Date   

Re: Lithium Battery???

MartinErni@...
 

Way to go Phil
Earnest

In a message dated 10/8/2010 9:44:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
britmcman@... writes:




I remember as a small child wanting to be an Engineer. And by saying
"Engineer" I mean the kind of guy that manages running a train. That is what I
associated that with a hat I must have had when I was little. It was an
engineer's hat as I knew it. If you are a train Engineer, then you rock!

I had a thought that batteries of any type aren't the problem, it's heat
dissipation. It occurs to me that someone could invent a Lithium Ion battery
that has a sufficient amount of heat sink to dispel any heat related
issue. It could have standard or lower weight but potentially very high volume
that could occupy some high volume space like the area behind the cockpit.
Now this is all off topic and if you are still reading you either might be
interested in batteries or you may be an idiot. But just as a consolation
prize for hanging in there and finishing the read, I am happy to announce that
I too have conducted a successful engine run on a Q-200 N84RC built by
Rusty Cowles, an 1100 plus hours IFR Q-200 that is coming out of about 5 years
of mouth balls. Ain't life grand. By the way, it functions with a garden
tractor variety 12 volt battery.

Phil Lankford

On Oct 8, 2010, at 5:57 PM, _Armilite@... (mailto:Armilite@...)
wrote:

Hello:

A few points, I would like to bring up. If your worried about using one
of
these light weight Lithium Batteries in your plane for electrical power,
if you don't need to save the weight, then don't, but what about all the
Cell
Phones, laptops, GPS's, PDA's, ipads, etc, that you may also have
Lithium
Batteries in that you carry in your plane now, maybe charge or power
from
your planes electrical system. They pose the same safety problems. Like
the
other guy said, it's a weight issue as well as a safety issue.

My understanding of the problem is with the Lithium coming into contact
with air, from a short, over charging, or crash. With many millions of
them
in use around the world in everything you can image, it does make good
headlines in the news. Something like a car, boat, airplane with an old
Sears
lead acid battery having an electrical fire just doesn't bring so much
sensational news today, unless a lot of people are killed in the
accident. I'm
pretty sure, more engines used in airplanes fail, than Lithium Batteries
ever
catch fire in normal use.

Like anything, I would do the research of who makes them, what brands
have
had problems, etc, before I bought one. If there is a problem with a
certain brand there is probably much info on the net at your finger
tips. Just do
a little research before you buy. Look at all your options, ask a lot of
questions. Their not all the same. Consult places like Consumer Reports,
look at what brand the US military may use or have tested already, your
tax
dollars at work. If, all you do, is look for the cheapest in anything
you
buy, you usually get what you pay for. Making blanket statements don't
help
anyone, FACTS DO.

Saying a pallet of Lithium Batteries once caught fire in a planes cargo
hold is not all the FACTS. I guess you never heard of something not
being
strapped down or not being strapped down correctly, straps broke, and
the load
shifted (crashed against something else, which may have caused the fire
to
happen in the first place. Or the fork lift driver that bumped into the
pallet when it was at the storage warehouse and didn't say anything, or
dropped it when moving it, etc. Or the truck driver that may have had a
fender
bender and the load shifted in his truck, hit the brakes hard to avoid
and
accident or the load in a train boxcar that had severe slack action and
the
load shifted, etc.

I run 100-180 car trains 70 MPH and loads are shifted all the time, back
and forth in box cars, flat cars, etc. We go up big steep hills and down
big
steep hills, trains go into emergency stop all the time, every day. We
have around 8000 locomotives on just the UP Railroad, so that is a lot
of
trains per day across the USA. Every time we catch another train, we go
from
70MPH to a stop in a very short time. Average 15-20 stops in a 197 mile
trip.
So how long is the USA? That's a lot of stops and starts coast to coast.
I'm sure they shift in ships to, which go up and down, side to side. How
many laptop computers have poor power supplies, poor fans, etc? How many
people
use a surge protector in the their plane, airport, home, car, etc? So
have
all the FACTS, then make an informed decision, not just a knee jerk
reaction.

Rich Gillen
Ames, IA
Just my 2 cents

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Lithium Battery???

Rich Gillen
 

Hello:

A few points, I would like to bring up. If your worried about using one of
these light weight Lithium Batteries in your plane for electrical power,
if you don't need to save the weight, then don't, but what about all the Cell
Phones, laptops, GPS's, PDA's, ipads, etc, that you may also have Lithium
Batteries in that you carry in your plane now, maybe charge or power from
your planes electrical system. They pose the same safety problems. Like the
other guy said, it's a weight issue as well as a safety issue.

My understanding of the problem is with the Lithium coming into contact
with air, from a short, over charging, or crash. With many millions of them
in use around the world in everything you can image, it does make good
headlines in the news. Something like a car, boat, airplane with an old Sears
lead acid battery having an electrical fire just doesn't bring so much
sensational news today, unless a lot of people are killed in the accident. I'm
pretty sure, more engines used in airplanes fail, than Lithium Batteries ever
catch fire in normal use.

Like anything, I would do the research of who makes them, what brands have
had problems, etc, before I bought one. If there is a problem with a
certain brand there is probably much info on the net at your finger tips. Just do
a little research before you buy. Look at all your options, ask a lot of
questions. Their not all the same. Consult places like Consumer Reports,
look at what brand the US military may use or have tested already, your tax
dollars at work. If, all you do, is look for the cheapest in anything you
buy, you usually get what you pay for. Making blanket statements don't help
anyone, FACTS DO.

Saying a pallet of Lithium Batteries once caught fire in a planes cargo
hold is not all the FACTS. I guess you never heard of something not being
strapped down or not being strapped down correctly, straps broke, and the load
shifted (crashed against something else, which may have caused the fire to
happen in the first place. Or the fork lift driver that bumped into the
pallet when it was at the storage warehouse and didn't say anything, or
dropped it when moving it, etc. Or the truck driver that may have had a fender
bender and the load shifted in his truck, hit the brakes hard to avoid and
accident or the load in a train boxcar that had severe slack action and the
load shifted, etc.

I run 100-180 car trains 70 MPH and loads are shifted all the time, back
and forth in box cars, flat cars, etc. We go up big steep hills and down big
steep hills, trains go into emergency stop all the time, every day. We
have around 8000 locomotives on just the UP Railroad, so that is a lot of
trains per day across the USA. Every time we catch another train, we go from
70MPH to a stop in a very short time. Average 15-20 stops in a 197 mile trip.
So how long is the USA? That's a lot of stops and starts coast to coast.
I'm sure they shift in ships to, which go up and down, side to side. How
many laptop computers have poor power supplies, poor fans, etc? How many people
use a surge protector in the their plane, airport, home, car, etc? So have
all the FACTS, then make an informed decision, not just a knee jerk
reaction.

