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Re: Resin volume placed on foam
Robert Cringely
Ideally you want 50 percent glass and 50 percent resin by weight, which is what you generally get with pre-preg. But, as another poster noted, there can be a dry lay-up problem if you push too hard in that direction, hence that original guidance about aiming for 60 percent resin, which is pretty okay and better than most. But there's another problem to be considered with Rutan construction, which is whatever weight you save in the lay-up you are likely to lose in the finishing. It amazes me to see builders who fight for that last ounce of resin then slather Bondo on the final surface for finishing. Yes, most of the Bondo is sanded off and yes, you can use micro instead of Bondo, but it still makes good sense to take a holistic approach to composite work. Your vacuum bagging sounds great, but keep the finish line in mind. I'll always remember the wisdom of Dragonfly designer Bob Walters, writing in Sport Aviation. Bob maintained that humans can tolerate only so much sanding and paint prep, so if you spend too much time on the prep you can't help yourself but rush to finish the painting. He thought the psychological sanding limit was 250 hours. So if you obsess too much with the early stuff, you'll rush too much at the end and the plane will show it. Wise man.
On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 10:18 AM <smeshno1@...> wrote:
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Re: More random pictures of Quickie and then some!
JMasal@...
very nice werk, brucie
-----Original Message----- From: Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> To: main@Q-List.groups.io Sent: Wed, Mar 24, 2021 8:16 am Subject: [Q-List] More random pictures of Quickie and then some! I found these in my inbox from a long time ago! Whet your whistle and look over the pictures section! Some are from Orange, Massachusetts Field Of Dreams, Enid, Oklahoma also plus extras from other places! Lots of beautiful Quickies and friends so take a break and enjoy!
Bruce Crain
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Re: Resin volume placed on foam
Yes.. and with caul sheet and/or tooling surfaces this is especially true. Saves lots of TIME..but not a lot in weight.
Of course, in a production setting time reduction is a major part of the path to profits. Big difference in mission of the projects. Our project out in our shop is not demanding a profit margin for the stockholders. I personally have no problems with anyone
using all the up to date techniques if one wishes to do so..if the structure is good..no problem. God knows we have (and STILL have) plenty of failures in mass
production in parts...even with the most fancy dancy methods and toys money can buy!. Not me.. I'm not looking to save 10 pounds over all and spend oodles of time and greenbacks to get them. I had to do that as a job over 30 years..chasing time and methods
all over the place for a few pounds or minutes saving.
I'm interested in adding safety and access using the existing methods and structure as much as possible.
Vern
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2021 7:56 PM To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam From memory the Cozy girls said “you won’t save any weight with their vacuum bagging. It just made smooth uniform pieces that didn’t need much filler”. That’s from about 10+ years ago so I can’t “etch that in stone”.
Bruce
On Mar 23, 2021, at 7:01 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:
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Fuel tank options.
It (the internal tank foams).. would displace some capacity, yes.
My particular solution, Bruce, is to purchase a blown seamless poly tank, and then plans build around it. I am looking at a tank right now that is holding 250 gallons of water in my cottage. Part of my rain catchment system. It is common material.
My engine compression is safe using 93 octane (boat gas).. NO ethanol!! 100LL is of course also no problem for detonation protection, but I must use lead extraction additive. Neither fuel will attack the poly tank(s)... both tanks can take pressurization,
within reason of course. They are tuff!! I have purposely inflated and deflated sealed tanks just to see where they fail at. No dice..
they stayed fluid tight.
Vern
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2021 8:01 PM To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Forward Canopy geometry The airframe needs to be as light as possible. The foam filled fuel tanks would take away a bit of fuel volume wouldn’t it?
