Date   

Re: Foam blocks

 

Rob, 
I referred to some of the other guys with successful airfoils using DOW brand blue 2lb density XPS Foam. My understanding so far is its a suitable replacement. I started this foam search a few weeks ago by calling Steve at Eureka CNC. Oddly enough lives just a few blocks away from my born and raised home. But I digress, he said the DOW brand is the same as the old orange, just a different dye. Rather than rely on one source I've turned to here for information as well. Reports so far are favorable, as long as I don't get confused with the white crap. I was very specific to this pipe insulation company out of Tulsa. They specialize in cutting this insulation for industrial pipe insulation purposes. I personally figured if they could cut a beautiful circle, they could "add a taper or love" I believe they use hotwire methods. Hopefully CNC at least. But further more they do this everyday. They must be far more practiced than I with cutting foam regardless of exact method. I'm trying to reduce mistakes and therefore workload long term. If I can get the right job done with the best people, (probably not me for this). It'll make a beautiful strong and safe airplane I'd be proud to show and fly. 


Re: Foam blocks

 

Vern, 

I would love to spend an afternoon if possible picking your brain. I just live in Bartlesville so ot wouldn't kill me. Lmao but you might get tired of me.

Cody


Re: Foam blocks

smeshno1@...
 

 You bring up a great point here, Rob. John Mansfield also produces the XPS foam products. Sources are absolutely important in our requirements.  It is also true the original orange foams probably are inferior in several respects, but they remain the "known" base for structural testing done some years ago. I have extra orange low density.. definitely enough for a "half canard" from the QAC plans. They were hot wire cut rather in a typical way. Not what I would like to use for wing or canard. 

 What suggestion would others here make to do a current R&D and perhaps bring this study to FOD?  The need is there for those having to start with partial or compromised aircraft. Actually, such information is viable to the entire EAA builders involved in Rutan construction methods. The canard is the structure to verify primarily, from there we can easily extrapolate the Wing, ect...

 I propose to take the test articles in stages to failure. Stages also include reflex test on the way to final. Something I have a personal wish to learn also is to define negative G load limits as well. Anyone read the recent Kitplanes article about the extreme limits in turbulence two experienced pilots endured? That information in the article is much something we all can learn from. 

Vern   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 12:03 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Foam blocks
 
That's not what I meant. I remember reading here (on this list) that
the mechanical properties of the XPS foam of similar densities * but
of different manufacturers * were not the same, and that some brands
were not suitable for homebuilt aircraft.

Why this warning stuck in my mind is because I (then) started
thinking on how to 'qualify' an XPS foam for an aircraft. I remember
thinking about doing ASTM-style material testing. But at the same
time the original foam was no longer available, and what had been
stored was (say) 20+ years old and possibly degraded. So there would
be no solid reference values.

Around 10 days ago I posted this link, of a PDF report that shows
really interesting information for an unspecified XPS foam:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/132311786.pdf

The material is highly anisotropic, with very different Young's
modulus values in different directions. Much more then I ever thought
possible. And it's the Young's modulus value of the foam (together
with the shear modulus value of the foam) that determines how much
the core stabilizes the skin against buckling.

Rob



At 16:06 28 10 2020, you wrote:
>Its the blue extruded foam. Not the EPS beadboard.
>







Re: Foam blocks

smeshno1@...
 

 I would agree.. I used CATIA V5 and V6 at my Contract jobs in the factories to generate CAD. Sometimes in the M.E. world we would have to "one off" or such for AOG or a short run of part for rejections. Depending on the company the CAM programs varied. Triumph was primitive to be sure but for instance at Boeing and Nordam now Gulfsteam NTR) both were up to date. I grew to prefer Autodesk Pro due to the fact it integrates very smoothly with almost all CAM systems. I have purposely let my subscription expire. Since I am an official geezer now I have done my best to extract any possible tech useful in aircraft factory life. Had enough of Certificateds.. happy to stay in LSA and Experimental Aviation now.    

 Keep your foam pedigree for your sign off paperwork. My Q "kit" has a log of everything since day one including the original invoices back to Henderson Nevada where my kit was from. I purchased the partial kit at the feet of the Sphinx (Luxor parking lot in Vegas that is!!). It's interesting reading and at signoff having those records available will make the day. 

 Let us know if they do abrasive wire CNC of your billets. It would be a boon to the list and others in search of foam work after you. Guys on the list....keep in mind that Tulsa is a strategic center location for all but Alaska and the Islands within the States. Shipping therefore is attractive. Anyone going to Enid  2021 I can assist in free delivery from Tulsa to FOD in Enid. I own a 14" flatbed trailer and a Dodge 1/2 ton so plenty of room. It would save a 3 hour drive round trip from the West into "T" town. 

