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Re: Lithium Battery???
MartinErni@...
Way to go Phil
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Earnest
In a message dated 10/8/2010 9:44:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
britmcman@... writes: I remember as a small child wanting to be an Engineer. And by saying "Engineer" I mean the kind of guy that manages running a train. That is what I associated that with a hat I must have had when I was little. It was an engineer's hat as I knew it. If you are a train Engineer, then you rock! I had a thought that batteries of any type aren't the problem, it's heat dissipation. It occurs to me that someone could invent a Lithium Ion battery that has a sufficient amount of heat sink to dispel any heat related issue. It could have standard or lower weight but potentially very high volume that could occupy some high volume space like the area behind the cockpit. Now this is all off topic and if you are still reading you either might be interested in batteries or you may be an idiot. But just as a consolation prize for hanging in there and finishing the read, I am happy to announce that I too have conducted a successful engine run on a Q-200 N84RC built by Rusty Cowles, an 1100 plus hours IFR Q-200 that is coming out of about 5 years of mouth balls. Ain't life grand. By the way, it functions with a garden tractor variety 12 volt battery. Phil Lankford On Oct 8, 2010, at 5:57 PM, _Armilite@... (mailto:Armilite@...) wrote: Hello:of these light weight Lithium Batteries in your plane for electrical power,Cell Phones, laptops, GPS's, PDA's, ipads, etc, that you may also haveLithium Batteries in that you carry in your plane now, maybe charge or powerfrom your planes electrical system. They pose the same safety problems. Likethe other guy said, it's a weight issue as well as a safety issue.them in use around the world in everything you can image, it does make goodSears lead acid battery having an electrical fire just doesn't bring so muchaccident. I'm pretty sure, more engines used in airplanes fail, than Lithium Batteriesever catch fire in normal use.have had problems, etc, before I bought one. If there is a problem with atips. Just do a little research before you buy. Look at all your options, ask a lot of questions. Their not all the same. Consult places like Consumer Reports,tax dollars at work. If, all you do, is look for the cheapest in anythingyou buy, you usually get what you pay for. Making blanket statements don'thelp anyone, FACTS DO.being strapped down or not being strapped down correctly, straps broke, andthe load shifted (crashed against something else, which may have caused the fireto happen in the first place. Or the fork lift driver that bumped into thefender bender and the load shifted in his truck, hit the brakes hard to avoidand accident or the load in a train boxcar that had severe slack action andthe load shifted, etc.big steep hills, trains go into emergency stop all the time, every day. Weof trains per day across the USA. Every time we catch another train, we gofrom 70MPH to a stop in a very short time. Average 15-20 stops in a 197 miletrip. So how long is the USA? That's a lot of stops and starts coast to coast.people use a surge protector in the their plane, airport, home, car, etc? Sohave all the FACTS, then make an informed decision, not just a knee jerk[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Lithium Battery???