Rich Gillen
Ames, IA
Just my 2 cents


Side stick forces?

Leon
 

I'm wondering if anyone can point me to a source of information regarding forces used on side sticks like we use in the Q's and other home built planes like the BD-5's and EZ's?

Has anyone in this group read any report of actual testing of pitch stick force per "G"? I've found a few old military tests back when they were transitioning to fly by wire side sticks that have some general forces, but the goal of those tests seemed to be more toward finding the best force/degree of stick movement. I'd like to find some real world testing numbers for our type of aircraft, which should be more relevant.

I would like this info so I can properly argue a pending ASTM standard change.

The battery thread sounds like the same one the ASTM has been going through trying to get some workable standards for electric LSA's. It's not going to be easy ...... or quick.
===============
Leon McAtee


Thanks to all

Jon Swenson
 

Thanks for the support guys. I am going to do a full engine run up this
weekend and than I have to relinquish the Hanger (think garage) back to my
wifes' car and my vintage 1971 VW. I will spend the rest of the winter
taking apart the flying surfaces and than more fuselage and interior work.
If anyone would like to see photos of this project I have some on my
facebook page. Just friend me and I will put you in.
Jon


Re: E-Pad

Darrell Daniels <log@...>
 

Thanks Bruce,
I still have to get my medical back but I think I will be able to. One of my best friends is an A and P and he is going to help me out. Like he said it needs to be flying one way or the other. so I do have some help getting into gear. I have every thing I need to make it fly except the propeller. Darrell

----- Original Message -----
From: <jcrain2@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] E-Pad


Great news Darrell! Maybe the Quickies are coming back! Several of our guys are getting close to completion! It's been kind of lonely. "The more the merrier"! And it is a great efficient airframe. Hopefully the Johnson brothers will join us this next year also!
I am jumping up and down inside!
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Darrell Daniels" <log@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: [Q-LIST] E-Pad
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 17:51:55 -0500

Can any of you tell me if the E-Pad with the 7 inch screen is something you
can use to run gps and Terrain on. I know some of you use small computers
but I am not quite up on it. Thanks Darrell. Oh By the way I made a big
move , My airplane is at the airport in a hanger . Not flying yet but it
will be. Thanks Darrell



____________________________________________________________
SHOCKING: 2010 Honda Civic for $1,732.09
BREAKING NEWS: Is this a SCAM? You WON'T believe what we found!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4cae6d9f1b548173e8dst05vuc




------------------------------------

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: E-Pad

Bruce Crain
 

Great news Darrell! Maybe the Quickies are coming back! Several of our guys are getting close to completion! It's been kind of lonely. "The more the merrier"! And it is a great efficient airframe. Hopefully the Johnson brothers will join us this next year also!
I am jumping up and down inside!
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Darrell Daniels" <log@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: [Q-LIST] E-Pad
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 17:51:55 -0500

Can any of you tell me if the E-Pad with the 7 inch screen is something you
can use to run gps and Terrain on. I know some of you use small computers
but I am not quite up on it. Thanks Darrell. Oh By the way I made a big
move , My airplane is at the airport in a hanger . Not flying yet but it
will be. Thanks Darrell



____________________________________________________________
SHOCKING: 2010 Honda Civic for $1,732.09
BREAKING NEWS: Is this a SCAM? You WON'T believe what we found!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4cae6d9f1b548173e8dst05vuc


Re: Battery power to weight ratio.

Isaksson Roger <scratchdeeper@...>
 

Yes the batteries in them selves, are a different topic, yes, but batteries as 
a possible substitute as a weight saving factor in an airplane, I would say,  is
spot on, as , in this case, the possible weight saving is substantial.

From that perspective, you might have something to ad, like , if there are any
possible differences in how  Lead Batteries compared with Lithium Ion batteries
are acting and behaving with an alternator as a charger, , as most have
experience of Litium Ion batteries from very small electronic appliance
batteries, that require only a very small plug in type charging device, that
gives a very steady current.

The power to weight ratio is the appealing issue here, and with a man with your
experience in batteries, if you could please tell, a couple of pro's and con's
for people considering a straight substitute from a Lead Acid battery to a
Litium Ion battery.

I am sorry that a few bloggers started to go off topic on this subject like
......-"Don't wear clownshoes in a minefield"....and ...."Don't pet a burning
dog"....."it's dangerous".......and then added links to clownshoes, minefields
and burning dogs.

Roger





________________________________
From: John Loram <johnl@...>
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Thu, October 7, 2010 11:34:38 AM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio.

 
As a EE that has been designing battery operated electronic instrumentation
for forty years, I find battery technology endlessly fascinating, but it's
wildly off topic on this forum. May I suggest that the conversation be moved
to some other forum, such as ThunderSky, the group "for exchanging
information and experience on large lithium-ion batteries. (there are
several other battery groups)"

thanks, -john-
www.loram.org

_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Isaksson Roger
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 11:01 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio.

If an issue was worth posting it must be worth researching, instead we got a
one
liner posing the hazards, but no research to back it up. On top of it all,
someone else is suppose to do the research job.

Let me pose a few others, on the same theme, that follows the same line of
logic.

Epoxy will eventually deteriorate, it will make a hell of a hillarious
flight
when the wings comes off....but I let you do the research.

All wood props will eventually disintegrate in a poff, you better have a
freeway
clear of cars when that happens,....if your engine still is there,.....but I
let
you do the research.

So here we have knowledge based only on 5 seconds snippets from newsmedia
regarding batteries, as the basis for an opinion about a possible in flight

disaster, ande posed as a fact.

Not to mention that this was an issue with the first generation LitIon
batteries, not to mention that this was another set of batteries for small
electronic appliances, not to mention that the supplier and the
manufacturing
technique was looked over and corrected, not to mention that bigger units
are in
use daily, with no ill effects, and so on.

The only result such an approach will do is......just by the fact that it is

posed as a danger, and then leave the board with a one liner, may very well
inprint on the general flight community the idea that Lithium Ion batteries
WILL
mean an inflight fire, and some may based on that statement, very well not
approach the subject, and Lithium Ion batteries will not be pursued.

Let me turn this around and ask you a question.

Do you still beat your wife?

