason to fit a short vent in top of the header.
Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Patillo
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 12:42 AM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: N275CH First Flight Q200




Kevin,

After thinking about it, I mis-stated what happened when my vent line
was full of fuel, loosing ram pressure and using the carb heat.

When I had the problem with the fuel vent line full of gas because of
acidently turning on the aux switch with full main header and aux, I
PULLED THE CARB HEAT ON AND THE ENGINE WOULD RUN. WHEN I PUSHED THE
CARB HEAT OFF THE ENGINE WOULD QUIT. Sorry for the confusion. I think
the carb heat was acting as a choke or something to get the fuel to
flow to the carb. I don't know what else the carb heat on would have
done.

Jim P.



--- In Q-LIST@..., "Kevin Fortin" <kfortin@p...> wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Thanks for your response. Answers to your questions below:
>
> Question "3" The feed line is about 9" to 10" and looks like it is
best path
> or damn close to it. I don't think you could shorten it more than 1
inch if
> you had to.
>
> Quetsion "4" Filters clean (also new)
>
> Question "6" What does the carb heat have to do with fuel?
Obviously
> something I don't understand here.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org





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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

Dick as well as fitting a short up - facing vent I have an electric in - line fuel pump. It is important to choose a pump that will free flow when switched off.I am using FuelFlow brand which is good for up to 32 gal/hr and 5 psi.It cost AUD80 and is good for peace of mind.
Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: rbarbour27@...
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems


Sam - I was on that flight with Art Jewett in Springfield, MO. As I remember
it, while Art was fueling his plane he was talking to the fuel truck driver
and got distracted. He realized he was running a little late so he just handed
the fuel truck driver the hose and quickly latched the gas access door. I
climbed in and off we went. We were at about 100 feet altitude and the engine
just seemed to lose RPM. Art radioed a MAYDAY and the tower operator sounded
the alarm. Art told the tower he was going to do a 180 and land downwind. We
finally made it back to the airport and the tower operator radioed that he was
about 30 seconds from ordering a "foaming of the runway". We taxied back to
the hangar and began, removed the cowl and started looking for any cause for
the problem. Finally, Art opened the gas door and the cap for this filler tube
was laying right along side the opened gas tube. Events like this sure take
one's mind off "hanky-panky." Just thought I'd share that event with the
brothers that illustrates what can happen when you lose ram air pressure in the
fuel system.

Dick Barbour
Rogers, AR.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org





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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Jim Patillo
 

Thanks Mike,

Kevin, I knew someone had the fuel flow info and Mike Dwyer is right
about checking the fuel system for leaks. A blown up baloon on the
vent tube works well to detect leaks.

Jim P


--- In Q-LIST@..., Mike Perry <dmperry1012@c...> wrote:
Jim: The fuel flow requirement for gravity feed systems is 150%
greater
than "Takeoff fuel consumption of the engine." (FAR 23.995) (my
source is
old, may be renumbered, but I doubt the requirement changed)

Kevin: I suggest you get Tony Bingelis' Book, "Firewall Forward"
and read
the section on fuel systems, esp. the chapter "Fuel Flow Test."
Tony talks
about why you need to do the test in the max climb attitude, as
well as
describing details of how to do the test.

The fuel pressure in all Q2/Q200s is pretty low -- with the header
tank
fuel low the pressure may be less than 0.5 psi. Any restriction to
flow
will be more dramatic with low pressure.

Peter Harris and others have commented on the effects of pressure
changes
in the tank, due to fuel vent, fuel cap or other problems.

Mike Perry

At 04:55 PM 4/18/2005 +0000, Kevin and Jim Patillo wrote:


[snip]



Flow check header tank in flight position: Not in flight position
but it did flow like a racehorse with the tail on the ground. (I
rechecked this as soon as I got it back to the hangar.)

Actual flow I don't know.************There is a minimum FAA
requirement. Bob F correct me if I'm wrong but I think its 15%
greater than the fuel burn for the engine at full power. ie, 9.5 x
15% or 10.9 per hour (gravity flow with fuel pump off). The facet
pump should deliver about 30 gph to the carburator. This is
typically checked with the tail off, fuselage on the mains and rear
on the floor. You might want to do this check prior to another
flight.



