Date   

New O-200 owner

Jon Matcho <jmatcho@...>
 

Thanks everyone for the help towards me deciding to purchase an O-200.  I found and bought one needing service, but it has this strange looking airplane attached to it.  ;-)

 

The front gear collapsed, but beyond the MT prop being wrecked there does not appear to be much damage at all to the structure and hopefully the engine.  I plan on putting a fixed pitch on it while saving up for the MT repair.

 

At this moment I do not have hangar space and so I am planning to bring home to my garage to get fixed up.  Some questions I am working on answers for:

 

1) Insurance.  Will my homeowners cover some "stuff" I have while at an airport?  And/or should I get some basic hull insurance, or just take my chances until it's ready?

 

2) Transport.  I'm trying to narrow-down the dimensions for a flatbed trailer.  I suppose a box truck could work as well using dollies.  I got a few ideas from the pics on the Q-LIST Yahoo group site.

 

Tips, suggestions, etc. are welcome.

 

Jon Matcho

New owner of Earnest Martin's TriQ-200 N479E

Imminent Q2/Q200 builder (unstarted kit also on the way)


Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

JMasal@...
 

Wether you use expanding urethane, stacked foam or artichoke hearts to make an airfoil make sure you STATIC TEST IT and not half-assed but like the professionals do.

j.


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Perry dmperry1012@... [Q-LIST]
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Sat, Sep 6, 2014 10:52 pm
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

 
Hello Jim:

Your advice to contact some of the other people in the QBA is excellent; actually, I did just that.  A few years ago I went to Livermore, talked to Bob Farnum and Barry Weber and we came up with a plan for reconstruction.  But then I ran into my own anxieties. 

The builder of the project I took over built and flew a RV-4 and an ultralight; however he never completed a composite project and I can no longer talk to him (in very poor health living in another state).  The builder's log consists mainly of photographs which tell me a lot -- but don't tell me some critical factors.  I remember the cause of Bob McFarland's Fatality: wing assembled with the wrong materials (expanding urethane) leading to delamination.  I think there was another wing failure involving a foam core assembled from several pieces of foam stacked together.  Not sure I can complete this project -- Still thinking about it.

The advice about the Dragonfly spar is excellent.  I will see about getting a set of plans.  On the other hand, maybe I should just get the Quickie plans and start over, build the single seater.

Mike


On 9/5/2014 7:43 AM, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 
Mike,

It would have been very dumb of me to print detail plans for alternate spars in QTALK (I didn't just fall off a turnip truck, hee hee). That would be hand holding in my estimation AND liability dangerous given the critical nature of the part and the lack of successful flight testing. In the spirit of "education and recreation" and sweat equity I pointed out possible directions to go. For example many Dragonflys are operating successfully with builder built spars. As noted in another post, Doyle and Weishaar built one with their own brainpower which was proved successful. I was told QAC's first one used all carbon layups a la the GU... and there were a couple other trials underway about which more I have not heard.. We have some sharp cookies in the QBA and I believe if I or any of them had your canard and if the spar was not mutilated we could extract it and use it in a new build. If you had built a Q in the first place you would have enough composite knowledge and skill to figure out how to do it. Sweat equity... not avoidable with a skinny bankroll.

You are wise to be suspicious of the rest of the build job given the problem with the canard. Your $$$ AND Life depend on it. You might coax a successful builder to examine your carcass to give you some peace of mind... or not.

j



Re: Off List re Q200 Spar

John Hartley
 

Oops, inside voice Mike.


Off List re Q200 Spar

Mike Perry
 

Hello Jim:

There is another factor I am not putting on the list at this time:  I'm having trouble with the FAA over my medical.  I served in Vietnam (Marines), then went to Medical School and worked in ERs.  Bad combination -- I have problems with PTSD type symptoms, somewhat worse since I retired.

Actually, I am quite angry with the FAA medical department.  I have a treatment plan that involves Meditation, frequent church attendance with the Franciscans, and monthly counseling with my psychiatrist.  The treatment plan works well.  The FAA treats me like a suspect in a criminal conspiracy -- they seem sure I am taking drugs now or likely to in the future. 

I just completed my physical, and I altered some of the statements to emphasize the conservative approach I have taken.  If they harasses me this time I will probably sell the Cessna and abandon the Q 200 project.  As you can imagine, this makes it hard for me to even think about working on the Q 200.  If they change the requirement for the third class medical I would re-consider.

Please do not mention this on the list -- I do not want to deal with the reactions I expect. 

Mike


Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

Mike Perry
 

Hello Jim:

Your advice to contact some of the other people in the QBA is excellent; actually, I did just that.  A few years ago I went to Livermore, talked to Bob Farnum and Barry Weber and we came up with a plan for reconstruction.  But then I ran into my own anxieties. 

The builder of the project I took over built and flew a RV-4 and an ultralight; however he never completed a composite project and I can no longer talk to him (in very poor health living in another state).  The builder's log consists mainly of photographs which tell me a lot -- but don't tell me some critical factors.  I remember the cause of Bob McFarland's Fatality: wing assembled with the wrong materials (expanding urethane) leading to delamination.  I think there was another wing failure involving a foam core assembled from several pieces of foam stacked together.  Not sure I can complete this project -- Still thinking about it.

The advice about the Dragonfly spar is excellent.  I will see about getting a set of plans.  On the other hand, maybe I should just get the Quickie plans and start over, build the single seater.

Mike


On 9/5/2014 7:43 AM, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 

Mike,


It would have been very dumb of me to print detail plans for alternate spars in QTALK (I didn't just fall off a turnip truck, hee hee). That would be hand holding in my estimation AND liability dangerous given the critical nature of the part and the lack of successful flight testing. In the spirit of "education and recreation" and sweat equity I pointed out possible directions to go. For example many Dragonflys are operating successfully with builder built spars. As noted in another post, Doyle and Weishaar built one with their own brainpower which was proved successful. I was told QAC's first one used all carbon layups a la the GU... and there were a couple other trials underway about which more I have not heard.. We have some sharp cookies in the QBA and I believe if I or any of them had your canard and if the spar was not mutilated we could extract it and use it in a new build. If you had built a Q in the first place you would have enough composite knowledge and skill to figure out how to do it. Sweat equity... not avoidable with a skinny bankroll.

