Date   

Re: Q200 fuel vent

REBECCA SIMPSON
 

All,
One Sky Dog is so right - I have a one off bird that I learn more about daily some say Dfly others say Q qualities. I bought it as a project and reassembled. Jeff LeTempt has been a champ at going to where I had it at the time and inspecting it and answering questions etc. Early on I received a lot of input (good and bad) even scary at times. As I see stuff I can relate to I chime in to either help learn or just understand. Sorry for any confusion - I'll lurk for awhile.
Tad

OneSkyDog@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/2/2005 7:43:35 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
davedq2@... writes:

Tad,
The foam in my Q2 canard is the same foam that is in the main wing. It
dissolves when fuel makes contact with it. Your Q should be no different. DON'T
LET FUEL NEAR IT.

Dave Dugas



.
To all;
Tad does not have a Q bird or a Dragonfly. I have not seen his plane but it
is a tandem wing just not constructed like our TW's.

Tad I know you want to help but comparing your birds rigging, fittments and
systems to Q and Dragonfly problems is confusing. At least it is to me.

I look forward to seeing your plane.

Regards,

One Sky Dog








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Re: Q200 speeds

REBECCA SIMPSON
 

Mike - what is the full price for a Dynon (EFIS, EMS Probes, harness etc)

Tad

Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...> wrote:
At cruise speed my indicated is typically 7 mph higher than it should be
on the steam gauge and just about right on my Dynon EFIS.
It's real easy to go 230 mph indicated in a shallow decent, I remember I
calculated I was true at 250 mph in a decent once at 10,000 feet.
http://www.warnerair.com/dynon/ (I have Dynon's at a discount price)
Mike Q-200 N3QP



HawkiDoug wrote:

Mike, what was your indicated airspeed?

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Dwyer" <mdwyer@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q200 speeds




I keep trying to make good measurements but with the standard 0-200A and
a 2 blade wood prop turning 2800 RPM I measure 205 MPH true at sealevel
29.92 inch on a 59deg F day.
Mike Q200 N3QP

HawkiDoug wrote:



Those of you who go fast, have you seen 200 mph indicated or true, or
both? It concerns a conversation I'm having with a RV6 friend of mine.

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974






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Re: Q200 fuel vent

Sam Hoskins <shoskins@...>
 

I have been reading these threads about the Q-200 fuel vent system and it
sounds like few of us are the using a true Q-200 plans fuel/vent system, and
even ours have little variations. I know more of you are out there - please
speak up.

With the exception of my removable aux tank, I have a stock system, almost
identical, in description, to Bob Farnum's. (read below). I am coming up
on 1,500 hours and the only problem with the vent system I ever had was
caused by a loose (cracked) fuel filler cap.

I have not seen any compelling reason to deviate from the plans. The trick
seems to be, is to do what the plans actually say.

Bob made an excellent point here he said "the fuel fill point is below the
top of the overflow tube in the header tank. I can't fill my tank any higher
than the fill point". My system is the same - the way the plans show.

I can't see any good reason to fill the tanks through the header tank, have
a vent coming out of the upper fuselage, use dual vents, check valves, boost
pumps, etc., etc.

Call me old fashioned, but I think the plans vent system works well -
provided they are followed. Having said all that, there may be a special
problem with the Tri-Qs, for the reasons Ernie noted in his second post in
this thread. (Another good reason to keep the tail wheel).

BTW, there have been times when I completely filled my fuel system, both
header and main tanks, and when the temperature of the ramp rose over 95
degrees or so I have seen fuel actually squirt out of the vent. However,
this never caused me any trouble.

