Date   

Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Anthony P
 

This is all very good information/findings for public distribution.

Seems like the free magnet passing over the sensor should be a recommended early trouble shooting procedure.  Maybe even a bench procedure for proving system function before an aircraft is involved.

"The alignment is within the tolerance of the manual but not enough to get the spark."
This is a problem. If the sensor is within the stated alignment tolerance radially and axially, but the system does not function, then the tolerance spec is wrong. Not good. 
Due to many factors, the stated alignment tolerance needs to be well within the actual alignment tolerance for system functionality. 
Otherwise someone could be on the cusp of functionality without knowing it and vibration, thermal expansion, sensor performance thermal effects, magnetic strength thermal effects,... could push it into the non-functioning region.
Added to this list are magnetic field shape and strength variation from the manufacturer.  This, of course, should be baked into the system level alignment tolerance.
What are the radial and axial alignment tolerance specs?  
Has anyone confirmed these under real world condition changes?
I'm guessing no one is swapping out magnets to test sensitivity, rather they are just making it work for the magnets they received.


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Leif Johnson
 

When I installed mine on my EZ I had to slightly modify the sensor bracket to position the sensor correctly. Remove the sensor and with the system powered, just carefully move it over the magnets in the disk til it sparks. You’ll find it is very sensitive to  radial positioning, hence modifying the bracket. I had to oval the holes a bit to position the sensor farther away from center just a tad. You’ll find one coils’ magnet to be quite literally 1/8” outside the other as the disk rotates. It took me a few days to figure it out. I also had to grind a bit on the case to get the mentioned bracket to not warp when tightened into place. As I install the same system on my Q200 I will expect to have to do the same fussing. That being said, other than the plug wires sliding off a couple times (make sure the rubber boot is worked down. . . Way down on the automotive plug), I’ve been thrilled with the performance of this system. It really is awesome, especially at higher altitudes. Good luck!
Leif Johnson
Vari Ez Race 25
Q-200 (almost). 


On Nov 9, 2020, at 10:37, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Not sure if Klaus uses Hall sensors or not, or if it even matters, but there may be a high pass filter on the input from the sensor, that effectively blocks the signal if the magnet does not move past the sensor fast enough. This could be a safety feature to prevent the engine from firing when RPM is below a certain speed. I am just guessing here, but the board that he has in the system is certainly capable of doing this if he wanted to, and it would be a smart thing to do to prevent the engine from kicking back. To test this, you could disable your fuel system, hook an automotive timing strobe to your coil output and then crank the starter to watch the strobe to see if you are getting firing pulses. My uninformed 2-cents worth….

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Corbin via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2020 9:13 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

 

As we wait for Klaus to get back with us, I thought I would throw it out to this group.  As many know, I am installing a Lightspeed Plasma III electronic ignition system in my Q200.  Following the instructions, we have followed the steps and got to the point where we are rotating the prop to get the spark from the coils.  No spark so we are troubleshooting as best we can including reviewing the instructions for any missed steps.

Power from the battery to the circuit breakers is good and the signal coming back to the warning lights is good (if one coil fails a light comes on,  etc.).  However, we are not registering any power getting to the coils and have triple checked the wiring is connected to the ignition boxes going to the coils.

Could it be that the magnet sensor is not sending a signal back to the ignition boxes therefore no spark?  We wonder if there is a bad connection in one of the magnet sensors.  The other area I  thought it could be is that we are bypassing the keyed ignition for now.  My avionics guy assured me that it is not an area of concern since the way it is currently wired, it is not an open-loop (key in off position).  I still wonder though...

If anyone has any known common failure points please let me know.  We may try and go back out to the hangar this evening.

--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Because.....well....Klaus.  😀

Corbin

On Nov 14, 2020, at 6:38 PM, Rik <Info@...> wrote:

Why doesn’t Klaus simply send you the correct brackets??
 
Seems that would have solved a lot of cost and aggravation.

