Date   

Re: Climb performance N8WQ [2 Attachments]

Chris Walterson
 

I realize they are a different beast, but I uploaded a video to you tube showing a Dragonfly stall with VGs. May be of interest to someone. "dragonfly stall" will get you there--------------- Chris


Re: Trip report: 49 states in the books . . . +1 for me

 

Hi, Matthew, thanks for letting me try your on at Oshkosh. Also talking Q200 with me too. I’d would be great to see your info about Alaska too
Thanks

Mike Neidenthal


Re: Climb performance N8WQ [2 Attachments]

ryan goodman
 

Jay, really appreciate all the work you've done building data and sharing it with us all. Can you remind me what your setup is for the aircraft and powerplant? If I recall Q2, tip gear, GU canard...can't recall your engine or 
Propeller specs.

Ryan, TriQ restoring, Colorado Springs


On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 12:55, 'Jay Scheevel SGT' jay@... [Q-LIST]
wrote:
 

Hi Guys,

 

After gathering quite a bit of inflight performance data on N8WQ (still in phase 1 testing), I have compiled most of the climb performance data. Trying to stay at a fairly constant density altitude, also keeping pressure altitude fairly constant. The air temperature this time of year mean that a comfortable MSL testing altitude of ~6000’ is at a DA around 8800’, so these data reflect that flying environment. Holding my GW around 1050 pounds for these tests.

 

I am happy to see that the climb data is confirming the relatively unconventional L/D profile that I got from my numerical modeling effort a few years ago. When I say unconventional, I mean that the highest L/D ratios occur very close to the lowest end of the stable airspeed range. The model chart shows L/D for level flight at a given airspeed. My flight data is measuring climb angle/rate as a function of airspeed at full power, not exactly the same thing, but close.

 

I have yet to gather climb data below about 78 mph IAS (and that was at 10000’ DA, so is not on this chart). I will get into the mid-70’s, but my pitch-buck occurs at around 70, so I approach that speed cautiously, when at full power.  Here is what I have so far.

 

Cheers,

Jay  Tri-Q2 N8WQ, 37 hours.


Climb performance N8WQ

Jay Scheevel
 

Hi Guys,

 

After gathering quite a bit of inflight performance data on N8WQ (still in phase 1 testing), I have compiled most of the climb performance data. Trying to stay at a fairly constant density altitude, also keeping pressure altitude fairly constant. The air temperature this time of year mean that a comfortable MSL testing altitude of ~6000’ is at a DA around 8800’, so these data reflect that flying environment. Holding my GW around 1050 pounds for these tests.

 

I am happy to see that the climb data is confirming the relatively unconventional L/D profile that I got from my numerical modeling effort a few years ago. When I say unconventional, I mean that the highest L/D ratios occur very close to the lowest end of the stable airspeed range. The model chart shows L/D for level flight at a given airspeed. My flight data is measuring climb angle/rate as a function of airspeed at full power, not exactly the same thing, but close.

 

I have yet to gather climb data below about 78 mph IAS (and that was at 10000’ DA, so is not on this chart). I will get into the mid-70’s, but my pitch-buck occurs at around 70, so I approach that speed cautiously, when at full power.  Here is what I have so far.

 

Cheers,

Jay  Tri-Q2 N8WQ, 37 hours.


Re: Brake Bleed Methods

ΕΔΔΥ . <overlordmustafa@...>
 

There is another method that you can do by yourself.  After you get the system nice and clean, run a tube from the bleeder nipple to the reservoir.  Keep pumping to your hearts content.  You'll never run out as you're circulating the fluid.  If you're worried about contaminants add a filter in the loop.  A paper paint strainer or even an inline fuel filter.

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 2:32 PM 'Jay Scheevel SGT' jay@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

I generally come up with a strategy to do everything as a single person. Comes from 10+ years of living by myself. So here’s my story.

 

Plan A. I put a jar of brake fluid and a clear tube from the bleeder into it, (tube full of fluid), then opened the bleeder. Then I have a little 12 V vacuum pump that I hooked up to the fill fitting in the top of the master cylinder. I thought: air bubbles move easier uphill and vacuum will just make it even better. Guess what? I was wrong. Did not work. Brake never got solid.

 

So….