You are wise to be suspicious of the rest of the build job given the problem with the canard. Your $$$ AND Life depend on it. You might coax a successful builder to examine your carcass to give you some peace of mind... or not.

j



Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

Allan Farr
 

Litigation (or the threat of litigation) seems to be dragging your society down somewhat. Here in New Zealand we have ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) It helps prevent a lot of litigation issues, so if you want to sell your a/c and have more or less zero liability just ship it down here;)

 




---In Q-LIST@..., <davecove@...> wrote :

I don't know anything short of serious tort reform that would stop the seeming obligatory litigation that follows every unfortunate event.

I am not working on a Q at this time, a CH-750 has my attention at the moment (I want to be able to take off from my own 10 acres). A Q-200 is next because I want to go fast. :)

Dave


Progress report - Oil Sump repairs

Sam Hoskins
 


Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

JMasal@...
 

Mike,

It would have been very dumb of me to print detail plans for alternate spars in QTALK (I didn't just fall off a turnip truck, hee hee). That would be hand holding in my estimation AND liability dangerous given the critical nature of the part and the lack of successful flight testing. In the spirit of "education and recreation" and sweat equity I pointed out possible directions to go. For example many Dragonflys are operating successfully with builder built spars. As noted in another post, Doyle and Weishaar built one with their own brainpower which was proved successful. I was told QAC's first one used all carbon layups a la the GU... and there were a couple other trials underway about which more I have not heard.. We have some sharp cookies in the QBA and I believe if I or any of them had your canard and if the spar was not mutilated we could extract it and use it in a new build. If you had built a Q in the first place you would have enough composite knowledge and skill to figure out how to do it. Sweat equity... not avoidable with a skinny bankroll.

You are wise to be suspicious of the rest of the build job given the problem with the canard. Your $$$ AND Life depend on it. You might coax a successful builder to examine your carcass to give you some peace of mind... or not.

j



-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Perry dmperry1012@... [Q-LIST]
To: Q-LIST
Sent: Thu, Sep 4, 2014 2:20 pm
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

 
Hello Jim:

I should have been more specific:  It is hard to WIN a suit involving experimental aircraft, but it isn't hard to file one.  Sometimes defending yourself costs so much you go out of business anyway -- that's what happened to QAC if I remember correctly (they won the appeal but went into bankruptcy anyway).  And you are correct -- those are risks that keep people from publishing the info I'm looking for.

The (former) editor of Q-Talk probably knows better than me, but I don't remember 3 spar plans in the back issues.  In fact I don't remember any suitable for a Q-2 or Q-200 (variants for the Tri-Q certainly were, and Alan Thayer's spar-less Q-1 canard). 

My own project is stalled by a canard problem -- the original builder did not assemble the canard (LS-1) per plans.  Thus my interest in a replacement spar.  The spar sweep is completely wrong, wheels 6 inches aft of proper location.  That's probably reparable, but if he didn't do that right, should I trust any of the rest of his work?  Hard Question.  I can buy a replacement spar from Fast Little Airplanes, ~ $3700 (and worth every penny) but it's hard when I'm not sure about the rest of the project.  I guess the "sweat equity" approach would be hard also. 

If you could point me at a spar design I could build and use in a Q-200 I would appreciate it.

Mike

On 9/3/2014 10:28 PM, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 
Mike, I dunno why you feel you took a hit for an innocent question (or why I should feel I took a hit for downplaying freedom of speech which I don't), I'm just answering your question. I think I have been involved in exp aviation longer than you and have seen much more than you have. Maybe not, But if it is hard to sue the builder or pilot what do you think brought an end to Quickie Aircraft Corp? I was around back then. I have even heard that legal irritation played some kind of role in moving Rutan Aircraft Factory out of the homebuilt arena but that is probably speculation.

If you are ignorant of the engineering there are engineers who are not and you could engage one for a fee, do the testing then be the big gorilla in the Q spar world (like Thayer was trying to do). It's not a problem.

I'm not suggesting you are one of these guys, but after 35 times at Oshkosh keeping my ears open I have always found a class of humans who want somebody else to design something  for them FOR FREE and to their specs then hold their hand thru construction or installation. And then I have a friend who gets to yakking about a pet idea gets many other guys chasing their tails in free speech but has not yet bent metal, cut foam or mixed a cup of epoxy. Yas it's their free speech but using my free speech that's a big fat waste of energy in most cases. You can't accomplish anything by just yakking about your dreams. I agree it is fun to do however.... but not for everybody.

Spar-wise I DID consider the possibility of a different spar and I even decided how I would do it and test it but then I got 3 tubular spars from an abandoned kit. I don't blabber about it because I haven't cut foam yet.

There are at least 3 possible and doable alternate spar plans that have been considered and all of that I wrote up in back issues of QTALK. One,maybe 2 have been test flown by now. It's not likely anybody is going to hold your hand and show you exactly what to do.

j.



-----Original Message-----
From: 'Phillip J. Kocmoud' pkocmoud@... [Q-LIST]
To: Q-LIST
Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 8:14 pm
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

 
I agree with Mike. When I read this post, I thought, why not at least consider the possibility. That is, unless your legal system puts you in the far east, j.? Here in the US, I think we are still free for open discussion.
 
Phil
 
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:41 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
 
 
Not sure what I did to deserve that one.  I have heard it is very hard to sue the builder or pilot of an Experimental -- which doesn't mean the lawyers don't try.

I admit to my ignorance of the engineering involved in designing a replacement spar, but I'm still wondering. 

Mike
On 9/3/2014 3:49 PM, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 
Has anyone thought of designing a spar
Why don't you design one??? You seem not to have a concern for our legal system.
 
j.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Perry
dmperry1012@... [Q-LIST]
To: Q-LIST

Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
 
Has anyone thought of designing a spar that a home-builder could make for him/herself?  Perhaps an "I-beam" or box of carbon fiber?

Mike
On 9/3/2014 10:02 AM, Jon Matcho jmatcho@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 
I suggested looking at www.rockwestcomposites.com as a source for the LS1 carbon spar.  I have since spoken with Richard Kaczmarek of Fast Little Airplanes and found that he had attempted to do the same, but their cost to him was more than he is offering now.  My take is that the spars from Fast Little Airplanes meet or exceed the specifications of the original LS1 spar. 
 
These spars are available today, just browse to www.quickheads.com and click 'Kit Hardware'.
 
Jon Matcho
Former Cozy Mark IV builder

 
 

 
 


Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

Dave Covert <davecove@...>
 

I don't know anything short of serious tort reform that would stop the seeming obligatory litigation that follows every unfortunate event.

