Date   

Re: Ground Loops

Richard Hole <rickhole@...>
 

My old philosophy prof said, "All generalities are false, including this
one."


If the gear housing is attached properly to the wing tip AND the
runway is greater than 50 feet, or you are on the side of the runway
away from the direction of the expected GL, it should be impossible
to hurt the Q. Of course, Murphy was an optimist!


Re: Ground Loops

Larry Severson
 

Larry,
I'd be a little more careful with the word never. There is always a way.
Earnest
If the gear housing is attached properly to the wing tip AND the runway is greater than 50 feet, or you are on the side of the runway away from the direction of the expected GL, it should be impossible to hurt the Q. Of course, Murphy was an optimist!


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Re: Ground Loops

Richard Hole <rickhole@...>
 

A newcomers comment: this is a very useful thread. Please share your
experiences along with theories and analysis. Thanks.


Re: Ground Loops

Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
 

I have done 2 ground loops (so far). One when the tail wheel broke off on a runway center thumper light and one when the wheel camber got so bad I couldn't stop it. Both were at around 50 mph. In both cases the plane turned 90 degrees to the left and quickly stopped. In both cases the plane continued basically down the centerline. In the first case the tail lifted about 4 feet and at the end of the loop it slammed into the runway and crushed the tail skin just forward of the tail fin. It stops real fast when going sideways.

The Q200 isn't the easiest plane to ground loop but it is the safest to ground loop. Given a choice of hitting the fence at the end of the runway or forcing a ground loop, I'm pushing the left rudder petal to the floor every time!

Have a Safe 2007!
Mike Q200 1000+ hours


larry severson wrote:

The fear of ground loops is correct when dealing with ME 109s and Piper Cubs. Wing tip mangling and even cartwheels can result. Narrow gear reduces the number of ground loops, but greatly increase the risk!

The bad news is that the Q, with its excessively wide gear, is easy to ground loop. The good news is that a GL will NEVER result in getting a wing tip or cartwheel. There is no safer plane anywhere when it comes to a GL. In fact, this factor can be a safety factor once it is fully understood.

Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Re: Ground Loops

Larry Severson
 

The ground loop does not do much damage but its the stuff you run into and off of that causes the damage and it is darned hard to avoid obstacles when you are out of control.
I agree with your statement about out of control; however, I have found that on a dry runway (do we land on any other type?) full right rudder and right brake (or left) will result in an abrupt pivot to the right (or left) and a stop. Due to the design of the Q bird, this is NOT the out of control maneuver that we fear. It is important to keep the full rudder and brake until the plane is stopped, or out of control surely could come into play.

It is popular to say that the Q is not like other planes. But how many of those saying that realize that it really isn't. I would not try this trick with any other plane that I have ever seen. The first time I did it was desperation because I was heading for the weeds AGAIN. I was terrified the whole time due to the abruptness of the maneuver. Plane did a 180 virtually in place, the engine stopped, dust flew, and my heart raced. I got out, turned the plane down the runway towards the taxi way, started the engine, and casually taxied to the barn. Of course, I inspected the plane; but, like QAC published, there was no damage at all. I have 4 flights since then. Now if I can only solve my engine heating problems!


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


tools

Larry Severson
 

I have a PDF file available for anyone who contacts me showing exactly how Jim Emons created 4 perfect gear leg fairings in less than 2 hours for less than $4. Contact me direct and I will send it to you.



Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Re: Ground Loops

James Doyle <jdoyle1941@...>
 

The ground loop does not do much damage but its the stuff you run into and off of that causes the damage and it is darned hard to avoid obstacles when you are out of control.

Jim Doyle

----- Original Message -----
From: larry severson
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 5:48 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Ground Loops


The fear of ground loops is correct when dealing with ME 109s and
Piper Cubs. Wing tip mangling and even cartwheels can result. Narrow
gear reduces the number of ground loops, but greatly increase the risk!