 

Plan B. Used the little oil can trick and a flexible hose attached to the fill fitting on the top of the master. Opened the bleeder at the bottom of the caliper with the bleeder hose still in the jar. Pumped the master several strokes (refilling with oil can as needed). Closed the bleeder and the brake was rock solid. Caveat. My brake lines, excluding the small flexible sections on either end, are 1/8” OD stainless tubing, and my brake system is on a Tri-Q so shorter lines (maybe 7 feet total length). So moving a bubble through the entire length does not require much volume to be pumped from the master when compared to the plans-built nylaflo tubing on a taildragger.

 

This proves again that for my plane anyway, plan B is always better than plan A.

 

Cheers,

Jay N8WQ

 

From: Q-LIST@... <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 8:12 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Brake Bleed Methods

 

 

I have had the most like just going to home depot and buying a little tube that will fit snugly over the bleeder. Run that up a foot or two and then into a cup than crack the bleeder and go. You can bleed by yourself and you see when all of the air is out. Just pump slowly and hold a little bit at the end of each stroke before releasing to let the bubbles rise a little bit in the line. It's by far the simplest way to bleed if you ask me. 

 

I have a pressure bottle for reverse bleeding but for some reason it always seems to en-train tiny bubbles of air in the fluid that coalesces in the break lines. 

 


From: Q-LIST@... <Q-LIST@...> on behalf of Corbin Geiser c_geiser@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 9:26 AM
To: Q-LIST@... <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Brake Bleed Methods

 

 

Thanks Richard.  I think I will try this method again today.  I would love to get a fitting like Jerry and connect to the reservoir to collect overflow.  Maybe I can determine that size today and get it done.

 

Corbin Ge!ser


On August 16, 2019 at 8:16 AM, "fastlittleairplanes@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

 

We use one of those old timey hand pump oil cans and attach it to the bleeder at the caliper. By back filling the system it only takes one person to do it and will push out any air in the system. If your holding tank is full you will need to pull fluid out so not to make a mess on the back fill. We learned this method after fighting for 2 days to get a dual toe brakes PA28-140 system to work. Does work will all normal GA brake systems do make sure the park brake is not on.

Richard


Alaska

 

Hi,
I heard someone here did a Alaska trip. Is there any way getting the story about that?
Thanks
Mike Neidenthal


Re: Brake Bleed Methods

Jay Scheevel
 

I generally come up with a strategy to do everything as a single person. Comes from 10+ years of living by myself. So here’s my story.

 

Plan A. I put a jar of brake fluid and a clear tube from the bleeder into it, (tube full of fluid), then opened the bleeder. Then I have a little 12 V vacuum pump that I hooked up to the fill fitting in the top of the master cylinder. I thought: air bubbles move easier uphill and vacuum will just make it even better. Guess what? I was wrong. Did not work. Brake never got solid.

 

So….

 

Plan B. Used the little oil can trick and a flexible hose attached to the fill fitting on the top of the master. Opened the bleeder at the bottom of the caliper with the bleeder hose still in the jar. Pumped the master several strokes (refilling with oil can as needed). Closed the bleeder and the brake was rock solid. Caveat. My brake lines, excluding the small flexible sections on either end, are 1/8” OD stainless tubing, and my brake system is on a Tri-Q so shorter lines (maybe 7 feet total length). So moving a bubble through the entire length does not require much volume to be pumped from the master when compared to the plans-built nylaflo tubing on a taildragger.

 

This proves again that for my plane anyway, plan B is always better than plan A.

 

Cheers,

Jay N8WQ

 

From: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 8:12 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Brake Bleed Methods

 

 

I have had the most like just going to home depot and buying a little tube that will fit snugly over the bleeder. Run that up a foot or two and then into a cup than crack the bleeder and go. You can bleed by yourself and you see when all of the air is out. Just pump slowly and hold a little bit at the end of each stroke before releasing to let the bubbles rise a little bit in the line. It's by far the simplest way to bleed if you ask me. 

 

I have a pressure bottle for reverse bleeding but for some reason it always seems to en-train tiny bubbles of air in the fluid that coalesces in the break lines. 

 


From: Q-LIST@... <Q-LIST@...> on behalf of Corbin Geiser c_geiser@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 9:26 AM
To: Q-LIST@... <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Brake Bleed Methods

 

 

Thanks Richard.  I think I will try this method again today.  I would love to get a fitting like Jerry and connect to the reservoir to collect overflow.  Maybe I can determine that size today and get it done.