I am not working on a Q at this time, a CH-750 has my attention at the moment (I want to be able to take off from my own 10 acres). A Q-200 is next because I want to go fast. :)

Dave


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 9:23 PM, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

This "stream of commerce" concept is a valuable piece of information. I aint never heerd of it before. Hmmmmmm

Only one wee concern: I was involved in a nuisance suit and while it had no merit I STILL had to come up with some $$$ and some legal counsel to beat it off and those $$$'s could be used elsewhere.

Dave how far along are you with your project currentlY?

Note Jim Doyle's testing tips. This subject was thoroughly treated in QTALK back issues almost eons ago.

j.




-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Matcho jmatcho@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thu, Sep 4, 2014 4:22 pm
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

 
Dave Covert wrote: 
 
"My plan is to build an I beam and test it to destruction by centering it on a couple of saw horses and piling cement bags on the ends until it breaks. I can calculate the moments from that and if I am happy with the number, go with it. If not, build it stronger and try again."
 
I understand that is exactly how these things got done in the first place at RAF and QAC:  build it strong and light, and then break it.  My plan for an LS1 would be the same, but to look at prior Q2 attempts as well as the spar designs and layup schedules in plans for long canards (ex. Long-EZ and Defiant), and just make a best guess (different designs for the TriQ vs. conventional of course).  Build it.  Figure out the 1G weight at the center, and test to as many Gs as is necessary (4, 6, or more...), or to failure and calculate the Gs from there (failure would be the first sign/sound of anything breaking/popping, etc.).
 
Dave Covert wrote:
 
"Obviously you must warn a buyer of the nature of the spar to clear the other issue."
 
You should then warn the buyer about every single nut, bolt, screw, wood, epoxy, and layup put in the plane and whether layup #453 was set at 42 degrees instead of 45.  Selling an experimental homebuilt aircraft, or certified, should simply involve a blanket statement removing the seller from all liability, forcing the buyer to accept responsibility for their actions.  Unless you know something is outright wrong or dangerous, one would not be required to disclose such details.  However, as a buyer, I would certainly appreciate how you came up with your spar :-)
 
Actually, considering all the work required here and considering my conversation with Richard at Fast Little Airplanes, I personally would start saving for their spar.  Regardless, I completely support and would greatly appreciate someone else doing all this work for me as another option.  I would buy those plans for... $100 or more.
 
Jon Matcho
 

From: Q-LIST@... <Q-LIST@...> on behalf of Dave Covert davecove@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 10:05 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Digest Number 5243
 
 
"in fact,amateur built actually means amateur built. If you can make it better than the design,or the plans, do it."

That's what I was thinking...  there's a lot less 'experimental' in 'experimental aviation' than there used to be. I am interested in my own spar as well. My plan is to build an I beam and test it to destruction by centering it on a couple of saw horses and piling cement bags on the ends until it breaks. I can calculate the moments from that and if I am happy with the number, go with it. If not, build it stronger and try again.  (but first I have to finish my CH-750)

An amateur builder isn't held to the same liability standards as a commercial business. It has to do with the 'stream of commerce'. If your intention is to build airplanes and sell them, you are entering the 'stream of commerce' and are held to much higher standards of liability than a true amateur builder. A true amateur has two primary areas of liability exposure; negligence and failure to warn. Testing a self-designed spar to failure is not negligent; building one and saying 'that looks about right' is. Obviously you must warn a buyer of the nature of the spar to clear the other issue.

Dave





--
Thank you for your time,
ɘvɒⱭ


Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

JMasal@...
 

This "stream of commerce" concept is a valuable piece of information. I aint never heerd of it before. Hmmmmmm
Only one wee concern: I was involved in a nuisance suit and while it had no merit I STILL had to come up with some $$$ and some legal counsel to beat it off and those $$$'s could be used elsewhere.

Dave how far along are you with your project currentlY?

Note Jim Doyle's testing tips. This subject was thoroughly treated in QTALK back issues almost eons ago.

j.




-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Matcho jmatcho@... [Q-LIST]
To: Q-LIST
Sent: Thu, Sep 4, 2014 4:22 pm
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

 
Dave Covert wrote: 
 
"My plan is to build an I beam and test it to destruction by centering it on a couple of saw horses and piling cement bags on the ends until it breaks. I can calculate the moments from that and if I am happy with the number, go with it. If not, build it stronger and try again."
 
I understand that is exactly how these things got done in the first place at RAF and QAC:  build it strong and light, and then break it.  My plan for an LS1 would be the same, but to look at prior Q2 attempts as well as the spar designs and layup schedules in plans for long canards (ex. Long-EZ and Defiant), and just make a best guess (different designs for the TriQ vs. conventional of course).  Build it.  Figure out the 1G weight at the center, and test to as many Gs as is necessary (4, 6, or more...), or to failure and calculate the Gs from there (failure would be the first sign/sound of anything breaking/popping, etc.).
 
Dave Covert wrote:
 
"Obviously you must warn a buyer of the nature of the spar to clear the other issue."
 
You should then warn the buyer about every single nut, bolt, screw, wood, epoxy, and layup put in the plane and whether layup #453 was set at 42 degrees instead of 45.  Selling an experimental homebuilt aircraft, or certified, should simply involve a blanket statement removing the seller from all liability, forcing the buyer to accept responsibility for their actions.  Unless you know something is outright wrong or dangerous, one would not be required to disclose such details.  However, as a buyer, I would certainly appreciate how you came up with your spar :-)
 
Actually, considering all the work required here and considering my conversation with Richard at Fast Little Airplanes, I personally would start saving for their spar.  Regardless, I completely support and would greatly appreciate someone else doing all this work for me as another option.  I would buy those plans for... $100 or more.
 
Jon Matcho
 

From: Q-LIST@... <Q-LIST@...> on behalf of Dave Covert davecove@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 10:05 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Digest Number 5243
 
 
"in fact,amateur built actually means amateur built. If you can make it better than the design,or the plans, do it."