Bruce
On Mar 23, 2021, at 6:18 PM, Anthony P <solarant@...> wrote:
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Re: Resin volume placed on foam
To give Rutan much credit..he erred by being a bit too heavy in resin but the result is safe homebuilt structures. Keep in mind, he had full access to all that Raytheon Beechcraft R&D had available, therefore he knew all the latest techniques and materials
we had, and still his method at RAF was what is taught in our Q2 and other tool-less composite aircraft plans sets. I chatted many times with the folks at Scaled Composits and they never used any other method on any of the concept aircraft at the time.
In Production this porosity condition is why now the pressure and temps are "ramped" both up and down. Porosity in the finished product is caused by error in regulation.
Over decades and with much R&D at Beech and Boeing, later Airbus; the correct programs were discovered. Mostly the early issues were with too high pressure and simply throwing the coals to the fire so to speak. Todays methods with honeycomb core the situation
of improving bond to the curing pre-preg at lower peak pressures is addressed using adhesive film.
Rob has a valid point that too much vacuum can and will dry the wetout. Insufficient resin. The bleeder wicks the uncured resin by design. What thickness were
you using Rob?
Using Infusion the resin is drawn through the dry layup at a rate that is timed..so the over
vacuum condition is controlled. At the size of this airframe I have doubts that a great deal of weight is built in by using the plans methods. Non structural parts, for myself, I have no qualms about using the vacuum process and tooling (caul and contoured).
I accept the Frankenbird is a bit heavy but I'm not concerned about a compressive failure in heavy chop either. I could stand to loose a few pounds off my 64 year
old tired ass to make up the difference. That is why the Canard and Wing are per plans Dragonfly.. wet out..stipple..squeegee....dry micro..sand sand sand...primer..more sanding..primer again..more sanding. Not much fun but part of the process.
Vern
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 8:26 AM To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam Eugen, that looks like an excellent setup, especially with the vacuum (buffer) tanks. That saves a
lot of running hours on your pump. One additional comment, triggered by your photo: I experienced that vacuum bagging resulted in a very dry layup, too dry actually. Maybe the bleeder layer was too thick? I never completely understood what happened there. Thinking about it now, just maybe the vacuum was too deep, and the resin started foaming, and ended up in the bleeder? I don't know, but it shows again that vacuum bagging can have unwanted effects, and vacuum level control is important. Watch out for this effect. Rob On 24 Mar 2021 14:02, Eugen Pilarski wrote: > For the vacuum bagging I build up a pump station with a digital pressure switch (SMV ZSE30A), so > I’m able to set up any pressure level which the process requested. Please find below the link with > some drawings and pictures. https://aerobase.weebly.com/vaccum-pump-station.html > <https://aerobase.weebly.com/vaccum-pump-station.html> > > For the vacuum pump unit I use Brand Thomas , please find below a link from eBay to show a example, > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Thomas-Vacuum-Pump-2639VES44-337A-Pumps-Compressor/323746918283?hash=item4b60d1ef8b:g:P8UAAOSwzilZvXgb > <https://www.ebay.com/itm/Thomas-Vacuum-Pump-2639VES44-337A-Pumps-Compressor/323746918283?hash=item4b60d1ef8b:g:P8UAAOSwzilZvXgb> > In my last vacuum bag projects there was not any issue about temperature but to find leaks in my bag > was the biggest challenge at all :-) > > Please find below a picture from bulkhead FS83 after 16h fixed in vaccum bag. > > Best regards > > Eugen > > > >> Am 24.03.2021 um 13:35 schrieb Rob de Bie <robdebie@... <mailto:robdebie@...>>: >> >> From memory, the Cri-Cri build manual suggest the use of a regular household vacuum cleaner, for >> the build step where you glue the aluminum skin on the Klegecell ribs. >> >> I would guess you can pull just a light vacuum with a vacuum cleaner, maybe 0.2 or 0.3 bar, which >> would be perfect. But I would take a look at the cooling of the motor - if there is no air flow, >> there is no cooling I guess. >> >> Rob >> >> On 24 Mar 2021 08:22, Christoph Steiner via groups.io <http://groups.io> wrote: >>> Here is the description of the Cozygirrls LoVac method: >>> https://web.archive.org/web/20080515110218fw_/http://www.cozygirrrl.com/lovac.htm >>> <https://web.archive.org/web/20080515110218fw_/http://www.cozygirrrl.com/lovac.htm> >>> Christoph Steiner >>>> Am 23.03.2021 um 21:21 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>: >>>> >>>> I looked there too, Bruce, but I could not find their videos on vacuum bagging. Maybe they took >>>> them down. I remember them using a fish tank pump for vacuum. >>>> >>>> …… >>>> Hey Sammy Hoskins had the Cozy Girls show us some light vacuum bagging at one of our Field Of >>>> Dreams events in Illinois. It was very interesting and may be what you’re looking for. >>>> www.cozygirrrl.com >>>> Bruce Crain >> >> >> >> >> > >
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Re: More random pictures of Quickie and then some!