Rich Gillen
Hello:
A few points, I would like to bring up. If your worried about using one of these light weight Lithium Batteries in your plane for electrical power, if you don't need to save the weight, then don't, but what about all the Cell Phones, laptops, GPS's, PDA's, ipads, etc, that you may also have Lithium Batteries in that you carry in your plane now, maybe charge or power from your planes electrical system. They pose the same safety problems. Like the other guy said, it's a weight issue as well as a safety issue. My understanding of the problem is with the Lithium coming into contact with air, from a short, over charging, or crash. With many millions of them in use around the world in everything you can image, it does make good headlines in the news. Something like a car, boat, airplane with an old Sears lead acid battery having an electrical fire just doesn't bring so much sensational news today, unless a lot of people are killed in the accident. I'm pretty sure, more engines used in airplanes fail, than Lithium Batteries ever catch fire in normal use. Like anything, I would do the research of who makes them, what brands have had problems, etc, before I bought one. If there is a problem with a certain brand there is probably much info on the net at your finger tips. Just do a little research before you buy. Look at all your options, ask a lot of questions. Their not all the same. Consult places like Consumer Reports, look at what brand the US military may use or have tested already, your tax dollars at work. If, all you do, is look for the cheapest in anything you buy, you usually get what you pay for. Making blanket statements don't help anyone, FACTS DO. Saying a pallet of Lithium Batteries once caught fire in a planes cargo hold is not all the FACTS. I guess you never heard of something not being strapped down or not being strapped down correctly, straps broke, and the load shifted (crashed against something else, which may have caused the fire to happen in the first place. Or the fork lift driver that bumped into the pallet when it was at the storage warehouse and didn't say anything, or dropped it when moving it, etc. Or the truck driver that may have had a fender bender and the load shifted in his truck, hit the brakes hard to avoid and accident or the load in a train boxcar that had severe slack action and the load shifted, etc. I run 100-180 car trains 70 MPH and loads are shifted all the time, back and forth in box cars, flat cars, etc. We go up big steep hills and down big steep hills, trains go into emergency stop all the time, every day. We have around 8000 locomotives on just the UP Railroad, so that is a lot of trains per day across the USA. Every time we catch another train, we go from 70MPH to a stop in a very short time. Average 15-20 stops in a 197 mile trip. So how long is the USA? That's a lot of stops and starts coast to coast. I'm sure they shift in ships to, which go up and down, side to side. How many laptop computers have poor power supplies, poor fans, etc? How many people use a surge protector in the their plane, airport, home, car, etc? So have all the FACTS, then make an informed decision, not just a knee jerk reaction. Rich Gillen Ames, IA Just my 2 cents
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Side stick forces?
Leon
I'm wondering if anyone can point me to a source of information regarding forces used on side sticks like we use in the Q's and other home built planes like the BD-5's and EZ's?
Has anyone in this group read any report of actual testing of pitch stick force per "G"? I've found a few old military tests back when they were transitioning to fly by wire side sticks that have some general forces, but the goal of those tests seemed to be more toward finding the best force/degree of stick movement. I'd like to find some real world testing numbers for our type of aircraft, which should be more relevant. I would like this info so I can properly argue a pending ASTM standard change. The battery thread sounds like the same one the ASTM has been going through trying to get some workable standards for electric LSA's. It's not going to be easy ...... or quick. =============== Leon McAtee
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Thanks to all
Thanks for the support guys. I am going to do a full engine run up this
weekend and than I have to relinquish the Hanger (think garage) back to my wifes' car and my vintage 1971 VW. I will spend the rest of the winter taking apart the flying surfaces and than more fuselage and interior work. If anyone would like to see photos of this project I have some on my facebook page. Just friend me and I will put you in. Jon
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Re: E-Pad
Darrell Daniels <log@...>
Thanks Bruce,
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I still have to get my medical back but I think I will be able to. One of my best friends is an A and P and he is going to help me out. Like he said it needs to be flying one way or the other. so I do have some help getting into gear. I have every thing I need to make it fly except the propeller. Darrell
----- Original Message -----
From: <jcrain2@...> To: <Q-LIST@...> Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] E-Pad Great news Darrell! Maybe the Quickies are coming back! Several of our guys are getting close to completion! It's been kind of lonely. "The more the merrier"! And it is a great efficient airframe. Hopefully the Johnson brothers will join us this next year also!
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Re: E-Pad
Great news Darrell! Maybe the Quickies are coming back! Several of our guys are getting close to completion! It's been kind of lonely. "The more the merrier"! And it is a great efficient airframe. Hopefully the Johnson brothers will join us this next year also!
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I am jumping up and down inside! Bruce
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Darrell Daniels" <log@...> To: <Q-LIST@...> Subject: [Q-LIST] E-Pad Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 17:51:55 -0500 Can any of you tell me if the E-Pad with the 7 inch screen is something you can use to run gps and Terrain on. I know some of you use small computers but I am not quite up on it. Thanks Darrell. Oh By the way I made a big move , My airplane is at the airport in a hanger . Not flying yet but it will be. Thanks Darrell ____________________________________________________________ SHOCKING: 2010 Honda Civic for $1,732.09 BREAKING NEWS: Is this a SCAM? You WON'T believe what we found! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4cae6d9f1b548173e8dst05vuc
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Re: Battery power to weight ratio.