Re: Q-1 plans and airfoil templates

L Koutz <koutzl@...>
 

I have a friend looking for Q-1 plans and templates. Isn't someone selling a CD of this?

Larry


Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

L Koutz <koutzl@...>
 

I changed over and added a "boost pump". Too many close calls like yours!

I also had a fuel starvation engine "hiccup" probably caused by a cracked main fuel filler cap.

Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Fortin" <kfortin@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 11:03 PM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems




Sam and gang,

I have to admit, thinking that I scared the hell out of myself because I
didn't tighten the gas cap properly is a bit annoying but at this point,
this line of thinking is making the most sense. If you or anyone has a way
to test this I would appreciate it.

Also, any opinions on a boost pump to give a bit more margin would be
appreciated.

I still may have some engine problems that I want to get to, but I feel sure
that my excitement was fuel related.

Note....I really don't want to do a repeat performance. I'm sure the tower
would appreciate it too.

Kevin

Kevin,

This phenomena of the low pressure air leaking into the fuel system is well
documented. In fact, that was my first thought when I read your e-mail.
Naturally all the gascolator foes come out of the woodwork, but if you have
a leaky gas cap you will have trouble.

It happened to me, to Art Jewett, and to others. I made a mention of it on
my modifications page: http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/modifications.html

Sam

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html







Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Mike Perry <dmperry1012@...>
 

Jim: The fuel flow requirement for gravity feed systems is 150% greater
than "Takeoff fuel consumption of the engine." (FAR 23.995) (my source is
old, may be renumbered, but I doubt the requirement changed)

Kevin: I suggest you get Tony Bingelis' Book, "Firewall Forward" and read
the section on fuel systems, esp. the chapter "Fuel Flow Test." Tony talks
about why you need to do the test in the max climb attitude, as well as
describing details of how to do the test.

The fuel pressure in all Q2/Q200s is pretty low -- with the header tank
fuel low the pressure may be less than 0.5 psi. Any restriction to flow
will be more dramatic with low pressure.

Peter Harris and others have commented on the effects of pressure changes
in the tank, due to fuel vent, fuel cap or other problems.

Mike Perry

At 04:55 PM 4/18/2005 +0000, Kevin and Jim Patillo wrote:


[snip]



Flow check header tank in flight position: Not in flight position
but it did flow like a racehorse with the tail on the ground. (I
rechecked this as soon as I got it back to the hangar.)

Actual flow I don't know.************There is a minimum FAA
requirement. Bob F correct me if I'm wrong but I think its 15%
greater than the fuel burn for the engine at full power. ie, 9.5 x
15% or 10.9 per hour (gravity flow with fuel pump off). The facet
pump should deliver about 30 gph to the carburator. This is
typically checked with the tail off, fuselage on the mains and rear
on the floor. You might want to do this check prior to another
flight.


[Fwd: [Dragonflylist] Mountain States Canard Wing Fly-In April 29-31]

Sam Kittle
 

Weather looks like it is going to cooperate quite nicely again this year for the Mountain States Canard Wing Fly-In and Engine Show in two weeks.

http://www.MountainStatesFly-In.com/

We have NO hangar as of this minute, but that could change if we (and the FBO) get lucky between now and the event.

If you are planning to drive in, bring extra folding chairs for those who are flying in, and something to keep the sun off your noggin in case we are outside all day. We may very well be meeting on the tarmac on Saturday.

Since we are now on the east side of the runway, we do not have as easy access to the convenience store next to the FBO like last year, so bring a cooler.

Fuel discounts are in effect for attendees, and tiedown fees are waived if you purchase fuel.

Almanac says:
95% chance of a Warm day (60*F - 90*F) Average High is 85*F, Average Low 65*F
Mostly Sunny expected
Average wind 7mph, gusting to 21mph max

I look forward to seeing all of you again.

I would appreciate if someone would forward this to the Q-List and Corvair List. Thanks.

Don Stewart








Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Mark/Pat Pearson/Pound <wlkabout@...>
 

Kevin:
How big of a syringe can you find? You don't really need to know
how much the arrangement as is will/might generate. You need to know if
doing so can recreate your problem.