That's what I was thinking...  there's a lot less 'experimental' in 'experimental aviation' than there used to be. I am interested in my own spar as well. My plan is to build an I beam and test it to destruction by centering it on a couple of saw horses and piling cement bags on the ends until it breaks. I can calculate the moments from that and if I am happy with the number, go with it. If not, build it stronger and try again.  (but first I have to finish my CH-750)

An amateur builder isn't held to the same liability standards as a commercial business. It has to do with the 'stream of commerce'. If your intention is to build airplanes and sell them, you are entering the 'stream of commerce' and are held to much higher standards of liability than a true amateur builder. A true amateur has two primary areas of liability exposure; negligence and failure to warn. Testing a self-designed spar to failure is not negligent; building one and saying 'that looks about right' is. Obviously you must warn a buyer of the nature of the spar to clear the other issue.

Dave



Re: Digest Number 5243

Jim D
 

Back in the mid 80's my partner and I built a LS 1 canard with a carbon box spar It was flown three times and then due to the conversation about the handling on the ground and the almost forbidden differential braking at the time we converted to tri gear. I had 930 hours on the canard when it was sold most of which was on the tri gear. We load tested the canard to 7 Gs as I recall but we made a saddle to support the center section to prevent it from being crushed by the supports at the fuselage points. I had plans for the canard that were given to two or three people in the US and one in Canada. I no longer have the write up or the blue prints as I threw it all away a few years ago. My partner Larry Weishaar was a structural engineer and did most of the design calculations. Sadly Larry is gone now. All this is to say that if you know what you are doing and are careful with the construction it can be done! The emphasis is on the knowledge and construction.
Be careful out there.
Jim Doyle


On 9/4/2014 9:05 AM, Dave Covert davecove@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 
"in fact,amateur built actually means amateur built. If you can make it better than the design,or the plans, do it."

That's what I was thinking...  there's a lot less 'experimental' in 'experimental aviation' than there used to be. I am interested in my own spar as well. My plan is to build an I beam and test it to destruction by centering it on a couple of saw horses and piling cement bags on the ends until it breaks. I can calculate the moments from that and if I am happy with the number, go with it. If not, build it stronger and try again.  (but first I have to finish my CH-750)

An amateur builder isn't held to the same liability standards as a commercial business. It has to do with the 'stream of commerce'. If your intention is to build airplanes and sell them, you are entering the 'stream of commerce' and are held to much higher standards of liability than a true amateur builder. A true amateur has two primary areas of liability exposure; negligence and failure to warn. Testing a self-designed spar to failure is not negligent; building one and saying 'that looks about right' is. Obviously you must warn a buyer of the nature of the spar to clear the other issue.

Dave






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Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

Jon Matcho <jmatcho@...>
 

Dave Covert wrote: 

 

"My plan is to build an I beam and test it to destruction by centering it on a couple of saw horses and piling cement bags on the ends until it breaks. I can calculate the moments from that and if I am happy with the number, go with it. If not, build it stronger and try again."

 

I understand that is exactly how these things got done in the first place at RAF and QAC:  build it strong and light, and then break it.  My plan for an LS1 would be the same, but to look at prior Q2 attempts as well as the spar designs and layup schedules in plans for long canards (ex. Long-EZ and Defiant), and just make a best guess (different designs for the TriQ vs. conventional of course).  Build it.  Figure out the 1G weight at the center, and test to as many Gs as is necessary (4, 6, or more...), or to failure and calculate the Gs from there (failure would be the first sign/sound of anything breaking/popping, etc.).

 

Dave Covert wrote:

 

"Obviously you must warn a buyer of the nature of the spar to clear the other issue."

 

You should then warn the buyer about every single nut, bolt, screw, wood, epoxy, and layup put in the plane and whether layup #453 was set at 42 degrees instead of 45.  Selling an experimental homebuilt aircraft, or certified, should simply involve a blanket statement removing the seller from all liability, forcing the buyer to accept responsibility for their actions.  Unless you know something is outright wrong or dangerous, one would not be required to disclose such details.  However, as a buyer, I would certainly appreciate how you came up with your spar :-)

 

Actually, considering all the work required here and considering my conversation with Richard at Fast Little Airplanes, I personally would start saving for their spar.  Regardless, I completely support and would greatly appreciate someone else doing all this work for me as another option.  I would buy those plans for... $100 or more.

 

Jon Matcho

 


From: Q-LIST@... on behalf of Dave Covert davecove@... [Q-LIST]
Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 10:05 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Digest Number 5243
 
 

"in fact,amateur built actually means amateur built. If you can make it better than the design,or the plans, do it."

That's what I was thinking...  there's a lot less 'experimental' in 'experimental aviation' than there used to be. I am interested in my own spar as well. My plan is to build an I beam and test it to destruction by centering it on a couple of saw horses and piling cement bags on the ends until it breaks. I can calculate the moments from that and if I am happy with the number, go with it. If not, build it stronger and try again.  (but first I have to finish my CH-750)

An amateur builder isn't held to the same liability standards as a commercial business. It has to do with the 'stream of commerce'. If your intention is to build airplanes and sell them, you are entering the 'stream of commerce' and are held to much higher standards of liability than a true amateur builder. A true amateur has two primary areas of liability exposure; negligence and failure to warn. Testing a self-designed spar to failure is not negligent; building one and saying 'that looks about right' is. Obviously you must warn a buyer of the nature of the spar to clear the other issue.

Dave



Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

Mike Perry
 

Hello Jim:

I should have been more specific:  It is hard to WIN a suit involving experimental aircraft, but it isn't hard to file one.  Sometimes defending yourself costs so much you go out of business anyway -- that's what happened to QAC if I remember correctly (they won the appeal but went into bankruptcy anyway).  And you are correct -- those are risks that keep people from publishing the info I'm looking for.

The (former) editor of Q-Talk probably knows better than me, but I don't remember 3 spar plans in the back issues.  In fact I don't remember any suitable for a Q-2 or Q-200 (variants for the Tri-Q certainly were, and Alan Thayer's spar-less Q-1 canard). 

My own project is stalled by a canard problem -- the original builder did not assemble the canard (LS-1) per plans.  Thus my interest in a replacement spar.  The spar sweep is completely wrong, wheels 6 inches aft of proper location.  That's probably reparable, but if he didn't do that right, should I trust any of the rest of his work?  Hard Question.  I can buy a replacement spar from Fast Little Airplanes, ~ $3700 (and worth every penny) but it's hard when I'm not sure about the rest of the project.  I guess the "sweat equity" approach would be hard also. 

If you could point me at a spar design I could build and use in a Q-200 I would appreciate it.

