Date   

Re: Taxiing before first flight. (long editorial)

Dave Richardson <dave@...>
 

You know Jim, it is easy to get so wrapped up in the "I've got a better
idea" mode that all other solutions become just noise. It sounds like
Wes came up with a neat adaptation of the original single pull lever.
Your practical experience shows, though, he would really need three
hands to make it work safely. I hope Wes listens to you and realizes
you are not just pontificating. Have you let him taxi your plane to
show him what he could be experiencing as compared to what his is
getting out of his design? I'll bet he spent far more time coming up
with his solutions and implementing them than it would take to install
the proven six pack.

I had something similar happen to me with my reflexor prior to first
flight when a major flaw in my design was pointed out. Rather than
argue my position, I ripped out the whole mechanisim I worked pretty
hard on designing and implementing and installed a Falkner reflexor in a
fraction of the time. I have a much safer reflexor as a result and that
is what really counts.

To Wes and other guys like Wes, why waste your time, energy and $'s on
something that has already been solved and proven to be successful? Do
what works and go fly your plane.

Dave Richardson
Tri-Q2 N825DR 84 hrs.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Patillo
Sent: Thu 10/19/2006 2:33 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Cc:
Subject: [Q-LIST] Taxiing before first flight. (long editorial)


Re: Taxiing before first flight.

Paul Buckley
 

Jim Patillo N46JP Q200 800 hours in type. So far, even in severe
crosswinds, this plane has never deviated from the center line.
Bingo! There's a reason.


A nosewheel ?? :-)


Re: Flight characteristics questions

Paul Buckley
 

Hi Tim

As a matter of interest, all aircraft become increasingly pitch sensitive as the C of G travels aft, that is why there is an aft limit.
There is a safety factor built in, of course, but, generally speaking, to be behind that limit is dangerous.
The further forward the C of G is, the more pitch stable the aircraft is, at the expense of elevator authority, which is why there is a forward limit.

Would I be correct in thinking that you do not have any sparrow strainers installed?

Regards

Paul Buckley
Cheshire
England.

TriQ200....still building.

----- Original Message -----
From: q2fun
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 12:27 AM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions


Hi All,

I have some questions about the flight characteristics of the Q-2.
Pitch sensitivity. With an after c/g my Q2 seams pitch sensitive.
My Q2 has the LS1 canard, Revmaster 65hp, tail dragger. Is it
normal to get more pitch sensitive the more aft the C/G gets?

Rudder to control bank. My rudder does not do anything for bank.
If the wing is down 5 degrees and you use the rudder to bring it up,
all that happens is the plane will yaw and the bank may even get
steeper. Is that a normal characteristic of the Q design?

With an increase in airspeed above 150 mph indicated the airplane
wants to pitch down and farther increase airspeed/pitch down
harder. Is this normal? Sparrow strainers to small for this
airspeed? I have the standard pitch trim system.

I have been flying my Q since April and now have 62 hours in it. It
is a joy to blast around the pattern and it is even a joy to put gas
in it after a long cross county. It is just a little too slow in
cruise 130 kts.

Thank You All.
Tim Bryant
KUNV
N86TB






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Taxiing before first flight. (long editorial)

Jim Patillo
 

Fellas,

I had the opportunity to high speed taxi Wes Isbergs' Q200 Saturday
before his first flight and would like to share some info. Even
though he did a fair job of controlling the plane down the runway, I
found it very difficult to handle. I could not keep it straight
either with rudder or his braking system or the combination. Wind
was about 12K - 10-15 degrees off the nose. (Note: he has no
bellcrank but has split the cables internally to rudder and tail
wheel and has a modified dual differential finger brake system).
Guess he didn't buy the Jim/Bob Six Pack Mod concept. My immediate
response to him was to park the plane before he got hurt and fix the
problem!