Isaksson Roger <scratchdeeper@...>
Yes the batteries in them selves, are a different topic, yes, but batteries as
a possible substitute as a weight saving factor in an airplane, I would say, is spot on, as , in this case, the possible weight saving is substantial. From that perspective, you might have something to ad, like , if there are any possible differences in how Lead Batteries compared with Lithium Ion batteries are acting and behaving with an alternator as a charger, , as most have experience of Litium Ion batteries from very small electronic appliance batteries, that require only a very small plug in type charging device, that gives a very steady current. The power to weight ratio is the appealing issue here, and with a man with your experience in batteries, if you could please tell, a couple of pro's and con's for people considering a straight substitute from a Lead Acid battery to a Litium Ion battery. I am sorry that a few bloggers started to go off topic on this subject like ......-"Don't wear clownshoes in a minefield"....and ...."Don't pet a burning dog"....."it's dangerous".......and then added links to clownshoes, minefields and burning dogs. Roger ________________________________ From: John Loram <johnl@...> To: Q-LIST@... Sent: Thu, October 7, 2010 11:34:38 AM Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio. As a EE that has been designing battery operated electronic instrumentation for forty years, I find battery technology endlessly fascinating, but it's wildly off topic on this forum. May I suggest that the conversation be moved to some other forum, such as ThunderSky, the group "for exchanging information and experience on large lithium-ion batteries. (there are several other battery groups)" thanks, -john- www.loram.org _____ From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of Isaksson Roger Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 11:01 PM To: Q-LIST@... Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio. If an issue was worth posting it must be worth researching, instead we got a one liner posing the hazards, but no research to back it up. On top of it all, someone else is suppose to do the research job. Let me pose a few others, on the same theme, that follows the same line of logic. Epoxy will eventually deteriorate, it will make a hell of a hillarious flight when the wings comes off....but I let you do the research. All wood props will eventually disintegrate in a poff, you better have a freeway clear of cars when that happens,....if your engine still is there,.....but I let you do the research. So here we have knowledge based only on 5 seconds snippets from newsmedia regarding batteries, as the basis for an opinion about a possible in flight disaster, ande posed as a fact. Not to mention that this was an issue with the first generation LitIon batteries, not to mention that this was another set of batteries for small electronic appliances, not to mention that the supplier and the manufacturing technique was looked over and corrected, not to mention that bigger units are in use daily, with no ill effects, and so on. The only result such an approach will do is......just by the fact that it is posed as a danger, and then leave the board with a one liner, may very well inprint on the general flight community the idea that Lithium Ion batteries WILL mean an inflight fire, and some may based on that statement, very well not approach the subject, and Lithium Ion batteries will not be pursued. Let me turn this around and ask you a question. Do you still beat your wife? You see, it doesnt matter what you answer now, you will be wrong either way, because the idea that you are, or have been beating your wife, is assumed. I just posed the idea that you are beating your wife, and ran out on it, but leaving the idea behind. ....just as you left, with posing the idea that in flight fires are coming your way, if you are using Litium Ion Batteries. Extraordinatry claims demands extraordianry proof, so, while you are not expected to be an expert on the subject, at least do some basic research on it first before you toss out statements of that nature. If we find that Hydrogen would be a feasible way to power our aircrafts, ....please don't come back with a one liner like......-"Be careful....remember Hindenburg" Roger ________________________________ From: Rick Hole <r.hole@... <mailto:r.hole%40ieee.org> > To: Q-LIST@... <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, October 6, 2010 7:04:34 PM Subject: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio. I am wondering about the talk of banning lithium batteries from air shipment due to fire hazard. But I haven't researched the issue, just bringing it up to encourage someone else to do it for me :-) Having a battery go up in flames could make for an exciting flight. Rick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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E-Pad
Darrell Daniels <log@...>
Can any of you tell me if the E-Pad with the 7 inch screen is something you can use to run gps and Terrain on. I know some of you use small computers but I am not quite up on it. Thanks Darrell. Oh By the way I made a big move , My airplane is at the airport in a hanger . Not flying yet but it will be. Thanks Darrell
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Re: Battery power to weight ratio.
