Date   

Re: roll and pitch trim questions

Mike Dwyer
 

I'll take a shot at it for a Q200 tho... I bet he's using the info to size his servos.

On the Q-2 with LS-1 canard, what is the routine stick force required to get the plane to trim level in roll (for an off center loading condition, such as single pilot)? The roll force is very light.  To roll 10 degrees per second it is around 1/10 pound, to roll 40 degrees per second around 10 pounds.

What is the maximum stick force ever needed to hold full aileron deflection?  20 lbs???  Never tried it, scares me.

What is the routine stick force required to trim for level pitch?  At 70 mph, maybe 20 lbs.  at 200 mph a few ounces. 

What is the maximum pitch stick force to hold full deflection (assuming sparrow strainer is installed)?  At 70 mph, maybe 20 lbs.  At 200 mph, are you crazy!


Bottom line, if your only trying to size an autopilot servo, at cruise you only need a couple of oz servos.

Mike Q200 N3QP



On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 4:57 PM, jay@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

On the Q-2 with LS-1 canard, what is the routine stick force required to get the plane to trim level in roll (for an off center loading condition, such as single pilot)?

What is the maximum stick force ever needed to hold full aileron deflection?

What is the routine stick force required to trim for level pitch?

What is the maximum pitch stick force to hold full deflection (assuming sparrow strainer is installed)?

Thanks for your help on this.

Cheers,
Jay Scheevel, Tri-Q, still building




Re: Catto Props

Sam Hoskins
 

Good luck Jim & Sam.


On Mon, Sep 14, 2015, 6:08 PM logistics_engineering@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

Sam,

Sam Kittle and I have ranches very near Craig. My understanding is Craig, his uncle and his father lost everything. They are living in his Hamgar at Jackson.

As for me and Sam, the fire is very close and we are hoping the wind doesn't change directions. For now
it is blowing the fire up and across the mountain range behind San Andreas and Angles Camp.

Jim
N46JP


Re: Catto Props

Jim Patillo
 

Sam,

Sam Kittle and I have ranches very near Craig. My understanding is Craig, his uncle and his father lost everything. They are living in his Hamgar at Jackson.

As for me and Sam, the fire is very close and we are hoping the wind doesn't change directions. For now
it is blowing the fire up and across the mountain range behind San Andreas and Angles Camp.

Jim
N46JP


ASI listed on eBay

Patrick Panzera
 

I just listed a new Falcon ASI, 30-200 mph on eBay for one cent, no reserve.
$14.80 shipping to anywhere in the USA

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/331655133151?

Pat


Re: roll and pitch trim questions

Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@...>
 

You've got to be kidding. 



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "jay@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...>
Date: 09/14/2015 4:57 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] roll and pitch trim questions

 

On the Q-2 with LS-1 canard, what is the routine stick force required to get the plane to trim level in roll (for an off center loading condition, such as single pilot)?

What is the maximum stick force ever needed to hold full aileron deflection?

What is the routine stick force required to trim for level pitch?

What is the maximum pitch stick force to hold full deflection (assuming sparrow strainer is installed)?

Thanks for your help on this.

Cheers,
Jay Scheevel, Tri-Q, still building



roll and pitch trim questions

Jay Scheevel
 

On the Q-2 with LS-1 canard, what is the routine stick force required to get the plane to trim level in roll (for an off center loading condition, such as single pilot)?

What is the maximum stick force ever needed to hold full aileron deflection?

What is the routine stick force required to trim for level pitch?

What is the maximum pitch stick force to hold full deflection (assuming sparrow strainer is installed)?

Thanks for your help on this.

Cheers,
Jay Scheevel, Tri-Q, still building



Catto Props

Sam Hoskins
 

Word has come that prop maker Craig Catto has lost his home and two shops in California's Butte fire. Craig and his family are ok and have taken up residence in a couple of TBs at the airport. I understand his manufacturing facility is undamaged.

This news comes through the Vans online forums.

Sam

Sent via wireless gizmo.


Re: my electric rudder trim

Jay Scheevel
 

Just remembered, Gary asked about the slide and rail on the rudder trim. It is anodized aluminum rail and slide with a teflon lining on the slide. Very smooth and low friction.

Cheers,
Jay Scheevel, Tri-Q, still building


Re: Recommended Epoxy System?

