Date   

Re: Pattern Flying and Reports

Chris Adkins
 

Jon,
That wasn't a "gripe-session", that was the entire definition of flying the
pattern boiled down into a few concise paragraphs with real world examples.
Something many CFIs don't seem to be able to convey.

I, for one, thank you.

Chris Adkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Jon Finley
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 10:45 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Pattern Flying and Reports

Hi all,



This sounds like a gripe-session but I really do not mean it that way.
Perhaps this is the CFI in me coming out - I dunno. If any of you fall into
these scenario's, I hope that you will think about it and that perhaps it
will affect your flying practices.



A nearby airport had a pancake breakfast this past Saturday. Judging from
the radio traffic, it was quite busy so I flew around for awhile just
listening and enjoying the air before approaching/landing. I very
definitely get spoiled with VERY little traffic in the pattern (at most of
the airports that I frequent) or I know the guys flying and know what they
are going to do.



Based on what I observed at this fly-in, I'd like to remind everyone of a
couple things:

1. Accurate position reports are SUPER important.

2. Ideally, you should always be within gliding distance of the runway
while in the pattern.

3. Listen.



The second one is no big deal cause I like flying, an extra 5 minutes in the
air is nothing. The trouble starts when there are several of us in the
pattern all trying to slow down and do 360's - ya got airplanes flying all
over the place. I am amazed at the patterns that some people fly (and it
seems they were taught to fly that way). I understand that lots of traffic
will mess this up and that larger, faster airplanes do require more space.
The classic here is the CT that likes to fly downwind two miles out from the
runway and three miles past the approach end out before turning base, all
while doing about 40 kts (feels like it). A week or two ago, I was calling
5 miles out (entering on the upwind) while this person was calling downwind.
Knowing what was going to happen, I slowed down but still had to fly THREE
360's on downwind for spacing. It is worth noting that there is another CT
here that does not cause any problems. There are also a number of
"ultralights" that cause nearly zero traffic disruption (they keep their
speed up and keep the pattern tight).



The first one was a bit of a surprise to me as I haven't just sat back and
listened to radio chatter for that long of a period before. This particular
airport (E80) sits on a mesa, has an escarpment to the east AND west and
also has a river to the east AND west (both running north and south for many
miles). Many people were calling "three miles out over the
river/escarpment" or some variation. Given this situation, that report is
useless. Another kewl one was "Cessna xxx, abeam the numbers starting my
descent" - what?? What is that? Finally, "Cessna xxx, downwind for 22."
Sadly, there is no 22 at this airport and everyone was using 03 (yes, his
transmission stated that he was at "this" airport). I think most everyone
flies with a GPS these days and this makes position reports so easy (5 miles
northeast, 7500').



The nervous pilot is a classic, IMO. This fellow reports three miles north.
Another pilot then reports 5 miles east. The nervous pilot immediately
responds and asks the second pilot where he is. What?? He JUST told you!
Listening is as important as talking. Yes, I understanding missing someone
else's transmission and asking for clarification. This particular fellow
was asking EVERY airplane where they were after they reported where they
were!! Talk about messing up the radio traffic - he was doing it!



Out of curiosity, I noted some visual clues upon return to my home airport
(E98) and I measured the distance to these items from the runway threshold
using Google Earth. My typical (no traffic) downwind is .25 miles from the
runway, base is .5 miles from the runway. Even that tight , depending on
where the engine failure were to occur, and wind; my Q2 may or may not glide
to the runway.



A good test (no traffic, be careful, etc.) that you can perform to get an
idea if your patterns are overly large is to pull the power to idle when
abeam the numbers and fly your normal pattern (apply power when it is
obvious you are not going to make the runway/before impacting the ground).
If you make it to the numbers without power - NICE WORK - GOOD PATTERN!!



Jon Finley

N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22

http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx









------------------------------------

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links


QBA Classified Ads. . .

quickheads2 <groups@...>
 

Hey All,
Back in January I paid a big chunk of change to buy the classified ads software that was running on the QBA website, and it has been a nightmare ever since.

Many of you complained in the surveys that the ads were hard to navigate, since they included "Regions - Countries - City - Location" navigation before you could even get to the ads. I approached the software developer about this and he assured me that "The Next Version" will include the option to remove that extra navigation.

The only problem was, that "The Next Version" kept getting delayed. When it was finally released, it was nearly impossible to Upgrade without deleting all of the current ads. Needless to say, because I had spent so much money on the software, I was relunctant to abandon it. In hindsight, that was a HUGE mistake. (Especially considering all of the time I've wasted trying to get the software to actually work!)

To make a long story short, I spent the weekend, moving all of the
current ads to a new software application. The new software is MUCH simpler, but I also think it will meet our needs a little better.

I know many of you last week were mentioning that you had Q's and Q components for sale. Please feel free to post these items in the QBA classifieds. The ads are 100% free! You don't need to be a current QBA member, but you'll need to have at least a free registered account in order to post/edit an ad.

Currently I have it set so that I don't have to approve new ads, they will appear instantly. However, if they start to get abused, with SPAM or other "undesirable" content. I'll have to take back some control.

Please have a look and let me know what you think. If you're logged-in you'll see a "Submit classified ad" button in the lower right corner.

http://www.quickheads.com/forsale.html

Thanks for your patience on this.