John Loram <johnl@...>
As a EE that has been designing battery operated electronic instrumentation
for forty years, I find battery technology endlessly fascinating, but it's wildly off topic on this forum. May I suggest that the conversation be moved to some other forum, such as ThunderSky, the group "for exchanging information and experience on large lithium-ion batteries. (there are several other battery groups)" thanks, -john- www.loram.org _____ From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of Isaksson Roger Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 11:01 PM To: Q-LIST@... Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio. If an issue was worth posting it must be worth researching, instead we got a one liner posing the hazards, but no research to back it up. On top of it all, someone else is suppose to do the research job. Let me pose a few others, on the same theme, that follows the same line of logic. Epoxy will eventually deteriorate, it will make a hell of a hillarious flight when the wings comes off....but I let you do the research. All wood props will eventually disintegrate in a poff, you better have a freeway clear of cars when that happens,....if your engine still is there,.....but I let you do the research. So here we have knowledge based only on 5 seconds snippets from newsmedia regarding batteries, as the basis for an opinion about a possible in flight disaster, ande posed as a fact. Not to mention that this was an issue with the first generation LitIon batteries, not to mention that this was another set of batteries for small electronic appliances, not to mention that the supplier and the manufacturing technique was looked over and corrected, not to mention that bigger units are in use daily, with no ill effects, and so on. The only result such an approach will do is......just by the fact that it is posed as a danger, and then leave the board with a one liner, may very well inprint on the general flight community the idea that Lithium Ion batteries WILL mean an inflight fire, and some may based on that statement, very well not approach the subject, and Lithium Ion batteries will not be pursued. Let me turn this around and ask you a question. Do you still beat your wife? You see, it doesnt matter what you answer now, you will be wrong either way, because the idea that you are, or have been beating your wife, is assumed. I just posed the idea that you are beating your wife, and ran out on it, but leaving the idea behind. ....just as you left, with posing the idea that in flight fires are coming your way, if you are using Litium Ion Batteries. Extraordinatry claims demands extraordianry proof, so, while you are not expected to be an expert on the subject, at least do some basic research on it first before you toss out statements of that nature. If we find that Hydrogen would be a feasible way to power our aircrafts, ....please don't come back with a one liner like......-"Be careful....remember Hindenburg" Roger ________________________________ From: Rick Hole <r.hole@... <mailto:r.hole%40ieee.org> > To: Q-LIST@... <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, October 6, 2010 7:04:34 PM Subject: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio. I am wondering about the talk of banning lithium batteries from air shipment due to fire hazard. But I haven't researched the issue, just bringing it up to encourage someone else to do it for me :-) Having a battery go up in flames could make for an exciting flight. Rick
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Re: Battery power to weight ratio.
I believe that is related to pallets of batteries in the cargo hold, not
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your spare laptop battery. Charlie
In a message dated 10/6/2010 8:04:45 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
r.hole@... writes: I am wondering about the talk of banning lithium batteries from air shipment due to fire hazard. But I haven't researched the issue, just bringing it up to encourage someone else to do it for me :-) Having a battery go up in flames could make for an exciting flight. Rick
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Re: Battery Fire Information/Video
captainboyd@...