You see, it doesnt matter what you answer now, you will be wrong either
way, because the idea that you are, or have been beating your wife, is
assumed.

I just posed the idea that you are beating your wife, and ran out on it, but

leaving the idea behind.

....just as you left, with posing the idea that in flight fires are coming
your
way, if you are using Litium Ion Batteries.

Extraordinatry claims demands extraordianry proof, so, while you are not
expected to be an expert on the subject, at least do some basic research on
it
first before you toss out statements of that nature.

If we find that Hydrogen would be a feasible way to power our aircrafts,
....please don't come back with a one liner like......-"Be
careful....remember
Hindenburg"

Roger

________________________________
From: Rick Hole <r.hole@... <mailto:r.hole%40ieee.org> >
To: Q-LIST@... <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, October 6, 2010 7:04:34 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio.

I am wondering about the talk of banning lithium batteries from air shipment
due to fire hazard. But I haven't researched the issue, just bringing it up
to encourage someone else to do it for me :-) Having a battery go up in
flames could make for an exciting flight.

Rick

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


E-Pad

Darrell Daniels <log@...>
 

Can any of you tell me if the E-Pad with the 7 inch screen is something you can use to run gps and Terrain on. I know some of you use small computers but I am not quite up on it. Thanks Darrell. Oh By the way I made a big move , My airplane is at the airport in a hanger . Not flying yet but it will be. Thanks Darrell


Re: Battery power to weight ratio.

John Loram <johnl@...>
 

As a EE that has been designing battery operated electronic instrumentation
for forty years, I find battery technology endlessly fascinating, but it's
wildly off topic on this forum. May I suggest that the conversation be moved
to some other forum, such as ThunderSky, the group "for exchanging
information and experience on large lithium-ion batteries. (there are
several other battery groups)"

thanks, -john-
www.loram.org



_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Isaksson Roger
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 11:01 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio.




If an issue was worth posting it must be worth researching, instead we got a
one
liner posing the hazards, but no research to back it up. On top of it all,
someone else is suppose to do the research job.

Let me pose a few others, on the same theme, that follows the same line of
logic.

Epoxy will eventually deteriorate, it will make a hell of a hillarious
flight
when the wings comes off....but I let you do the research.

All wood props will eventually disintegrate in a poff, you better have a
freeway
clear of cars when that happens,....if your engine still is there,.....but I
let
you do the research.

So here we have knowledge based only on 5 seconds snippets from newsmedia
regarding batteries, as the basis for an opinion about a possible in flight

disaster, ande posed as a fact.

Not to mention that this was an issue with the first generation LitIon
batteries, not to mention that this was another set of batteries for small
electronic appliances, not to mention that the supplier and the
manufacturing
technique was looked over and corrected, not to mention that bigger units
are in
use daily, with no ill effects, and so on.

The only result such an approach will do is......just by the fact that it is

posed as a danger, and then leave the board with a one liner, may very well
inprint on the general flight community the idea that Lithium Ion batteries
WILL
mean an inflight fire, and some may based on that statement, very well not
approach the subject, and Lithium Ion batteries will not be pursued.

Let me turn this around and ask you a question.

Do you still beat your wife?

You see, it doesnt matter what you answer now, you will be wrong either
way, because the idea that you are, or have been beating your wife, is
assumed.

I just posed the idea that you are beating your wife, and ran out on it, but

leaving the idea behind.

....just as you left, with posing the idea that in flight fires are coming
your
way, if you are using Litium Ion Batteries.

Extraordinatry claims demands extraordianry proof, so, while you are not
expected to be an expert on the subject, at least do some basic research on
it
first before you toss out statements of that nature.

If we find that Hydrogen would be a feasible way to power our aircrafts,
....please don't come back with a one liner like......-"Be
careful....remember
Hindenburg"

Roger

________________________________
From: Rick Hole <r.hole@... <mailto:r.hole%40ieee.org> >
To: Q-LIST@... <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, October 6, 2010 7:04:34 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio.



I am wondering about the talk of banning lithium batteries from air shipment
due to fire hazard. But I haven't researched the issue, just bringing it up
to encourage someone else to do it for me :-) Having a battery go up in
flames could make for an exciting flight.

Rick


Re: Battery power to weight ratio.

One Sky Dog
 

I believe that is related to pallets of batteries in the cargo hold, not
your spare laptop battery.

Charlie

In a message dated 10/6/2010 8:04:45 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
r.hole@... writes:

I am wondering about the talk of banning lithium batteries from air
shipment
due to fire hazard. But I haven't researched the issue, just bringing it
up
to encourage someone else to do it for me :-) Having a battery go up in
flames could make for an exciting flight.

Rick


Re: Battery Fire Information/Video

captainboyd@...
 

Folks,

I'm new to the forum (Q2 Wannabe), but very familiar with recent info on Lithium Battery fires (most commonly found in laptops).

In my day job (corporate pilot) my department has discussed this and feel better prepared to manage an on-board lithium battery fire (scenario: a passenger is charging a laptop) thanks to the FAA's recent instructional video.

The 1st link is a youtube video of a LAX laptop fire for emphasis. The 2nd link is the FAA video:

LAX laptop fire:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmlZggVrF9VI&v=mlZggVrF9VI&gl=US

FAA video:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dgcd34tt8YPU&v=gcd34tt8YPU&gl=US

In short, it's the temperature of the burning lithium battery that is most problematic.

These batteries would be a huge weight saver in an experimental airplane, but the packaging has to improve in my opinion.

Beans
Wilmington, DE



Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...>
Sender: Q-LIST@...
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 22:04:34
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Reply-To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio.



I am wondering about the talk of banning lithium batteries from air shipment
due to fire hazard. But I haven't researched the issue, just bringing it up
to encourage someone else to do it for me :-) Having a battery go up in
flames could make for an exciting flight.

Rick


Re: Battery power to weight ratio.

Isaksson Roger <scratchdeeper@...>
 

If an issue was worth posting it must be worth researching, instead we got a one
liner posing the hazards, but no research to back it up. On top of it all,
someone else is suppose to do the research job.

Let me pose a few others, on the same theme, that follows the same line of
logic.

Epoxy will eventually deteriorate, it will make a hell of a hillarious flight
when the wings comes off....but I let you do the research.

All wood props will eventually disintegrate in a poff, you better have a freeway
clear of cars when that happens,....if your engine still is there,.....but I let
you do the research.