--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Rik
 

Why doesn’t Klaus simply send you the correct brackets??
 
Seems that would have solved a lot of cost and aggravation.


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Bill,

Your South Pole magnet comment helped us.  It’s the one thing we had tried yet due to simply not having one.  We immediately got a spark yesterday when we did it.  Pure joy.

Then we realized a more effective test is to just pass the sensor across the magnet in the plate.  That way, you can confirm both the sensor and the plate work at the same time.  Of course, if still no spark then the South Pole of a magnet could still prove the sensor back to input and output to cooks works.  

I think Klaus should have immediately offered to send replacement brackets instead of having me makeshift a solution.

Corbin

On Nov 14, 2020, at 8:16 AM, Bill Allen <billallensworld@...> wrote:


Thanks Corbin. Understood. I had the same issue ( which I described way back in this thread) - the bracket fitted the engine OK, but unless the sensor was perfectly lined up, no sparks. 
I confirmed the system was wired correctly by passing a S-pole of a magnet over the mini-sensor, in which case the plugs would spark.
I don't like to call Klaus as it’s always my fault. I think in Germany the customer isn’t always right..... and statistically Klaus probably has this confirmed for him on a daily basis.

Bill

On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 at 02:22, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hey Bill,

I guess I was so happy about the spark that I neglected to clarify.   Thanks for that.   Yes, both brackets holding the DC mini sensor, to the engine case, were not drilled correctly.  I am not sure if they are for a different engine or just drilled incorrectly.  Klaus recommended drilling new holes.  There is no room for new holes, I would have to modify the existing holes which could have the risk of moving under vibration....then no more sparky sparky.

So I will look into making my own new brackets with correctly drilled holes.  The alignment is within the tolerance of the manual but not enough to get the spark.  I can tell you, from a technical writer's perspective, that there are many areas of improvement in that install manual.   Needless to say areas of quality control concern.

But I now have sparks so I am happy as can be.
--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Bill Allen
 

Thanks Corbin. Understood. I had the same issue ( which I described way back in this thread) - the bracket fitted the engine OK, but unless the sensor was perfectly lined up, no sparks. 
I confirmed the system was wired correctly by passing a S-pole of a magnet over the mini-sensor, in which case the plugs would spark.
I don't like to call Klaus as it’s always my fault. I think in Germany the customer isn’t always right..... and statistically Klaus probably has this confirmed for him on a daily basis.

Bill

On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 at 02:22, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hey Bill,

I guess I was so happy about the spark that I neglected to clarify.   Thanks for that.   Yes, both brackets holding the DC mini sensor, to the engine case, were not drilled correctly.  I am not sure if they are for a different engine or just drilled incorrectly.  Klaus recommended drilling new holes.  There is no room for new holes, I would have to modify the existing holes which could have the risk of moving under vibration....then no more sparky sparky.

So I will look into making my own new brackets with correctly drilled holes.  The alignment is within the tolerance of the manual but not enough to get the spark.  I can tell you, from a technical writer's perspective, that there are many areas of improvement in that install manual.   Needless to say areas of quality control concern.

But I now have sparks so I am happy as can be.
--

Corbin 
N33QR

--


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Yes, in fact, a local IA recommended that approach as well.  I’d certainly would be easiest.

Corbin

On Nov 14, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Mike Steinsland <MIKESKUSTOMS@...> wrote:


Is it possible to weld the mounting holes shut then drill new ones?
Save a lot of manufacturing 

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:22 PM Corbin via groups.io, <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hey Bill,

I guess I was so happy about the spark that I neglected to clarify.   Thanks for that.   Yes, both brackets holding the DC mini sensor, to the engine case, were not drilled correctly.  I am not sure if they are for a different engine or just drilled incorrectly.  Klaus recommended drilling new holes.  There is no room for new holes, I would have to modify the existing holes which could have the risk of moving under vibration....then no more sparky sparky.