Folks,
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I'm new to the forum (Q2 Wannabe), but very familiar with recent info on Lithium Battery fires (most commonly found in laptops). In my day job (corporate pilot) my department has discussed this and feel better prepared to manage an on-board lithium battery fire (scenario: a passenger is charging a laptop) thanks to the FAA's recent instructional video. The 1st link is a youtube video of a LAX laptop fire for emphasis. The 2nd link is the FAA video: LAX laptop fire: http://m.youtube.com/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmlZggVrF9VI&v=mlZggVrF9VI&gl=US FAA video: http://m.youtube.com/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dgcd34tt8YPU&v=gcd34tt8YPU&gl=US In short, it's the temperature of the burning lithium battery that is most problematic. These batteries would be a huge weight saver in an experimental airplane, but the packaging has to improve in my opinion. Beans Wilmington, DE Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...> Sender: Q-LIST@... Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 22:04:34 To: <Q-LIST@...> Reply-To: Q-LIST@... Subject: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio. I am wondering about the talk of banning lithium batteries from air shipment due to fire hazard. But I haven't researched the issue, just bringing it up to encourage someone else to do it for me :-) Having a battery go up in flames could make for an exciting flight. Rick
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Re: Battery power to weight ratio.
Isaksson Roger <scratchdeeper@...>
If an issue was worth posting it must be worth researching, instead we got a one
liner posing the hazards, but no research to back it up. On top of it all, someone else is suppose to do the research job. Let me pose a few others, on the same theme, that follows the same line of logic. Epoxy will eventually deteriorate, it will make a hell of a hillarious flight when the wings comes off....but I let you do the research. All wood props will eventually disintegrate in a poff, you better have a freeway clear of cars when that happens,....if your engine still is there,.....but I let you do the research. So here we have knowledge based only on 5 seconds snippets from newsmedia regarding batteries, as the basis for an opinion about a possible in flight disaster, ande posed as a fact. Not to mention that this was an issue with the first generation LitIon batteries, not to mention that this was another set of batteries for small electronic appliances, not to mention that the supplier and the manufacturing technique was looked over and corrected, not to mention that bigger units are in use daily, with no ill effects, and so on. The only result such an approach will do is......just by the fact that it is posed as a danger, and then leave the board with a one liner, may very well inprint on the general flight community the idea that Lithium Ion batteries WILL mean an inflight fire, and some may based on that statement, very well not approach the subject, and Lithium Ion batteries will not be pursued. Let me turn this around and ask you a question. Do you still beat your wife? You see, it doesnt matter what you answer now, you will be wrong either way, because the idea that you are, or have been beating your wife, is assumed. I just posed the idea that you are beating your wife, and ran out on it, but leaving the idea behind. ....just as you left, with posing the idea that in flight fires are coming your way, if you are using Litium Ion Batteries. Extraordinatry claims demands extraordianry proof, so, while you are not expected to be an expert on the subject, at least do some basic research on it first before you toss out statements of that nature. If we find that Hydrogen would be a feasible way to power our aircrafts, ....please don't come back with a one liner like......-"Be careful....remember Hindenburg" Roger ________________________________ From: Rick Hole <r.hole@...> To: Q-LIST@... Sent: Wed, October 6, 2010 7:04:34 PM Subject: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio. I am wondering about the talk of banning lithium batteries from air shipment due to fire hazard. But I haven't researched the issue, just bringing it up to encourage someone else to do it for me :-) Having a battery go up in flames could make for an exciting flight. Rick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Battery power to weight ratio.
Rick Hole
I am wondering about the talk of banning lithium batteries from air shipment
due to fire hazard. But I haven't researched the issue, just bringing it up to encourage someone else to do it for me :-) Having a battery go up in flames could make for an exciting flight. Rick
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Re: Baggage pods
hargin
Didn't notice any difference. Thanks for asking.
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--- On Wed, 10/6/10, Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:
From: Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Baggage pods To: "Q-LIST" <Q-LIST@...> Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 6:52 PM You go first. How was the ride home without the spinner? Sam On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:42 PM, mitch hargin <hargin@...> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://www.quickiebuilders.org Yahoo! Groups Links
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Re: Battery power to weight ratio.