Warm regards,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com


Re: Pattern Flying and Reports

Bruce Crain
 

Doh! You're settin' the bar a little high there aren't you Jon! She's hoping to get to fly to Phoenix for Thanksgiving if the weather is good. Maybe that will appease?Bruce
Be careful out there fellas! Bruce: sounds like you owe Honey Lamb a new pair of shoes, a dozen roses, and a nice dinner out! ;-)

Cheers,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com
____________________________________________________________
Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance
If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4ce13fd41860420d30bst04vuc


Re: Pattern Flying and Reports

quickheads2 <groups@...>
 

Thanks for this Jon,
I was out in a SPAM can at my single 2000 ft runway non-towered airport this weekend with four other planes in the pattern. We were all communicating just fine, but there are several other non-towered airports in the area on the same frequency. The guys at the other airport wer actually preventing us from communicating due to "lively banter" between good ol' buddies, and a "nervous nellie" who kept stumbling over his words. There were A LOT of "Uhms and Ahs" and lengthy pauses in between each word and he kept the mic button pressed the whole time!

Be careful out there fellas! Bruce: sounds like you owe Honey Lamb a new pair of shoes, a dozen roses, and a nice dinner out! ;-)

Cheers,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Jon Finley" <jon@...> wrote:

Hi all,



This sounds like a gripe-session but I really do not mean it that way.
Perhaps this is the CFI in me coming out - I dunno. If any of you fall into
these scenario's, I hope that you will think about it and that perhaps it
will affect your flying practices.



A nearby airport had a pancake breakfast this past Saturday. Judging from
the radio traffic, it was quite busy so I flew around for awhile just
listening and enjoying the air before approaching/landing. I very
definitely get spoiled with VERY little traffic in the pattern (at most of
the airports that I frequent) or I know the guys flying and know what they
are going to do.



Based on what I observed at this fly-in, I'd like to remind everyone of a
couple things:

1. Accurate position reports are SUPER important.

2. Ideally, you should always be within gliding distance of the runway
while in the pattern.

3. Listen.



The second one is no big deal cause I like flying, an extra 5 minutes in the
air is nothing. The trouble starts when there are several of us in the
pattern all trying to slow down and do 360's - ya got airplanes flying all
over the place. I am amazed at the patterns that some people fly (and it
seems they were taught to fly that way). I understand that lots of traffic
will mess this up and that larger, faster airplanes do require more space.
The classic here is the CT that likes to fly downwind two miles out from the
runway and three miles past the approach end out before turning base, all
while doing about 40 kts (feels like it). A week or two ago, I was calling
5 miles out (entering on the upwind) while this person was calling downwind.
Knowing what was going to happen, I slowed down but still had to fly THREE
360's on downwind for spacing. It is worth noting that there is another CT
here that does not cause any problems. There are also a number of
"ultralights" that cause nearly zero traffic disruption (they keep their
speed up and keep the pattern tight).



The first one was a bit of a surprise to me as I haven't just sat back and
listened to radio chatter for that long of a period before. This particular
airport (E80) sits on a mesa, has an escarpment to the east AND west and
also has a river to the east AND west (both running north and south for many
miles). Many people were calling "three miles out over the
river/escarpment" or some variation. Given this situation, that report is
useless. Another kewl one was "Cessna xxx, abeam the numbers starting my
descent" - what?? What is that? Finally, "Cessna xxx, downwind for 22."
Sadly, there is no 22 at this airport and everyone was using 03 (yes, his
transmission stated that he was at "this" airport). I think most everyone
flies with a GPS these days and this makes position reports so easy (5 miles
northeast, 7500').



The nervous pilot is a classic, IMO. This fellow reports three miles north.
Another pilot then reports 5 miles east. The nervous pilot immediately
responds and asks the second pilot where he is. What?? He JUST told you!
Listening is as important as talking. Yes, I understanding missing someone
else's transmission and asking for clarification. This particular fellow
was asking EVERY airplane where they were after they reported where they
were!! Talk about messing up the radio traffic - he was doing it!



Out of curiosity, I noted some visual clues upon return to my home airport
(E98) and I measured the distance to these items from the runway threshold
using Google Earth. My typical (no traffic) downwind is .25 miles from the
runway, base is .5 miles from the runway. Even that tight , depending on
where the engine failure were to occur, and wind; my Q2 may or may not glide
to the runway.



A good test (no traffic, be careful, etc.) that you can perform to get an
idea if your patterns are overly large is to pull the power to idle when
abeam the numbers and fly your normal pattern (apply power when it is
obvious you are not going to make the runway/before impacting the ground).
If you make it to the numbers without power - NICE WORK - GOOD PATTERN!!



Jon Finley

N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22

http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx







Re: Pattern Flying and Reports

Jay Scheevel <scheevel@...>
 

Hi John,

Probably seems obvious, but let me add to your rant. Small uncontrolled
airports, especially in the Midwest are home to a lot of slow planes that do
not have radios/electrical systems, so there are NO position reports. Need
to keep the head out of the airplane, and look out for the guy without a
position report (or a clue). I was trained to always fly a proper pattern,
so I always do that, but plenty of folks aren't or don't. I flew to
Blakesburg this year (Antique Aircraft Assn. annual flyin) where there is no
radio usage at the field. Talk about chaos. It was all the pilots you just
described with no one on the horn. On one of my 4 go arounds (to avoid other
aircraft), there was even a Waco flying the wrong direction on downwind! On
my third final a Bonanza dropped down next to me and went in to land. He
never saw me and I fly a white and red Cherokee! I said "Looks like he wants
it more than me!", so I pulled up and went around again. Glad he didn't let
down on top of me. Be careful out there guys, especially at flyins.