Mike

On 9/3/2014 10:28 PM, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 

Mike, I dunno why you feel you took a hit for an innocent question (or why I should feel I took a hit for downplaying freedom of speech which I don't), I'm just answering your question. I think I have been involved in exp aviation longer than you and have seen much more than you have. Maybe not, But if it is hard to sue the builder or pilot what do you think brought an end to Quickie Aircraft Corp? I was around back then. I have even heard that legal irritation played some kind of role in moving Rutan Aircraft Factory out of the homebuilt arena but that is probably speculation.


If you are ignorant of the engineering there are engineers who are not and you could engage one for a fee, do the testing then be the big gorilla in the Q spar world (like Thayer was trying to do). It's not a problem.

I'm not suggesting you are one of these guys, but after 35 times at Oshkosh keeping my ears open I have always found a class of humans who want somebody else to design something  for them FOR FREE and to their specs then hold their hand thru construction or installation. And then I have a friend who gets to yakking about a pet idea gets many other guys chasing their tails in free speech but has not yet bent metal, cut foam or mixed a cup of epoxy. Yas it's their free speech but using my free speech that's a big fat waste of energy in most cases. You can't accomplish anything by just yakking about your dreams. I agree it is fun to do however.... but not for everybody.

Spar-wise I DID consider the possibility of a different spar and I even decided how I would do it and test it but then I got 3 tubular spars from an abandoned kit. I don't blabber about it because I haven't cut foam yet.

There are at least 3 possible and doable alternate spar plans that have been considered and all of that I wrote up in back issues of QTALK. One,maybe 2 have been test flown by now. It's not likely anybody is going to hold your hand and show you exactly what to do.

j.



-----Original Message-----
From: 'Phillip J. Kocmoud' pkocmoud@... [Q-LIST]
To: Q-LIST
Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 8:14 pm
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

 
I agree with Mike. When I read this post, I thought, why not at least consider the possibility. That is, unless your legal system puts you in the far east, j.? Here in the US, I think we are still free for open discussion.
 
Phil
 
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:41 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
 
 
Not sure what I did to deserve that one.  I have heard it is very hard to sue the builder or pilot of an Experimental -- which doesn't mean the lawyers don't try.

I admit to my ignorance of the engineering involved in designing a replacement spar, but I'm still wondering. 

Mike
On 9/3/2014 3:49 PM, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 
Has anyone thought of designing a spar
Why don't you design one??? You seem not to have a concern for our legal system.
 
j.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Perry
dmperry1012@... [Q-LIST]
To: Q-LIST

Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
 
Has anyone thought of designing a spar that a home-builder could make for him/herself?  Perhaps an "I-beam" or box of carbon fiber?

Mike
On 9/3/2014 10:02 AM, Jon Matcho jmatcho@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 
I suggested looking at www.rockwestcomposites.com as a source for the LS1 carbon spar.  I have since spoken with Richard Kaczmarek of Fast Little Airplanes and found that he had attempted to do the same, but their cost to him was more than he is offering now.  My take is that the spars from Fast Little Airplanes meet or exceed the specifications of the original LS1 spar. 
 
These spars are available today, just browse to www.quickheads.com and click 'Kit Hardware'.
 
Jon Matcho
Former Cozy Mark IV builder

 
 

 
 


Re: Digest Number 5243

Dave Covert <davecove@...>
 

"in fact,amateur built actually means amateur built. If you can make it better than the design,or the plans, do it."

That's what I was thinking...  there's a lot less 'experimental' in 'experimental aviation' than there used to be. I am interested in my own spar as well. My plan is to build an I beam and test it to destruction by centering it on a couple of saw horses and piling cement bags on the ends until it breaks. I can calculate the moments from that and if I am happy with the number, go with it. If not, build it stronger and try again.  (but first I have to finish my CH-750)

An amateur builder isn't held to the same liability standards as a commercial business. It has to do with the 'stream of commerce'. If your intention is to build airplanes and sell them, you are entering the 'stream of commerce' and are held to much higher standards of liability than a true amateur builder. A true amateur has two primary areas of liability exposure; negligence and failure to warn. Testing a self-designed spar to failure is not negligent; building one and saying 'that looks about right' is. Obviously you must warn a buyer of the nature of the spar to clear the other issue.

Dave



Re: Digest Number 5243

Don Castleberry <hdlbrgmn1@...>
 

I am building a kr2. Had to build my own spars, nobody from the faa has shown up at my place to tell me I am not supposed to do it, in fact,amateur built actually means amateur built. If you can make it better than the design,or the plans, do it.





------------------------------

On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 4:29 AM EDT Q-LIST@... wrote:



Discussion of Quickie type aircraft information Group
11
Messages
Digest #5243
1a
Re: Interesting Flying !!!
by
"larry baxter"
ssshvac
2a
Re: Interesting Flying !!!
by
"jay@..."
jay_scheevel
2b
Re: Interesting Flying !!!
by
"Charlie"
one1skydog
3a
Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
by
"Jon Matcho"
jmatcho
3b
Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
by
"Mike Perry"
perrydadof5
3c
Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
by
3d
Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
by
"Mike Perry"
perrydadof5
3e
Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
by
"Phillip J. Kocmoud"
philkocmoud
3f
Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
by
4a
Cloud Movie
by
"Mike Dwyer"
planedude_99
4b
Re: Cloud Movie
by
"jcrain2@..."
triq73703
Messages
1a
Re: Interesting Flying !!!
Wed Sep 3, 2014 5:59 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"larry baxter" ssshvac
I flew from St. Louis to Apple valley in 9.6 hours and about $1,300.00 in avgas with an hour stop in tucumcari New Mexico, a bit pricy but I love my presidential II Colemill 600 baron.
Larry Baxter
Q-vair in a holding pattern
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 2, 2014, at 8:43 PM, "Charlie oneskydog@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

Hey!

I agree that would be awesome.

I did flight planning for ORE at 5 gph 4051 sm direct 134 gal avgas round trip no problems.

To Kansas City, Mo 1839 sm 61.5 gal avgas.

Somewhat more affordable and I would not have to spend minimum of 4 days to get there and back.

Just Saying,

Charlie Johnson
OGD, Utah

Dragonfly N187CD apx 50 hr.

