Date   

Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin
 

Follow up to keep records of information learned.  

Klaus' best guess is that we just need to rock the prop a bit faster.  He believes we have everything else correct.  We will try that tonight and, if no luck, might just let the starter give it a go in order to see if it can get a spark from the coil.  Leads are not connected, of course.

--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin
 

Thanks, everyone. 

I will answer the questions and some thoughts in this reply and then again as more come in. 

Yes, it is a Hall sensor.  Looks as though most are thinking like us and that it is something with the magnet sensor alignment/distance so we will check that first.

It is also possible we didn't rock the prop fast enough at #1 TDC....very likely as well.

We will test pins 1 and 9 again...just in case we counted wrong.

Good idea on passing a magnet over it and good to not to connect a VOM.   Thanks!!


As always, appreciate everyone's quick input!

--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Bruce McCormack
 

Continuity testing a Hall device with a VOM will destroy it instantly. Just in case you were considering it.
O’scope is the way to go.


On 9Nov, 2020, at 11:32, Rick Hole <r.hole@...> wrote:

I’ve seen this in Velocity installations.  Granted I have been retired for 4 years so I may be a voice from the past.
 
Be sure the ignition computer box is getting power and ground (I would measure it at the box connector).  The ignition input must be un-grounded or the ignition in the L, R, or Both.  When grounded the ignition system is deactivated.  (you may have this connection wrong, try it both ways, open and shorted to ground).
 
CAUTION Turning the props could start the engine 
You may want to remove the spark plugs from all cylinders.
 
The alignment of the magnet to the sensor is critical.  Turning the prop slowly may not give sufficient pulse to trigger the spark.
 
You could monitor the sensor with an oscilloscope and observe that the pulses are being generated.
 
Rick Hole
 
From: main@Q-List.groups.io [mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io] On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 10:13 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils
 
As we wait for Klaus to get back with us, I thought I would throw it out to this group.  As many know, I am installing a Lightspeed Plasma III electronic ignition system in my Q200.  Following the instructions, we have followed the steps and got to the point where we are rotating the prop to get the spark from the coils.  No spark so we are troubleshooting as best we can including reviewing the instructions for any missed steps.

Power from the battery to the circuit breakers is good and the signal coming back to the warning lights is good (if one coil fails a light comes on,  etc.).  However, we are not registering any power getting to the coils and have triple checked the wiring is connected to the ignition boxes going to the coils.

Could it be that the magnet sensor is not sending a signal back to the ignition boxes therefore no spark?  We wonder if there is a bad connection in one of the magnet sensors.  The other area I  thought it could be is that we are bypassing the keyed ignition for now.  My avionics guy assured me that it is not an area of concern since the way it is currently wired, it is not an open-loop (key in off position).  I still wonder though...

If anyone has any known common failure points please let me know.  We may try and go back out to the hangar this evening.

-- 

Corbin 
N33QR 



Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Rick Hole
 

It is a hall sensor.  I once replaced one which was sheared off by the magnet.

 

Rick Hole

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io [mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 11:06 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

 

A hall sensor measures presence of a magnetic field (or not). A simple magnetic sensor (coil) will see a “double” peak as the magnet passes. Not sure which type of sensor Klaus is using, but I suspect it is a hall sensor.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2020 9:51 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

 

I just went through the same issue on my Cozy installation. Everything checked out but still no sparks. Eventually traced it to the mini-sensor not being correctly aligned to the trigger ring. Aligned both in distance from and vertical to it.

 

Question; can you get a spark by passing a magnet (South Pole) over the mini sensor?

 

 

Bill Allen

 

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 at 17:33, Martin Skiby <mskiby@...> wrote:

That usually is a sign that the sensor is not picking up the trigger on the crank.  Check the spacing etc.  I have installed several of these in the past with 0 issues so it is probably something simple.

-----------------------------------------

From: "Corbin via groups.io"
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Monday November 9 2020 8:12:44AM
Subject: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

As we wait for Klaus to get back with us, I thought I would throw it out to this group.  As many know, I am installing a Lightspeed Plasma III electronic ignition system in my Q200.  Following the instructions, we have followed the steps and got to the point where we are rotating the prop to get the spark from the coils.  No spark so we are troubleshooting as best we can including reviewing the instructions for any missed steps.