Now for the details. With just splitting the cables, Wes has no way
to differentiate (detune)the angle of the tail wheel from the
rudder. He's installed a modified dual finger brake that has a
single stick that slides sideways to apply pressure to one master
cylinder or the other or both. That is not good because its way to
sensitive and hard to get positive results from known inputs.
Further exacerabating the situation is his hand is on the brake and
not the throttle when taking off or landing. Not a good thing! How
many serious tail draggers have anything other than toe brakes or
heel brakes? Its just not natural to have finger brakes on a tail
dragger and is to dangerous in my opinion. There are way to many
things going on to be doing this additional "dance".

This leads me to a conclusion. The Q's with sixpack mods installed
are really quite tame, ask anyone who has them. I cannot for the
life of me understand why anyone would want to do anything
different. Yet we see it all the time. Most new Q pilots have a very
difficult time handling their planes initially and often crack them
up or have an incident even before the first flight. Because you
didn't invent it, doesn't mean you can't copy it! The situation with
Wes; here's a very intellignet fella sitting on a field with
sucessuful Q's all around, yet he chooses to do his own thing. Why?
To much additional cost? To much additional labor? Doesn't have a
clear undrstanding of the problem? Doesn't know how to fix it - NOT!
What? I do not understand this.

This leads me to another conclusion. If Wes, sitting in the middle
of LVK with sucessful planes all aroud, chooses to go a different
route, what does that tell you about builders working on their own,
isolated and out of touch? I now understand why this is not so
simple and brace yourself fellas, we're in for more!

These comments are in no way intended to bring heat on Wes but to
simply make a couple of points as to why Q pilots are still smacking
up their planes. Hopefully this turns on the lights for someoen who
don't want to get hurt.

Regards,
Jim Patillo N46JP Q200 800 hours in type. So far, even in severe
crosswinds, this plane has never deviated from the center line.
Bingo! There's a reason.


Re: Flight characteristics questions

Letempt, Jeffrey MR <jeffrey.letempt@...>
 

It is interesting to discover differences in the Q and Dragonfly as these
discussions come up. The Dragonfly's rudder is very effective, in fact the
rudder is way more effective than the ailerons in rolling my Dragonfly....of
course the Dragonfly probably has twice the rudder area. As the airspeed
builds in the Dragonfly the aileron controls forces get very heavy, this is
a problem that the Q does not seem to have. Lots of Dragonfly's have
aileron servo tabs to reduce the aileron stick pressure.

Like Jim's experience, my Dragonfly is more pitch sensitive with an aft CG.
I have adjustable sparrow strainers on my Dragonfly (GU canard) and a simple
2 spring elevator trim system. If I run out of up elevator trim I need to
put more AOA in the sparrow strainers. The faster the airspeed the more the
elevator wants to come up. Using a digital level; with the upper surface of
the elevator at 45 degrees down (not travel, just the static position) the
upper surface of my sparrow strainers are at 38 degrees down. A 2-3 degree
adjustment of the sparrow strainers makes a significant difference, in fact
I have been able to correct for a slight roll tendency with one sparrow
strainer that is set ever so slightly different that the other one.

This sparrow strainer setting works for my current cruise airspeed of about
140 MPH. My elevator trim system does not have a wide adjustment range and
I have found that the 5-7 MPH airspeed difference with my wheel pants
requires a sparrow strainer adjustment. I can adjust for hands-off with the
reflexor if I run out of elevator trim, but the elevator will not be in
trail. I can either install larger springs, install a different trim system
that has more travel, or make minor sparrow strainer adjustments when I make
aerodynamic adjustments that will effect my cruise airspeed. I will
probably opt for the minor sparrow strainer adjustments, but a trim system
with more range is the right answer (and there are even plans in an old
Dragonfly newsletter)....maybe I am getting lazy.

I know very little of this information could be directly applied to a Q, but
you never know. Obviously you should listen to what the experienced Q guys
have to say. Good luck.

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@...
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: 10/16/2006 7:12 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Flight characteristics questions


TIM, FIRST CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR 62 HOURS FLIGHT TIME IN A Q.
YOU'VE JOINED A UNIQUE CLUB.