Jerry Marstall
Wow, what a great collection. J
On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 9:17 AM Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
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Re: Forward Canopy geometry
Another thing you might want to think about is the fuel tanks are stiffeners for the fuselage. Your mileage may vary if you don't use the plans built fuel tanks. The Quickie fuselage is a tough one but with mods it could be less than optimal. Also changing shape could cost you with respect to fuel volume which is about 2+ hours flight time unless you build a removable aux tank like lots of Quickie builders have opted to do.
There are a few mods to the fuel tank that improve them such as an extra layer of cloth across the bottom of the main tank to keep them from seeping. Also extra build up across the main tank on top to stiffen if a bit with respect to stepping on it every time you get in the aircraft. Also making light weight/dry lay ups on the tanks will get you pin holes that may leak in the future.
Just saying.
Bruce Crain
---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Anthony P" <solarant@...> To: main@Q-List.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] Forward Canopy geometry Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 18:39:57 -0700 You don't have to use foam. I have a mid-tear 10 gal. cell and the bladder is 3 lbs. They have higher priced and lighter bladder materials. 3 lbs doesn't seem to be too much of a sacrifice for the safety, especially if the alternative is a rapid dump/eject system.
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Re: Resin volume placed on foam
Rob de Bie
Eugen, that looks like an excellent setup, especially with the vacuum (buffer) tanks. That saves a lot of running hours on your pump.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
One additional comment, triggered by your photo: I experienced that vacuum bagging resulted in a very dry layup, too dry actually. Maybe the bleeder layer was too thick? I never completely understood what happened there. Thinking about it now, just maybe the vacuum was too deep, and the resin started foaming, and ended up in the bleeder? I don't know, but it shows again that vacuum bagging can have unwanted effects, and vacuum level control is important. Watch out for this effect. Rob
On 24 Mar 2021 14:02, Eugen Pilarski wrote:
For the vacuum bagging I build up a pump station with a digital pressure switch (SMV ZSE30A), so I’m able to set up any pressure level which the process requested. Please find below the link with some drawings and pictures. https://aerobase.weebly.com/vaccum-pump-station.html <https://aerobase.weebly.com/vaccum-pump-station.html>
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More random pictures of Quickie and then some!
I found these in my inbox from a long time ago! Whet your whistle and look over the pictures section! Some are from Orange, Massachusetts Field Of Dreams, Enid, Oklahoma also plus extras from other places! Lots of beautiful Quickies and friends so take a break and enjoy!