Vern   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Cody <cody.craig1985@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 4:53 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Foam blocks
 
Well, hopefully their ME wouldnt need to do much translating. I purchased the autocad file from Jon Matcho, just trying to get access to it. I figured if he already did the work of setting up a car with placement on the billets then they should be able to load it easily into their G-code processor. 


Re: Q2 rudder bellcrank

Brian Larick
 

Check pics of Sam Hoskins install.  I believe it was him that accomplished the same goal with a far simpler solution.

Brian

On Oct 29, 2020, at 08:43, Nick Wright <nwright27@...> wrote:

Does anyone have any schematics for the rudder bellcrank mod? I've seen the pictures of it installed, but I need further help.


Q2 rudder bellcrank

Nick Wright
 

Does anyone have any schematics for the rudder bellcrank mod? I've seen the pictures of it installed, but I need further help.


Re: Autopilot

Dave Dugas
 

Ryan
I ended up using this, rewiring it to my application. I learned quite a lot during the experience, trying different modules, breakout boards, power supplies, etc. This works with my Avare and TruTrak setup, so when I have a flight plan entered on my Samsung Galaxy tablet and select navigate on my autopilot it tracks the course. Works perfectly.
Dave D


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 11:19 PM, ryan goodman via groups.io
<elboy0712@...> wrote:
Hey Dave. I have not done this but I am a cyber engineer with a system of systems engineering background. I'm not sure where you're located but I would be happy to help you figure this out. PM me and let's see if we can solve the issue and then share with the group.
       Ryan


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 9:12 PM, Dave Dugas via groups.io
<davedq2@...> wrote:
I meant Trio autopilot


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 11:10 PM, Dave Dugas via groups.io
<davedq2@...> wrote:
My TruTrak autopilot required serial data input not TTL data, so I had to find a TTL to serial data converter. It's an older autopilot, so I'm not sure if all are the same. I got it working on mine and on a Trip autopilot using Avare.
Dave D


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 8:33 PM, Adam Radloff
<aeradloff@...> wrote:
Thanks for responding Mike.
I just ordered one to try, it looks like has the same "daughter" board as the HC-05 for the Bluetooth link. I'll update if it will talk to the AV-30'S.
Adam


Re: 2020 vendors

David J. Gall
 

Cody,

Ask for Dow Styrofoam XPS PIB at your local industrial insulation supplier. Or call your local taxidermist and ask where he gets his foam. I got nine foot long FB blocks that were 10”x20” from a local insulation supplier several years ago. YMMV. http://www.polyguardproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/XPS-Data.pdf

Do not laminate or assemble smaller blocks in order to make a block that meets your needs. The others on here are correct: it will result in structural deficiency and likely death. The foam is not “just” in compression as erroneously believed by some; it acts as a very thick shear web (made of very weak material, hence the need for its thickness) between the spar caps. If there’s a glue joint in that shear web, various factors conspire to promote eventual delamination along that glue line leading to structural failure of the wing.

David J. Gall
BSAE


Re: Reflexor and autopilot

ryan goodman
 

Can you elaborate please?


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 9:31 PM, Bruce Crain
<jcrain2@...> wrote:
To much friction.
B


On Oct 28, 2020, at 10:03 PM, ryan goodman via groups.io <elboy0712@...> wrote:

Just curious. Has anyone ever tried to incorporate reflexor control into their autopilot? Had a little debate about this at the shop today.
        Ryan





Re: Reflexor and autopilot

Bruce Crain
 

To much friction.
B


On Oct 28, 2020, at 10:03 PM, ryan goodman via groups.io <elboy0712@...> wrote:

Just curious. Has anyone ever tried to incorporate reflexor control into their autopilot? Had a little debate about this at the shop today.
        Ryan




Re: Autopilot

ryan goodman
 

Hey Dave. I have not done this but I am a cyber engineer with a system of systems engineering background. I'm not sure where you're located but I would be happy to help you figure this out. PM me and let's see if we can solve the issue and then share with the group.
       Ryan


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 9:12 PM, Dave Dugas via groups.io
<davedq2@...> wrote:
I meant Trio autopilot


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 11:10 PM, Dave Dugas via groups.io
<davedq2@...> wrote:
My TruTrak autopilot required serial data input not TTL data, so I had to find a TTL to serial data converter. It's an older autopilot, so I'm not sure if all are the same. I got it working on mine and on a Trip autopilot using Avare.
Dave D