--- In Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com,
"q2fun" <q2fun@...> wrote:

Hi All,

I have some questions about the flight characteristics of the Q-
2.
Pitch sensitivity. With an after c/g my Q2 seams pitch
sensitive.
My Q2 has the LS1 canard, Revmaster 65hp, tail dragger. Is it
normal to get more pitch sensitive the more aft the C/G gets?
ABSOLUTELY! FAR AFT CG IS NOT A GOOD PLACE TO BE IN THIS PLANE.

Rudder to control bank. My rudder does not do anything for bank.
If the wing is down 5 degrees and you use the rudder to bring it
up,
all that happens is the plane will yaw and the bank may even get
steeper. Is that a normal characteristic of the Q design?
MAYBE. IN LEVEL FLIGHT, PUSHING THE RUDDER WILL DEFINATELY YAW THE
TAIL BUT I HAVEN'T NOTICE THE BANK INCREASING. IN SLIGHT BANKS MINE
WILL RECOVER USING THE RUDDER ONLY. I THINK THE SMALL RUDDER ON
THESE PLANES DOES A GOOD JOB BUT RECOVERING FROM A BANK SOLELY USING
RUDDER .......NOT SO GOOD. I WILL CHECK IT OUT WHEN I FLY AGAIN.

With an increase in airspeed above 150 mph indicated the airplane
wants to pitch down and farther increase airspeed/pitch down
harder. Is this normal? Sparrow strainers to small for this
airspeed? I have the standard pitch trim system.
I CRUISED MY Q200 (LS1)SATURDAY FROM 130 TO 185K AND DID NOT NOTICE
ANY TUCKING OR PITCHING. I ALSO HAVE A STANDARD TRIM SYSTEM. MAYBE
YOUR STRAINERS ARE INSTALLED INCORRECT.

I have been flying my Q since April and now have 62 hours in it.
It
is a joy to blast around the pattern and it is even a joy to put
gas
in it after a long cross county. It is just a little too slow in
cruise 130 kts.
YOU CAN FIX THAT! TIM WE SEE 160-165K CRUISE STANDARD WITH PUMPED
0200'S (TAIL DRAGGER VERSION). JUST COSTS A LITTLE $$$$$$$.

REGARDS,
JIM PATILLO

Thank You All.
Tim Bryant
KUNV
N86TB


Re: Headset

BARRY AMANDA STEARNS <stearns2559@...>
 

Or buy a David Clark or Telex and not have to worry about it breaking....not even talking about the one I have for sale, but we have seen so many light speed headsets broke at the shop that I don't care for them anymore...yes the service support is great, but I'd buy one that didn't need service for the same money. Also, I haven't seen this new 30 something Lightspeed, but I hope it isn't as big and stiff as the ones I have worked on. I like lighter softer headsets that don't squeeze my brains out to stop the noise from getting in the ear. Just me 2 cents worth.

Barry

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Patillo<mailto:logistics_engineering@...>
To: Q-LIST@...<mailto:Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:39 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Headset


Ron, quit being such a damn tight wad and just purchase a new 30 3G,
there are only $585.00! That will give you what you want and it will
be new. You can't beat Lightspeed for service warranty and back up.
Loosen up with that dough, you can't take it with you and you sure
as hell don't want to give it all to your kids.

Hope all is well with your flight testing. How many hours now?