One Sky Dog
 

Larry,

I am not sure who the #1 in the U.S. is but EZ-Poxy has been around a long time. I bought my first kit in 1979 as Safe-T-Poxy. The formula has been sold at least 2 times and it was renamed EZ - Poxy by the current owner because it is the epoxy Burt specified for his designs. I have talked with the formulator and know the principle people in the company.

Other than that it is irresponsible to blurt out hearsay "facts" without being able to back it up with documentation. Or just start with "Well I heard that...." and we will know how credible what follows will be. Do you not understand people get killed with mis information?

Regards,

Charlie Johnson
Ogden, Utah


On Sep 13, 2015, at 3:50 PM, 'Larry Severson' larry2@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

That is not what I learned at the #1 composite school in the U.S., according to Composites Magazine, but maybe the info has changed in the past 3 years.

 

Larry Severson

18242 Peters Ct

Fountain Valley, CA  92708

(714) 968-9852

 

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2015 10:16 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: Recommended Epoxy System?

 

 

Larry,

 

Wrong 155 is the room temp cure Tg and 196 F is the post cure Tg. I just looked it up watch for the data sheet as a separate e-mail to the list.

 

Please source your information about EZ Poxy.

 

Regards,

 

Charlie Johnson

Ogden Utah



On Aug 31, 2015, at 7:33 AM, 'Larry Severson' larry2@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

One error listed the Tg (delinking temp) of EZ Poxy as being 155 degrees. That is the ultimate Tg, not the initial Tg which is less than 40 degrees above the temperature at which the epoxy cured. Post curing raises the Tg faster than time, which takes months of exposure to elevated temps. That is why white paint is used. It only raises the underlying epoxy 10 degrees in sunlight.

 

Larry Severson

18242 Peters Ct

Fountain Valley, CA  92708

(714) 968-9852

 

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 9:20 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: Recommended Epoxy System?

 

 

Thanks guys for all the info on Epoxy's, very helpful.

Cheers,
Jay Scheevel

 


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Re: Recommended Epoxy System?

Larry Severson
 

That is not what I learned at the #1 composite school in the U.S., according to Composites Magazine, but maybe the info has changed in the past 3 years.

 

Larry Severson

18242 Peters Ct

Fountain Valley, CA  92708

(714) 968-9852

 

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2015 10:16 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: Recommended Epoxy System?

 

 

Larry,

 

Wrong 155 is the room temp cure Tg and 196 F is the post cure Tg. I just looked it up watch for the data sheet as a separate e-mail to the list.

 

Please source your information about EZ Poxy.

 

Regards,

 

Charlie Johnson

Ogden Utah



On Aug 31, 2015, at 7:33 AM, 'Larry Severson' larry2@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

One error listed the Tg (delinking temp) of EZ Poxy as being 155 degrees. That is the ultimate Tg, not the initial Tg which is less than 40 degrees above the temperature at which the epoxy cured. Post curing raises the Tg faster than time, which takes months of exposure to elevated temps. That is why white paint is used. It only raises the underlying epoxy 10 degrees in sunlight.

 

Larry Severson

18242 Peters Ct

Fountain Valley, CA  92708

(714) 968-9852

 

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 9:20 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: Recommended Epoxy System?

 

 

Thanks guys for all the info on Epoxy's, very helpful.

Cheers,
Jay Scheevel

 


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Re: my electric rudder trim

Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@...>
 

I copied Mike Dwyer electric aileron trim. Simple, easy to install and works great. Jerry



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "jay@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...>
Date: 09/13/2015 12:18 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: my electric rudder trim

 

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all of your comments. I appreciate the feedback. Gary and Mike, I am constructing the roll trim now. I think you will like it. It is also electric. Pitch trim will be good old fashioned manual trim wheel, located on the left side. Left hand will control throttle, mixture, reflexor and pitch trim. rudder trim will be on the panel, and I think I will find a way to put the electric trim controller on the stick, but I have not gotten that far along yet. I am leaving space for eventually installing autopilot servos, but will wait for the sticker shock of avionics to subside before putting those in. Also need to keep distractions to a minimum for the flight testing period.

Cheers,
Jay Scheevel, Tri-Q, still building


Re: Recommended Epoxy System?

Rick Hole
 

In 1985 Scott would have been using Safety-poxy.  I will see him at work tomorrow and will ask him.