 

Corbin Ge!ser


On August 16, 2019 at 8:16 AM, "fastlittleairplanes@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

 

We use one of those old timey hand pump oil cans and attach it to the bleeder at the caliper. By back filling the system it only takes one person to do it and will push out any air in the system. If your holding tank is full you will need to pull fluid out so not to make a mess on the back fill. We learned this method after fighting for 2 days to get a dual toe brakes PA28-140 system to work. Does work will all normal GA brake systems do make sure the park brake is not on.

Richard


Re: Brake Bleed Methods

ΕΔΔΥ . <overlordmustafa@...>
 

I'll suggest a method of a 2 person which I use on everything.

Open the bleeder nipple and simply place your finger over the end and have the person pump furiously (make sure you don't run out of fluid).  Your finger acts like a flapper valve preventing any air from sucking back in.  You can move large volumes of brake fluid this way.

An airplane mechanic suggested to me to use a syringe from the caliper portion to remove any stubborn bubbles.

Finally...Is the bleeder nipple on top?  I've worked on brakes to where they were on the bottom (brakes were reversed...but some how still worked)


On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 7:11 AM Corbin Geiser c_geiser@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

Chasing some air in my brake lines.  I tried a vacuum pump system but I don't think I could get a could seal from the pump itself.  Then I tried pushing fluid using the oil can method; through the upper bleeder valve.  I am going to try that again today but was curious what methods others are using for a "one person" bleed method.

If I have to get a helper to press on the pedals then I will but wanted to figure out a good one person method to use.

Corbin Ge!ser


Re: Brake Bleed Methods

Matthew Curcio
 

I have had the most like just going to home depot and buying a little tube that will fit snugly over the bleeder. Run that up a foot or two and then into a cup than crack the bleeder and go. You can bleed by yourself and you see when all of the air is out. Just pump slowly and hold a little bit at the end of each stroke before releasing to let the bubbles rise a little bit in the line. It's by far the simplest way to bleed if you ask me. 

I have a pressure bottle for reverse bleeding but for some reason it always seems to en-train tiny bubbles of air in the fluid that coalesces in the break lines. 


From: Q-LIST@... on behalf of Corbin Geiser c_geiser@... [Q-LIST]
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 9:26 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Brake Bleed Methods
 
 

Thanks Richard.  I think I will try this method again today.  I would love to get a fitting like Jerry and connect to the reservoir to collect overflow.  Maybe I can determine that size today and get it done.

Corbin Ge!ser

On August 16, 2019 at 8:16 AM, "fastlittleairplanes@... [Q-LIST]" wrote:

 

We use one of those old timey hand pump oil cans and attach it to the bleeder at the caliper. By back filling the system it only takes one person to do it and will push out any air in the system. If your holding tank is full you will need to pull fluid out so not to make a mess on the back fill. We learned this method after fighting for 2 days to get a dual toe brakes PA28-140 system to work. Does work will all normal GA brake systems do make sure the park brake is not on.

Richard


Re: Brake Bleed Methods

Mike Dwyer
 

If your brake system uses the red stuff... Use MIL-PRF-83282 Fluid.  It has a higher flashpoint than the normal red stuff.  The automotive red hydraulic fluid flashes into fire at quite a low temp.

On my Q200 it's a bitch to get the last little air out.  I've pumped from the caliper and also from the master.  Seems there is always a bit of air in there.  But weirdly enough after some time, the air goes away.  I don't get it but am not going to worry about why!

I like Sams filler for the master but I use this for pumping from the caliper.

Fly Safe,
Mike N3QP Q200


Re: Brake Bleed Methods

Gary McKirdy
 

For airheart brakes on taildaggers be sure to lift the tail first to get the air bleed hole at 12 o' clock.

Took me lots of frustrating failed attempts before I discovered that.

Gary McKirdy

On Fri, 16 Aug 2019, 14:26 Corbin Geiser c_geiser@... [Q-LIST], <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

Thanks Richard.  I think I will try this method again today.  I would love to get a fitting like Jerry and connect to the reservoir to collect overflow.  Maybe I can determine that size today and get it done.