Power from the battery to the circuit breakers is good and the signal coming back to the warning lights is good (if one coil fails a light comes on,  etc.).  However, we are not registering any power getting to the coils and have triple checked the wiring is connected to the ignition boxes going to the coils.

Could it be that the magnet sensor is not sending a signal back to the ignition boxes therefore no spark?  We wonder if there is a bad connection in one of the magnet sensors.  The other area I  thought it could be is that we are bypassing the keyed ignition for now.  My avionics guy assured me that it is not an area of concern since the way it is currently wired, it is not an open-loop (key in off position).  I still wonder though...

If anyone has any known common failure points please let me know.  We may try and go back out to the hangar this evening.

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--


Re: Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

Rick Hole
 

As you are planning inboard land gear, the strength required at the tip of the canard is much reduced.  With the gear at the ends of the canard I would not touch a repaired spar under any circumstances.  There might be wiggle room in your configuration.  I am not qualified to address that.

 

Rick Hole

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io [mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io] On Behalf Of Cody
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 9:38 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

https://youtu.be/aJkFnhqKkJw

Would this be a decent guide to potentially repairing the spar? At this point repairing can serve several purposes without risk. If its strong and works yay! If it doesn't work or I fail, then its good practice and we continue on with other options anyways. I don't feel like I have a lot to lose right now in playing with the option. Although my primary time and focus will be dressing out the fuselage, followed by the main wing. The canard can probably wait till near the end since its under consideration.


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Rick Hole
 

I’ve seen this in Velocity installations.  Granted I have been retired for 4 years so I may be a voice from the past.

 

Be sure the ignition computer box is getting power and ground (I would measure it at the box connector).  The ignition input must be un-grounded or the ignition in the L, R, or Both.  When grounded the ignition system is deactivated.  (you may have this connection wrong, try it both ways, open and shorted to ground).

 

CAUTION Turning the props could start the engine

You may want to remove the spark plugs from all cylinders.

 

The alignment of the magnet to the sensor is critical.  Turning the prop slowly may not give sufficient pulse to trigger the spark.

 

You could monitor the sensor with an oscilloscope and observe that the pulses are being generated.

 

Rick Hole

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io [mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io] On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 10:13 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

 

As we wait for Klaus to get back with us, I thought I would throw it out to this group.  As many know, I am installing a Lightspeed Plasma III electronic ignition system in my Q200.  Following the instructions, we have followed the steps and got to the point where we are rotating the prop to get the spark from the coils.  No spark so we are troubleshooting as best we can including reviewing the instructions for any missed steps.

Power from the battery to the circuit breakers is good and the signal coming back to the warning lights is good (if one coil fails a light comes on,  etc.).  However, we are not registering any power getting to the coils and have triple checked the wiring is connected to the ignition boxes going to the coils.

Could it be that the magnet sensor is not sending a signal back to the ignition boxes therefore no spark?  We wonder if there is a bad connection in one of the magnet sensors.  The other area I  thought it could be is that we are bypassing the keyed ignition for now.  My avionics guy assured me that it is not an area of concern since the way it is currently wired, it is not an open-loop (key in off position).  I still wonder though...

If anyone has any known common failure points please let me know.  We may try and go back out to the hangar this evening.

--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Jay Scheevel
 

A hall sensor measures presence of a magnetic field (or not). A simple magnetic sensor (coil) will see a “double” peak as the magnet passes. Not sure which type of sensor Klaus is using, but I suspect it is a hall sensor.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2020 9:51 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

 

I just went through the same issue on my Cozy installation. Everything checked out but still no sparks. Eventually traced it to the mini-sensor not being correctly aligned to the trigger ring. Aligned both in distance from and vertical to it.

 

Question; can you get a spark by passing a magnet (South Pole) over the mini sensor?

 

 

Bill Allen

 

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 at 17:33, Martin Skiby <mskiby@...> wrote:

That usually is a sign that the sensor is not picking up the trigger on the crank.  Check the spacing etc.  I have installed several of these in the past with 0 issues so it is probably something simple.

-----------------------------------------

From: "Corbin via groups.io"
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Monday November 9 2020 8:12:44AM
Subject: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

As we wait for Klaus to get back with us, I thought I would throw it out to this group.  As many know, I am installing a Lightspeed Plasma III electronic ignition system in my Q200.  Following the instructions, we have followed the steps and got to the point where we are rotating the prop to get the spark from the coils.  No spark so we are troubleshooting as best we can including reviewing the instructions for any missed steps.