Rick Hole

 

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2015 12:37 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: Recommended Epoxy System?

 

 

Thanks guys for the lively discussion on epoxies. I am learning a lot.

Thanks to Charlie for posting the E-Z poxy data. My plane is essentially complete and 95% of it is E-Z Poxy or Safe-T-Poxy. All of the layups were room temperature cured. Wing and canard were the first things I built and have 30+ years of post-cure time with temps that often exceeded 90-100F in the garage or storage. I remember from my old dynamics of materials training that time and temperature are capable of accomplishing the chemical kinetics, but I think the temp is exponentially more effective. Maybe someone with beaucoup experience with that could expand on that point. I did not post-cure the canard or wing other than storing them. They were always supported and blocked to maintain the original geometry. My canard has the carbon spar and bears no weight when on the ground because I have the Tri-Q geometry, so later distortion should not be significant, unless it is very hot when I take off. I am not sure what epoxy was used to build the main gear hoop (Scott Swing built in 1985), but maybe someone knows. It may be west system judging from the color. I am sure there must have been a major exotherm with something that thick, so maybe it was effectively thermally post-cured just with the exotherm. Any thoughts on that?

Cheers,

Jay Scheevel, Tri-Q, still building


Re: Recommended Epoxy System?

One Sky Dog
 

Jay,

To calibrate what hot is a140 F object will cause a first degree burn in 3 seconds of contact. Our airplanes are not getting that hot. Your structure is fine if you mixed the epoxy right.

Exothermic reactions during landing gear cure will do nothing but bad stuff to the structure. Is the color change in just the thick parts? Epoxy will char instead of melt.

Charlie Johnson
Ogden, Utah


On Sep 13, 2015, at 6:37 AM, jay@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

Thanks guys for the lively discussion on epoxies. I am learning a lot.

Thanks to Charlie for posting the E-Z poxy data. My plane is essentially complete and 95% of it is E-Z Poxy or Safe-T-Poxy. All of the layups were room temperature cured. Wing and canard were the first things I built and have 30+ years of post-cure time with temps that often exceeded 90-100F in the garage or storage. I remember from my old dynamics of materials training that time and temperature are capable of accomplishing the chemical kinetics, but I think the temp is exponentially more effective. Maybe someone with beaucoup experience with that could expand on that point. I did not post-cure the canard or wing other than storing them. They were always supported and blocked to maintain the original geometry. My canard has the carbon spar and bears no weight when on the ground because I have the Tri-Q geometry, so later distortion should not be significant, unless it is very hot when I take off. I am not sure what epoxy was used to build the main gear hoop (Scott Swing built in 1985), but maybe someone knows. It may be west system judging from the color. I am sure there must have been a major exotherm with something that thick, so maybe it was effectively thermally post-cured just with the exotherm. Any thoughts on that?

Cheers,

Jay Scheevel, Tri-Q, still building


Re: Recommended Epoxy System?

Jay Scheevel
 

Thanks guys for the lively discussion on epoxies. I am learning a lot.

Thanks to Charlie for posting the E-Z poxy data. My plane is essentially complete and 95% of it is E-Z Poxy or Safe-T-Poxy. All of the layups were room temperature cured. Wing and canard were the first things I built and have 30+ years of post-cure time with temps that often exceeded 90-100F in the garage or storage. I remember from my old dynamics of materials training that time and temperature are capable of accomplishing the chemical kinetics, but I think the temp is exponentially more effective. Maybe someone with beaucoup experience with that could expand on that point. I did not post-cure the canard or wing other than storing them. They were always supported and blocked to maintain the original geometry. My canard has the carbon spar and bears no weight when on the ground because I have the Tri-Q geometry, so later distortion should not be significant, unless it is very hot when I take off. I am not sure what epoxy was used to build the main gear hoop (Scott Swing built in 1985), but maybe someone knows. It may be west system judging from the color. I am sure there must have been a major exotherm with something that thick, so maybe it was effectively thermally post-cured just with the exotherm. Any thoughts on that?