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 2, 2014, at 3:53 PM, "jnmarstall jnmarstall@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

Does anyone know anything about this fly-in? Seems like we should all go there next year. Awesome bit of flying






This took place at Lathrop , MO , a very small town just north of Kansas City , MO. Great air show!
http://vimeo.com/100670266

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2a
Re: Interesting Flying !!!
Wed Sep 3, 2014 6:10 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"jay@..." jay_scheevel
Hi Charlie,
Come on over and visit me. Only 20 gallons round trip, and its out and back the same day! Would love to see your bird (or is it an insect?).
Cheers,
Jay
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2b
Re: Interesting Flying !!!
Wed Sep 3, 2014 9:14 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"Charlie" one1skydog
Jay,
I would love to bring the plane over to see your project. I have a couple of issues that I have been trying to work through this past year.
It was not helpful that I was working in Alaska most of Aug and had to replace an unsafe deck on my house.
I worked on the plane last weekend, pulled the oil pan to replace the gasket. Major pain but I invented and made some mini jacks that allowed me to get clearance between the engine and engine mount. I was able to get the pan out so I can do a proper cleaning and prep for the new gasket.
The gear leg issue is still being worked but I am close to some engineering numbers that will drive the fix.
Regards,
Charlie
OGD, Ut
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 3, 2014, at 7:10 AM, "'jay@...' jay@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:



Hi Charlie,

Come on over and visit me. Only 20 gallons round trip, and its out and back the same day! Would love to see your bird (or is it an insect?).

Cheers,
Jay



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3a
Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
Wed Sep 3, 2014 10:02 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"Jon Matcho" jmatcho
I suggested looking at www.rockwestcomposites.com<http://www.rockwestcomposites.com> as a source for the LS1 carbon spar. I have since spoken with Richard Kaczmarek of Fast Little Airplanes and found that he had attempted to do the same, but their cost to him was more than he is offering now. My take is that the spars from Fast Little Airplanes meet or exceed the specifications of the original LS1 spar.
These spars are available today, just browse to www.quickheads.com<http://www.quickheads.com> and click 'Kit Hardware' .
Jon Matcho
Former Cozy Mark IV builder
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3b
Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
Wed Sep 3, 2014 12:25 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Mike Perry" perrydadof5
Has anyone thought of designing a spar that a home-builder could make
for him/herself? Perhaps an "I-beam" or box of carbon fiber?
Mike
On 9/3/2014 10:02 AM, Jon Matcho jmatcho@... [Q-LIST] wrote:

I suggested looking at www.rockwestcomposites.com
<http://www.rockwestcomposites.com> as a source for the LS1 carbon
spar. I have since spoken with Richard Kaczmarek of Fast Little
Airplanes and found that he had attempted to do the same, but their
cost to him was more than he is offering now. My take is that the
spars from Fast Little Airplanes meet or exceed the specifications of
the original LS1 spar.

These spars are available today, just browse to www.quickheads.com
<http://www.quickheads.com> and click 'Kit Hardware' .

Jon Matcho

Former Cozy Mark IV builder

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3c
Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
Wed Sep 3, 2014 3:49 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
Has anyone thought of designing a spar
Why don't you design one??? You seem not to have a concern for our legal system.
j.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Perry dmperry1012@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
Has anyone thought of designing a spar that a home-builder could make for him/herself? Perhaps an "I-beam" or box of carbon fiber?
Mike
On 9/3/2014 10:02 AM, Jon Matcho jmatcho@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
I suggested looking at www.rockwestcomposi tes.com as a source for the LS1 carbon spar. I have since spoken with Richard Kaczmarek of Fast Little Airplanes and found that he had attempted to do the same, but their cost to him was more than he is offering now. My take is that the spars from Fast Little Airplanes meet or exceed the specifications of the original LS1 spar.
These spars are available today, just browse to www.quickheads. com and click 'Kit Hardware' .
Jon Matcho
Former Cozy Mark IV builder
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3d
Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
Wed Sep 3, 2014 4:41 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Mike Perry" perrydadof5
Not sure what I did to deserve that one. I have heard it is very hard
to sue the builder or pilot of an Experimental -- which doesn't mean the
lawyers don't try.
I admit to my ignorance of the engineering involved in designing a
replacement spar, but I'm still wondering.
Mike
On 9/3/2014 3:49 PM, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] wrote:

Has anyone thought of designing a spar

Why don't you design one??? You seem not to have a concern for our
legal system.

j.


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Perry dmperry1012@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

Has anyone thought of designing a spar that a home-builder could make
for him/herself? Perhaps an "I-beam" or box of carbon fiber?

Mike

On 9/3/2014 10:02 AM, Jon Matcho jmatcho@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
I suggested looking at www.rockwestcomposites.com
<http://www.rockwestcomposites.com> as a source for the LS1 carbon
spar. I have since spoken with Richard Kaczmarek of Fast Little
Airplanes and found that he had attempted to do the same, but their
cost to him was more than he is offering now. My take is that the
spars from Fast Little Airplanes meet or exceed the specifications of
the original LS1 spar.
These spars are available today, just browse to www.quickheads.com
<http://www.quickheads.com> and click 'Kit Hardware' .
Jon Matcho
Former Cozy Mark IV builder