Isaksson Roger <scratchdeeper@...>
About memory effect.....you are right, and I will immediately execute the slave
that wrote that for me. Again, I am far from an expert in this field, but are intrigued by the big difference in weight. Also, yes they have ways to go, but the point where they are now, is pretty amazing. As to high Amp, and an ability to discharge like, to a starter motor...well electric airplanes, electric cars and as one pointed out here, an electric drag bike, ..that takes a lot of Amps , theyre running in the 7 second bracket, and it's not excactly a trickle charger needed for that. It need wide open discharge to accomplish that. Agree.... the lead Acid battery is doing good, in that respect as well, but all I wanted to point out is a tremendeous weight saving , with more modern developed batteries. Our use of exotic batteries in cellphones and laptops is a constant use, and I don't think that it is too fair of a comparison , when translating it to a car or an airplane use. Fact remain, Lithium Ion batteries have many times more recharge ability over a lead acid battery, fact remain, Lithium Ion batteries have more than ten times storing capacity per weight over lead acid batteries...... those facts can't be undone. A cellphone, or laptop used every day, and put on a charger everyday goes through the battery life cycle pretty quick. For an airplane, in normal use, it would take forever to go through the cycles. I am not selling anything, also I don't represent a battery company, basically I dont care if anyone wants to stay with lead acid batteries, and more developed batteries might not be for everybody, conservatism has it's virtues. It's up to each and everybody, of course, to weigh back and forth between cost, and weight savings. If something that is ten times lighter, doing the same thing as their lead acid battery, ....at least from that stand point I would not hesitate, it's more a cost issue than anything else. They are expensive yes, but I have seen people pay huge sums for efficiency improvements, aerodynamic and engine wise, so I bet it is not long before these batteries are making serious inways in the flying community. I am sure there will be some discussions about the pro's and cons about them, there is probably a whole science about them, but all in all, theyre coming. Roger ________________________________ From: Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...> To: Q-LIST@... Sent: Wed, October 6, 2010 2:41:57 PM Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio. Good email but one error and one detail... NiCd batterys have the memory effect, NiMh don't. All the watt/KG numbers are good for storage batteries and could be used in say an all electric plane, but our piston engines need a starting battery that can deliver hundreds of amps for seconds and I think lead acid still fills that need the best, also they are way cheap compared to the others. I find the NiMh cells for cameras, ect tend to die in 2 years no mater what you do to them. I find the Lithium used in my tablet PC seem to make about 4 years before not holding much charge. They got a long way to go on battery's, Mike Q200 Isaksson Roger wrote: There was a jet driven ultralight at Oshkosh , some time ago, also not too improvements in battery technology lately. look into that I am unaware of, if a direct replacement from a lead acid unit long run. give, it is definitely a consideration for aircrafts. and there might be a couple of weeks delivery from suppliers, and some are fatter, and still fly. to it? How much does it cost. nearest dealer. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Light Weight: 1.7lbs BATTERY QUESTION
Rich Gillen
Hello Mike:
Check out this guy on YouTube. I just wish they could put some spec's with it. Engine, fuel use, thrust, etc. _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XbTzfAFNgE_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XbTzfAFNgE) I probably should have said for Rotax 2 cycle engines, which a 618UL is like less than 48 cubic inches, a 914 is only 56 cubic inches, even though I'm sure you could find a lighter Lithium battery that would meet your 0-200's starter requirements to save some weight than what your using now. Most kit planes are in the new LSA or expermental class where weight isn't as big an issue as ultralights. Most, so called ultralights aren't really true ultralights either. They don't meet all the rules. Example: A T-Bird I tail dragger with a 447, 5 gal of fuel and basic intruments just makes ultralight weight. By using one of these new light weight batties, he may have an option to upgrade to a 503 or even a 582. I don't know of any ultralights using an 0-200. Even most kit planes I have seen don't use the 0-200. They are a great engine, but cost way to much. A New, O-200 cost $22,000-$24,000+ for 100HP, Rotax 914 $22,000-$25,000 for 100-120HP. Yes, there are Pro's and Con's of both 2 cycle and 4 cycle engines. Most engine failures, whether 2 cycle or 4 cycle, almost all are human related. Not saying you can't find a once in a life time good deal on a used runout O-200, but most seem to average about $4000. But most rebuilds even cost $8000-$9000+. I'm in the process of building a stock Rotax 670, _97HP@6800RPM_ (mailto:97HP@6800RPM) per the dyno sheet. If I have it ported, mill the head, open up the carbs, dual pipes, etc, I can make even more HP or lower the RPM's and still stay in my target range of 90-100HP. It only weighs 2lbs more than a 582. That 2lb difference could be remedied by using grade 5 Titanium bolts in the engine versus steel, Carbon fiber brackets, light weight battery. A New 670 from the SkiDoo dealer was $1500 less carbs. or A Good complete used 670 $250 Rebuild kit $285 Labor to machine block for gear drive $150 E Gear drive New $1500 582/618 dual plug Head $600, I'm talking to some guys who make Billet dual plug heads $289-$399. Dual ignition $???----Still researching options. Yes, they have a lower TBO than the O-200, but a rebuild is only around $350 if you can do it yourself. They do make a Big Bore kit for the 670 to make it a 740. Does take some major machine work to the block and cylinders to do it. I have a 582/583 block and a spare set of std 670 cylinders that will fit, with minor grinding to make a Big Bore 582/583. Throw in a 617/618 crank. Hmmmm, still researching that. The 618UL made _74.6HP@6800rpm_ (mailto:74.6HP@6800rpm) . So a 582/583 big bore making _80-90HP@6800rpm_ (mailto:80-90HP@6800rpm) maybe possible. I find it odd that Terry didn't have any trouble and you did with the PC680. What starter do you use? How long and what size battery cables do you use? O-200 versus IO-320-E2D. Rich Gillen Ames, IA 2b. Re: Light Weight: 1.7lbs BATTERY QUESTIONPosted by: "Terry Adams" terrywadams@... tony54298 Date: Tue Oct 5, 2010 9:43 pm ((PDT)) Really? My PC680 has been starting my IO-320-E2D (not in a Q) for three years now. This is with an nine foot battery cable from behind the baggage compartment.to the starter. Terry< 2a. Re: Light Weight: 1.7lbs BATTERY QUESTION Posted by: "Mike Dwyer" mdwyer@... planedude_99 Date: Tue Oct 5, 2010 4:50 pm ((PDT)) That guy is crazy, but it would be way cool to see an ultralight go by making a turbine sound. There was a Stearman at Sun N Fun with a turbine. Totally impractical but what a hoot! Now to your question. That little battery may start a small turbine but the big compression spikes of a piston engine might be more of a challenge. I did start my 0-200A with a PC680 12AH, 680CCA battery (6x the rating, 15lbs) but if it didn't start on the first few blades then you had to wait a bit and crank a few more. Kind of not so good. Cessna starter. My battery is now a PC925 at 23 lbs and that works fine. All these AGM type battery's are real sensitive to overcharging. Once they bulge out they are dead, I killed my PC680, may it rest in peace. Fly Safe, Mike Q200
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Re: Baggage pods
You go first.
How was the ride home without the spinner? Sam On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:42 PM, mitch hargin <hargin@...> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Baggage pods
hargin
I saw lots of baggage pods on LongEZ, and VariEZ at Rough River. Has anyone ever tried it on a Q or Dragonfly?
Mitch Hargin Tri Q2 Dragonfly MKII
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Re: Battery power to weight ratio.
Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
Good email but one error and one detail...