Sam Hoskins

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/index.htm





_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Bob Farnam
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:59 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Q200 fuel vent



On my taildragger Q200, the fuel fill point is below the top of the overflow
tube in the header tank. I can't fill my tank any higher than the fill
point, which leaves the main tank fuel level well below the overflow level.
This is a good argument for not placing a fill point in the top of the
header tank. That would allow, in most cases, filling the whole system above
the level of the overflow line. With my system (stock Q200), the only way to
overfill the header is to pump from the aux. tank before there is overflow
room in the main tank. Avoiding that is a simple case of fuel management.
The other advantage of the stock system is that you can't directly introduce
water or other contaminants into the header tank from outside. The only way
fuel gets into my header tank is from the pickup sump in the main tank
through a filter. My main tank has two sumps. The aft one is low when on the
ground and collects water for draining. The forward one is low when in the
air and provides a screened pickup point. Because of my sump arrangement and
filter, it is difficult to get contaminants into the header. Refilling the
header is rarely a problem because I treat the header fuel as reserve and
almost never use it on a trip. Because the header is always full,
condensation in the header tank is not a problem. It is for these reasons
that I do not use a gascolator, just a filter between the header tank and
the engine. That minimizes the chance of vapor lock in the firewall forward
part of the fuel system. My fuel lines from the header to the engine are
fire sleeved 3/8 (-6) lines and flow 30 gph at high angle of attack.

This stock system is basically a copy of the Ercoupe design, and has worked
perfectly for 7 years and almost 500 hours. I suggest that the original Q200
system is well thought out and works well, at least for the taildragger.
Tri-Q's may have another problem as suggested by Earnest. For me, the only
reason to add a fuel pump is to ensure sufficient flow through a Flowscan
fuel flow transducer. When I tested one, it cut my fuel flow in half - still
sufficient, but barely so. For what it's worth...

Bob F.
N200QK
EAA Flight Advisor


Re: Q200 speeds

Sam Hoskins <shoskins@...>
 

Doug, the other day I trued out at 208 mph, full throttle, straight and
level, at 5,500". And that was without a spinner.

I use the spreadsheet provided by the National Test Pilot's school to remove
the effect of wind. http://www.ntps.edu/HTML/Downloads/

Sam



_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
HawkiDoug
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:13 PM
To: Q-List
Subject: [Q-LIST] Q200 speeds



Those of you who go fast, have you seen 200 mph indicated or true, or both?
It concerns a conversation I'm having with a RV6 friend of mine.

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974





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View my photos

Jim Patillo
 

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Re: Q200 speeds

Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
 

At cruise speed my indicated is typically 7 mph higher than it should be on the steam gauge and just about right on my Dynon EFIS.
It's real easy to go 230 mph indicated in a shallow decent, I remember I calculated I was true at 250 mph in a decent once at 10,000 feet.
http://www.warnerair.com/dynon/ (I have Dynon's at a discount price)
Mike Q-200 N3QP



HawkiDoug wrote:

Mike, what was your indicated airspeed?

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Dwyer" <mdwyer@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q200 speeds



I keep trying to make good measurements but with the standard 0-200A and
a 2 blade wood prop turning 2800 RPM I measure 205 MPH true at sealevel
29.92 inch on a 59deg F day.
Mike Q200 N3QP

HawkiDoug wrote:


Those of you who go fast, have you seen 200 mph indicated or true, or both? It concerns a conversation I'm having with a RV6 friend of mine.

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links










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http://www.quickiebuilders.org


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Yahoo! Groups Links









Re: Extra fuel vent vs another pump

Jim Patillo
 

Peter,

As previously stated, my 5/8" return line is at the very top of the
header with the 3/16"? vent tube bent into the top of it. The fuel
in header is consistantly 1-1/2" below that level when full. The
only time that was not the case was when I mistakenly added fuel
from the aux tank into two already full tanks. That was complete
stupidity and lack of fuel management on my part. But I got
distracted and it happened to me. It can happen to others with
similar setups. Other than that *&%$UP, I have not experienced a
problem with it in 600 hours that I am aware of. Will make some
pictures available in a little while.

Regards,

Jim P. N46JP Q200 Heading for Golden West EAA Fly In tomorrow after
I pick up Sam Kittle in Calaveras County, CA.