Kevin Fortin wrote:



Mark,

That sparks some interesting testing ideas. Let me do a bit of math
and see
what kind of vacuum 120/140 mph (in Denver) represents, then I can
guess if
I can make a "constant vacuum" supply that I can use on the ramp for
testing.....Interesting


Kevin



kevin:
Can you rig up a vacumn to the gas filler to try to replicate the
apparent lose of fuel flow? measure the vacumn?

Mark

Kevin Fortin wrote:


Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something
here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that
it
was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term
loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force.
It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward
facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air
rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the
gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it
absolutely
could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head"
of
a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after
takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a
separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed
before
my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do
it,
but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin



-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing
that

has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting.
The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize
the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't
have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all
leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on
engines,

but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of
your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On
Behalf

Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other
firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can
for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined
up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per
plan
as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet
the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at
this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan
B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a
few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get
her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's
say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground
without

any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out
for
a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started
pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake
(Johnson

bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway.
Damn,
I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten
hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran
the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting
down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the
compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not
knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch,
and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it
before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet
an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











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Yahoo! Groups Links









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http://www.quickiebuilders.org




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Service.


Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Kevin Fortin <kfortin@...>
 

Sam and gang,

I have to admit, thinking that I scared the hell out of myself because I
didn't tighten the gas cap properly is a bit annoying but at this point,
this line of thinking is making the most sense. If you or anyone has a way
to test this I would appreciate it.

Also, any opinions on a boost pump to give a bit more margin would be
appreciated.

I still may have some engine problems that I want to get to, but I feel sure
that my excitement was fuel related.

Note....I really don't want to do a repeat performance. I'm sure the tower
would appreciate it too.

Kevin

Kevin,

This phenomena of the low pressure air leaking into the fuel system is well
documented. In fact, that was my first thought when I read your e-mail.
Naturally all the gascolator foes come out of the woodwork, but if you have
a leaky gas cap you will have trouble.

It happened to me, to Art Jewett, and to others. I made a mention of it on
my modifications page: http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/modifications.html

Sam

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html







_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Kevin Fortin
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:58 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems




Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it, but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that
has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting. The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,
but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without
any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson
bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn, I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Bruce Crain
 

Thank ya' cousin. Ah im much abliged fer da schoolin' on the foniks stuff. Rectom ah'll tryer fer sho'!
Bruce

-- "Kevin Fortin" <kfortin@...> wrote:


Bruce,

I did check the mixture travel a week or so before flight and it was good so
I am thinking it is OK.

Kevin

BTW Wit ur werld travls I wud think that U wud no how 2 spel egekated....
Huked on foniks werkd fer me!!! (I tuk the suthren verzn and I wud rekomend
that fer U, bein from Oklehmer.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
jcrain2@...
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:36 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: N275CH First Flight Q200



Denver is at 5000' msl. Leaning out is a must especially in hot weather. I
don't think just leaning out a bit is going to cause what you described. Is
the mixture cable moving to full rich when the mixture is full forward?
I could be wrong. I have been before. ;o)
Bruce



......Question for you and the guys (this question tickled by Bruce Crain):
If my mixture was a bit short of full rich, would it cause the engine to
spin down smoothly, or just cause it to run very erratically? My engine spun
down as smooth as if you pulled the throttle back.



___________________________________________________________________
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http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links










Quickie Builders Association WEB site
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Yahoo! Groups Links






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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Kevin Fortin <kfortin@...>
 

Mark,

That sparks some interesting testing ideas. Let me do a bit of math and see
what kind of vacuum 120/140 mph (in Denver) represents, then I can guess if
I can make a "constant vacuum" supply that I can use on the ramp for
testing.....Interesting


Kevin



kevin:
Can you rig up a vacumn to the gas filler to try to replicate the
apparent lose of fuel flow? measure the vacumn?

Mark

Kevin Fortin wrote:


Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something
here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it
was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term
loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force.
It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward
facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air
rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the
gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely
could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of
a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after
takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a
separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before
my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it,
but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin



-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that

has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting.
The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all
leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,

but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf

Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other
firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can
for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined
up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan
as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at
this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan
B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a
few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get
her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's
say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without

any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for
a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started
pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson

bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn,
I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran
the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting
down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the
compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch,
and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it
before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet
an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

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http://www.quickiebuilders.org


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http://www.quickiebuilders.org




---------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/

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Service.