So here we have knowledge based only on 5 seconds snippets from newsmedia
regarding batteries, as the basis for an opinion about a possible  in flight
disaster, ande posed as a fact.

Not to mention that this was an issue with the first generation LitIon
batteries, not to mention that this was another set of batteries for small
electronic appliances, not to mention that the supplier and the manufacturing
technique was looked over and corrected, not to mention that bigger units are in
use daily, with no ill effects, and so on.

The only result such an approach will do is......just by the fact that it is
posed as a danger, and then leave the board with a one liner, may very well
inprint on the general flight community the idea that Lithium Ion batteries WILL
mean an inflight fire, and some may based on that statement, very well not
approach the subject,  and Lithium Ion batteries will not be pursued.

Let me turn this around and ask you a question.

Do you still beat your wife?

You see, it doesnt matter what you answer now, you will be wrong either
way, because the idea that you are, or have been beating your wife, is assumed.

I just posed the idea that you are beating your wife, and ran out on it, but
leaving the idea behind.

....just as you left, with posing the idea that in flight fires are coming your
way, if you are using Litium Ion Batteries.

Extraordinatry claims  demands extraordianry proof, so,  while you are not
expected to be an expert on the subject, at least do some basic research  on it
first before you toss out statements of that nature.

If we find that Hydrogen would be a feasible way to power our aircrafts,
....please don't come back with a one liner like......-"Be careful....remember
Hindenburg"

Roger







________________________________
From: Rick Hole <r.hole@...>
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Wed, October 6, 2010 7:04:34 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio.

 


I am wondering about the talk of banning lithium batteries from air shipment
due to fire hazard. But I haven't researched the issue, just bringing it up
to encourage someone else to do it for me :-) Having a battery go up in
flames could make for an exciting flight.

Rick


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Battery power to weight ratio.

Rick Hole
 

I am wondering about the talk of banning lithium batteries from air shipment
due to fire hazard. But I haven't researched the issue, just bringing it up
to encourage someone else to do it for me :-) Having a battery go up in
flames could make for an exciting flight.

Rick


Re: Baggage pods

hargin
 

Didn't notice any difference.  Thanks for asking.

--- On Wed, 10/6/10, Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:

From: Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...>
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Baggage pods
To: "Q-LIST" <Q-LIST@...>
Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 6:52 PM

You go first.

How was the ride home without the spinner?

Sam

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:42 PM, mitch hargin <hargin@...> wrote:



I saw lots of baggage pods on LongEZ, and VariEZ at Rough River.  Has
anyone ever tried it on a Q or Dragonfly?

Mitch Hargin
Tri Q2
Dragonfly MKII

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Battery power to weight ratio.

Isaksson Roger <scratchdeeper@...>
 

About memory effect.....you are right, and I will immediately execute the slave
that wrote that for me.

Again, I am far from an expert in this field, but are intrigued by the big
difference in weight.

Also, yes they have ways to go, but the point where they are now, is pretty
amazing.

As to high Amp, and an ability to discharge like, to a starter motor...well
electric airplanes, electric cars and as one pointed out here, an electric drag
bike, ..that takes a lot of Amps , theyre running in the 7 second bracket, and
it's not excactly a trickle charger needed for that. It need wide open discharge
to accomplish that.

Agree.... the lead Acid battery is doing good, in that respect as well, but
all I wanted to point out is a tremendeous weight saving , with more modern
developed batteries.

Our use of exotic batteries in cellphones and laptops is a constant use, and I
don't think that it is too fair of a comparison , when translating it to a car
or an airplane use.

Fact remain, Lithium Ion batteries have many times more recharge ability over a
lead acid battery,  fact remain,  Lithium Ion batteries have more than ten times
storing capacity per weight over lead acid batteries...... those facts can't be
undone.

A cellphone, or laptop used every day, and put on a charger everyday goes
through the battery life cycle pretty quick.

For an airplane, in normal use, it would take forever to go through the cycles.

I am not selling anything, also I don't represent a battery company, basically I
dont care if anyone wants to stay with lead acid batteries, and more developed
batteries might not be for everybody, conservatism has it's virtues.

It's up to each and everybody, of course, to weigh back and forth between cost,
and weight savings.

If something that is ten times lighter, doing the same thing as their lead acid
battery, ....at least from that stand point I would not hesitate, it's more a
cost issue than anything else.

They are expensive yes, but I have seen people pay huge sums for efficiency
improvements, aerodynamic and engine wise, so I bet it is not long before these
batteries are making serious inways in the flying community.

I am sure there will be some discussions about the pro's and cons about them,
there is probably a whole science about them, but all in all, theyre coming.

Roger


 



________________________________
From: Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Wed, October 6, 2010 2:41:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Battery power to weight ratio.

 
Good email but one error and one detail...

NiCd batterys have the memory effect, NiMh don't.
All the watt/KG numbers are good for storage batteries and could be used
in say an all electric plane, but our piston engines need a starting
battery that can deliver hundreds of amps for seconds and I think lead
acid still fills that need the best, also they are way cheap compared to
the others.

I find the NiMh cells for cameras, ect tend to die in 2 years no mater
what you do to them.
I find the Lithium used in my tablet PC seem to make about 4 years
before not holding much charge.

They got a long way to go on battery's,
Mike Q200

Isaksson Roger wrote:
There was a jet driven ultralight at Oshkosh , some time ago, also not too
practical, guess it was most for fun, and just to have it done.

On batteries and weight.

We might get into an era now, where battteries are not boat anchors no more.

The development have been pushed , especially because of the "green planet"
ideal we are currently into, and with that a push for hybrids, and electric
cars.

Most of us are still using the standard lead acid battery as we have used for
almost a hundred years now, but I must say that there has been some pretty big
improvements in battery technology lately.

We have seen flashlight batteries , "button" batteries in hearing aids, and
smaller electronic gizmos, plus Acid lead batteries for quite some time, and
while they might have improved slightly, they have not made any bigger
revolutionary breakthroughs.

Perhaps, the step from ordianry dry cells, to alkaline batteries was a farily
decent step, but all in all they have pretty much been a heavy way to store
energy.

Nickel Metal Hydride batteries was the first sign of good things to come, and
they have been around for a while, the downside with them, is that they tend to

get a "memory" and need a complete discharge before being charged again,
otherwise they will only charge up to the last peak.

From that, Litium Ion batteries was probably the biggest step in compact
storage

of electric energy. the first generation had some problem with thermal runaway,

( exploding batteries) , but that is addressed now, plus the newer generation
Lithium Ion batteries took another big step up in ability to store electric
energy in small and compact packages.