Cheers,
Jay Scheevel -- Tri-Q still building


Re: Aerodynamic thoughts.

John Loram <johnl@...>
 

Is this what you had in mind?

http://www.loram.org/WheelPants.htm

-john-
www.loram.org


_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
scratchdeeper
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 4:33 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Aerodynamic thoughts.




Modern jets nowadays are not pointed in the rear, they have basically two
flat surfaces that comes together in a vertical meeting point.

The really "fast" wheelpants prefered by the faster race guys is a wheel
pant that looks pretty much the same, they don't come together in a point,
but are more like two flat side walls coming together.

Well those really into it seems to have a form that more looks like a long
heresery kiss looking from above. the walls comes together, but in the very
last part, they stretch out and ...

Roger


Re: Oil in carb

Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
 

Bruce had some good suggestions. I had a tough time sealing the plate that I put on when I removed the vacuume pump drive. There always seems to be a drop of oil at the lower part of the carb, but not a puddle.... There are so many places it can leak oil. A big culprit is the push rod tubes.
Tighten the oil sump nuts, valve cover screws, in fact it wouldn't hurt to check the cylinder nits for torque at this time.
Mike Q200 N3QP

sdhall wrote:

Hello:
I have been doing a little bit of taxi testing recently, and have been
noticing a little bit of oil drip down from the carb, leading to a small
puddle after engine shutdown. The engine is an O-200 and has about 60 hrs
since rebuild.
Any ideas what may be causing this? and possible remedy?
thanks
Sanjay


Re: Oil in carb

Bruce Crain
 

Try and follow the trail up to see where it is coming from Sanjay. Sometimes you can cover the area with baby powder and then go taxi to see where the trail leads.Is the oil on the outside of the carb? If so I would think the crank case halves may have a seep or the return oil tubes from the Cylinder heads could be the likely culprit.Bruce


____________________________________________________________
Moms Asked to Return to School
Grant Funding May Be Available to Those That Qualify.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4ce05e02488fe1f7e2cst04vuc


Oil in carb

sdhall <sdhall@...>
 

Hello:
I have been doing a little bit of taxi testing recently, and have been
noticing a little bit of oil drip down from the carb, leading to a small
puddle after engine shutdown. The engine is an O-200 and has about 60 hrs
since rebuild.
Any ideas what may be causing this? and possible remedy?
thanks
Sanjay


Re: Another First

Bill Allen
 

Hi Mike,

I'm flying out from England to get a break from all the cold and rain here,
arriving 25th and staying 3 weeks.

We'll have to meet up and swap rides/do some air 2 air.

You may remember me? I have a LongEz which I flew over from England in2005
and I now keep it at my hangar home near Key West, Summerland Key, FD51.

best regards,

Bill Allen
LongEze160 N99BA FD51
27years 700hrs

On 14 November 2010 01:55, Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...> wrote:



Flight report.
Today Saturday Nov 11, 2010 we headed to the Winter Haven KGIF flyin.
The morning temp was 65F and we were heading for a high of around 80F.
Light 6K wind out of the NE. We left KPIE around 10:45am and did the
usual over the top of Tampa to the east route. 2600' up and buzzing
along happily. We got to Winter Haven and it was busy on the radio.
Lots of folks also saw how nice the day was and were attracted there by
the BBQ. Had a in process Vari-Vigen, a few EZE, Cozy, two SQ2000, a
real nice P51 maybe 1/2 scale. My Buddy flew in in his Warner Sportster
and another friend in his RV6A. The Open cockpit Sportster gathered a
crowd. No crazy pilots, all pretty much flying the pattern and being
safe, well done! Tons of beautiful RV's there. Then it came time to
fly back.

The original plan was to get some air to air video of my buddies RV6A.
Turns out the Sportster took off in front of me so I made the snap
decision to get some video of him first. The Sportster didn't seem to
hear me. It was weird, I could hear him but he wasn't responding to
me. I got some video of him in flight and then tuned to the RV6A
frequency we had agreed on to see where he was. He heard me a couple of
times said I was unreadable. Odd I thought. He said that he was
turning for his airport so we said our goodbyes.

I got back to PIE and called them but got the dreaded "unreadable"
back. So I tried their ground freq. I know that if my voltage is low
the crappy com radio works on ground but not tower... Anyway that
didn't work either. Humm what to do. I remembered that I stored
emergency procedures in the computer so I punch em up. Emergency
=squawk 7700 and then radio broke = 7600. So I squawked 7700 and flew
straight toward PIE. They came back with "Aircraft to the west Ident".
That was me so I pressed the little green button. They must have got
the idea that I wanted to land there and gave me a new squawk code.
Gave me a straight in to RWY 9 so nice of them. When I was near the
numbers they recognized me and used my numbers to clear me to land.
Uneventful landing and as I got to the taxiway they told me to stop and
wait for the emergency vehicles. WHAT! Turns out there was a fire
truck following me down the runway, I guess. You can't see to the back
on a Q very well! Anyway an airport truck pulled beside me and motioned
for me to follow him, which I did until he got close to my hangar and
then I just pulled in there and shut down. He comes over and says "you
lost your radio?" I said yup. He said "Thought so", and that was it,
they took off. Hopefully this was all the excitement they had today!