Bruce Crain
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Re: Resin volume placed on foam
For the vacuum bagging I build up a pump station with a digital pressure switch (SMV ZSE30A), so I’m able to set up any pressure level which the process requested. Please find below the link with some drawings and pictures. https://aerobase.weebly.com/vaccum-pump-station.html For the vacuum pump unit I use Brand Thomas , please find below a link from eBay to show a example, https://www.ebay.com/itm/Thomas-Vacuum-Pump-2639VES44-337A-Pumps-Compressor/323746918283?hash=item4b60d1ef8b:g:P8UAAOSwzilZvXgb In my last vacuum bag projects there was not any issue about temperature but to find leaks in my bag was the biggest challenge at all :-) Please find below a picture from bulkhead FS83 after 16h fixed in vaccum bag. Best regards Eugen 
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Re: Resin volume placed on foam
Rob de Bie
From memory, the Cri-Cri build manual suggest the use of a regular household vacuum cleaner, for the build step where you glue the aluminum skin on the Klegecell ribs.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I would guess you can pull just a light vacuum with a vacuum cleaner, maybe 0.2 or 0.3 bar, which would be perfect. But I would take a look at the cooling of the motor - if there is no air flow, there is no cooling I guess. Rob
On 24 Mar 2021 08:22, Christoph Steiner via groups.io wrote:
Here is the description of the Cozygirrls LoVac method:
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Re: Resin volume placed on foam
Christoph Steiner
Here is the description of the Cozygirrls LoVac method:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
https://web.archive.org/web/20080515110218fw_/http://www.cozygirrrl.com/lovac.htm Christoph Steiner
Am 23.03.2021 um 21:21 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>: Hey Sammy Hoskins had the Cozy Girls show us some light vacuum bagging at one of our Field Of Dreams events in Illinois. It was very interesting and may be what you’re looking for. www.cozygirrrl.com
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Re: Forward Canopy geometry
Anthony P
You don't have to use foam.
I have a mid-tear 10 gal. cell and the bladder is 3 lbs. They have higher priced and lighter bladder materials. 3 lbs doesn't seem to be too much of a sacrifice for the safety, especially if the alternative is a rapid dump/eject system.
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Re: Resin volume placed on foam
You can contact Chrissi Bush at cozygirrrl@.... I fear your efforts at saving a few grams, while admirable, may prevent you from ever finishing your aircraft unless you are looking to break Jay Scheevel's record of time to build. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are trying to accomplish here. At any rate, enjoy your project and keep reporting back. Sam Hoskins Q-200
On Tue, Mar 23, 2021, 7:57 PM Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
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Re: Forward Canopy geometry
The airframe needs to be as light as possible. The foam filled fuel tanks would take away a bit of fuel volume wouldn’t it?
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Bruce
On Mar 23, 2021, at 6:18 PM, Anthony P <solarant@...> wrote:
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Re: Resin volume placed on foam
From memory the Cozy girls said “you won’t save any weight with their vacuum bagging. It just made smooth uniform pieces that didn’t need much filler”. That’s from about 10+ years ago so I can’t “etch that in stone”.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Bruce
On Mar 23, 2021, at 7:01 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:
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Re: Resin volume placed on foam
Vern at one time owned Cozy plans set #43... and my plan back then was to build a 13B rotary which was pretty innovative in 1982..I had the engine all ready.. lots of Racing Beat ideas and parts.
My fellow Starship R&D techs used to razz me about which fuel I was going to use.. maybe Saki? Dave Blanton jr was also on the Starship Department 45 team and his Dad had a company building reduction drives for V6 Fords. He had a 172 with one under cowling
in Augusta Kansas. That was the drive I intended to mate to the Rotary. The drive never did pan out well..lots of bad noises as I learned.
I never met the Cozy girls but did read some of the blog in the past. It warms my heart that the aircraft did get built and that engine does indeed perform well.
I also searched today as Jay did.. didn't find the vacuum lite either, but it is interesting to learn process differences.
Me wonders if they can send a link to our list group if it still exists?
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2021 3:21 PM To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam I looked there too, Bruce, but I could not find their videos on vacuum bagging. Maybe they took them down. I remember them using a fish tank pump for vacuum.