Litium Ion batteries don't have memory, and can be charged at any time , like a

lead acid battery, and can be charged an enormously amount of times, compared
with a lead acid battery. So even if this might not be a lifetime battery, at
least where battery technology stands right now, it is as close as it has got.

They are counted in cycles of charge, from new, to an ability to recharge up to

80% of the original ability to take on charge. Lithium Ion batteries counts
around 1800- 2200 times, ( there are always brands that claim to be better than

the rival brand, but either way, it is way way more than a lead acid battery)


Today Lithium Ion batteries are found in laptops, cellphones, Hybrid cars etc.

I took the liberty to look up different batteries , and their power to weight
ratio and came up with some really interesting numbers.

This especially as in our case as aviators , we want everything to do what it
is

suppose to do, as lightweight as possible.

The measurement is in Watt, per Kilo of battery. (1 Kilo =2.2 Pounds)

Nickel Hydrogen
batteries.....................................................................................................................75W/Kg
g


Nickel
Cadmium.................................................................................................................................150
0
W/Kg

Lead Acid, (this is the most common stuff we're hauling around, mostly sealed
lead acid batteries) ........180W/Kg

Nickel Metal
Hydride..........................................................................................................................980W/Kg
g


Lithium Ion
.......................................................................................................................................1700W/Kg
g


I am far from being an expert on batteries, and there might be other issues to
look into that I am unaware of, if a direct replacement from a lead acid unit
to

a Lithium Ion battery pack is considered, but as a battery is a storage place
for electric energy, no matter what type of battery it is, so I don't think
that there will be unsolvable issues.

The Lithium Ion batteries are however much more expensive, but as they lasts so

much longer than a Lead Acid, I wonder if this will be much of an issue in the
long run.

While it might not be feasible, or make much of a difference in a car....at
least right for now anyway, but because of the dramatic weight difference they
give, it is definitely a consideration for aircrafts.

The developments are gaining momentum , and the Lithium Ion batteries, are here

on the market already.

As it stands now, the need for Lithium is enormous in the electronic industry,
and there might be a couple of weeks delivery from suppliers, and some are
special orders, but this will hopefully ease up as time goes.

Perhaps it is time to drop all the lead we are hauling aloft.

Se it this way....from the battery weight you save.....it will allow us to get
fatter, and still fly.

Roger










________________________________
From: Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 4:49:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Light Weight: 1.7lbs BATTERY QUESTION


That guy is crazy, but it would be way cool to see an ultralight go by
making a turbine sound. There was a Stearman at Sun N Fun with a
turbine. Totally impractical but what a hoot!

Now to your question. That little battery may start a small turbine but
the big compression spikes of a piston engine might be more of a
challenge. I did start my 0-200A with a PC680 12AH, 680CCA battery (6x
the rating, 15lbs) but if it didn't start on the first few blades then
you had to wait a bit and crank a few more. Kind of not so good.
Cessna starter. My battery is now a PC925 at 23 lbs and that works
fine. All these AGM type battery's are real sensitive to overcharging.
Once they bulge out they are dead, I killed my PC680, may it rest in peace.

Fly Safe,
Mike Q200

Armilite@... wrote:

Info you all may be interested in below.


Hello:

I was watching a video on Youtube where a guy was using a turbine engine on
his ultralight airplane and was using a lightweight battery to start it.
It looked like it said:

EV025 Flight Power
Lithium Polymer 3.7amp
1.7lbs
25C=185AMPS

Video I'm talking about _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_5lnbZeN_M_
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_5lnbZeN_M)

Most ultralight/kit airplanes have Rotax engines and use garden tractor
batterys which are heavy. Is this EV025 a good choice? Do you have a web link
to it? How much does it cost.

Any time you can save 15-30lbs in and ultralight is nice.

Rich Gillen
Ames, IA

Rotax engine spec's.
_http://www.theultralightplace.com/specifications.htm_
(http://www.theultralightplace.com/specifications.htm)

Here is a link to a rotax starter on ebay for spec's.
_http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-ROTAX-BRP-ROTAX-587-580-581CC-STARTER-19
89-94-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53e3ebb810QQitemZ360306161680QQptZPersonal
Q5fWatercraftQ5fParts_
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-ROTAX-BRP-ROTAX-587-580-581CC-STARTER-1989-94-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53e3ebb810QQitemZ36
6
6
0306161680QQptZPersonalQ5fWatercraftQ5fParts)

============================================================================


Thank you for your recent email.

The battery shown in the video is an older pack. However, any of the packs
listed below should work for a similar set up. A link to our website is
shown below. You can use the "Find a Dealer" link on our website to find your
nearest dealer.

Item # Description
FPWP6443 LIPO EONX30 3800 8S LONG 29.6V
FPWP6444 LIPO EONX30 3800 8S 29.6V
FPWP6570 H LIPO EON28 4400 8S LONG 29.6V
FPWP6580 LIPO EONX30 4350 8S LONG 29.6V
FPWP6703 LIPO EONX30 5000 8S LONG 29.6V
FPWP6704 LIPO EONX30 5000 8S 29.6V




FlightPower website:
_http://www.flightpowerusa.com/index.html_
(http://www.flightpowerusa.com/index.html)

I hope you find this information helpful. Should you have any further
questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us at this email
address. (Please be sure to copy all previous emails into any future
questions.) You can also reach our product support technical team at
217-398-8970,

or via fax at 217-398-7721.

DID YOU KNOW that our web pages now all contain FAQs? (Frequently asked
questions) Please drop by and take a look! We hope you'll find the
information helpful and valuable to you.

Sincerely,

Adam W.
Product Support
PS9023
NO AUTORESPONDER





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Light Weight: 1.7lbs BATTERY QUESTION

Rich Gillen
 

Hello Mike:


Check out this guy on YouTube. I just wish they could put some spec's with
it. Engine, fuel use, thrust, etc.

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XbTzfAFNgE_
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XbTzfAFNgE)


I probably should have said for Rotax 2 cycle engines, which a 618UL is
like less than 48 cubic inches, a 914 is only 56 cubic inches, even though I'm
sure you could find a lighter Lithium battery that would meet your 0-200's
starter requirements to save some weight than what your using now. Most
kit planes are in the new LSA or expermental class where weight isn't as big
an issue as ultralights. Most, so called ultralights aren't really true
ultralights either. They don't meet all the rules.