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris@b...>
wrote:
Jim if your vent is located down into the return pipe it will fill
with fuel when fuel surges up the return pipe. When the main is full
then during turbulence it has nowhere else to go but up the return
pipe, and into the vent.And with the filler setup you have then the
return pipe will in fact be filled to begin.
Not good for supply to the carb.
Peter
< the 3/16"? vent tube located about 1/2"
down into the 5/8" return tube to the main. The advantage of
filling
from the top (mine is different than stock, 5 gallon header tank
is
on pax side only) into the header allows me to fill the main and
header at the same time, stopping when both are level with the 2
1/2"
fill tube to the main which is about 1 1/2" from top of fuselage
(can
fill plane very quickly). This keeps the vent clear at all times.>

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Re: Q200 fuel vent

French <LJFrench@...>
 

Earnest,
I have been an advocate of a good sound design for the vent system on our Q's that would be foolproof enough to avoid the need for the complexity of a boost pump. I am at the point where I have the option of designing the header tank for my Q'Vair and you bring up a good point that I have been pondering - install the secondary vent at the front of the header tank and the main vent per plans.Right now I'm thinking about an integral overflow system that would also span from the front of the header to the back of the header where it would Tee together down the common 5/8" tube to the main tank. Both the main and secondary vents would be incorporated into these overflow channels. No matter what the flight attitude, one end of the header would be always be vented. Also was thinking about making the secondary vent orifice small compared to the tube that it attaches to. Thought being that not enough fuel could bleed through the orifice so as to completely fill the tube which then creates the blockage issue. I don't know, still work in progress on some of these ideas.
The vent out the top of the fuselage is probably the best of all options for venting, it's just that it has some of the other negatives that could maybe be engineered out. Also has the risk that if the aircraft ever inverted for whatever reason, the header eventually completly empties out onto the ground and hopefully there is not any other ignition sources around. Maybe designing some baffling inside the tank might reduce the chance for fuel to splash out. Also, if it could be hidden and channeled or routed somewhere else to get the ram affect would also help.
Jim would have to speak for his type system, but it seems that the overflow tube/vent tube system still exists which part of what we are trying to keep from getting flooded under certain conditions.

Still looking for the perfect "feel good" system.

Lynn

Ron,
I have a completely stock system. When the main and header are full and
you accelerate or rotate, fuel in the header moves to the rear of the tank,
fills the down pipe which in turn fills the vent. I have seen this many times
on the ground when I press down on the tail to move the plane around on the
ramp immediately after fueling. Fuel pours out the vent.
I am beginning to wonder if this is not a bigger problem in Tri gears
since tail draggers are already in a climb angle when sitting on the ground. I
think, but have not tested, the theory that a drain pipe and vent in the
front of the tank would be less susceptible to this problem.

Earnest






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links








Re: Q200 speeds

HawkiDoug <hawkidoug@...>
 

Mike, what was your indicated airspeed?

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Dwyer" <mdwyer@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q200 speeds


I keep trying to make good measurements but with the standard 0-200A and
a 2 blade wood prop turning 2800 RPM I measure 205 MPH true at sealevel
29.92 inch on a 59deg F day.
Mike Q200 N3QP

HawkiDoug wrote:

Those of you who go fast, have you seen 200 mph indicated or true, or both? It concerns a conversation I'm having with a RV6 friend of mine.

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links











Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links







Re: Q200 speeds

Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
 

I keep trying to make good measurements but with the standard 0-200A and a 2 blade wood prop turning 2800 RPM I measure 205 MPH true at sealevel 29.92 inch on a 59deg F day.
Mike Q200 N3QP

HawkiDoug wrote:

Those of you who go fast, have you seen 200 mph indicated or true, or both? It concerns a conversation I'm having with a RV6 friend of mine.

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links








Q200 speeds

HawkiDoug <hawkidoug@...>
 

Those of you who go fast, have you seen 200 mph indicated or true, or both? It concerns a conversation I'm having with a RV6 friend of mine.

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974


Re: Q200 fuel vent

HawkiDoug <hawkidoug@...>
 

I'm assuming you ment to attach something to your post but forgot. Please try again.