Power from the battery to the circuit breakers is good and the signal coming back to the warning lights is good (if one coil fails a light comes on,  etc.).  However, we are not registering any power getting to the coils and have triple checked the wiring is connected to the ignition boxes going to the coils.

Could it be that the magnet sensor is not sending a signal back to the ignition boxes therefore no spark?  We wonder if there is a bad connection in one of the magnet sensors.  The other area I  thought it could be is that we are bypassing the keyed ignition for now.  My avionics guy assured me that it is not an area of concern since the way it is currently wired, it is not an open-loop (key in off position).  I still wonder though...

If anyone has any known common failure points please let me know.  We may try and go back out to the hangar this evening.

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Bill Allen
 

I just went through the same issue on my Cozy installation. Everything checked out but still no sparks. Eventually traced it to the mini-sensor not being correctly aligned to the trigger ring. Aligned both in distance from and vertical to it.

Question; can you get a spark by passing a magnet (South Pole) over the mini sensor?


Bill Allen

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 at 17:33, Martin Skiby <mskiby@...> wrote:
That usually is a sign that the sensor is not picking up the trigger on the crank.  Check the spacing etc.  I have installed several of these in the past with 0 issues so it is probably something simple.

-----------------------------------------

From: "Corbin via groups.io"
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Monday November 9 2020 8:12:44AM
Subject: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

As we wait for Klaus to get back with us, I thought I would throw it out to this group.  As many know, I am installing a Lightspeed Plasma III electronic ignition system in my Q200.  Following the instructions, we have followed the steps and got to the point where we are rotating the prop to get the spark from the coils.  No spark so we are troubleshooting as best we can including reviewing the instructions for any missed steps.

Power from the battery to the circuit breakers is good and the signal coming back to the warning lights is good (if one coil fails a light comes on,  etc.).  However, we are not registering any power getting to the coils and have triple checked the wiring is connected to the ignition boxes going to the coils.

Could it be that the magnet sensor is not sending a signal back to the ignition boxes therefore no spark?  We wonder if there is a bad connection in one of the magnet sensors.  The other area I  thought it could be is that we are bypassing the keyed ignition for now.  My avionics guy assured me that it is not an area of concern since the way it is currently wired, it is not an open-loop (key in off position).  I still wonder though...

If anyone has any known common failure points please let me know.  We may try and go back out to the hangar this evening.

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Jay Scheevel
 

Not sure if Klaus uses Hall sensors or not, or if it even matters, but there may be a high pass filter on the input from the sensor, that effectively blocks the signal if the magnet does not move past the sensor fast enough. This could be a safety feature to prevent the engine from firing when RPM is below a certain speed. I am just guessing here, but the board that he has in the system is certainly capable of doing this if he wanted to, and it would be a smart thing to do to prevent the engine from kicking back. To test this, you could disable your fuel system, hook an automotive timing strobe to your coil output and then crank the starter to watch the strobe to see if you are getting firing pulses. My uninformed 2-cents worth….

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2020 9:13 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

 

As we wait for Klaus to get back with us, I thought I would throw it out to this group.  As many know, I am installing a Lightspeed Plasma III electronic ignition system in my Q200.  Following the instructions, we have followed the steps and got to the point where we are rotating the prop to get the spark from the coils.  No spark so we are troubleshooting as best we can including reviewing the instructions for any missed steps.

Power from the battery to the circuit breakers is good and the signal coming back to the warning lights is good (if one coil fails a light comes on,  etc.).  However, we are not registering any power getting to the coils and have triple checked the wiring is connected to the ignition boxes going to the coils.

Could it be that the magnet sensor is not sending a signal back to the ignition boxes therefore no spark?  We wonder if there is a bad connection in one of the magnet sensors.  The other area I  thought it could be is that we are bypassing the keyed ignition for now.  My avionics guy assured me that it is not an area of concern since the way it is currently wired, it is not an open-loop (key in off position).  I still wonder though...

If anyone has any known common failure points please let me know.  We may try and go back out to the hangar this evening.

--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Martin Skiby
 

That usually is a sign that the sensor is not picking up the trigger on the crank.  Check the spacing etc.  I have installed several of these in the past with 0 issues so it is probably something simple.