Example: A T-Bird I tail dragger with a 447, 5 gal of fuel and basic
intruments just makes ultralight weight. By using one of these new light weight
batties, he may have an option to upgrade to a 503 or even a 582.

I don't know of any ultralights using an 0-200. Even most kit planes I have
seen don't use the 0-200. They are a great engine, but cost way to much. A
New, O-200 cost $22,000-$24,000+ for 100HP, Rotax 914 $22,000-$25,000 for
100-120HP. Yes, there are Pro's and Con's of both 2 cycle and 4 cycle
engines. Most engine failures, whether 2 cycle or 4 cycle, almost all are human
related.

Not saying you can't find a once in a life time good deal on a used runout
O-200, but most seem to average about $4000. But most rebuilds even cost
$8000-$9000+.

I'm in the process of building a stock Rotax 670, _97HP@6800RPM_
(mailto:97HP@6800RPM) per the dyno sheet. If I have it ported, mill the head, open
up the carbs, dual pipes, etc, I can make even more HP or lower the RPM's
and still stay in my target range of 90-100HP. It only weighs 2lbs more than
a 582. That 2lb difference could be remedied by using grade 5 Titanium
bolts in the engine versus steel, Carbon fiber brackets, light weight battery.

A New 670 from the SkiDoo dealer was $1500 less carbs.
or
A Good complete used 670 $250
Rebuild kit $285
Labor to machine block for gear drive $150
E Gear drive New $1500
582/618 dual plug Head $600, I'm talking to some guys who make Billet dual
plug heads $289-$399.
Dual ignition $???----Still researching options.
Yes, they have a lower TBO than the O-200, but a rebuild is only around
$350 if you can do it yourself.

They do make a Big Bore kit for the 670 to make it a 740. Does take some
major machine work to the block and cylinders to do it. I have a 582/583
block and a spare set of std 670 cylinders that will fit, with minor grinding
to make a Big Bore 582/583. Throw in a 617/618 crank. Hmmmm, still
researching that. The 618UL made _74.6HP@6800rpm_ (mailto:74.6HP@6800rpm) . So a
582/583 big bore making _80-90HP@6800rpm_ (mailto:80-90HP@6800rpm) maybe
possible.

I find it odd that Terry didn't have any trouble and you did with the
PC680. What starter do you use? How long and what size battery cables do you
use? O-200 versus IO-320-E2D.

Rich Gillen
Ames, IA

2b. Re: Light Weight: 1.7lbs BATTERY QUESTION
Posted by: "Terry Adams" terrywadams@... tony54298
Date: Tue Oct 5, 2010 9:43 pm ((PDT))
Really? My PC680 has been starting my IO-320-E2D (not in a Q) for three
years now. This is with an nine foot battery cable from behind the baggage
compartment.to the starter.
Terry<

2a. Re: Light Weight: 1.7lbs BATTERY QUESTION
Posted by: "Mike Dwyer" mdwyer@... planedude_99
Date: Tue Oct 5, 2010 4:50 pm ((PDT))

That guy is crazy, but it would be way cool to see an ultralight go by
making a turbine sound. There was a Stearman at Sun N Fun with a
turbine. Totally impractical but what a hoot!

Now to your question. That little battery may start a small turbine but
the big compression spikes of a piston engine might be more of a
challenge. I did start my 0-200A with a PC680 12AH, 680CCA battery (6x
the rating, 15lbs) but if it didn't start on the first few blades then
you had to wait a bit and crank a few more. Kind of not so good.
Cessna starter. My battery is now a PC925 at 23 lbs and that works
fine. All these AGM type battery's are real sensitive to overcharging.
Once they bulge out they are dead, I killed my PC680, may it rest in peace.

Fly Safe,
Mike Q200


Re: Baggage pods

Sam Hoskins
 

You go first.

How was the ride home without the spinner?

Sam

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:42 PM, mitch hargin <hargin@...> wrote:



I saw lots of baggage pods on LongEZ, and VariEZ at Rough River. Has
anyone ever tried it on a Q or Dragonfly?

Mitch Hargin
Tri Q2
Dragonfly MKII





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Baggage pods

hargin
 

I saw lots of baggage pods on LongEZ, and VariEZ at Rough River.  Has anyone ever tried it on a Q or Dragonfly?

Mitch Hargin
Tri Q2
Dragonfly MKII


Re: Battery power to weight ratio.

Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
 

Good email but one error and one detail...

NiCd batterys have the memory effect, NiMh don't.
All the watt/KG numbers are good for storage batteries and could be used in say an all electric plane, but our piston engines need a starting battery that can deliver hundreds of amps for seconds and I think lead acid still fills that need the best, also they are way cheap compared to the others.

I find the NiMh cells for cameras, ect tend to die in 2 years no mater what you do to them.
I find the Lithium used in my tablet PC seem to make about 4 years before not holding much charge.

They got a long way to go on battery's,
Mike Q200



Isaksson Roger wrote:

There was a jet driven ultralight at Oshkosh , some time ago, also not too practical, guess it was most for fun, and just to have it done.

On batteries and weight.

We might get into an era now, where battteries are not boat anchors no more.

The development have been pushed , especially because of the "green planet" ideal we are currently into, and with that a push for hybrids, and electric cars.

Most of us are still using the standard lead acid battery as we have used for almost a hundred years now, but I must say that there has been some pretty big improvements in battery technology lately.

We have seen flashlight batteries , "button" batteries in hearing aids, and smaller electronic gizmos, plus Acid lead batteries for quite some time, and while they might have improved slightly, they have not made any bigger revolutionary breakthroughs.

Perhaps, the step from ordianry dry cells, to alkaline batteries was a farily decent step, but all in all they have pretty much been a heavy way to store energy.

Nickel Metal Hydride batteries was the first sign of good things to come, and they have been around for a while, the downside with them, is that they tend to get a "memory" and need a complete discharge before being charged again, otherwise they will only charge up to the last peak.

From that, Litium Ion batteries was probably the biggest step in compact storage
of electric energy. the first generation had some problem with thermal runaway, ( exploding batteries) , but that is addressed now, plus the newer generation Lithium Ion batteries took another big step up in ability to store electric energy in small and compact packages.

Litium Ion batteries don't have memory, and can be charged at any time , like a lead acid battery, and can be charged an enormously amount of times, compared with a lead acid battery. So even if this might not be a lifetime battery, at least where battery technology stands right now, it is as close as it has got.