Cheers, Jay -----Original Message----- From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2021 1:25 PM To: main@q-list.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam Hey Sammy Hoskins had the Cozy Girls show us some light vacuum bagging at one of our Field Of Dreams events in Illinois. It was very interesting and may be what you’re looking for. www.cozygirrrl.com Bruce Crain > On Mar 23, 2021, at 12:10 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote: > Eugen, I would be careful with vacuum bagging your parts. You're making quite a big change from the original building methods. The foam is not meant for full vacuum. And possibly it will absorb more resin due to the vacuum. I've done lots of vacuum injection, and the resin that goes into the foam cancels out all weight gains. > > I fully understand your desire to build quality parts, but this might not work out so well. Maybe a light vacuum (if that exists :-) is a better way, say -0.1 or -0.2 bar. > > Rob > >> On 23 Mar 2021 13:30, Eugen Pilarski wrote: >> Dear Q-community, >> the bulkheads of the Q1 are already cut and the worktable for vacuum-wrap is ready to go. After I study again the Quickie wokshop manual on page 3-11 in Step 7: Squeegeeing .......... If you’ve done an excellent job, the weight of resin will be about 2/3 of the weight of cloth used. ........ >> So we use glass with a weight of 296g/m2 and based on the number of Step 7 in Quickie built manual show up, that the requested resin will be 200g/m2 ( 2/3 of 300g/m is 200g). Is that correct? >> But the laminate calculator of R&G get me out 243 g/m2 and is 20% >> more that Rutan numbers indicate, please find the link below: R&G >> laminate calculator <https://www.r-g.de/en/laminatecalculator.html> >> Framework: >> Fibre type: glass fibre - 2.6 g/cm3 >> Areal weight: 296g/m2 >> Fibre volume fraction: Hand-lay-up 35% Number of layers: 1 Laminate >> thickness: 1mm >> Width: 1000 mm >> Lenkt: 1000 mm >> Resin type: Epoxy Resin - 1.15 g/cm3 print >> Result: >> Number of layers 1 Layers >> Laminate thickness 0.33 mm >> Fibre reinforcement surface area 1.00 m² >> Fibre reinforcement gross weight 296 g >> Resin quantity 243 g >> Laminate weight 539 g >> Fibre content (weight) 54.9 % >> Fibre content (volume) 35.0 % >> Did you guys fixed a resin volume per square meter during your building process as maximum or just the wet as should and dry as possible rule? >> I ask to understood how may resin should be placed on the foam to reach the material strength and stay in low weight at all parts that need to produce. So sounds like the old story...... >> Best regards >> Eugen > > > ____________________________________________________________ Sponsored by https://www.newser.com/?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_taglines_more 21-Year-Old Charged in Boulder Massacre http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/605a4079da06240792c83st02duc1 Soldiers Held at Gunpoint While Moving Vaccines http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/605a407a93e540792c83st02duc2 Senator on Biden's $3T Plan: 'We Need to Get It Done' http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/605a407a2c86340792c83st02duc3
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Re: Forward Canopy geometry
With all the talk about fuel dumping, tank integrity, and motorsports, I'm very surprised I have not seen or heard of fuel cells or fuel bladders being used in homebuilt composite aircraft.
All of my race cars have used fuel cells with flexible and puncture resistant bladders. Both of the companies I buy from started out in the aircraft industry and I think still serve that industry. Here's a link to a common supplier of high end (expensive) onboard fire suppression systems used in amateur and professional car racing. https://www.lifeline-fire.co.uk/
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Re: Forward Canopy geometry
Mike Steinsland
I've been kicking around an idea because I too have to flip this puppy soon Attached a really really quick sketch of something I've been mulling over using some 3/4 ply I have laying around Make it out of plywood with a flat spot on the top and bottom Have the top tall enough to give you the right height when flipped over I figure a couple of guys could flip it up on its nose and continue on to it's back. Possibly put some locking castor wheels on it to move it around
On Tue., Mar. 23, 2021, 5:30 p.m. Jim Patillo, <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:
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Re: paint----
Mike Steinsland
Now that's a good idea. Definitely stealing that!
On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 6:22 PM Dorothea Keats <dkeats@...> wrote: Thanks for the info on the painting positions. That is what I was --
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