The bad news is that the Q, with its excessively wide gear, is easy
to ground loop. The good news is that a GL will NEVER result in
getting a wing tip or cartwheel. There is no safer plane anywhere
when it comes to a GL. In fact, this factor can be a safety factor
once it is fully understood.

Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...






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Ground Loops

Larry Severson
 

The fear of ground loops is correct when dealing with ME 109s and Piper Cubs. Wing tip mangling and even cartwheels can result. Narrow gear reduces the number of ground loops, but greatly increase the risk!

The bad news is that the Q, with its excessively wide gear, is easy to ground loop. The good news is that a GL will NEVER result in getting a wing tip or cartwheel. There is no safer plane anywhere when it comes to a GL. In fact, this factor can be a safety factor once it is fully understood.

Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Re: Ground Loops

MartinErni@...
 

In a message dated 1/2/2007 7:06:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
larry2@... writes:

The good news is that a GL will NEVER result in
getting a wing tip or cartwheel.


Larry,
I'd be a little more careful with the word never. There is always a way.
Earnest


Re: LS-1 elevators

shoskins@...
 

Gary, As Ernest said, 1/4" is correct. That is the design of this particular
airfoil.
Sam Hoskins -


Re: Flats, Ground Loops, and Skids

Larry Severson
 


Could you elaborate on the ground loops that you have purposely initiated?
Do you think your procedure could produce repeatable results and be taught as
a last resort method?
A ground loop is always a last resort.

For example, does one initiate a hard rudder followed
by the full application of both brakes to induce a skid along the runway
centerline?
A skid will wear the tires and possibly blow one or both. If applying both brakes, why would one apply full rudder?

Or do you just initiate hard rudder with moderate or no braking?
The start of a ground loop is a loss of control, usually caused by uneven braking.

I
did my share of skid management while driving in Oklahoma on icy days.
A skid may result in a ground loop, but is not necessary.

Based upon the best theories of traction, no skid can stop a vehicle faster
than a controlled stop with traction controlled.
True; however, a ground loop in an a/c may not be a skid. In fact, in my ground loops, no skid was involved. The plane started to divert from the desired direction down the runway. Once I felt the possibility existed that I would end up in the weeds, I gave full rudder in the direction of the diversion and applied full braking on the same side. The plane immediately swapped ends and stopped. Before I learned to do this, I fought the diversion and ended up in the weeds with a broken canard after going across a ditch.

The stopping power of a
wheel is optimum just before it reaches the threshold at which it begins to
skid. Also, a vehicle, while in a skid, will continue in the direction of the
path taken when the skid is initiated. If you are pointed toward the edge of
the runway and enter a skid, expect to continue in that path. If you are
initiating a turn, you can expect to take a tangent path away from the circle of
turn.
All true; but this discussion started with a flat tire. This is NOT a skid situation. Kick the rudder in the direction of the flat tire and kill the forward momentum. The plane will pivot on the flat tire (8 foot radius). The good tire will now be 25 foot right (or left) of the centerline of the landing line with the a/c stopped.

This is an emergency technique, and should be treated as such. But I will use it before hitting a fence/plane/obstruction every time. It is also a good reason for the minimum runway width being 50+ feet.

Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Re: Flats, Ground Loops, and Skids

britmcman99
 

Larry:

It sounds like we could have a new and exciting field competition for our
next fly-in. Extreme Ground Looping. Maybe someday we could have our own
Olympic sport.

I seriously doubt you could have any idea where you will end up upon
initiating a ground loop. It seems to be a combination of unknown turning forces
combined with an equally interesting set of unknown skids (loss of traction).


Could you elaborate on the ground loops that you have purposely initiated?
Do you think your procedure could produce repeatable results and be taught as
a last resort method? For example, does one initiate a hard rudder followed
by the full application of both brakes to induce a skid along the runway
centerline? Or do you just initiate hard rudder with moderate or no braking? I
did my share of skid management while driving in Oklahoma on icy days.