They are counted in cycles of charge, from new, to an ability to recharge up to 80% of the original ability to take on charge. Lithium Ion batteries counts around 1800- 2200 times, ( there are always brands that claim to be better than the rival brand, but either way, it is way way more than a lead acid battery)

Today Lithium Ion batteries are found in laptops, cellphones, Hybrid cars etc.

I took the liberty to look up different batteries , and their power to weight ratio and came up with some really interesting numbers.

This especially as in our case as aviators , we want everything to do what it is suppose to do, as lightweight as possible.

The measurement is in Watt, per Kilo of battery. (1 Kilo =2.2 Pounds)
Nickel Hydrogen batteries.....................................................................................................................75W/Kg


Nickel Cadmium.................................................................................................................................150
W/Kg

Lead Acid, (this is the most common stuff we're hauling around, mostly sealed lead acid batteries) ........180W/Kg

Nickel Metal Hydride..........................................................................................................................980W/Kg


Lithium Ion .......................................................................................................................................1700W/Kg


I am far from being an expert on batteries, and there might be other issues to look into that I am unaware of, if a direct replacement from a lead acid unit to a Lithium Ion battery pack is considered, but as a battery is a storage place for electric energy, no matter what type of battery it is, so I don't think that there will be unsolvable issues.

The Lithium Ion batteries are however much more expensive, but as they lasts so much longer than a Lead Acid, I wonder if this will be much of an issue in the long run.

While it might not be feasible, or make much of a difference in a car....at least right for now anyway, but because of the dramatic weight difference they give, it is definitely a consideration for aircrafts.

The developments are gaining momentum , and the Lithium Ion batteries, are here on the market already.

As it stands now, the need for Lithium is enormous in the electronic industry, and there might be a couple of weeks delivery from suppliers, and some are special orders, but this will hopefully ease up as time goes.

Perhaps it is time to drop all the lead we are hauling aloft.

Se it this way....from the battery weight you save.....it will allow us to get fatter, and still fly.

Roger









________________________________
From: Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 4:49:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Light Weight: 1.7lbs BATTERY QUESTION

That guy is crazy, but it would be way cool to see an ultralight go by making a turbine sound. There was a Stearman at Sun N Fun with a turbine. Totally impractical but what a hoot!

Now to your question. That little battery may start a small turbine but the big compression spikes of a piston engine might be more of a challenge. I did start my 0-200A with a PC680 12AH, 680CCA battery (6x the rating, 15lbs) but if it didn't start on the first few blades then you had to wait a bit and crank a few more. Kind of not so good. Cessna starter. My battery is now a PC925 at 23 lbs and that works fine. All these AGM type battery's are real sensitive to overcharging. Once they bulge out they are dead, I killed my PC680, may it rest in peace.

Fly Safe,
Mike Q200

Armilite@... wrote:

Info you all may be interested in below.


Hello:

I was watching a video on Youtube where a guy was using a turbine engine on his ultralight airplane and was using a lightweight battery to start it. It looked like it said:
EV025 Flight Power
Lithium Polymer 3.7amp
1.7lbs
25C=185AMPS

Video I'm talking about _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_5lnbZeN_M_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_5lnbZeN_M)
Most ultralight/kit airplanes have Rotax engines and use garden tractor batterys which are heavy. Is this EV025 a good choice? Do you have a web link to it? How much does it cost.

Any time you can save 15-30lbs in and ultralight is nice.

Rich Gillen
Ames, IA

Rotax engine spec's.
_http://www.theultralightplace.com/specifications.htm_ (http://www.theultralightplace.com/specifications.htm)
Here is a link to a rotax starter on ebay for spec's.
_http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-ROTAX-BRP-ROTAX-587-580-581CC-STARTER-19
89-94-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53e3ebb810QQitemZ360306161680QQptZPersonal
Q5fWatercraftQ5fParts_ (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-ROTAX-BRP-ROTAX-587-580-581CC-STARTER-1989-94-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53e3ebb810QQitemZ36
6
0306161680QQptZPersonalQ5fWatercraftQ5fParts)
============================================================================


Thank you for your recent email.

The battery shown in the video is an older pack. However, any of the packs listed below should work for a similar set up. A link to our website is shown below. You can use the "Find a Dealer" link on our website to find your nearest dealer.
Item # Description
FPWP6443 LIPO EONX30 3800 8S LONG 29.6V FPWP6444 LIPO EONX30 3800 8S 29.6V FPWP6570 H LIPO EON28 4400 8S LONG 29.6V FPWP6580 LIPO EONX30 4350 8S LONG 29.6V FPWP6703 LIPO EONX30 5000 8S LONG 29.6V FPWP6704 LIPO EONX30 5000 8S 29.6V




FlightPower website:
_http://www.flightpowerusa.com/index.html_ (http://www.flightpowerusa.com/index.html)
I hope you find this information helpful. Should you have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us at this email address. (Please be sure to copy all previous emails into any future questions.) You can also reach our product support technical team at 217-398-8970,
or via fax at 217-398-7721.
DID YOU KNOW that our web pages now all contain FAQs? (Frequently asked questions) Please drop by and take a look! We hope you'll find the information helpful and valuable to you.

Sincerely,

Adam W.
Product Support PS9023
NO AUTORESPONDER








------------------------------------

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links












------------------------------------

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links





Re: Battery power to weight ratio.

One Sky Dog
 

In a message dated 10/6/2010 3:44:54 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
mdwyer@... writes:

Good email but one error and one detail...

NiCd batterys have the memory effect, NiMh don't.
All the watt/KG numbers are good for storage batteries and could be used
in say an all electric plane, but our piston engines need a starting
battery that can deliver hundreds of amps for seconds and I think lead
acid still fills that need the best, also they are way cheap compared to
the others.

I find the NiMh cells for cameras, ect tend to die in 2 years no mater
what you do to them.
I find the Lithium used in my tablet PC seem to make about 4 years
before not holding much charge.

They got a long way to go on battery's,
Mike Q200



Isaksson Roger wrote:
There was a jet driven ultralight at Oshkosh , some time ago, also not
too
practical, guess it was most for fun, and just to have it done.

On batteries and weight.

We might get into an era now, where battteries are not boat anchors no
more.

The development have been pushed , especially because of the "green
planet"
ideal we are currently into, and with that a push for hybrids, and
electric
cars.

Most of us are still using the standard lead acid battery as we have
used for
almost a hundred years now, but I must say that there has been some
pretty big
improvements in battery technology lately.

We have seen flashlight batteries , "button" batteries in hearing aids,
and
smaller electronic gizmos, plus Acid lead batteries for quite some time,
and
while they might have improved slightly, they have not made any bigger
revolutionary breakthroughs.