-----------------------------------------

From: "Corbin via groups.io"
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Monday November 9 2020 8:12:44AM
Subject: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

As we wait for Klaus to get back with us, I thought I would throw it out to this group.  As many know, I am installing a Lightspeed Plasma III electronic ignition system in my Q200.  Following the instructions, we have followed the steps and got to the point where we are rotating the prop to get the spark from the coils.  No spark so we are troubleshooting as best we can including reviewing the instructions for any missed steps.

Power from the battery to the circuit breakers is good and the signal coming back to the warning lights is good (if one coil fails a light comes on,  etc.).  However, we are not registering any power getting to the coils and have triple checked the wiring is connected to the ignition boxes going to the coils.

Could it be that the magnet sensor is not sending a signal back to the ignition boxes therefore no spark?  We wonder if there is a bad connection in one of the magnet sensors.  The other area I  thought it could be is that we are bypassing the keyed ignition for now.  My avionics guy assured me that it is not an area of concern since the way it is currently wired, it is not an open-loop (key in off position).  I still wonder though...

If anyone has any known common failure points please let me know.  We may try and go back out to the hangar this evening.

--

Corbin 
N33QR


Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin
 

As we wait for Klaus to get back with us, I thought I would throw it out to this group.  As many know, I am installing a Lightspeed Plasma III electronic ignition system in my Q200.  Following the instructions, we have followed the steps and got to the point where we are rotating the prop to get the spark from the coils.  No spark so we are troubleshooting as best we can including reviewing the instructions for any missed steps.

Power from the battery to the circuit breakers is good and the signal coming back to the warning lights is good (if one coil fails a light comes on,  etc.).  However, we are not registering any power getting to the coils and have triple checked the wiring is connected to the ignition boxes going to the coils.

Could it be that the magnet sensor is not sending a signal back to the ignition boxes therefore no spark?  We wonder if there is a bad connection in one of the magnet sensors.  The other area I  thought it could be is that we are bypassing the keyed ignition for now.  My avionics guy assured me that it is not an area of concern since the way it is currently wired, it is not an open-loop (key in off position).  I still wonder though...

If anyone has any known common failure points please let me know.  We may try and go back out to the hangar this evening.

--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

https://youtu.be/aJkFnhqKkJw

Would this be a decent guide to potentially repairing the spar? At this point repairing can serve several purposes without risk. If its strong and works yay! If it doesn't work or I fail, then its good practice and we continue on with other options anyways. I don't feel like I have a lot to lose right now in playing with the option. Although my primary time and focus will be dressing out the fuselage, followed by the main wing. The canard can probably wait till near the end since its under consideration.


Re: Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

I would appreciate it. 


Re: Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

Mike Steinsland
 

I thought I had something else.
This is some photos of the inboard gear mounting on a Dragonfly


On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 8:33 PM <kingdws@...> wrote:
If you need information on the gear stuff mentioned in the newsletter Drew Aurigema is a friend/business partner so can put you in touch. He might still have everything still. I know he gave me a set of his Raptor plans on DVD and there might be something there as well. 

Dave

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 14:34 Mike Steinsland <MIKESKUSTOMS@...> wrote:
HiGuys
Just new to this forum
I just recently picked up a Q2 project up here in Parry Sound , Ont.
I found this Dragonfly lay up for gear.
I think I have something else but wifey has told me to fire up the barbee so I'll just send this for now


On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 3:05 PM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Good advice, Jim. If Cody is going to go with inboard gear, either tail dragged or nose dragged, then he could also do a Waddlelow design.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2020 12:30 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

Jay, after looking at the pictures and Cody telling me the shattered spar is about 14” from the small end, at the wheel pant, it seems to me that it would be difficult to fair in a repaired spar to the elevator slot core. As you know, that is a fairly thin area to work in. Also if the spar is not load tested and proven prior to install, a failure could cause the elevator end to fail. Repairing the spar in that area would be difficult even for experienced glass guys. My suggestion to him was to find a spar.

 

Believe me, flying a newly repaired spar

Is much more disturbing and unnerving than my 1st. flight was. With all the other stuff going on during the first flight, this is additional mental anguish you don’t need.

 

Not saying it can’t be done but personally I would be trying to find another spar. There’s got to be one around somewhere and there’s something to be said about peace of mind.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Jim

N46JP - Q200

 

Sent from Outer Space


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 8:51:59 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

Hi Cody,

 

I think you can repair/rebuild that outboard end of the spar. Better to do that than try to use one from salvage/wrecked plane, since the spar usually breaks in a crash and would probably be damaged on any salvaged plane.