Corbin Ge!ser

On August 16, 2019 at 8:16 AM, "fastlittleairplanes@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

 

We use one of those old timey hand pump oil cans and attach it to the bleeder at the caliper. By back filling the system it only takes one person to do it and will push out any air in the system. If your holding tank is full you will need to pull fluid out so not to make a mess on the back fill. We learned this method after fighting for 2 days to get a dual toe brakes PA28-140 system to work. Does work will all normal GA brake systems do make sure the park brake is not on.

Richard


Re: Brake Bleed Methods

Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@...>
 

Corbin,
To make the fitting I just drilled a small hole in the screw that came with the master cylinder and epoxied a 1/2" of aluminum tubing to it to slide the plastic tubing over. Jerry

-------- Original message --------
From: "Corbin Geiser c_geiser@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...>
Date: 8/16/19 9:26 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Brake Bleed Methods

 

Thanks Richard.  I think I will try this method again today.  I would love to get a fitting like Jerry and connect to the reservoir to collect overflow.  Maybe I can determine that size today and get it done.

Corbin Ge!ser

On August 16, 2019 at 8:16 AM, "fastlittleairplanes@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:

 

We use one of those old timey hand pump oil cans and attach it to the bleeder at the caliper. By back filling the system it only takes one person to do it and will push out any air in the system. If your holding tank is full you will need to pull fluid out so not to make a mess on the back fill. We learned this method after fighting for 2 days to get a dual toe brakes PA28-140 system to work. Does work will all normal GA brake systems do make sure the park brake is not on.

Richard


Re: Brake Bleed Methods

Corbin
 

Thanks Richard.  I think I will try this method again today.  I would love to get a fitting like Jerry and connect to the reservoir to collect overflow.  Maybe I can determine that size today and get it done.

Corbin Ge!ser

On August 16, 2019 at 8:16 AM, "fastlittleairplanes@... [Q-LIST]" wrote:

 

We use one of those old timey hand pump oil cans and attach it to the bleeder at the caliper. By back filling the system it only takes one person to do it and will push out any air in the system. If your holding tank is full you will need to pull fluid out so not to make a mess on the back fill. We learned this method after fighting for 2 days to get a dual toe brakes PA28-140 system to work. Does work will all normal GA brake systems do make sure the park brake is not on.

Richard


Re: Brake Bleed Methods

Richard Kaczmarek 3RD
 

We use one of those old timey hand pump oil cans and attach it to the bleeder at the caliper. By back filling the system it only takes one person to do it and will push out any air in the system. If your holding tank is full you will need to pull fluid out so not to make a mess on the back fill. We learned this method after fighting for 2 days to get a dual toe brakes PA28-140 system to work. Does work will all normal GA brake systems do make sure the park brake is not on.

Richard


Re: Brake Bleed Methods

Sam Hoskins
 

I usually use a helper to pull on the brake while I man the bleed fitting. 

Also, a bottle like this makes filling a lot easier.
ACM Economy Wash Bottle, LDPE, Squeeze Bottle Medical Label Tattoo (250ml / 8oz / 1 Bottle) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WTHLR18/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_i_tpQvDbVDWJ4SA

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 7:32 AM 'Jerry Marstall' jnmarstall@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

I have Matco breaks and have a terrible time bleeding them.  Since the bleed port fitting at the caliper is not directly below where the brake line attaches, there is an air pocket that sometimes forms.  I have to remove the caliper unit from the wheel,  letting it hang by the brake line. I vertically align the bleed port with the brake line attachment. This allows the air bubble to exit out of the top of the caliper housing.  Then pump the fluid in from the bottom with an oil can.

 

In the cockpit I made a fitting that screws into the vent hole at the top of the master cylinder and attached a clear plastic tube that runs into an empty water bottle to catch the fluid as it runs over the top.  This allows me to watch the fluid as it comes out of the master cylinder to detect the exiting air bubbles.  A one-person operation that works every time.

Jerry

 

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 8:12 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Brake Bleed Methods

 

 

Chasing some air in my brake lines.  I tried a vacuum pump system but I don't think I could get a could seal from the pump itself.  Then I tried pushing fluid using the oil can method; through the upper bleeder valve.  I am going to try that again today but was curious what methods others are using for a "one person" bleed method.