So I will look into making my own new brackets with correctly drilled holes.  The alignment is within the tolerance of the manual but not enough to get the spark.  I can tell you, from a technical writer's perspective, that there are many areas of improvement in that install manual.   Needless to say areas of quality control concern.

But I now have sparks so I am happy as can be.
--

Corbin 
N33QR


--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Mike Steinsland
 

Is it possible to weld the mounting holes shut then drill new ones?
Save a lot of manufacturing 

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020, 8:22 PM Corbin via groups.io, <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hey Bill,

I guess I was so happy about the spark that I neglected to clarify.   Thanks for that.   Yes, both brackets holding the DC mini sensor, to the engine case, were not drilled correctly.  I am not sure if they are for a different engine or just drilled incorrectly.  Klaus recommended drilling new holes.  There is no room for new holes, I would have to modify the existing holes which could have the risk of moving under vibration....then no more sparky sparky.

So I will look into making my own new brackets with correctly drilled holes.  The alignment is within the tolerance of the manual but not enough to get the spark.  I can tell you, from a technical writer's perspective, that there are many areas of improvement in that install manual.   Needless to say areas of quality control concern.

But I now have sparks so I am happy as can be.
--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Hey Bill,

I guess I was so happy about the spark that I neglected to clarify.   Thanks for that.   Yes, both brackets holding the DC mini sensor, to the engine case, were not drilled correctly.  I am not sure if they are for a different engine or just drilled incorrectly.  Klaus recommended drilling new holes.  There is no room for new holes, I would have to modify the existing holes which could have the risk of moving under vibration....then no more sparky sparky.

So I will look into making my own new brackets with correctly drilled holes.  The alignment is within the tolerance of the manual but not enough to get the spark.  I can tell you, from a technical writer's perspective, that there are many areas of improvement in that install manual.   Needless to say areas of quality control concern.

But I now have sparks so I am happy as can be.
--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Bill Allen
 

Good that the problem has been found to be; <<the brackets sent to me were not drilled correctly causing misalignment >>

Do you mean the bracket that holds the mini-sensor to the engine case, or some other bracket?

Bill Allen



On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 22:19, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
The resolution on this issue has been discovered so I wanted to update this thread for future reference.  

Klaus has been great and it has been discovered (and proven) that the brackets sent to me were not drilled correctly causing misalignment.  We were at least correct in identifying the problem area.  Off to design a new bracket modification now.

Corbin 
N33QR

--


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

The resolution on this issue has been discovered so I wanted to update this thread for future reference.  

Klaus has been great and it has been discovered (and proven) that the brackets sent to me were not drilled correctly causing misalignment.  We were at least correct in identifying the problem area.  Off to design a new bracket modification now.

Corbin 
N33QR


Reminder: November Q-Tour featuring Bruce Crain & Honey Lamb! - Saturday, 11/14/2020 9:00 CST

Sam Hoskins
 

From Enid, Oklahoma join Bruce and Joanne as they show off their beautiful Tri-Q200.  This aircraft has the Wadalow canard and an extended wing.  He also has an MT variable pitch prop.

As usual, we'll have the presentation for the first 40 minutes. Then we'll all sign off, then back on for the Q&A session The link to the meeting is at the bottom of this email. Please don't attempt to log in before the designated time. If everything goes right, we'll have the session uploaded to YouTube in a couple of days.

Coming up in December will be Matthew Curico in his well-traveled Q-200. As you may know, Matthew has flown it to all of the lower 48 states, plus Alaska.  He even flew it to Barrow, AK.

Sam Hoskins is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
 
Topic: December Q-Tour with Bruce Crain
Time: Nov 14, 2020 09:00 AM Central Time (US and Canada)
 
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us04web.zoom.us/j/78012374049?pwd=Q3NiM0psUUVKanhsbEduMUljYzFqZz09
 
Meeting ID: 780 1237 4049
Passcode: bsw3tY


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

All questions welcome and this might actually be a good one as well.  I noticed on the RV forum that one guy noticed his pin 1 and 9 and had a solder issue connecting them together.  I will need to confer with Marcus, my avionics guy, to be 100%.  I know he thoroughly checked all the pins a  few times and saw the voltage he wanted or expected. But won't hurt for me to double-check with him.