So the plane is broke again. Always something to work on. I also used
Sam's cold start procedure for the first start in the morning and it
took like 5 blades from the starter before roaring to life so I gota
clean the plugs anyway.

Y'all be safe out there.
Mike Q200 N3QP
http://www.warnerair.com/q200/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Aerodynamic thoughts.

Sam Hoskins
 

I tried to find skinnier wheel/brake assemblies. Found some with a German
company but they cost a lot. $750 per?

On Nov 14, 2010 2:03 PM, "Isaksson Roger" <scratchdeeper@...> wrote:
Sam,

Thanks, you've go the right idea there, good thinking Sam, ( hey I am
telling
ya all, College pays out)..yes this is what I am looking for. Looks like
you
have created slickydick there, good deal.

Every fraction of an inch in efficency adds up. Will study your set up,
thanks....preciajt it.

In retrospect, how much of an efficient increase differences did it do in
your
case, and are you happy with the way it came out, or... if you were to
redo it
today, would you do it differently, or do you feel you pretty much hit it
spot
on?

Roger



________________________________
From: Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 8:23:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Aerodynamic thoughts.

Roger, is this what you are looking for? Start at the bottom, and work
your
way up.

http://samhoskins.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_archive.html

<http://samhoskins.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_archive.html>Sam



On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 6:32 PM, scratchdeeper <scratchdeeper@...
wrote:



Modern jets nowadays are not pointed in the rear, they have basically two
flat surfaces that comes together in a vertical meeting point.

The really "fast" wheelpants prefered by the faster race guys is a wheel
pant that looks pretty much the same, they don't come together in a
point,
but are more like two flat side walls coming together.

Well those really into it seems to have a form that more looks like a
long
heresery kiss looking from above. the walls comes together, but in the
very
last part, they stretch out and seem to follow each other with a more
shallow angle, and the departure point is very sharp, and for the shape,
a
fairly long vertical edge, like the trailing edge of a wing.

I can see why that is preferable, lets say a wheelpant that has a pointed
end, the air coming together will come from all sides, the air from above
will be directed down, the air from below will be directed up, and so on
all
around the wheelpant, and at the meeting point, all that air will have a
hillarious tumultous gathering of forces , compressing, all trying to fit
in
at a point, and it will be a fairly distinct source of turbulence and
drag
at that point.

By having two flat sides converging, the meeting point at the departure
point from the wheelpant will be very small, thus decreasing the drag.

The "per plans" shape is pretty much a point meeting, anyone have
wheelpants that are shaped more like two sides meeting, and a longer
vertical departure edge in the back of the wheelpants?

Pro's cons?

Roger







------------------------------------

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links








Re: Aerodynamic thoughts.

Isaksson Roger <scratchdeeper@...>
 

Sam,

Thanks, you've go the right idea there,  good thinking Sam,  ( hey I am telling
ya all, College pays out)..yes this is what I am looking for. Looks like you
have created slickydick there, good deal.

Every fraction of an inch in efficency adds up. Will study your set up,
thanks....preciajt it.

In retrospect, how much of an efficient increase differences did it do in your
case, and are you happy with the way it came out, or... if you were to redo it
today, would you do it differently, or do you feel you pretty much hit it spot
on?

Roger



________________________________
From: Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 8:23:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Aerodynamic thoughts.

Roger, is this what you are looking for?  Start at the bottom, and work your
way up.

http://samhoskins.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_archive.html

<http://samhoskins.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_archive.html>Sam



On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 6:32 PM, scratchdeeper <scratchdeeper@...>wrote:



Modern jets nowadays are not pointed in the rear, they have basically two
flat surfaces that comes together in a vertical meeting point.

The really "fast" wheelpants prefered by the faster race guys is a wheel
pant that looks pretty much the same, they don't come together in a point,
but are more like two flat side walls coming together.

Well those really into it seems to have a form that more looks like a long
heresery kiss looking from above. the walls comes together, but in the very
last part, they stretch out and seem to follow each other with a more
shallow angle, and the departure point is very sharp, and for the shape, a
fairly long vertical edge, like the trailing edge of a wing.

I can see why that is preferable, lets say a wheelpant that has a pointed
end, the air coming together will come from all sides, the air from above
will be directed down, the air from below will be directed up, and so on all
around the wheelpant, and at the meeting point, all that air will have a
hillarious tumultous gathering of forces , compressing, all trying to fit in
at a point, and it will be a fairly distinct source of turbulence and drag
at that point.

By having two flat sides converging, the meeting point at the departure
point from the wheelpant will be very small, thus decreasing the drag.

The "per plans" shape is pretty much a point meeting, anyone have
wheelpants that are shaped more like two sides meeting, and a longer
vertical departure edge in the back of the wheelpants?

Pro's cons?