------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
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3e
Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
Wed Sep 3, 2014 6:14 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Phillip J. Kocmoud" philkocmoud
I agree with Mike. When I read this post, I thought, why not at least consider the possibility. That is, unless your legal system puts you in the far east, j.? Here in the US, I think we are still free for open discussion.
Phil
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:41 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
Not sure what I did to deserve that one. I have heard it is very hard to sue the builder or pilot of an Experimental -- which doesn't mean the lawyers don't try.
I admit to my ignorance of the engineering involved in designing a replacement spar, but I'm still wondering.
Mike
On 9/3/2014 3:49 PM, JMasal@...<mailto:JMasal@...> [Q-LIST] wrote:
Has anyone thought of designing a spar
Why don't you design one??? You seem not to have a concern for our legal system.
j.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Perry dmperry1012@...<mailto:dmperry1012@...> [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...><mailto:Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...><mailto:Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
Has anyone thought of designing a spar that a home-builder could make for him/herself? Perhaps an "I-beam" or box of carbon fiber?
Mike
On 9/3/2014 10:02 AM, Jon Matcho jmatcho@...<mailto:jmatcho@...> [Q-LIST] wrote:
I suggested looking at www.rockwestcomposites.com<http://www.rockwestcomposites.com> as a source for the LS1 carbon spar. I have since spoken with Richard Kaczmarek of Fast Little Airplanes and found that he had attempted to do the same, but their cost to him was more than he is offering now. My take is that the spars from Fast Little Airplanes meet or exceed the specifications of the original LS1 spar.
These spars are available today, just browse to www.quickheads.com<http://www.quickheads.com> and click 'Kit Hardware' .
Jon Matcho
Former Cozy Mark IV builder
____________ _________ _________ __
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3f
Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
Wed Sep 3, 2014 10:28 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
Mike, I dunno why you feel you took a hit for an innocent question (or why I should feel I took a hit for downplaying freedom of speech which I don't), I'm just answering your question. I think I have been involved in exp aviation longer than you and have seen much more than you have. Maybe not, But if it is hard to sue the builder or pilot what do you think brought an end to Quickie Aircraft Corp? I was around back then. I have even heard that legal irritation played some kind of role in moving Rutan Aircraft Factory out of the homebuilt arena but that is probably speculation.
If you are ignorant of the engineering there are engineers who are not and you could engage one for a fee, do the testing then be the big gorilla in the Q spar world (like Thayer was trying to do). It's not a problem.
I'm not suggesting you are one of these guys, but after 35 times at Oshkosh keeping my ears open I have always found a class of humans who want somebody else to design something for them FOR FREE and to their specs then hold their hand thru construction or installation. And then I have a friend who gets to yakking about a pet idea gets many other guys chasing their tails in free speech but has not yet bent metal, cut foam or mixed a cup of epoxy. Yas it's their free speech but using my free speech that's a big fat waste of energy in most cases. You can't accomplish anything by just yakking about your dreams. I agree it is fun to do however.... but not for everybody.
Spar-wise I DID consider the possibility of a different spar and I even decided how I would do it and test it but then I got 3 tubular spars from an abandoned kit. I don't blabber about it because I haven't cut foam yet.
There are at least 3 possible and doable alternate spar plans that have been considered and all of that I wrote up in back issues of QTALK. One,maybe 2 have been test flown by now. It's not likely anybody is going to hold your hand and show you exactly what to do.
j.
-----Original Message-----
From: 'Phillip J. Kocmoud' pkocmoud@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 8:14 pm
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
I agree with Mike. When I read this post, I thought, why not at least consider the possibility. That is, unless your legal system puts you in the far east, j.? Here in the US, I think we are still free for open discussion.
Phil
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:41 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
Not sure what I did to deserve that one. I have heard it is very hard to sue the builder or pilot of an Experimental -- which doesn't mean the lawyers don't try.
I admit to my ignorance of the engineering involved in designing a replacement spar, but I'm still wondering.
Mike
On 9/3/2014 3:49 PM, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
Has anyone thought of designing a spar
Why don't you design one??? You seem not to have a concern for our legal system.
j.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Perry dmperry1012@... [Q-LIST]<Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
Has anyone thought of designing a spar that a home-builder could make for him/herself? Perhaps an "I-beam" or box of carbon fiber?
Mike
On 9/3/2014 10:02 AM, Jon Matchojmatcho@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
I suggested looking atwww.rockwestcompo sites.com as a source for the LS1 carbon spar. I have since spoken with Richard Kaczmarek of Fast Little Airplanes and found that he had attempted to do the same, but their cost to him was more than he is offering now. My take is that the spars from Fast Little Airplanes meet or exceed the specifications of the original LS1 spar.
These spars are available today, just browse towww.quickheads. com and click 'Kit Hardware' .
Jon Matcho
Former Cozy Mark IV builder
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4a
Cloud Movie
Wed Sep 3, 2014 4:43 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"Mike Dwyer" planedude_99
I put a Cloud movie on YouTube, both 2D and 3D versions.
Check em out at
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLfVhmCxFkbRukDN_vuT9ag
Mike Q200 N3QP
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4b
Re: Cloud Movie
Wed Sep 3, 2014 7:16 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"jcrain2@..." triq73703
Absolutely beautiful! The music fit wonderfully well also!Thanks Mike!Bruce
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Mike Dwyer q2pilot@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...>
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
Subject: [Q-LIST] Cloud Movie
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 19:41:06 -0400
I put a Cloud movie on YouTube, both 2D and 3D versions.Check em out at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLfVhmCxFkbRukDN_vuT9ag Mike Q200 N3QP
__________________________________________________________
Want to place your ad here?
Advertise on United Online
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5407cb3bbd7394b3b1433st03vuc
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Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

Trevor Fernihough <spilligans@...>
 

Whew !

Trevor Fernihough
spilligans@...


On 4 Sep 2014, at 1:28 pm, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

 

Mike, I dunno why you feel you took a hit for an innocent question (or why I should feel I took a hit for downplaying freedom of speech which I don't), I'm just answering your question. I think I have been involved in exp aviation longer than you and have seen much more than you have. Maybe not, But if it is hard to sue the builder or pilot what do you think brought an end to Quickie Aircraft Corp? I was around back then. I have even heard that legal irritation played some kind of role in moving Rutan Aircraft Factory out of the homebuilt arena but that is probably speculation.


If you are ignorant of the engineering there are engineers who are not and you could engage one for a fee, do the testing then be the big gorilla in the Q spar world (like Thayer was trying to do). It's not a problem.

I'm not suggesting you are one of these guys, but after 35 times at Oshkosh keeping my ears open I have always found a class of humans who want somebody else to design something  for them FOR FREE and to their specs then hold their hand thru construction or installation. And then I have a friend who gets to yakking about a pet idea gets many other guys chasing their tails in free speech but has not yet bent metal, cut foam or mixed a cup of epoxy. Yas it's their free speech but using my free speech that's a big fat waste of energy in most cases. You can't accomplish anything by just yakking about your dreams. I agree it is fun to do however.... but not for everybody.

Spar-wise I DID consider the possibility of a different spar and I even decided how I would do it and test it but then I got 3 tubular spars from an abandoned kit. I don't blabber about it because I haven't cut foam yet.

There are at least 3 possible and doable alternate spar plans that have been considered and all of that I wrote up in back issues of QTALK. One,maybe 2 have been test flown by now. It's not likely anybody is going to hold your hand and show you exactly what to do.

j.



-----Original Message-----
From: 'Phillip J. Kocmoud' pkocmoud@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 8:14 pm
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

 
I agree with Mike. When I read this post, I thought, why not at least consider the possibility. That is, unless your legal system puts you in the far east, j.? Here in the US, I think we are still free for open discussion.
 