 

If you can find a new spar that is an option, but they are hard to find.

 

If you want to repair:
One way to do it would be to could cut the damaged portion off squarely, then hot-wire a foam plug with the length and taper as inside of the portion of the spar you are replacing. After cutting off the damaged part off the spar you feather the undamaged portion back 1” per ply of carbon to allow you to lay up the unidirectional plies overlapping the feathered plies by 1” corresponding to the number of plies and weight of carbon as on the good portion of the spar. Jig the hotwired plug to be perfectly aligned with the remaining undamaged spar then layup the top side with carbon fiber overlapping the tapers*** (make sure the uni-fibers are straight). After it cures, flip the spar over and lay up on the bottom side with the same number of plies, overlapping the plies from the top layup on front and back of the spar by about an inch. Make sure you use peel ply on the front and back of the spar when you lay up the top side, so your bottom side layup will bond properly. You will probably want to sand slightly after the repair to smooth out the areas where the feathered plies are. Be careful not to damage your layups***. Then you will want to wrap the repair with one BiD ply at 45 degrees for shear strength.

 

If you are unsure about the number of plies and weight of the carbon fiber, you can take a piece of the damaged section that you cut off and carefully examine it and or destroy it to find out how many plies.  If it was fiberglass, you could probably burn it and find out, but I am pretty sure that would incinerate carbon fiber….maybe some else knows for sure.

 

***See the composite repair instructions in the Quickie plans for how to feather and do layup repairs. The unidirectional carbon is available from aircraft spruce. Wear a mask when sanding. The carbon fiber dust is nasty.

 

I am sure that the composite experts in this group (I am NOT a composite expert!) will improve on my suggestions, so stand by to see if they chime in. Good luck.

 

By the way, if there are still bottles of epoxy from the original kit, throw them away. They are way too old by now to use.

 

Cheers,

jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cody
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2020 11:29 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

Today my friend and I went into labor pains. We brought our baby "Gypsy Wind" to the hospital and made some contact with the doctors. Bruce, and Jim. So far we've got a mess of parts scattered and un-confirmed. We have found the fuselage is a little warped from sitting in pieces for 30 years. But there's a plan to fix that. We found the damage to one of the spare on the outboard edge to be more significant than we thought. Does anyone have a spar available? Maybe out of a crashed q200?



--
 
Mike Steinsland



--
 
Mike Steinsland


Re: November Q-Tour featuring Bruce Crain & Honey Lamb! - 11/14/2020 9:00 CST

John Hoxie
 

That's either an old picture or an old shirt.


On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 2:52 PM, Sam Hoskins
<sam.hoskins@...> wrote:
From Enid, Oklahoma join Bruce and Joanne as they show off their beautiful Tri-Q200.  This aircraft has the Wadalow canard and an extended wing.  He also has an MT variable pitch prop.

As usual, we'll have the presentation for the first 40 minutes. Then we'll all sign off, then back on for the Q&A session The link to the meeting is at the bottom of this email. Please don't attempt to log in before the designated time. If everything goes right, we'll have the session uploaded to YouTube in a couple of days.

Coming up in December will be Matthew Curico in his well-traveled Q-200. As you may know, Matthew has flown it to all of the lower 48 states, plus Alaska.  He even flew it to Barrow, AK.

Sam Hoskins is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
 
Topic: December Q-Tour with Bruce Crain
Time: Nov 14, 2020 09:00 AM Central Time (US and Canada)
 
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us04web.zoom.us/j/78012374049?pwd=Q3NiM0psUUVKanhsbEduMUljYzFqZz09
 
Meeting ID: 780 1237 4049
Passcode: bsw3tY

 


Re: Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

kingdws@...
 

If you need information on the gear stuff mentioned in the newsletter Drew Aurigema is a friend/business partner so can put you in touch. He might still have everything still. I know he gave me a set of his Raptor plans on DVD and there might be something there as well. 