Regards,
Jim P

--- In Q-LIST@...<mailto:Q-LIST@...>, "Ron Triano" <rondefly@...> wrote:
>
> James, do they have the cell plugin and what is the amount of noise
> canceling ? If so, let me know how much they offer.
>
>
>
> Ron Triano
>
> South Lake Tahoe, CA
>
> The Sonerai is finished and flying
>
> finishing the Q200
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Q-LIST@...<mailto:Q-LIST@...> [mailto:Q-LIST@...<mailto:Q-LIST@...>] On
Behalf Of
> James Cartwright
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:22 PM
> To: Q-LIST@...<mailto:Q-LIST@...>
> Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Headset
>
>
>
> Ron,
> I have a couple of Lightspeed headsets I was going to send in for
the 30 3g
> units. Maybe I can set you up for the same price they are going to
give me
> for a trade in. These units are only 2 years old. They are the
QFRXCc
> Headset.
>
> James
> 615-293-3134
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ron Triano
> To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 7:49 AM
> Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Headset
>
> Thanks Phil for the offer, from everything I hear about the
lightspeed type
> that probably is the way I will go however what is a Marv Golden
one?
>
> Ron Triano
>
> South Lake Tahoe, CA
>
> Sonerai there and Q200 gettin there
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
> [mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com]
On Behalf
> Of
> britmcman@aol. <mailto:britmcman%40aol.com> com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:15 PM
> To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
> Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Headset
>
> Ron:
>
> If you like, I could lend you a Marv Golden Logo'd version of the
Lightspeed
>
> QFR Cross Country C. It has a cell phone interface and is a pretty
nice
> unit. Or a 30 3 G Lightspeed (also with cell phone interface). You
can get
> an
> idea about what some of the Lightspeed products are all about. I
trust you.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Re: Flight characteristics questions

MartinErni@...
 

Jeff,
Not all Q's are like the one described that would not lift a wing with
rudder. My plane easily lifts a wing with rudder. When I want to fold a map I
get on the rudder so my hands are free. A few years back, before I put my
pitch trim switch on the stick, I flew it for 30 minutes without touching the
stick using pitch trim and rudder. That was on an average summer day with
average turbulence. I could have done it all day but 30 minutes gave me the info I
wanted.
I don't know if not having anhedral on the canard makes a difference or
not. Maybe anhedral on the canard partially cancels the dihedral of the wing.
It's amazing how many differences we find in the same design with different
builders.

Earnest
Triq200 960 hrs


Re: Headset

Jim Patillo
 

Ron, quit being such a damn tight wad and just purchase a new 30 3G,
there are only $585.00! That will give you what you want and it will
be new. You can't beat Lightspeed for service warranty and back up.
Loosen up with that dough, you can't take it with you and you sure
as hell don't want to give it all to your kids.

Hope all is well with your flight testing. How many hours now?

Regards,
Jim P




--- In Q-LIST@..., "Ron Triano" <rondefly@...> wrote:

James, do they have the cell plugin and what is the amount of noise
canceling ? If so, let me know how much they offer.



Ron Triano

South Lake Tahoe, CA

The Sonerai is finished and flying

finishing the Q200

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On
Behalf Of
James Cartwright
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:22 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Headset



Ron,
I have a couple of Lightspeed headsets I was going to send in for
the 30 3g
units. Maybe I can set you up for the same price they are going to
give me
for a trade in. These units are only 2 years old. They are the
QFRXCc
Headset.

James
615-293-3134

----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Triano
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 7:49 AM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Headset

Thanks Phil for the offer, from everything I hear about the
lightspeed type
that probably is the way I will go however what is a Marv Golden
one?

Ron Triano

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Sonerai there and Q200 gettin there

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com]
On Behalf
Of
britmcman@aol. <mailto:britmcman%40aol.com> com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:15 PM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Headset

Ron:

If you like, I could lend you a Marv Golden Logo'd version of the
Lightspeed

QFR Cross Country C. It has a cell phone interface and is a pretty
nice
unit. Or a 30 3 G Lightspeed (also with cell phone interface). You
can get
an
idea about what some of the Lightspeed products are all about. I
trust you.

Cheers,

Phil



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Headset

Ron Triano <rondefly@...>
 

James, do they have the cell plugin and what is the amount of noise
canceling ? If so, let me know how much they offer.



Ron Triano

South Lake Tahoe, CA

The Sonerai is finished and flying

finishing the Q200

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
James Cartwright
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:22 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Headset



Ron,
I have a couple of Lightspeed headsets I was going to send in for the 30 3g
units. Maybe I can set you up for the same price they are going to give me
for a trade in. These units are only 2 years old. They are the QFRXCc
Headset.