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <dave@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 3:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Q200 fuel vent


Hi Doug,

Here is what I think Bruce described for his boost pump. It looks very
simple and effective.

Dave







Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links







Re: Q200 fuel vent

Dave <dave@...>
 

Hi Doug,

Here is what I think Bruce described for his boost pump. It looks very
simple and effective.

Dave


Re: Q200 fuel vent

One Sky Dog
 

In a message dated 6/2/2005 7:43:35 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
davedq2@... writes:

Tad,
The foam in my Q2 canard is the same foam that is in the main wing. It
dissolves when fuel makes contact with it. Your Q should be no different. DON'T
LET FUEL NEAR IT.

Dave Dugas



.
To all;
Tad does not have a Q bird or a Dragonfly. I have not seen his plane but it
is a tandem wing just not constructed like our TW's.

Tad I know you want to help but comparing your birds rigging, fittments and
systems to Q and Dragonfly problems is confusing. At least it is to me.

I look forward to seeing your plane.

Regards,

One Sky Dog


Re: Extra fuel vent vs another pump

Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@...>
 

Another option for all of you to critically evaluate: use a separate vent for the aux tank. Putting a check valve in the fuel line would prevent loss of pressurization if a leak developed in the aux tank. Also, if the aux tank is turned on prematurely, as in Jim's situation, the main header tank vent could become full and overflow but the fuel system would remain pressurized from the vent for the aux tank.
Jerry

Jim Patillo wrote:

Fellas,

Actually after thinking about it further, the stock fuel vent setup I have works perfectly with the 3/16"? vent tube located about 1/2" down into the 5/8" return tube to the main. The advantage of filling from the top (mine is different than stock, 5 gallon header tank is on pax side only) into the header allows me to fill the main and header at the same time, stopping when both are level with the 2 1/2" fill tube to the main which is about 1 1/2" from top of fuselage(can fill plane very quickly). This keeps the vent clear at all times. After taxi out, fuel is even lower.

The problem that caused my engine failure was due to pumping from the aux into an already full main and header. Like overfilling a bucket it had to go somewhere and the path of least resistance was through the vent.
The answer for me is DO NOT TURN ON THE AUX SWITCH PRIOR TO FLIGHT. Just like, do not turn off the master/ignition prior to flight. It is on my check list now!

I'll keep what I have. But if you are newly building or rebuilding with a stock header take heed!

Regards,
Jim Patillo




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http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links







Re: Q200 speeds

MartinErni@...
 

Doug,
I have seen 220 IAS many times but not in level flight. Only 185 to 190
IAS in level flight will tri gear.
Earnest


Tad's Phoenix

David J. Gall
 

Tad,

You obviously did not build your Phoenix, otherwise you would not be
prefacing "I believe" in front of your pronouncements about your canard's
structural material. Please take the prudent/conservative approach and
physically inspect your canard for evidence of foam deterioration. Not doing
so on the basis that you "believe" something because you were "told" so or
"researched" something could get you seriously dead, or worse.


David J. Gall

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
On Behalf Of Tad Simpson
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:55 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q200 fuel vent

Steve,
Thanks for the heads up. I had heard about this and did some
invesigations early on. Seems like there were also some near
misses when the wing began to flutter due to the same
problem. The foam in the canard is I believe poly urethane
and is not damaged by fuel. It is the same stuff that
aircraft spruce or wicks sells for building fuel cells

Steve <sham@...> wrote:
Tad, If my memory serves me right there was a accident with a
Q that someone had built a wing tank. He ran auto gas and the
tank leaked, melted the foam and had a wing had a structural
failure in flight.

Careful
Steve Ham
----- Original Message -----
From: REBECCA SIMPSON
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q200 fuel vent


Ernest,
I actually have a Phoenix (1 off TW). Started from Dfly
plans, LS-1, Tri gear 26ft wing span.
I have been told many things regarding Q/Dfly similarities
(pics in photo album N1107P...)