Roger

 





------------------------------------

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Pattern Flying and Reports

Bruce Crain
 

Amen Jon! And I second the motion! Maybe a CD on proper pattern transmissions would help when folks start learning to fly. That would be of great value. Then perhaps a bantering back and forth with their instructor while flying a toy airplane into a class B, C, and D airspace would be of efficacious also. "Honey Lamb" and I were almost run over at Oshkosh (of all places for a novice to enter) by a Baron when he entered the pattern totally with out the NOTAMs. He just barreled his way straight in from no where and then pulled over into our final approach. The tower didn't see him enter straight in from the south and cut us off our base leg. Then they moved him over to our side (2 runways). He keyed the mic and said "but there is a plane over there" and then he pulled over and we moved over to avoid being run down by him. The tower had obviously not seen us either as they said "good job Baron". If Joanne had not seen him from her side we would have been toast. Pattern work, see and avoid, a radio transmissions are of much more importance than we know. If you don't know how to communicate (and listen) get some help. Someone is out there that can help.Bruce ---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Jon Finley" <jon@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: [Q-LIST] Pattern Flying and Reports
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 08:44:30 -0700


Hi all,

This sounds like a gripe-session but I really do not mean it that way.
Perhaps this is the CFI in me coming out - I dunno. If any of you fall into
these scenario's, I hope that you will think about it and that perhaps it
will affect your flying practices.

A nearby airport had a pancake breakfast this past Saturday. Judging from
the radio traffic, it was quite busy so I flew around for awhile just
listening and enjoying the air before approaching/landing. I very
definitely get spoiled with VERY little traffic in the pattern (at most of
the airports that I frequent) or I know the guys flying and know what they
are going to do.

Based on what I observed at this fly-in, I'd like to remind everyone of a
couple things:

1. Accurate position reports are SUPER important.

2. Ideally, you should always be within gliding distance of the runway
while in the pattern.

3. Listen.

The second one is no big deal cause I like flying, an extra 5 minutes in the
air is nothing. The trouble starts when there are several of us in the
pattern all trying to slow down and do 360's - ya got airplanes flying all
over the place. I am amazed at the patterns that some people fly (and it
seems they were taught to fly that way). I understand that lots of traffic
will mess this up and that larger, faster airplanes do require more space.
The classic here is the CT that likes to fly downwind two miles out from the
runway and three miles past the approach end out before turning base, all
while doing about 40 kts (feels like it). A week or two ago, I was calling
5 miles out (entering on the upwind) while this person was calling downwind.
Knowing what was going to happen, I slowed down but still had to fly THREE
360's on downwind for spacing. It is worth noting that there is another CT
here that does not cause any problems. There are also a number of
"ultralights" that cause nearly zero traffic disruption (they keep their
speed up and keep the pattern tight).

The first one was a bit of a surprise to me as I haven't just sat back and
listened to radio chatter for that long of a period before. This particular
airport (E80) sits on a mesa, has an escarpment to the east AND west and
also has a river to the east AND west (both running north and south for many
miles). Many people were calling "three miles out over the
river/escarpment" or some variation. Given this situation, that report is
useless. Another kewl one was "Cessna xxx, abeam the numbers starting my
descent" - what?? What is that? Finally, "Cessna xxx, downwind for 22."
Sadly, there is no 22 at this airport and everyone was using 03 (yes, his
transmission stated that he was at "this" airport). I think most everyone
flies with a GPS these days and this makes position reports so easy (5 miles
northeast, 7500').

The nervous pilot is a classic, IMO. This fellow reports three miles north.
Another pilot then reports 5 miles east. The nervous pilot immediately
responds and asks the second pilot where he is. What?? He JUST told you!
Listening is as important as talking. Yes, I understanding missing someone
else's transmission and asking for clarification. This particular fellow
was asking EVERY airplane where they were after they reported where they
were!! Talk about messing up the radio traffic - he was doing it!

Out of curiosity, I noted some visual clues upon return to my home airport
(E98) and I measured the distance to these items from the runway threshold
using Google Earth. My typical (no traffic) downwind is .25 miles from the
runway, base is .5 miles from the runway. Even that tight , depending on
where the engine failure were to occur, and wind; my Q2 may or may not glide
to the runway.

A good test (no traffic, be careful, etc.) that you can perform to get an
idea if your patterns are overly large is to pull the power to idle when
abeam the numbers and fly your normal pattern (apply power when it is
obvious you are not going to make the runway/before impacting the ground).
If you make it to the numbers without power - NICE WORK - GOOD PATTERN!!

Jon Finley

N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22

http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx





____________________________________________________________
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Grant Funding May Be Available to Those That Qualify.
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Re: Pattern Flying and Reports

Rick Hole
 

Ditto your comments. I also work from an untowered field and note how
sloppy radio calls can get. Often times they say nothing of use in telling
other traffic where and what is happening. Three of my peeves:

"Taking the active." This tells nothing, all runways are active at pilot's
discretion. Please tell which runway!

"Any traffic in the pattern please advise." One of the few radio
transmission the FAA specifically asks us NOT to send. Simply give your own
location and intentions and that will prompt other traffic to advise.

Chatting on CTAF. It is not a party line.

Rick


Re: Pattern Flying and Reports

Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
 

Amen! Preach it brother Jon!