Perhaps, the step from ordianry dry cells, to alkaline batteries was a
farily
decent step, but all in all they have pretty much been a heavy way to
store
energy.

Nickel Metal Hydride batteries was the first sign of good things to
come, and
they have been around for a while, the downside with them, is that they
tend to
get a "memory" and need a complete discharge before being charged again,
otherwise they will only charge up to the last peak.

From that, Litium Ion batteries was probably the biggest step in
compact storage
of electric energy. the first generation had some problem with thermal
runaway,
( exploding batteries) , but that is addressed now, plus the newer
generation
Lithium Ion batteries took another big step up in ability to store
electric
energy in small and compact packages.

Litium Ion batteries don't have memory, and can be charged at any time ,
like a
lead acid battery, and can be charged an enormously amount of times,
compared
with a lead acid battery. So even if this might not be a lifetime
battery, at
least where battery technology stands right now, it is as close as it
has got.

They are counted in cycles of charge, from new, to an ability to
recharge up to
80% of the original ability to take on charge. Lithium Ion batteries
counts
around 1800- 2200 times, ( there are always brands that claim to be
better than
the rival brand, but either way, it is way way more than a lead acid
battery)


Today Lithium Ion batteries are found in laptops, cellphones, Hybrid
cars etc.

I took the liberty to look up different batteries , and their power to
weight
ratio and came up with some really interesting numbers.

This especially as in our case as aviators , we want everything to do
what it is
suppose to do, as lightweight as possible.

The measurement is in Watt, per Kilo of battery. (1 Kilo =2.2 Pounds)

Nickel Hydrogen
batteries.....................................................................................................................75W/Kg


Nickel
Cadmium.................................................................................................................................150
W/Kg

Lead Acid, (this is the most common stuff we're hauling around, mostly
sealed
lead acid batteries) ........180W/Kg

Nickel Metal
Hydride..........................................................................................................................980W/Kg


Lithium Ion
.......................................................................................................................................1700W/Kg


I am far from being an expert on batteries, and there might be other
issues to
look into that I am unaware of, if a direct replacement from a lead acid
unit to
a Lithium Ion battery pack is considered, but as a battery is a storage
place
for electric energy, no matter what type of battery it is, so I don't
think
that there will be unsolvable issues.

The Lithium Ion batteries are however much more expensive, but as they
lasts so
much longer than a Lead Acid, I wonder if this will be much of an issue
in the
long run.

While it might not be feasible, or make much of a difference in a
car....at
least right for now anyway, but because of the dramatic weight
difference they
give, it is definitely a consideration for aircrafts.

The developments are gaining momentum , and the Lithium Ion batteries,
are here
on the market already.

As it stands now, the need for Lithium is enormous in the electronic
industry,
and there might be a couple of weeks delivery from suppliers, and some
are
special orders, but this will hopefully ease up as time goes.

Perhaps it is time to drop all the lead we are hauling aloft.

Se it this way....from the battery weight you save.....it will allow us
to get
fatter, and still fly.

Roger










________________________________
From: Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 4:49:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Light Weight: 1.7lbs BATTERY QUESTION


That guy is crazy, but it would be way cool to see an ultralight go by
making a turbine sound. There was a Stearman at Sun N Fun with a
turbine. Totally impractical but what a hoot!

Now to your question. That little battery may start a small turbine but
the big compression spikes of a piston engine might be more of a
challenge. I did start my 0-200A with a PC680 12AH, 680CCA battery (6x
the rating, 15lbs) but if it didn't start on the first few blades then
you had to wait a bit and crank a few more. Kind of not so good.
Cessna starter. My battery is now a PC925 at 23 lbs and that works
fine. All these AGM type battery's are real sensitive to overcharging.
Once they bulge out they are dead, I killed my PC680, may it rest in
peace.

Fly Safe,
Mike Q200

Armilite@... wrote:

Info you all may be interested in below.


Hello:

I was watching a video on Youtube where a guy was using a turbine
engine on
his ultralight airplane and was using a lightweight battery to start
it.
It looked like it said:

EV025 Flight Power
Lithium Polymer 3.7amp
1.7lbs
25C=185AMPS

Video I'm talking about _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_5lnbZeN_M_
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_5lnbZeN_M)

Most ultralight/kit airplanes have Rotax engines and use garden tractor
batterys which are heavy. Is this EV025 a good choice? Do you have a
web link
to it? How much does it cost.

Any time you can save 15-30lbs in and ultralight is nice.

Rich Gillen
Ames, IA

Rotax engine spec's.
_http://www.theultralightplace.com/specifications.htm_
(http://www.theultralightplace.com/specifications.htm)

Here is a link to a rotax starter on ebay for spec's.
_http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-ROTAX-BRP-ROTAX-587-580-581CC-STARTER-19
89-94-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53e3ebb810QQitemZ360306161680QQptZPersonal
Q5fWatercraftQ5fParts_
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-ROTAX-BRP-ROTAX-587-580-581CC-STARTER-1989-94-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53e3ebb810QQitemZ36
6
0306161680QQptZPersonalQ5fWatercraftQ5fParts)

============================================================================


Thank you for your recent email.

The battery shown in the video is an older pack. However, any of the
packs
listed below should work for a similar set up. A link to our website is
shown below. You can use the "Find a Dealer" link on our website to
find your
nearest dealer.

Item # Description
FPWP6443 LIPO EONX30 3800 8S LONG 29.6V
FPWP6444 LIPO EONX30 3800 8S 29.6V
FPWP6570 H LIPO EON28 4400 8S LONG 29.6V
FPWP6580 LIPO EONX30 4350 8S LONG 29.6V
FPWP6703 LIPO EONX30 5000 8S LONG 29.6V
FPWP6704 LIPO EONX30 5000 8S 29.6V




FlightPower website:
_http://www.flightpowerusa.com/index.html_
(http://www.flightpowerusa.com/index.html)

I hope you find this information helpful. Should you have any further
questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us at this
email
address. (Please be sure to copy all previous emails into any future
questions.) You can also reach our product support technical team at
217-398-8970,

or via fax at 217-398-7721.

DID YOU KNOW that our web pages now all contain FAQs? (Frequently asked
questions) Please drop by and take a look! We hope you'll find the
information helpful and valuable to you.

Sincerely,

Adam W.
Product Support
PS9023
NO AUTORESPONDER





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Yahoo! Groups Links





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