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Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Sam Hoskins <shoskins@...>
 

Kevin,

This phenomena of the low pressure air leaking into the fuel system is well
documented. In fact, that was my first thought when I read your e-mail.
Naturally all the gascolator foes come out of the woodwork, but if you have
a leaky gas cap you will have trouble.

It happened to me, to Art Jewett, and to others. I made a mention of it on
my modifications page: http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/modifications.html

Sam

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html







_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Kevin Fortin
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:58 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems




Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it, but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that
has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting. The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,
but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without
any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson
bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn, I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude Children's Research
Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'
http://us.click.yahoo.com/6iY7fA/5WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/SyTolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links











Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org






_____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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<mailto:Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...?subject=Unsubscribe>

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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.


Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin Fortin <kfortin@...>
 

Bruce,

I did check the mixture travel a week or so before flight and it was good so
I am thinking it is OK.

Kevin

BTW Wit ur werld travls I wud think that U wud no how 2 spel egekated....
Huked on foniks werkd fer me!!! (I tuk the suthren verzn and I wud rekomend
that fer U, bein from Oklehmer.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
jcrain2@...
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:36 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: N275CH First Flight Q200



Denver is at 5000' msl. Leaning out is a must especially in hot weather. I
don't think just leaning out a bit is going to cause what you described. Is
the mixture cable moving to full rich when the mixture is full forward?
I could be wrong. I have been before. ;o)
Bruce



......Question for you and the guys (this question tickled by Bruce Crain):
If my mixture was a bit short of full rich, would it cause the engine to
spin down smoothly, or just cause it to run very erratically? My engine spun
down as smooth as if you pulled the throttle back.



___________________________________________________________________
Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand.
Now includes pop-up blocker!
Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!




Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

Mark/Pat Pearson/Pound <wlkabout@...>
 

kevin:
Can you rig up a vacumn to the gas filler to try to replicate the
apparent lose of fuel flow? measure the vacumn?

Mark

Kevin Fortin wrote:


Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something
here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it
was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term
loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force.
It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward
facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air
rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the
gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely
could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of
a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after
takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a
separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before
my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it,
but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin



-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that

has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting.
The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all
leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,

but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf

Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other
firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can
for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined
up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan
as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at
this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan
B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a
few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get
her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's
say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without

any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for
a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started
pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson

bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn,
I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran
the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting
down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the
compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch,
and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it
before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet
an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links











Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org




---------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.


Re: Grass strip!!

Bruce Crain
 

Ah am a highly traveled individual. Edycated to!
Bruce

-- "Kevin Fortin" <kfortin@...> wrote:


Bruce

Darn, I thought a grass strip a Hawaiian lady in a gentleman's club.

Man, you learn all sorts of things on the list!

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
jcrain2@...
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:30 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Grass strip!!



I landed N96BJ on a 2500' grass strip on Sunday with plenty of runway
remaining. Only minimal braking required. I actually had to add power to
get to the end where the EAA meeting was held. During the take off roll I
had plenty of runway still under me after I was in the air. I am excited
that it did so well! I feel like I have lots more options now.
The tri gear conversion was a big factor in the landing and take off.
Directional control problems are non-existent. I don't have to worry about
the tail breaking on rough terrain or bouncing to an out of control
situation. I do have the large nose gear so it will not break like the
earlier ones.
I just can't say enough about the tri gear. I know I am slower than Jim and
Sammy and lots of other Q200s but that just means I will get there maybe 10
minutes later on a cross country leg.

Bruce

___________________________________________________________________
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Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!




Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links










Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links






___________________________________________________________________
Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand.
Now includes pop-up blocker!
Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!


Re: N275CH First Flight Q200

Bruce Crain
 

Denver is at 5000' msl. Leaning out is a must especially in hot weather. I don't think just leaning out a bit is going to cause what you described. Is the mixture cable moving to full rich when the mixture is full forward?
I could be wrong. I have been before. ;o)
Bruce



......Question for you and the guys (this question tickled by Bruce Crain):
If my mixture was a bit short of full rich, would it cause the engine to
spin down smoothly, or just cause it to run very erratically? My engine spun
down as smooth as if you pulled the throttle back.



___________________________________________________________________
Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand.
Now includes pop-up blocker!
Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!