It seemed the part we were not seeing (besides the spark) is the drop in voltage on the input side when the magnet passes by the sensor.  We would see 5v so we know the current is flowing, but if I understand correctly, the magnet interrupts the current  (5v drops to 0)  which sends off the signal to the output side to fire the spark.   
--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Paul Fisher
 

(one more stupid question)
Are you sure pins 1 and 9 are NOT connected together on the output connector?  Connecting those two pins together shuts off the ignition - just like a p-lead on a magneto.

Like I said, stupid question, but I couldn't help asking!

Paul

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020, 12:03 Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Good question. Yes, we have a full 12v to both ignitions.  We have only run the starter 3-4 times and are still showing 12v but have a battery charger ready in case it drops during further testing.
--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Good question. Yes, we have a full 12v to both ignitions.  We have only run the starter 3-4 times and are still showing 12v but have a battery charger ready in case it drops during further testing.
--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Jim Patillo
 

Is battery fully charged and supplying 12V+ to both ignitions?

Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 9:37:46 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils
 
We are closer to .030" in the range of .030" to .060" since the crankshaft on the O-200 doesn't move back and forth much.   I want to say we left it around .032".
--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

We are closer to .030" in the range of .030" to .060" since the crankshaft on the O-200 doesn't move back and forth much.   I want to say we left it around .032".
--

Corbin 
N33QR


Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Jim Patillo
 

How much gap do you have between the magnet and pickup?

Jim
N46JP Q200


Re: Q-2 /Q-200 parts for sale almost free

Kyle Voltz <kvoltz21@...>
 

Boy could I use the tail cone parts, but I’m in Oshkosh :/

Kyle D. Voltz
20 Castle Ct. Oshkosh, WI 54902
Mobile309.945.5188 | EmailKvoltz21@...
 
Commercial Pilot ASEL/AMEL
Instrument | Complex | Tailwheel | High Performance
EAA Flight Advisor 880499
 


On Nov 11, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Martin Skiby <mskiby@...> wrote:

I have a set of wings and the LS canard has a spar in it.  But I don't want to break up the kit so if he wants they he would need to buy the whole thing.

Then lots of spare parts he would have :)


-----------------------------------------

From: "Bruce Crain"
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday November 11 2020 11:20:40AM
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q-2 /Q-200 parts for sale almost free

Cody Craig needs a carbon fiber spar if you  have one!
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Stan Susman" <stanpfa@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Q-2 /Q-200 parts for sale almost free
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 11:14:53 -0800

Gang, I have some factory new Q-2 parts for sale. I need them gone fast. If you belong to a EAA chapter of have another 501c3 org I will donate them.
top and bottom fuse.
top and bottom tail cone 
most bulkheads
canopy
top and bottom cowl
I also have some 4A-084 engines (2 new) and prop hubs
e-mail stanpfa@... or call 831-334-3035 near Watsonville ca
thanks




Re: Electronic Ignition Install - No Spark from Coils

Corbin <c_geiser@...>
 

Just in case anyone was curious about an update, I thought I would let you know still no luck after trying again last night.

Klaus recommended we troubleshoot the input signal test but that passed as well-meaning the current is flowing from the sensor to the input on the ignition boxes.  Just to be certain, we went through all troubleshooting steps again with no luck.  Sensor alignment triple checked, 5v passes to input and we have output back to coils.  At this point, all signs seem to be pointing towards the magnet plate so we the only thing left to try, that we could think of, is passing the South pole of a magnet by the sensor to see if we can get the volt drop.  

In the meantime, we will see what else Klaus recommends.

--

Corbin 
N33QR

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