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 8:33 PM, Adam Radloff
<aeradloff@...> wrote:
Thanks for responding Mike.
I just ordered one to try, it looks like has the same "daughter" board as the HC-05 for the Bluetooth link. I'll update if it will talk to the AV-30'S.
Adam


Re: Autopilot

Dave Dugas
 

I meant Trio autopilot


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 11:10 PM, Dave Dugas via groups.io
<davedq2@...> wrote:
My TruTrak autopilot required serial data input not TTL data, so I had to find a TTL to serial data converter. It's an older autopilot, so I'm not sure if all are the same. I got it working on mine and on a Trip autopilot using Avare.
Dave D


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 8:33 PM, Adam Radloff
<aeradloff@...> wrote:
Thanks for responding Mike.
I just ordered one to try, it looks like has the same "daughter" board as the HC-05 for the Bluetooth link. I'll update if it will talk to the AV-30'S.
Adam


Re: Autopilot

Dave Dugas
 

My TruTrak autopilot required serial data input not TTL data, so I had to find a TTL to serial data converter. It's an older autopilot, so I'm not sure if all are the same. I got it working on mine and on a Trip autopilot using Avare.
Dave D


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 8:33 PM, Adam Radloff
<aeradloff@...> wrote:
Thanks for responding Mike.
I just ordered one to try, it looks like has the same "daughter" board as the HC-05 for the Bluetooth link. I'll update if it will talk to the AV-30'S.
Adam


Reflexor and autopilot

ryan goodman
 

Just curious. Has anyone ever tried to incorporate reflexor control into their autopilot? Had a little debate about this at the shop today.
        Ryan


Re: Autopilot

Adam Radloff
 

Thanks for responding Mike.
I just ordered one to try, it looks like has the same "daughter" board as the HC-05 for the Bluetooth link. I'll update if it will talk to the AV-30'S.
Adam


Re: Foam blocks

 

Well, hopefully their ME wouldnt need to do much translating. I purchased the autocad file from Jon Matcho, just trying to get access to it. I figured if he already did the work of setting up a car with placement on the billets then they should be able to load it easily into their G-code processor. 


Re: Autopilot

Mike Dwyer
 

The HC-05 is not the right device.  A BC04 is, but there are very few of them on eBay these days.  This thing takes the bluetooth output from AVARE and converts it to a serial output that other devices use.  I messed with one for a while and had it working in my application.
Others have made this thing work!

Mike Dwyer

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:42 AM Adam Radloff <aeradloff@...> wrote:
Dave, did you ever get this figured out? I tried it using a HC-05 but no luck also. I just want output Nmea date from Avare to my AV-30's.
Let me know, 
Thanks


Re: Foam blocks

smeshno1@...
 

 If they use CNC abrasive wire cut then the finished bonding surface will be superior in accuracy to what you likely would obtain using hot wire methods on larger core work. Saving some slight amount of weight, but more important is the muscle work and days of time spent obtaining the final laminar profile prior to painting. Hot wire cut takes practice and is prone to cut frustrations.  

 If all the pieces are in place at the company, provide the full size cut template patterns and if they have an M.E. that is worth their salt that person can translate them into the CAD/CAM programing. After the cuts be sure to keep your excess billet block for later use, Cody. 

 They will make the perfect tool surfaces for post curing the Wing and Canard you'll be doing this coming Summer.     

Vern  


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Cody <cody.craig1985@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 10:06 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Foam blocks
 
Its the blue extruded foam. Not the EPS beadboard. 


Re: Foam blocks

Rob de Bie
 

That's not what I meant. I remember reading here (on this list) that the mechanical properties of the XPS foam of similar densities * but of different manufacturers * were not the same, and that some brands were not suitable for homebuilt aircraft.

Why this warning stuck in my mind is because I (then) started thinking on how to 'qualify' an XPS foam for an aircraft. I remember thinking about doing ASTM-style material testing. But at the same time the original foam was no longer available, and what had been stored was (say) 20+ years old and possibly degraded. So there would be no solid reference values.

Around 10 days ago I posted this link, of a PDF report that shows really interesting information for an unspecified XPS foam:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/132311786.pdf

The material is highly anisotropic, with very different Young's modulus values in different directions. Much more then I ever thought possible. And it's the Young's modulus value of the foam (together with the shear modulus value of the foam) that determines how much the core stabilizes the skin against buckling.

Rob

At 16:06 28 10 2020, you wrote:
Its the blue extruded foam. Not the EPS beadboard.


Re: Foam blocks

 

Its the blue extruded foam. Not the EPS beadboard. 

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