Phil
 
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:41 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
 
 
Not sure what I did to deserve that one.  I have heard it is very hard to sue the builder or pilot of an Experimental -- which doesn't mean the lawyers don't try.

I admit to my ignorance of the engineering involved in designing a replacement spar, but I'm still wondering. 

Mike
On 9/3/2014 3:49 PM, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 
Has anyone thought of designing a spar
Why don't you design one??? You seem not to have a concern for our legal system.
 
j.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Perry
dmperry1012@... [Q-LIST]
To: Q-LIST
<Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
 
Has anyone thought of designing a spar that a home-builder could make for him/herself?  Perhaps an "I-beam" or box of carbon fiber?

Mike
On 9/3/2014 10:02 AM, Jon Matcho jmatcho@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 
I suggested looking at www.rockwestcomposites.com as a source for the LS1 carbon spar.  I have since spoken with Richard Kaczmarek of Fast Little Airplanes and found that he had attempted to do the same, but their cost to him was more than he is offering now.  My take is that the spars from Fast Little Airplanes meet or exceed the specifications of the original LS1 spar. 
 
These spars are available today, just browse to www.quickheads.com and click 'Kit Hardware'.
 
Jon Matcho
Former Cozy Mark IV builder

 
 

 
 



Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

JMasal@...
 

Mike, I dunno why you feel you took a hit for an innocent question (or why I should feel I took a hit for downplaying freedom of speech which I don't), I'm just answering your question. I think I have been involved in exp aviation longer than you and have seen much more than you have. Maybe not, But if it is hard to sue the builder or pilot what do you think brought an end to Quickie Aircraft Corp? I was around back then. I have even heard that legal irritation played some kind of role in moving Rutan Aircraft Factory out of the homebuilt arena but that is probably speculation.

If you are ignorant of the engineering there are engineers who are not and you could engage one for a fee, do the testing then be the big gorilla in the Q spar world (like Thayer was trying to do). It's not a problem.

I'm not suggesting you are one of these guys, but after 35 times at Oshkosh keeping my ears open I have always found a class of humans who want somebody else to design something  for them FOR FREE and to their specs then hold their hand thru construction or installation. And then I have a friend who gets to yakking about a pet idea gets many other guys chasing their tails in free speech but has not yet bent metal, cut foam or mixed a cup of epoxy. Yas it's their free speech but using my free speech that's a big fat waste of energy in most cases. You can't accomplish anything by just yakking about your dreams. I agree it is fun to do however.... but not for everybody.

Spar-wise I DID consider the possibility of a different spar and I even decided how I would do it and test it but then I got 3 tubular spars from an abandoned kit. I don't blabber about it because I haven't cut foam yet.

There are at least 3 possible and doable alternate spar plans that have been considered and all of that I wrote up in back issues of QTALK. One,maybe 2 have been test flown by now. It's not likely anybody is going to hold your hand and show you exactly what to do.

j.



-----Original Message-----
From: 'Phillip J. Kocmoud' pkocmoud@... [Q-LIST]
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 8:14 pm
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

 
I agree with Mike. When I read this post, I thought, why not at least consider the possibility. That is, unless your legal system puts you in the far east, j.? Here in the US, I think we are still free for open discussion.
 
Phil
 
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:41 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
 
 
Not sure what I did to deserve that one.  I have heard it is very hard to sue the builder or pilot of an Experimental -- which doesn't mean the lawyers don't try.

I admit to my ignorance of the engineering involved in designing a replacement spar, but I'm still wondering. 

Mike
On 9/3/2014 3:49 PM, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 
Has anyone thought of designing a spar
Why don't you design one??? You seem not to have a concern for our legal system.
 
j.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Perry
dmperry1012@... [Q-LIST]
To: Q-LIST

Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?
 
Has anyone thought of designing a spar that a home-builder could make for him/herself?  Perhaps an "I-beam" or box of carbon fiber?

Mike
On 9/3/2014 10:02 AM, Jon Matcho jmatcho@... [Q-LIST] wrote:
 
I suggested looking at www.rockwestcomposites.com as a source for the LS1 carbon spar.  I have since spoken with Richard Kaczmarek of Fast Little Airplanes and found that he had attempted to do the same, but their cost to him was more than he is offering now.  My take is that the spars from Fast Little Airplanes meet or exceed the specifications of the original LS1 spar. 
 
These spars are available today, just browse to www.quickheads.com and click 'Kit Hardware'.
 
Jon Matcho
Former Cozy Mark IV builder

 
 

 
 


Re: Cloud Movie

Bruce Crain
 


Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

Phillip J. Kocmoud <pkocmoud@...>
 

I agree with Mike. When I read this post, I thought, why not at least consider the possibility. That is, unless your legal system puts you in the far east, j.? Here in the US, I think we are still free for open discussion.

 

Phil

 

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:41 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

 

 

Not sure what I did to deserve that one.  I have heard it is very hard to sue the builder or pilot of an Experimental -- which doesn't mean the lawyers don't try.

I admit to my ignorance of the engineering involved in designing a replacement spar, but I'm still wondering. 

Mike

On 9/3/2014 3:49 PM, JMasal@... [Q-LIST] wrote:

 

Has anyone thought of designing a spar

Why don't you design one??? You seem not to have a concern for our legal system.

 

j.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Perry
dmperry1012@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST
<Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Wed, Sep 3, 2014 2:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

 

Has anyone thought of designing a spar that a home-builder could make for him/herself?  Perhaps an "I-beam" or box of carbon fiber?

Mike

On 9/3/2014 10:02 AM, Jon Matcho jmatcho@... [Q-LIST] wrote:

 

I suggested looking at www.rockwestcomposites.com as a source for the LS1 carbon spar.  I have since spoken with Richard Kaczmarek of Fast Little Airplanes and found that he had attempted to do the same, but their cost to him was more than he is offering now.  My take is that the spars from Fast Little Airplanes meet or exceed the specifications of the original LS1 spar. 

 

These spars are available today, just browse to www.quickheads.com and click 'Kit Hardware'.

 

Jon Matcho

Former Cozy Mark IV builder


 

 


 

 


Re: Q2 LS1 Carbon spar?

Dave Covert <davecove@...>
 

"I have heard it is very hard to sue the builder or pilot of an Experimental -- which doesn't mean the lawyers don't try."

There's a nice article on that topic on page 62 of the October Kitplanes mag.  FYI...

Dave

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