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
NiCd batterys have the memory effect, NiMh don't. All the watt/KG numbers are good for storage batteries and could be used in say an all electric plane, but our piston engines need a starting battery that can deliver hundreds of amps for seconds and I think lead acid still fills that need the best, also they are way cheap compared to the others. I find the NiMh cells for cameras, ect tend to die in 2 years no mater what you do to them. I find the Lithium used in my tablet PC seem to make about 4 years before not holding much charge. They got a long way to go on battery's, Mike Q200 Isaksson Roger wrote:
There was a jet driven ultralight at Oshkosh , some time ago, also not too practical, guess it was most for fun, and just to have it done.
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Re: Battery power to weight ratio.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
In a message dated 10/6/2010 3:44:54 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
mdwyer@... writes: Good email but one error and one detail... NiCd batterys have the memory effect, NiMh don't. All the watt/KG numbers are good for storage batteries and could be used in say an all electric plane, but our piston engines need a starting battery that can deliver hundreds of amps for seconds and I think lead acid still fills that need the best, also they are way cheap compared to the others. I find the NiMh cells for cameras, ect tend to die in 2 years no mater what you do to them. I find the Lithium used in my tablet PC seem to make about 4 years before not holding much charge. They got a long way to go on battery's, Mike Q200 Isaksson Roger wrote: There was a jet driven ultralight at Oshkosh , some time ago, also nottoo practical, guess it was most for fun, and just to have it done.more. planet" ideal we are currently into, and with that a push for hybrids, andelectric cars.used for almost a hundred years now, but I must say that there has been somepretty big improvements in battery technology lately.and smaller electronic gizmos, plus Acid lead batteries for quite some time,and while they might have improved slightly, they have not made any biggerfarily decent step, but all in all they have pretty much been a heavy way tostore energy.come, and they have been around for a while, the downside with them, is that theytend to get a "memory" and need a complete discharge before being charged again,compact storage of electric energy. the first generation had some problem with thermalrunaway, ( exploding batteries) , but that is addressed now, plus the newergeneration Lithium Ion batteries took another big step up in ability to storeelectric energy in small and compact packages.like a lead acid battery, and can be charged an enormously amount of times,compared with a lead acid battery. So even if this might not be a lifetimebattery, at least where battery technology stands right now, it is as close as ithas got. recharge up to 80% of the original ability to take on charge. Lithium Ion batteriescounts around 1800- 2200 times, ( there are always brands that claim to bebetter than the rival brand, but either way, it is way way more than a lead acidbattery) cars etc. weight ratio and came up with some really interesting numbers.what it is suppose to do, as lightweight as possible.batteries.....................................................................................................................75W/Kg Cadmium.................................................................................................................................150 W/Kgsealed lead acid batteries) ........180W/KgHydride..........................................................................................................................980W/Kg .......................................................................................................................................1700W/Kg issues to look into that I am unaware of, if a direct replacement from a lead acidunit to a Lithium Ion battery pack is considered, but as a battery is a storageplace for electric energy, no matter what type of battery it is, so I don'tthink that there will be unsolvable issues.lasts so much longer than a Lead Acid, I wonder if this will be much of an issuein the long run.car....at least right for now anyway, but because of the dramatic weightdifference they give, it is definitely a consideration for aircrafts.are here on the market already.industry, and there might be a couple of weeks delivery from suppliers, and someare special orders, but this will hopefully ease up as time goes.to get fatter, and still fly.peace. engine on it.his ultralight airplane and was using a lightweight battery to start web linkIt looked like it said: _http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-ROTAX-BRP-ROTAX-587-580-581CC-STARTER-19to it? How much does it cost. 89-94-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53e3ebb810QQitemZ360306161680QQptZPersonal (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-ROTAX-BRP-ROTAX-587-580-581CC-STARTER-1989-94-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53e3ebb810QQitemZ36Q5fWatercraftQ5fParts_ ============================================================================6 packs find yourlisted below should work for a similar set up. A link to our website is nearest dealer. address. (Please be sure to copy all previous emails into any future questions) Please drop by and take a look! We hope you'll find the ------------------------------------ Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://www.quickiebuilders.org Yahoo! Groups Links
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