Dave

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 14:34 Mike Steinsland <MIKESKUSTOMS@...> wrote:
HiGuys
Just new to this forum
I just recently picked up a Q2 project up here in Parry Sound , Ont.
I found this Dragonfly lay up for gear.
I think I have something else but wifey has told me to fire up the barbee so I'll just send this for now


On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 3:05 PM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Good advice, Jim. If Cody is going to go with inboard gear, either tail dragged or nose dragged, then he could also do a Waddlelow design.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2020 12:30 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

Jay, after looking at the pictures and Cody telling me the shattered spar is about 14” from the small end, at the wheel pant, it seems to me that it would be difficult to fair in a repaired spar to the elevator slot core. As you know, that is a fairly thin area to work in. Also if the spar is not load tested and proven prior to install, a failure could cause the elevator end to fail. Repairing the spar in that area would be difficult even for experienced glass guys. My suggestion to him was to find a spar.

 

Believe me, flying a newly repaired spar

Is much more disturbing and unnerving than my 1st. flight was. With all the other stuff going on during the first flight, this is additional mental anguish you don’t need.

 

Not saying it can’t be done but personally I would be trying to find another spar. There’s got to be one around somewhere and there’s something to be said about peace of mind.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Jim

N46JP - Q200

 

Sent from Outer Space


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 8:51:59 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

Hi Cody,

 

I think you can repair/rebuild that outboard end of the spar. Better to do that than try to use one from salvage/wrecked plane, since the spar usually breaks in a crash and would probably be damaged on any salvaged plane.

 

If you can find a new spar that is an option, but they are hard to find.

 

If you want to repair:
One way to do it would be to could cut the damaged portion off squarely, then hot-wire a foam plug with the length and taper as inside of the portion of the spar you are replacing. After cutting off the damaged part off the spar you feather the undamaged portion back 1” per ply of carbon to allow you to lay up the unidirectional plies overlapping the feathered plies by 1” corresponding to the number of plies and weight of carbon as on the good portion of the spar. Jig the hotwired plug to be perfectly aligned with the remaining undamaged spar then layup the top side with carbon fiber overlapping the tapers*** (make sure the uni-fibers are straight). After it cures, flip the spar over and lay up on the bottom side with the same number of plies, overlapping the plies from the top layup on front and back of the spar by about an inch. Make sure you use peel ply on the front and back of the spar when you lay up the top side, so your bottom side layup will bond properly. You will probably want to sand slightly after the repair to smooth out the areas where the feathered plies are. Be careful not to damage your layups***. Then you will want to wrap the repair with one BiD ply at 45 degrees for shear strength.

 

If you are unsure about the number of plies and weight of the carbon fiber, you can take a piece of the damaged section that you cut off and carefully examine it and or destroy it to find out how many plies.  If it was fiberglass, you could probably burn it and find out, but I am pretty sure that would incinerate carbon fiber….maybe some else knows for sure.

 

***See the composite repair instructions in the Quickie plans for how to feather and do layup repairs. The unidirectional carbon is available from aircraft spruce. Wear a mask when sanding. The carbon fiber dust is nasty.

 

I am sure that the composite experts in this group (I am NOT a composite expert!) will improve on my suggestions, so stand by to see if they chime in. Good luck.

 

By the way, if there are still bottles of epoxy from the original kit, throw them away. They are way too old by now to use.

 

Cheers,

jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cody
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2020 11:29 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

Today my friend and I went into labor pains. We brought our baby "Gypsy Wind" to the hospital and made some contact with the doctors. Bruce, and Jim. So far we've got a mess of parts scattered and un-confirmed. We have found the fuselage is a little warped from sitting in pieces for 30 years. But there's a plan to fix that. We found the damage to one of the spare on the outboard edge to be more significant than we thought. Does anyone have a spar available? Maybe out of a crashed q200?



--
 
Mike Steinsland


Re: Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

Mike Steinsland
 

HiGuys
Just new to this forum
I just recently picked up a Q2 project up here in Parry Sound , Ont.
I found this Dragonfly lay up for gear.
I think I have something else but wifey has told me to fire up the barbee so I'll just send this for now


On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 3:05 PM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Good advice, Jim. If Cody is going to go with inboard gear, either tail dragged or nose dragged, then he could also do a Waddlelow design.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2020 12:30 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

Jay, after looking at the pictures and Cody telling me the shattered spar is about 14” from the small end, at the wheel pant, it seems to me that it would be difficult to fair in a repaired spar to the elevator slot core. As you know, that is a fairly thin area to work in. Also if the spar is not load tested and proven prior to install, a failure could cause the elevator end to fail. Repairing the spar in that area would be difficult even for experienced glass guys. My suggestion to him was to find a spar.