 

If I have to get a helper to press on the pedals then I will but wanted to figure out a good one person method to use.

 

Corbin Ge!ser


Re: Brake Bleed Methods

Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@...>
 

I have Matco breaks and have a terrible time bleeding them.  Since the bleed port fitting at the caliper is not directly below where the brake line attaches, there is an air pocket that sometimes forms.  I have to remove the caliper unit from the wheel,  letting it hang by the brake line. I vertically align the bleed port with the brake line attachment. This allows the air bubble to exit out of the top of the caliper housing.  Then pump the fluid in from the bottom with an oil can.

 

In the cockpit I made a fitting that screws into the vent hole at the top of the master cylinder and attached a clear plastic tube that runs into an empty water bottle to catch the fluid as it runs over the top.  This allows me to watch the fluid as it comes out of the master cylinder to detect the exiting air bubbles.  A one-person operation that works every time.

Jerry

 

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 8:12 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Brake Bleed Methods

 

 

Chasing some air in my brake lines.  I tried a vacuum pump system but I don't think I could get a could seal from the pump itself.  Then I tried pushing fluid using the oil can method; through the upper bleeder valve.  I am going to try that again today but was curious what methods others are using for a "one person" bleed method.

 

If I have to get a helper to press on the pedals then I will but wanted to figure out a good one person method to use.

 

Corbin Ge!ser


Brake Bleed Methods

Corbin
 

Chasing some air in my brake lines.  I tried a vacuum pump system but I don't think I could get a could seal from the pump itself.  Then I tried pushing fluid using the oil can method; through the upper bleeder valve.  I am going to try that again today but was curious what methods others are using for a "one person" bleed method.

If I have to get a helper to press on the pedals then I will but wanted to figure out a good one person method to use.

Corbin Ge!ser


Re: Firewall Material

Terry Crouch
 

My Quickie and Cozy both have fiberfax and stainless. Use aluminum for a template.

Terry Crouch


-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Curcio mlcurcio89@... [Q-LIST]
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Tue, Aug 13, 2019 12:02 pm
Subject: [Q-LIST] Firewall Material

 
Curious what you all have done for a firewall. My Q2 had some kind of fireproof fabric bonded to the firewall with no aluminum sheeting or anything over that. There was originally paint but that has long since flaked off. The net result is a sheet of fireproof fabric coated in oil. I yanked it all off and did a test burn on a piece. Just as I suspected the  fibers didn't burn but acted as a fantastic wick for all of the oil which burned nicely and would have sustained a nice hot flame long enough to get the wood on the firewall burning. That stuff is bad news if you ask me. 

I'm doing a  bunch of engine work so time to replace. My plan was to use a sheet of .016" SS and spend the time to make templates and shape it in and around the mag box. I like the idea of stainless because I don't want any insulating material that can get oil soaked over time. The SS is, practically speaking, the most effective firewall material and will insulate to some degree against heat rather than conduct like aluminum will. It does come at a cost of weight. Thoughts? What have you done?


Re: Firewall Material

Dave Dugas
 

Matthew

I used fiberfax which was the name of the material supplied in the original kit. It was very delicate to work with and the plans called for aluminum sheet to protect it.

Dave D

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Matthew Curcio mlcurcio89@... [Q-LIST]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 1:02 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Firewall Material

 

 

Curious what you all have done for a firewall. My Q2 had some kind of fireproof fabric bonded to the firewall with no aluminum sheeting or anything over that. There was originally paint but that has long since flaked off. The net result is a sheet of fireproof fabric coated in oil. I yanked it all off and did a test burn on a piece. Just as I suspected the  fibers didn't burn but acted as a fantastic wick for all of the oil which burned nicely and would have sustained a nice hot flame long enough to get the wood on the firewall burning. That stuff is bad news if you ask me. 

 

I'm doing a  bunch of engine work so time to replace. My plan was to use a sheet of .016" SS and spend the time to make templates and shape it in and around the mag box. I like the idea of stainless because I don't want any insulating material that can get oil soaked over time. The SS is, practically speaking, the most effective firewall material and will insulate to some degree against heat rather than conduct like aluminum will. It does come at a cost of weight. Thoughts? What have you done?

 


Re: Firewall Material

Bruce Crain
 

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