Jon Finley wrote:

Hi all,


This sounds like a gripe-session but I really do not mean it that way.
Perhaps this is the CFI in me coming out - I dunno. If any of you fall into
these scenario's, I hope that you will think about it and that perhaps it
will affect your flying practices.

A nearby airport had a pancake breakfast this past Saturday. Judging from
the radio traffic, it was quite busy so I flew around for awhile just
listening and enjoying the air before approaching/landing. I very
definitely get spoiled with VERY little traffic in the pattern (at most of
the airports that I frequent) or I know the guys flying and know what they
are going to do.

Based on what I observed at this fly-in, I'd like to remind everyone of a
couple things:

1. Accurate position reports are SUPER important.

2. Ideally, you should always be within gliding distance of the runway
while in the pattern.
3. Listen.


The second one is no big deal cause I like flying, an extra 5 minutes in the
air is nothing. The trouble starts when there are several of us in the
pattern all trying to slow down and do 360's - ya got airplanes flying all
over the place. I am amazed at the patterns that some people fly (and it
seems they were taught to fly that way). I understand that lots of traffic
will mess this up and that larger, faster airplanes do require more space.
The classic here is the CT that likes to fly downwind two miles out from the
runway and three miles past the approach end out before turning base, all
while doing about 40 kts (feels like it). A week or two ago, I was calling
5 miles out (entering on the upwind) while this person was calling downwind.
Knowing what was going to happen, I slowed down but still had to fly THREE
360's on downwind for spacing. It is worth noting that there is another CT
here that does not cause any problems. There are also a number of
"ultralights" that cause nearly zero traffic disruption (they keep their
speed up and keep the pattern tight).


The first one was a bit of a surprise to me as I haven't just sat back and
listened to radio chatter for that long of a period before. This particular
airport (E80) sits on a mesa, has an escarpment to the east AND west and
also has a river to the east AND west (both running north and south for many
miles). Many people were calling "three miles out over the
river/escarpment" or some variation. Given this situation, that report is
useless. Another kewl one was "Cessna xxx, abeam the numbers starting my
descent" - what?? What is that? Finally, "Cessna xxx, downwind for 22."
Sadly, there is no 22 at this airport and everyone was using 03 (yes, his
transmission stated that he was at "this" airport). I think most everyone
flies with a GPS these days and this makes position reports so easy (5 miles
northeast, 7500').


The nervous pilot is a classic, IMO. This fellow reports three miles north.
Another pilot then reports 5 miles east. The nervous pilot immediately
responds and asks the second pilot where he is. What?? He JUST told you!
Listening is as important as talking. Yes, I understanding missing someone
else's transmission and asking for clarification. This particular fellow
was asking EVERY airplane where they were after they reported where they
were!! Talk about messing up the radio traffic - he was doing it!


Out of curiosity, I noted some visual clues upon return to my home airport
(E98) and I measured the distance to these items from the runway threshold
using Google Earth. My typical (no traffic) downwind is .25 miles from the
runway, base is .5 miles from the runway. Even that tight , depending on
where the engine failure were to occur, and wind; my Q2 may or may not glide
to the runway.


A good test (no traffic, be careful, etc.) that you can perform to get an
idea if your patterns are overly large is to pull the power to idle when
abeam the numbers and fly your normal pattern (apply power when it is
obvious you are not going to make the runway/before impacting the ground).
If you make it to the numbers without power - NICE WORK - GOOD PATTERN!!


Jon Finley

N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22

http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx







------------------------------------

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links





Re: Aerodynamic thoughts.

Sam Hoskins
 

Roger, is this what you are looking for? Start at the bottom, and work your
way up.

http://samhoskins.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_archive.html

<http://samhoskins.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_archive.html>Sam



On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 6:32 PM, scratchdeeper <scratchdeeper@...>wrote:



Modern jets nowadays are not pointed in the rear, they have basically two
flat surfaces that comes together in a vertical meeting point.

The really "fast" wheelpants prefered by the faster race guys is a wheel
pant that looks pretty much the same, they don't come together in a point,
but are more like two flat side walls coming together.

Well those really into it seems to have a form that more looks like a long
heresery kiss looking from above. the walls comes together, but in the very
last part, they stretch out and seem to follow each other with a more
shallow angle, and the departure point is very sharp, and for the shape, a
fairly long vertical edge, like the trailing edge of a wing.

I can see why that is preferable, lets say a wheelpant that has a pointed
end, the air coming together will come from all sides, the air from above
will be directed down, the air from below will be directed up, and so on all
around the wheelpant, and at the meeting point, all that air will have a
hillarious tumultous gathering of forces , compressing, all trying to fit in
at a point, and it will be a fairly distinct source of turbulence and drag
at that point.

By having two flat sides converging, the meeting point at the departure
point from the wheelpant will be very small, thus decreasing the drag.

The "per plans" shape is pretty much a point meeting, anyone have
wheelpants that are shaped more like two sides meeting, and a longer
vertical departure edge in the back of the wheelpants?

Pro's cons?

Roger



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Pattern Flying and Reports

Jon Finley <jon@...>
 

Hi all,



This sounds like a gripe-session but I really do not mean it that way.
Perhaps this is the CFI in me coming out - I dunno. If any of you fall into
these scenario's, I hope that you will think about it and that perhaps it
will affect your flying practices.