James
615-293-3134

----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Triano
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 7:49 AM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Headset

Thanks Phil for the offer, from everything I hear about the lightspeed type
that probably is the way I will go however what is a Marv Golden one?

Ron Triano

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Sonerai there and Q200 gettin there

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
Of
britmcman@aol. <mailto:britmcman%40aol.com> com
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:15 PM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Headset

Ron:

If you like, I could lend you a Marv Golden Logo'd version of the Lightspeed

QFR Cross Country C. It has a cell phone interface and is a pretty nice
unit. Or a 30 3 G Lightspeed (also with cell phone interface). You can get
an
idea about what some of the Lightspeed products are all about. I trust you.

Cheers,

Phil


Re: Headset

James Cartwright <james.cartwright@...>
 

Ron,
I have a couple of Lightspeed headsets I was going to send in for the 30 3g units. Maybe I can set you up for the same price they are going to give me for a trade in. These units are only 2 years old. They are the QFRXCc Headset.


James
615-293-3134

----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Triano
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 7:49 AM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Headset


Thanks Phil for the offer, from everything I hear about the lightspeed type
that probably is the way I will go however what is a Marv Golden one?

Ron Triano

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Sonerai there and Q200 gettin there

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
britmcman@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:15 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Headset

Ron:

If you like, I could lend you a Marv Golden Logo'd version of the Lightspeed

QFR Cross Country C. It has a cell phone interface and is a pretty nice
unit. Or a 30 3 G Lightspeed (also with cell phone interface). You can get
an
idea about what some of the Lightspeed products are all about. I trust you.

Cheers,

Phil


Re: Flight characteristics questions

njepsen@ihug.co.nz <njepsen@...>
 

Allan
I have sent you a few pix of your Q2 showing a side view. I'll do a CD of all the Pix I have of your A/C and post iot to you. Send me your address again.
neil



Allan Farr wrote:

Will do - I'll let you know when it's done, probably next week before I can get hold of a camera.
Allan


Re: Flight characteristics questions

Allan Farr <afarr@...>
 

From what I understand it depends on how much filler is used on the glass-to-glass join at the trailing edge. If none is used, there is quite a lip. However even allowing for that, my elevators may not have been constructed totally accurately as otherwise flipping them over would have been a lot easier.
AF

----- Original Message -----
From: David J. Gall
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Thursday, 19 October 2006 11:05
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions


Allan,

I don't think there's supposed to be any curve at all in the GU elevators.
My plans don't show any.

David J. Gall

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
> On Behalf Of Allan Farr
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 2:40 PM
> To: Q-LIST@...
> Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions
>
> David,
> The elevators on my GU canard appeared to me to have been put
> on upside down by the original builder as the trailing edge
> curved up. I have gone to alot of trouble flipping them over
> so that the t/e curves down - do you think I should have left
> them as is?
> Allan Farr
> Q2
> P.S. On fast taxi runs with the elevators as they were (t/e
> curved up), the canard didn't want to fly. I need all the
> lift I can get up front, and that is one reason why I flipped
> the elevators over.


Re: Flight characteristics questions

Allan Farr <afarr@...>
 

Will do - I'll let you know when it's done, probably next week before I can get hold of a camera.
Allan

----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Humble
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Thursday, 19 October 2006 10:45
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions


Allen - can you take some photos and post them to the photos folder?

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
A Sign Above www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974
----- Original Message -----
From: Allan Farr
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions

David,
The elevators on my GU canard appeared to me to have been put on upside down by the original builder as the trailing edge curved up. I have gone to alot of trouble flipping them over so that the t/e curves down - do you think I should have left them as is?
Allan Farr
Q2
P.S. On fast taxi runs with the elevators as they were (t/e curved up), the canard didn't want to fly. I need all the lift I can get up front, and that is one reason why I flipped the elevators over.