Cheers,

Jay Scheevel, Tri-Q, still building


Re: my electric rudder trim

Jay Scheevel
 

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all of your comments. I appreciate the feedback. Gary and Mike, I am constructing the roll trim now. I think you will like it. It is also electric. Pitch trim will be good old fashioned manual trim wheel, located on the left side. Left hand will control throttle, mixture, reflexor and pitch trim. rudder trim will be on the panel, and I think I will find a way to put the electric trim controller on the stick, but I have not gotten that far along yet. I am leaving space for eventually installing autopilot servos, but will wait for the sticker shock of avionics to subside before putting those in. Also need to keep distractions to a minimum for the flight testing period.

Cheers,
Jay Scheevel, Tri-Q, still building


Re: Recommended Epoxy System?

One Sky Dog
 

Larry,

Wrong 155 is the room temp cure Tg and 196 F is the post cure Tg. I just looked it up watch for the data sheet as a separate e-mail to the list.

Please source your information about EZ Poxy.

Regards,

Charlie Johnson
Ogden Utah


On Aug 31, 2015, at 7:33 AM, 'Larry Severson' larry2@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

One error listed the Tg (delinking temp) of EZ Poxy as being 155 degrees. That is the ultimate Tg, not the initial Tg which is less than 40 degrees above the temperature at which the epoxy cured. Post curing raises the Tg faster than time, which takes months of exposure to elevated temps. That is why white paint is used. It only raises the underlying epoxy 10 degrees in sunlight.

 

Larry Severson

18242 Peters Ct

Fountain Valley, CA  92708

(714) 968-9852

 

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 9:20 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: Recommended Epoxy System?

 

 

Thanks guys for all the info on Epoxy's, very helpful.

Cheers,
Jay Scheevel




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EZ10_83_84_87_properties

One Sky Dog
 


Re: my electric rudder trim

britmcman99
 

Would probably be more like a steerable nose wheel put a clutch slip ring mounted gear plate onto the caster that can be turned by a motor or a hydraulic steering rod gizmo. How heavy do we want to make this thing?


On Sep 11, 2015, at 12:23 PM, 'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

 

Great idea Phil!  I have thought about putting a trim tab on the trailing edge of the nose gear but it is a tough engineering problem.  Getting a servo in the wheel pant is hard to figure plus the shock and vibration might be a detriment to it.  Plus the friction that has to be overcome would be fairly significant.
Bruce


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Phil Lankford britmcman@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...>
To: "Q-LIST@..." <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: my electric rudder trim
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:55:18 -0700

 

Sounds like triQ rudder trim is attempting to correct for dirty air caused by a variation in nose wheel drag (nose wheel as an unintended yaw variator). Put some reins on that nose wheel why don't you?
 
Phil Lankford


On Sep 11, 2015, at 9:18 AM, 'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

 

 

TriQ's are different than tail dragger Q's with respect to rudder trim.  You can add stationery trim to a tail dragger and it will work fine once you get it dialed in. 
The TriQ nose gear may not position itself in the same spot every time on take off.  At least my TrQ works that way.  So with that in mind the rudder trim is always different for every flight.  With an adjustable rudder trim you can trim out the differences in yaw for all flights.  The difference is varies quite a bit and I could never take my feet off the rudder pedals with the TriQ.  Now I can adjust the rudder trim and roll trim and fly hands off for awhile.  The rudder trim also takes the load off of the auto pilot so the servo is not working quite such heavy loads.  It should be easier on the servo over the years.
Bruce "2 Plane Crain"  (Nick name my son Jake issued to me)


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Gary McKirdy gary.mckirdy21@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...>
To: "Q-LIST@..." <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: my electric rudder trim
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 16:57:37 +0100

 

 

Jay,

Having the rudder pedal assembly removable is a real bonus as working on an installed set is very tiresome. Just make sure it is well attached. I have a permanent ankle bone injury from a Eurahopydoper (Europa) engine failure when the pedal cross members came lose and subjected my foot to too high a vertical G load on impact with a hedge!

The taildragger Q will respond to rudder input in cruise sufficiently well to make the Q completely contollable with rudder alone in normal upright flight in case you ever lost aileron control.

I have to admit that was a total revelation on a tail dragger with an-hedral and di-hedral with the anhedral wing doing 2/3rds of the task. If anything common sence would dictate that the reverse would be the case.

The only explanation I could come up with is the lift blanking effect of yaw rules.

So congratulatons, you had a rudder system already capable of doubling up the normal aileron function and you don't have an-hedral either so it should be a good mod but who am I to say?

Keep posting and inviting comments and you will be OK :-)

Gary McKirdy

5000+ total hours split between gliders and mainly Q variants and still alive!