I did fail to mention there is a fuel pump for take off and
landing, no header. It has a lot of custom so It is difficult
to link similarities between either the Q or Dfly. I don't
have plans and not real familiar with Q or Dfly just know
there are differences and similarities and heard a bunch of
stories regarding the design/plan.

Tad

MartinErni@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/1/2005 9:08:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
rebeccaandtad_simpson@... writes:

Mine was built with NACA vents in the rear wing and
plumbing that runs up to
the wing tanks to build ram pressure


Tad,
I am not familiar with wing vents or wing tanks on a
Q200? Anything
would be a guess.
Earnest


Re: Flowscan fuel transducers

David Chalmers <David@...>
 

Bob, which flowscan transducer did you test? I was looking into them a while back and the suggestion seemed to be 201s for pump feed, 231 for gravity. I know of a Varieze driver who has installed a flowscan transducer in his gravity feed O-200 and claims it works fine - didn't know what model though.

From my notes

201A, 0.3 to 30gph, Pressure drop 0.6psi @ 15gph
201B-6, 0.6 to 60gph, Pressure drop 1.2psi @ 30gph
231, 0.5 to 65gph, Pressure drop 0.38psi @ 20gph

I was thinking of getting a 231 to try but if it cuts the flow in half I'll look elsewhere.

Dave Chalmers
TriQ200 N4016G 250hrs
Redmond, WA

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Farnam [mailto:bfarnam@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:59 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Q200 fuel vent


On my taildragger Q200, the fuel fill point is below the top of the overflow
tube in the header tank. I can't fill my tank any higher than the fill
point, which leaves the main tank fuel level well below the overflow level.
This is a good argument for not placing a fill point in the top of the
header tank. That would allow, in most cases, filling the whole system above
the level of the overflow line. With my system (stock Q200), the only way to
overfill the header is to pump from the aux. tank before there is overflow
room in the main tank. Avoiding that is a simple case of fuel management.
The other advantage of the stock system is that you can't directly introduce
water or other contaminants into the header tank from outside. The only way
fuel gets into my header tank is from the pickup sump in the main tank
through a filter. My main tank has two sumps. The aft one is low when on the
ground and collects water for draining. The forward one is low when in the
air and provides a screened pickup point. Because of my sump arrangement and
filter, it is difficult to get contaminants into the header. Refilling the
header is rarely a problem because I treat the header fuel as reserve and
almost never use it on a trip. Because the header is always full,
condensation in the header tank is not a problem. It is for these reasons
that I do not use a gascolator, just a filter between the header tank and
the engine. That minimizes the chance of vapor lock in the firewall forward
part of the fuel system. My fuel lines from the header to the engine are
fire sleeved 3/8 (-6) lines and flow 30 gph at high angle of attack.

This stock system is basically a copy of the Ercoupe design, and has worked
perfectly for 7 years and almost 500 hours. I suggest that the original Q200
system is well thought out and works well, at least for the taildragger.
Tri-Q's may have another problem as suggested by Earnest. For me, the only
reason to add a fuel pump is to ensure sufficient flow through a Flowscan
fuel flow transducer. When I tested one, it cut my fuel flow in half - still
sufficient, but barely so. For what it's worth...

Bob F.
N200QK
EAA Flight Advisor


Re: Q200 fuel vent

HawkiDoug <hawkidoug@...>
 

I understand your concern Ernest. I just wanted to make sure I understood the problem for myself. I actually don't like topping off my main tank and I wanted to know if I'm avoiding the issue by doing so or whether it was false hope. I did not build my airplane but assume it has a plans built vent. I have never had the problem, but don't want to have the problem! The O200 burns more fuel that I do, so I understand why you guys are topping off the tanks and putting in aux. tanks. I will now consider my main tank to hold 17 gallons. That still gives me over 3.5 hours range not considering the header. The only issue is if I sell the plane to someone else, who, like me is not educated on the subject. I will ponder that thought.

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974

----- Original Message -----
From: <MartinErni@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q200 fuel vent


Doug,
Correct. I am afraid I might forget about it 2 years from now or maybe
next week. :-)
Earnest






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