 

Believe me, flying a newly repaired spar

Is much more disturbing and unnerving than my 1st. flight was. With all the other stuff going on during the first flight, this is additional mental anguish you don’t need.

 

Not saying it can’t be done but personally I would be trying to find another spar. There’s got to be one around somewhere and there’s something to be said about peace of mind.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Jim

N46JP - Q200

 

Sent from Outer Space


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 8:51:59 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

Hi Cody,

 

I think you can repair/rebuild that outboard end of the spar. Better to do that than try to use one from salvage/wrecked plane, since the spar usually breaks in a crash and would probably be damaged on any salvaged plane.

 

If you can find a new spar that is an option, but they are hard to find.

 

If you want to repair:
One way to do it would be to could cut the damaged portion off squarely, then hot-wire a foam plug with the length and taper as inside of the portion of the spar you are replacing. After cutting off the damaged part off the spar you feather the undamaged portion back 1” per ply of carbon to allow you to lay up the unidirectional plies overlapping the feathered plies by 1” corresponding to the number of plies and weight of carbon as on the good portion of the spar. Jig the hotwired plug to be perfectly aligned with the remaining undamaged spar then layup the top side with carbon fiber overlapping the tapers*** (make sure the uni-fibers are straight). After it cures, flip the spar over and lay up on the bottom side with the same number of plies, overlapping the plies from the top layup on front and back of the spar by about an inch. Make sure you use peel ply on the front and back of the spar when you lay up the top side, so your bottom side layup will bond properly. You will probably want to sand slightly after the repair to smooth out the areas where the feathered plies are. Be careful not to damage your layups***. Then you will want to wrap the repair with one BiD ply at 45 degrees for shear strength.

 

If you are unsure about the number of plies and weight of the carbon fiber, you can take a piece of the damaged section that you cut off and carefully examine it and or destroy it to find out how many plies.  If it was fiberglass, you could probably burn it and find out, but I am pretty sure that would incinerate carbon fiber….maybe some else knows for sure.

 

***See the composite repair instructions in the Quickie plans for how to feather and do layup repairs. The unidirectional carbon is available from aircraft spruce. Wear a mask when sanding. The carbon fiber dust is nasty.

 

I am sure that the composite experts in this group (I am NOT a composite expert!) will improve on my suggestions, so stand by to see if they chime in. Good luck.

 

By the way, if there are still bottles of epoxy from the original kit, throw them away. They are way too old by now to use.

 

Cheers,

jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cody
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2020 11:29 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

Today my friend and I went into labor pains. We brought our baby "Gypsy Wind" to the hospital and made some contact with the doctors. Bruce, and Jim. So far we've got a mess of parts scattered and un-confirmed. We have found the fuselage is a little warped from sitting in pieces for 30 years. But there's a plan to fix that. We found the damage to one of the spare on the outboard edge to be more significant than we thought. Does anyone have a spar available? Maybe out of a crashed q200?



--
 
Mike Steinsland


November Q-Tour featuring Bruce Crain & Honey Lamb! - 11/14/2020 9:00 CST

Sam Hoskins
 

From Enid, Oklahoma join Bruce and Joanne as they show off their beautiful Tri-Q200.  This aircraft has the Wadalow canard and an extended wing.  He also has an MT variable pitch prop.

As usual, we'll have the presentation for the first 40 minutes. Then we'll all sign off, then back on for the Q&A session The link to the meeting is at the bottom of this email. Please don't attempt to log in before the designated time. If everything goes right, we'll have the session uploaded to YouTube in a couple of days.

Coming up in December will be Matthew Curico in his well-traveled Q-200. As you may know, Matthew has flown it to all of the lower 48 states, plus Alaska.  He even flew it to Barrow, AK.