----- Original Message -----
From: david@...
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Wednesday, 18 October 2006 13:11
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions

Paul,

Not underneath. On top. It is UNdesirable to have undercambered
elevators on canards. It IS desireable to have a slight REFLEX (reverse
camber near the trailing edge) on the elevators of canard airplanes.
This is one distinct reason that the choice of the LS(1)-0417MOD
airfoil was such a POOR CHOICE for a canard airfoil, despite the fact
that it has been made to work. IIRC, the LS(1) canard was rumored to be
the breaking point between Rutan and the rest of QAC.

David J. Gall

----Original Message----
From: paulbuckley@...
Date: Oct 17, 2006 13:28
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Subj: Re: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions

Dave

As a matter of interest, an old method of achieving trim was to 'dope'
a length of string along the airfoil trailing edge, varying the length
to achieve the desired effect.
Do you think that this method could be used underneath the GU
elevators as an alternative to camber, if only as a temporary
explorative measure?

Paul Buckley
Cheshire
England


Re: Headset

Richard Hole <rickhole@...>
 

Lightspeed is a good unit. Last year while using a friends 3G (which
I liked a lot) the mic boom came loose. I called Lightspeed. The
tech guy told me how to disassemble and fix it, also sent me a
replacement mic and boom free of charge for an out-of-warranty unit.
Try to beat that!


Re: Flight characteristics questions

David J. Gall
 

Allan,

I don't think there's supposed to be any curve at all in the GU elevators.
My plans don't show any.


David J. Gall

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
On Behalf Of Allan Farr
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 2:40 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions

David,
The elevators on my GU canard appeared to me to have been put
on upside down by the original builder as the trailing edge
curved up. I have gone to alot of trouble flipping them over
so that the t/e curves down - do you think I should have left
them as is?
Allan Farr
Q2
P.S. On fast taxi runs with the elevators as they were (t/e
curved up), the canard didn't want to fly. I need all the
lift I can get up front, and that is one reason why I flipped
the elevators over.


Re: Flight characteristics questions

David J. Gall
 

Cap'n Dan,

They look like
someone didn't design something right and they had to add a fix.
BINGO! Well, not quite. Airfoil choices are a compromise and sometimes a
band-aid is needed to make a particular choice work in a particular
application. The LS(1) airfoil wasn't the only choice at the time, but it
had a goodly amount of marketing hype propelling it along in the early
'80's. We've since learned that its not such a hot GA airfoil after all, but
for a high wing loading (like on a Q200 canard) it is one of the "good"
choices. Unfortunately, its trailing edge is curved just the wrong way for a
canard elevator.

Strainers are one possible solution to fix such a problem, but not the best
for the hangar-rash issues you mention, among others. The advantage of the
strainers is that they have a long leverage arm behind the elevator hinge
line. You could use a fixed trim tab instead, but it would have to be pretty
large since it would be closer to the hinge line. See the Long-EZ "new"
canard with the Roncz 1145MS airfoil for the correct way to do it. Roncz
essentially designed a fixed trim tab into the airfoil along the entire span
of the elevator. Most people don't even notice that it is there, but it is.
It is "tweaked" so that the elevator's natural "floating" angle of
deflection is appropriate for a low cruise speed for the airplane without
any trim system or control system forces being applied. Your strainers
should be adjusted similarly, if the designers and builders did their jobs
right.

Meanwhile, since no one has adapted the Roncz airfoil to the Q-birds, I
recommend that you keep the strainers and follow the advice offered on this
list, especially the advice to have some experienced sets of eyes look over
your plane. I suspect you've got a problem with your strainers or maybe even
with the construction of your elevators.


David J. Gall
P.S. an anti-servo tab could be adapted, but it would only be flush at one
elevator deflection, likely close to full "up" elevator (trailing edge
down). Tabs, by their very nature, are not "flush."


-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
On Behalf Of Danny Creech
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:13 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions

< snip! >

2. More important though is: Are there any other ways to
fix this problem without having to put sparrow strainers on??
They increase drag, stick out being easy to damage from
airshow goers, and all in all they look ugly. They look like
someone didn't design something right and they had to add a fix.