A nearby airport had a pancake breakfast this past Saturday. Judging from
the radio traffic, it was quite busy so I flew around for awhile just
listening and enjoying the air before approaching/landing. I very
definitely get spoiled with VERY little traffic in the pattern (at most of
the airports that I frequent) or I know the guys flying and know what they
are going to do.



Based on what I observed at this fly-in, I'd like to remind everyone of a
couple things:

1. Accurate position reports are SUPER important.

2. Ideally, you should always be within gliding distance of the runway
while in the pattern.

3. Listen.



The second one is no big deal cause I like flying, an extra 5 minutes in the
air is nothing. The trouble starts when there are several of us in the
pattern all trying to slow down and do 360's - ya got airplanes flying all
over the place. I am amazed at the patterns that some people fly (and it
seems they were taught to fly that way). I understand that lots of traffic
will mess this up and that larger, faster airplanes do require more space.
The classic here is the CT that likes to fly downwind two miles out from the
runway and three miles past the approach end out before turning base, all
while doing about 40 kts (feels like it). A week or two ago, I was calling
5 miles out (entering on the upwind) while this person was calling downwind.
Knowing what was going to happen, I slowed down but still had to fly THREE
360's on downwind for spacing. It is worth noting that there is another CT
here that does not cause any problems. There are also a number of
"ultralights" that cause nearly zero traffic disruption (they keep their
speed up and keep the pattern tight).



The first one was a bit of a surprise to me as I haven't just sat back and
listened to radio chatter for that long of a period before. This particular
airport (E80) sits on a mesa, has an escarpment to the east AND west and
also has a river to the east AND west (both running north and south for many
miles). Many people were calling "three miles out over the
river/escarpment" or some variation. Given this situation, that report is
useless. Another kewl one was "Cessna xxx, abeam the numbers starting my
descent" - what?? What is that? Finally, "Cessna xxx, downwind for 22."
Sadly, there is no 22 at this airport and everyone was using 03 (yes, his
transmission stated that he was at "this" airport). I think most everyone
flies with a GPS these days and this makes position reports so easy (5 miles
northeast, 7500').



The nervous pilot is a classic, IMO. This fellow reports three miles north.
Another pilot then reports 5 miles east. The nervous pilot immediately
responds and asks the second pilot where he is. What?? He JUST told you!
Listening is as important as talking. Yes, I understanding missing someone
else's transmission and asking for clarification. This particular fellow
was asking EVERY airplane where they were after they reported where they
were!! Talk about messing up the radio traffic - he was doing it!



Out of curiosity, I noted some visual clues upon return to my home airport
(E98) and I measured the distance to these items from the runway threshold
using Google Earth. My typical (no traffic) downwind is .25 miles from the
runway, base is .5 miles from the runway. Even that tight , depending on
where the engine failure were to occur, and wind; my Q2 may or may not glide
to the runway.



A good test (no traffic, be careful, etc.) that you can perform to get an
idea if your patterns are overly large is to pull the power to idle when
abeam the numbers and fly your normal pattern (apply power when it is
obvious you are not going to make the runway/before impacting the ground).
If you make it to the numbers without power - NICE WORK - GOOD PATTERN!!



Jon Finley

N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22

http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx


Re: Another First

Jon Finley <jon@...>
 

Hi Mike,

I sure do love my uncontrolled airport!! ;-)

Last weekend I flew up to Albuquerque (AEG) for breakfast. Everyone
complains about how terrible the tower transmission quality is there but I
was in for a surprise. When I transmitted on tower, I heard squealing in my
headset. They could half hear me and we played the "20 questions" game to
get in and land (if you are west, click your mike....). I departed as -2 in
a flight with some friends so didn't have to talk on the radio. Every other
frequency is fine and my buddies report that my radio is fine (on our normal
frequencies).

This past week I reset all BNC connections.

I flew up to AEG again this past Friday, hit the transmit button, and all
was clear! Could it be so simple?? Yes, it was in my case.

Get 'er fixed!!

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Mike Dwyer
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 6:56 PM
To: undisclosed-recipients:
Subject: [Q-LIST] Another First

Flight report.
<SNIP>

I got back to PIE and called them but got the dreaded "unreadable"
back.
<SNIP>

Y'all be safe out there.
Mike Q200 N3QP
http://www.warnerair.com/q200/


Re: Another First

Sam Hoskins
 

For hot starts I used:
Tie it down
Mags off
Mixture _ IDLE CUTOFF
THROTTLE WOT
Pull 10 blades
Throttle 1/4" open
Mixture full rich
Start

On Nov 13, 2010 7:56 PM, "Mike Dwyer" <mdwyer@...> wrote:
Flight report.
Today Saturday Nov 11, 2010 we headed to the Winter Haven KGIF flyin.
The morning temp was 65F and we were heading for a high of around 80F.
Light 6K wind out of the NE. We left KPIE around 10:45am and did the
usual over the top of Tampa to the east route. 2600' up and buzzing
along happily. We got to Winter Haven and it was busy on the radio.
Lots of folks also saw how nice the day was and were attracted there by
the BBQ. Had a in process Vari-Vigen, a few EZE, Cozy, two SQ2000, a
real nice P51 maybe 1/2 scale. My Buddy flew in in his Warner Sportster
and another friend in his RV6A. The Open cockpit Sportster gathered a
crowd. No crazy pilots, all pretty much flying the pattern and being
safe, well done! Tons of beautiful RV's there. Then it came time to
fly back.