Sam Hoskins is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
 
Topic: December Q-Tour with Bruce Crain
Time: Nov 14, 2020 09:00 AM Central Time (US and Canada)
 
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us04web.zoom.us/j/78012374049?pwd=Q3NiM0psUUVKanhsbEduMUljYzFqZz09
 
Meeting ID: 780 1237 4049
Passcode: bsw3tY

 


Re: Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

Jay Scheevel
 

There have been a couple of guys who have built such a landing gear mounting box between the canard spar and the main tank, beefed up appropriately, then have used a hoop gear to build as tail dragger. This has also been done and extensively reported on the dragonfly. You may want to have a look around on the web for a design that you can apply to your aircraft. Grove will make aluminum hoop gear to your specification and gun drill them for the brake line, once you know the exact geometry you want to use.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cody
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2020 12:18 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

By quickly I guess it should be called a Q200 MKII. Moving the wheels and brakes inboard to a traditional Taildragger setup. Since the load on the outboard would be weight of landing loads if I stabilized the spar, run a C channel like the GU canard as well as the round carbon spar then spar cap the entire wing, it would be a bit more heavy. But it would be safe. Providing of course I find some plans on how the front landing gear mount into the plane/canard whichever. Right now it's looking kind of bleak, but there's a fix out there. We just need to find it.


Re: Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

Jay Scheevel
 

Good advice, Jim. If Cody is going to go with inboard gear, either tail dragged or nose dragged, then he could also do a Waddlelow design.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2020 12:30 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

Jay, after looking at the pictures and Cody telling me the shattered spar is about 14” from the small end, at the wheel pant, it seems to me that it would be difficult to fair in a repaired spar to the elevator slot core. As you know, that is a fairly thin area to work in. Also if the spar is not load tested and proven prior to install, a failure could cause the elevator end to fail. Repairing the spar in that area would be difficult even for experienced glass guys. My suggestion to him was to find a spar.

 

Believe me, flying a newly repaired spar

Is much more disturbing and unnerving than my 1st. flight was. With all the other stuff going on during the first flight, this is additional mental anguish you don’t need.

 

Not saying it can’t be done but personally I would be trying to find another spar. There’s got to be one around somewhere and there’s something to be said about peace of mind.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Jim

N46JP - Q200

 

Sent from Outer Space


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2020 8:51:59 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

Hi Cody,

 

I think you can repair/rebuild that outboard end of the spar. Better to do that than try to use one from salvage/wrecked plane, since the spar usually breaks in a crash and would probably be damaged on any salvaged plane.

 

If you can find a new spar that is an option, but they are hard to find.

 

If you want to repair:
One way to do it would be to could cut the damaged portion off squarely, then hot-wire a foam plug with the length and taper as inside of the portion of the spar you are replacing. After cutting off the damaged part off the spar you feather the undamaged portion back 1” per ply of carbon to allow you to lay up the unidirectional plies overlapping the feathered plies by 1” corresponding to the number of plies and weight of carbon as on the good portion of the spar. Jig the hotwired plug to be perfectly aligned with the remaining undamaged spar then layup the top side with carbon fiber overlapping the tapers*** (make sure the uni-fibers are straight). After it cures, flip the spar over and lay up on the bottom side with the same number of plies, overlapping the plies from the top layup on front and back of the spar by about an inch. Make sure you use peel ply on the front and back of the spar when you lay up the top side, so your bottom side layup will bond properly. You will probably want to sand slightly after the repair to smooth out the areas where the feathered plies are. Be careful not to damage your layups***. Then you will want to wrap the repair with one BiD ply at 45 degrees for shear strength.

 

If you are unsure about the number of plies and weight of the carbon fiber, you can take a piece of the damaged section that you cut off and carefully examine it and or destroy it to find out how many plies.  If it was fiberglass, you could probably burn it and find out, but I am pretty sure that would incinerate carbon fiber….maybe some else knows for sure.

 

***See the composite repair instructions in the Quickie plans for how to feather and do layup repairs. The unidirectional carbon is available from aircraft spruce. Wear a mask when sanding. The carbon fiber dust is nasty.

 

I am sure that the composite experts in this group (I am NOT a composite expert!) will improve on my suggestions, so stand by to see if they chime in. Good luck.

 

By the way, if there are still bottles of epoxy from the original kit, throw them away. They are way too old by now to use.

 

Cheers,

jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cody
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2020 11:29 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Beginning labor pains #photo-notice

 

Today my friend and I went into labor pains. We brought our baby "Gypsy Wind" to the hospital and made some contact with the doctors. Bruce, and Jim. So far we've got a mess of parts scattered and un-confirmed. We have found the fuselage is a little warped from sitting in pieces for 30 years. But there's a plan to fix that. We found the damage to one of the spare on the outboard edge to be more significant than we thought. Does anyone have a spar available? Maybe out of a crashed q200?

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