Has anyone came up with some other way to fix this problem?
Is this problem only on the LS1 wing or do all of the Q2s and
Q200s have this problem? Would making a flush mounted tab
(anti-servo or something) into the elevator work?

,___
Capt. Danny Creech
^^ Not an aerodynamic engineer obviously.


Re: Flight characteristics questions

Doug Humble <hawkidoug@...>
 

Allen - can you take some photos and post them to the photos folder?

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
A Sign Above www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974

----- Original Message -----
From: Allan Farr
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions


David,
The elevators on my GU canard appeared to me to have been put on upside down by the original builder as the trailing edge curved up. I have gone to alot of trouble flipping them over so that the t/e curves down - do you think I should have left them as is?
Allan Farr
Q2
P.S. On fast taxi runs with the elevators as they were (t/e curved up), the canard didn't want to fly. I need all the lift I can get up front, and that is one reason why I flipped the elevators over.

----- Original Message -----
From: david@...
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Wednesday, 18 October 2006 13:11
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions

Paul,

Not underneath. On top. It is UNdesirable to have undercambered
elevators on canards. It IS desireable to have a slight REFLEX (reverse
camber near the trailing edge) on the elevators of canard airplanes.
This is one distinct reason that the choice of the LS(1)-0417MOD
airfoil was such a POOR CHOICE for a canard airfoil, despite the fact
that it has been made to work. IIRC, the LS(1) canard was rumored to be
the breaking point between Rutan and the rest of QAC.

David J. Gall

----Original Message----
From: paulbuckley@...
Date: Oct 17, 2006 13:28
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Subj: Re: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions

Dave

As a matter of interest, an old method of achieving trim was to 'dope'
a length of string along the airfoil trailing edge, varying the length
to achieve the desired effect.
Do you think that this method could be used underneath the GU
elevators as an alternative to camber, if only as a temporary
explorative measure?

Paul Buckley
Cheshire
England


Re: Flight characteristics questions

Allan Farr <afarr@...>
 

David,
The elevators on my GU canard appeared to me to have been put on upside down by the original builder as the trailing edge curved up. I have gone to alot of trouble flipping them over so that the t/e curves down - do you think I should have left them as is?
Allan Farr
Q2
P.S. On fast taxi runs with the elevators as they were (t/e curved up), the canard didn't want to fly. I need all the lift I can get up front, and that is one reason why I flipped the elevators over.

----- Original Message -----
From: david@...
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Wednesday, 18 October 2006 13:11
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions


Paul,

Not underneath. On top. It is UNdesirable to have undercambered
elevators on canards. It IS desireable to have a slight REFLEX (reverse
camber near the trailing edge) on the elevators of canard airplanes.
This is one distinct reason that the choice of the LS(1)-0417MOD
airfoil was such a POOR CHOICE for a canard airfoil, despite the fact
that it has been made to work. IIRC, the LS(1) canard was rumored to be
the breaking point between Rutan and the rest of QAC.

David J. Gall

----Original Message----
From: paulbuckley@...
Date: Oct 17, 2006 13:28
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Subj: Re: [Q-LIST] Flight characteristics questions

Dave

As a matter of interest, an old method of achieving trim was to 'dope'
a length of string along the airfoil trailing edge, varying the length
to achieve the desired effect.
Do you think that this method could be used underneath the GU
elevators as an alternative to camber, if only as a temporary
explorative measure?

Paul Buckley
Cheshire
England


New central TW locations (Low winds please)

David <quickieflying@...>
 

Jon,
I concur after my trip last month thru Nebraska and Wyoming. I had
the same experience at Crete, NB. and all of Wyoming mostly Cheyenne
where I landed with 45 to 50 mph winds luckily they were down the
runway but that didn't help taxi to Sky Harbor where I got spun
around and felt like I was going to get flipped. I also was met by
two crew that had me tied down before I could get out of my plane.
Nice folks for sure.
I think we need to find a place that minimizes the likelihood of
wind, the best we can.