Based upon the best theories of traction, no skid can stop a vehicle faster
than a controlled stop with traction controlled. The stopping power of a
wheel is optimum just before it reaches the threshold at which it begins to
skid. Also, a vehicle, while in a skid, will continue in the direction of the
path taken when the skid is initiated. If you are pointed toward the edge of
the runway and enter a skid, expect to continue in that path. If you are
initiating a turn, you can expect to take a tangent path away from the circle of
turn.

Regards,

Phil


Re: Flats?

Larry Severson
 

At 11:05 AM 12/31/2006, you wrote:

A flat on a conventional gear IS a major issue. I spend a lot of time
making sure my wheels and brakes are in good condition.
Both flats and dragging brakes are a serious problem. Ground loops are embarrassing; however, they are relatively painless with the tip gear. I have 5 ground loops. The last 3 were deliberate. When I found it difficult to control the direction, I slammed the rudder in the direction I was being pulled. The highest speed that I have done this is 55mph; however, at any speed I would do this before I would go into the weeds (or other airplanes).

The one time I tried to control the plane instead of the GL, I caused a bit of damage to my plane. With GLs, no damage - only embarrassment.


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


LS-1 elevators

Gary
 

I am starting to fill and sand the elevators for a LS-1 canard Q200,
and it appears that the trailiing edge will end up at about 1/4'
thick. Is this correct? I don't have the plans for the LS-1 canard in
my hands. The glass to glass bond on the trailing edge leaves the
majority of the filling to be done on the top surface. Is this
correct ? Should I extend the lower surface to make the trailing edge
thinner ? Any comments are welcome.

Thanks,

Gary


Re: carburetors

James Doyle <jdoyle1941@...>
 

I have an Ellison EFS-2 that I ran for 900+ hours on a C-85 that worked well. It is for sale but I would talk to Ellison about using it on a Jab 3300. If you are interested contact me off the list at jdoyle1941@...

Jim Doyle

----- Original Message -----
From: noosaflyingclub
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:34 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] carburetors


Hi,
I am looking at throttle body carbs as an option for the Jab 3300
because the Bing runs rich above 2800rpm and cannot be leaned off and I
think that is costing power and fuel.
Aero flow carbs reads OK but does anyone have experience with these? (I
think the needle is straight.)Is a fuel bowl type preferred? What is
the faithful choice for the 0-200?
Is it a Marvel Schebler?.
Any ideas are welcome.
And have a safe and prosperous new year.
Peter H






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Q-builders in Mexico?

Sam Hoskins <shoskins@...>
 

Hola. I will be in Torreon, Coahuila, Mexico for the week. Are there any
Quickie builders in that vicinity?

Sam Hoskins



www.samhoskins.blogspot.com

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/index.htm


Re: LS-1 elevators

MartinErni@...
 

.25" or a little more is about right for the LS1 trailing edge.


Contact the Bruski ;o)

Bruce Crain
 

Sammy could you send me your phone number? Don't make me hunt you down
on the Internet.
Send it to <jcrain2@...>

You da' bes' Bro
Bruski





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Re: Flats?

Bruce Crain
 

Tahlequah, OK is right Sammy. I landed there after the accident and
spoke with the FBO for a short time about it. I don't remember the
type of aircraft. I am sure your right.
Happy New Year!!!!
Bruce
P.S. I may call you tomorrow about aileron bushings as I am going to
try to take out some of the looseness in mine.




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carburetors

noosaflyingclub <peterjfharris@...>
 

Hi,
I am looking at throttle body carbs as an option for the Jab 3300
because the Bing runs rich above 2800rpm and cannot be leaned off and I
think that is costing power and fuel.
Aero flow carbs reads OK but does anyone have experience with these? (I
think the needle is straight.)Is a fuel bowl type preferred? What is
the faithful choice for the 0-200?
Is it a Marvel Schebler?.
Any ideas are welcome.
And have a safe and prosperous new year.
Peter H