On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:12 PM, quickieaircraft@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

Jay,

 
This is a neat assembly.
 
If my aircraft is any indication, I'd agree with Mike in that the rudder authority in cruise is more than adequate and my trim needs have been resolved by resting a toe on a pedal.  With that said, bleeding the brakes is a bit of a pain and I'm sure there are a lot of days where we the rest of us wish we could remove them like your assembly allows.  I wonder what your elevator and aileron trim will look like!
 
Does the slider have a Delrin or teflon structural lubricant, or is aluminum slider on aluminum track sufficient for these purposes?  
 
-if
 
 
tri-q200 15hrs
 
 

 

 


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Re: my electric rudder trim

Bruce Crain
 


Re: my electric rudder trim

Gary McKirdy
 

Sorry, do dirty air, no uncommanded contol swings on the ground or in the air!

The nearest I cmae to crashing a Q was in a taildragger Q235,
Loads of grunt and a huge lead mass atached as far aft as possible.
In the bespoke tail wheel fairing!

Rudder flutter had me doing the stick dance on the ailerons low level and I was still nearly a gonner despite 1000hrs Q time at that point.

Rudder power is great, it gets you out of trouble if the sh!t hits the fan just make sure the rudder is driven by your feet ;-)

Gary Mckirdy

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 7:55 PM, Phil Lankford britmcman@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

Sounds like triQ rudder trim is attempting to correct for dirty air caused by a variation in nose wheel drag (nose wheel as an unintended yaw variator). Put some reins on that nose wheel why don't you?

Phil Lankford


On Sep 11, 2015, at 9:18 AM, 'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

 

TriQ's are different than tail dragger Q's with respect to rudder trim.  You can add stationery trim to a tail dragger and it will work fine once you get it dialed in. 
The TriQ nose gear may not position itself in the same spot every time on take off.  At least my TrQ works that way.  So with that in mind the rudder trim is always different for every flight.  With an adjustable rudder trim you can trim out the differences in yaw for all flights.  The difference is varies quite a bit and I could never take my feet off the rudder pedals with the TriQ.  Now I can adjust the rudder trim and roll trim and fly hands off for awhile.  The rudder trim also takes the load off of the auto pilot so the servo is not working quite such heavy loads.  It should be easier on the servo over the years.
Bruce "2 Plane Crain"  (Nick name my son Jake issued to me)


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Gary McKirdy gary.mckirdy21@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...>
To: "Q-LIST@..." <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: my electric rudder trim
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2015 16:57:37 +0100

 

Jay,

Having the rudder pedal assembly removable is a real bonus as working on an installed set is very tiresome. Just make sure it is well attached. I have a permanent ankle bone injury from a Eurahopydoper (Europa) engine failure when the pedal cross members came lose and subjected my foot to too high a vertical G load on impact with a hedge!

The taildragger Q will respond to rudder input in cruise sufficiently well to make the Q completely contollable with rudder alone in normal upright flight in case you ever lost aileron control.

I have to admit that was a total revelation on a tail dragger with an-hedral and di-hedral with the anhedral wing doing 2/3rds of the task. If anything common sence would dictate that the reverse would be the case.

The only explanation I could come up with is the lift blanking effect of yaw rules.

So congratulatons, you had a rudder system already capable of doubling up the normal aileron function and you don't have an-hedral either so it should be a good mod but who am I to say?

Keep posting and inviting comments and you will be OK :-)

Gary McKirdy

5000+ total hours split between gliders and mainly Q variants and still alive!



On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:12 PM, quickieaircraft@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

Jay,

 
This is a neat assembly.
 
If my aircraft is any indication, I'd agree with Mike in that the rudder authority in cruise is more than adequate and my trim needs have been resolved by resting a toe on a pedal.  With that said, bleeding the brakes is a bit of a pain and I'm sure there are a lot of days where we the rest of us wish we could remove them like your assembly allows.  I wonder what your elevator and aileron trim will look like!
 
Does the slider have a Delrin or teflon structural lubricant, or is aluminum slider on aluminum track sufficient for these purposes?  
 
-if
 
 
tri-q200 15hrs
 
 

 

 


____________________________________________________________
No Branches = Great Rates
High Yield CDs Savings Accounts. 24/7 helpful customer service.
allybank.com


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