The original plan was to get some air to air video of my buddies RV6A.
Turns out the Sportster took off in front of me so I made the snap
decision to get some video of him first. The Sportster didn't seem to
hear me. It was weird, I could hear him but he wasn't responding to
me. I got some video of him in flight and then tuned to the RV6A
frequency we had agreed on to see where he was. He heard me a couple of
times said I was unreadable. Odd I thought. He said that he was
turning for his airport so we said our goodbyes.

I got back to PIE and called them but got the dreaded "unreadable"
back. So I tried their ground freq. I know that if my voltage is low
the crappy com radio works on ground but not tower... Anyway that
didn't work either. Humm what to do. I remembered that I stored
emergency procedures in the computer so I punch em up. Emergency
=squawk 7700 and then radio broke = 7600. So I squawked 7700 and flew
straight toward PIE. They came back with "Aircraft to the west Ident".
That was me so I pressed the little green button. They must have got
the idea that I wanted to land there and gave me a new squawk code.
Gave me a straight in to RWY 9 so nice of them. When I was near the
numbers they recognized me and used my numbers to clear me to land.
Uneventful landing and as I got to the taxiway they told me to stop and
wait for the emergency vehicles. WHAT! Turns out there was a fire
truck following me down the runway, I guess. You can't see to the back
on a Q very well! Anyway an airport truck pulled beside me and motioned
for me to follow him, which I did until he got close to my hangar and
then I just pulled in there and shut down. He comes over and says "you
lost your radio?" I said yup. He said "Thought so", and that was it,
they took off. Hopefully this was all the excitement they had today!

So the plane is broke again. Always something to work on. I also used
Sam's cold start procedure for the first start in the morning and it
took like 5 blades from the starter before roaring to life so I gota
clean the plugs anyway.

Y'all be safe out there.
Mike Q200 N3QP
http://www.warnerair.com/q200/


Re: Another First

Bruce Crain
 

Good job Mike!Cool heads prevail! You da man!I flew today with only about 4 1/2 gals on board at 50 degrees F. The Q leaped off the runway and climbed out from 1176' msl to 4500' msl in about 6 miles! I did 3 aileron rolls and a couple of stalls and headed back in to WDG!Bruce ---------- Original Message ----------
From: Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
Subject: [Q-LIST] Another First
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 20:55:54 -0500


Flight report.
Today Saturday Nov 11, 2010 we headed to the Winter Haven KGIF flyin.
The morning temp was 65F and we were heading for a high of around 80F.
Light 6K wind out of the NE. We left KPIE around 10:45am and did the
usual over the top of Tampa to the east route. 2600' up and buzzing
along happily. We got to Winter Haven and it was busy on the radio.
Lots of folks also saw how nice the day was and were attracted there by
the BBQ. Had a in process Vari-Vigen, a few EZE, Cozy, two SQ2000, a
real nice P51 maybe 1/2 scale. My Buddy flew in in his Warner Sportster
and another friend in his RV6A. The Open cockpit Sportster gathered a
crowd. No crazy pilots, all pretty much flying the pattern and being
safe, well done! Tons of beautiful RV's there. Then it came time to
fly back.

The original plan was to get some air to air video of my buddies RV6A.
Turns out the Sportster took off in front of me so I made the snap
decision to get some video of him first. The Sportster didn't seem to
hear me. It was weird, I could hear him but he wasn't responding to
me. I got some video of him in flight and then tuned to the RV6A
frequency we had agreed on to see where he was. He heard me a couple of
times said I was unreadable. Odd I thought. He said that he was
turning for his airport so we said our goodbyes.

I got back to PIE and called them but got the dreaded "unreadable"
back. So I tried their ground freq. I know that if my voltage is low
the crappy com radio works on ground but not tower... Anyway that
didn't work either. Humm what to do. I remembered that I stored
emergency procedures in the computer so I punch em up. Emergency
=squawk 7700 and then radio broke = 7600. So I squawked 7700 and flew
straight toward PIE. They came back with "Aircraft to the west Ident".
That was me so I pressed the little green button. They must have got
the idea that I wanted to land there and gave me a new squawk code.
Gave me a straight in to RWY 9 so nice of them. When I was near the
numbers they recognized me and used my numbers to clear me to land.
Uneventful landing and as I got to the taxiway they told me to stop and
wait for the emergency vehicles. WHAT! Turns out there was a fire
truck following me down the runway, I guess. You can't see to the back
on a Q very well! Anyway an airport truck pulled beside me and motioned
for me to follow him, which I did until he got close to my hangar and
then I just pulled in there and shut down. He comes over and says "you
lost your radio?" I said yup. He said "Thought so", and that was it,
they took off. Hopefully this was all the excitement they had today!

So the plane is broke again. Always something to work on. I also used
Sam's cold start procedure for the first start in the morning and it
took like 5 blades from the starter before roaring to life so I gota
clean the plugs anyway.

Y'all be safe out there.
Mike Q200 N3QP
http://www.warnerair.com/q200/



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