David Hiatt


Ah yes, I remember it like it was only yesterday...

The flight started early AM in Helena, MT with a Rotax 503 Q1
headed for
Ottawa, KS with an overnight at Bound's place in Grant, NE.
Approaching Billings MT, moderate rain and stratus conditions set
in, lasted about 45 minutes. The Q1 would maintain altitude at full
throttle and full aft stick in the rain - barely. That was a fun
hour - I used both arms to hold that stick back and thought my right
wrist/forearm would either never recover or I would end up looking
like Popeye ('cept cuter)! Where can I land this thing!!!!!

Flying across Wyoming is always a treat. Flying along at 8500'
MSL, scraping the ground is always great fun. About an hour out from
Casper I started noticing uncommanded roll changes. A little later
and I was fighting like crazy to stay right side up - at that point
I knew that I was fighting some horrendous winds. The intervening
time was pure terror trying
to figure out if I had some sort of flight control problem or
structural failure. Precautionary landing on the moon (Wyoming) was
considered as was I-25 but decided against both. The only airport
that I could find that had a runway aligned with the wind was
Douglas, WY. Wished we had GPS back then as I bet my ground speed
from Casper to Douglas was awesome with that wind.

The landing at Douglas was a VERY hard fight with the wind about
20-30 degrees off my nose. The winds were howling so bad that I was
afraid to turn off the runway for fear of being flipped over. I
called the FBO, they came out and walked me in with guys on both
wing tips. In fact, they held the Q while I got out and then,
without letting go, we walked it into a hangar. The FBO's wind-o-
meter showed 52 kt winds gusting over 60 kts - it only went to 60
kts and was max'ing out during the gusts. I stayed the night there,
I had lost the urge to fly.....

Bounds is right, Wyoming has some wind!!! Stay safe out there
Paul - I admire you!!

Will save the "Cruising at 14,000' cause Bounds is afraid of the
ground", "Scud running with Charlie Harris", "EMERGENCY! Bad gas at
Salina, KS", and "Watch Out!!! Quickies in the pattern" stories from
that trip for another day.

Oh, VG's were installed a few weeks after that trip

Jon
Robert Bounds
The fall of the year is generally much less windy out here on the
plains.
There is no way to plan for the weather but I don't think the wind
is really
a consideration. It's not any worse here than anywhere else. Now
Wyoming,
that's another story. Ask Finley about having to radio the FBO in
Wyoming
to get some guys to come out and hold down his Quickie so he could
get out.
:-)
Bounds


Re: Flight characteristics questions

Danny Creech <dannycreech@...>
 

Yeah, stupid me. I knew I was going to get it on this one. GRIN

Danny Creech

Jim Patillo <logistics_engineering@...> wrote:


Danny,

When you pull the stick back on a Q in flight, the elevator is
deflected down and the result is the nose goes up. Its a canard.

Jim Patillo

--- In Q-LIST@..., Danny Creech <dannycreech@...> wrote:

"David J. Gall" <David@...> wrote:
Without sparrow strainers, when the airplane inadvertently goes
faster than
its trimmed airspeed, the slight undercamber of the LS(1) elevator
causes
aerodynamic force that pushes the trailing edge of the elevator
up. This
lets the airplane's nose come down and allows the airplane to
accelerate to
a yet-higher speed. NOT GOOD!


Couple of points here.

1. If the TRAILING edge of an elevator goes up, then the nose of
the aircraft goes up. Not down. I re-read David's post several times
just to make sure I wasn't missing something.


2. More important though is: Are there any other ways to fix
this problem without having to put sparrow strainers on?? They
increase drag, stick out being easy to damage from airshow goers,
and all in all they look ugly. They look like someone didn't design
something right and they had to add a fix.

Has anyone came up with some other way to fix this problem? Is
this problem only on the LS1 wing or do all of the Q2s and Q200s
have this problem? Would making a flush mounted tab (anti-servo or
something) into the elevator work?

,___
Capt. Danny Creech
^^ Not an aerodynamic engineer obviously.