Date   

Re: Resin volume placed on foam

One Sky Dog
 

Rob,

In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive remaining gases into solution in the resin.

Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin. 

On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:

I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes. In an
autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.

And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb small
air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles. Until
tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)

Rob

On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
> Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the outside
> bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
> would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group think and
> does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
> Bruce Crain
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@...>
> To: main@Q-List.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>
> Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
> composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum bagging,
> peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot of noise
> from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>
> If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>
>
>          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>
>
>
>






Re: Jim Patillo's Q-Tour is uploaded to YouTube

 

I got a lot out of it! 


Q1 Fuselage comes up

Eugen Pilarski
 

The fuselage of Q1 is coming up from the foam and the stuff is very sandy :-))

Some picture from the progress .....

Eugen


Re: Airheart

Jay Scheevel
 

Mike, 

Found that master cylinder (original Hurst/Airheart) from my kit. Contact me offline with your rural dog-sled delivery address and I will ship it to you. 

Cheers,
Jay


On Mar 29, 2021, at 7:22 PM, Mike Steinsland <MIKESKUSTOMS@...> wrote:


That's what I found out ....hoping someone like Jay has one they're not going to use otherwise I'll look at some other go kart master cylinder like MCP 

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 8:06 PM Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:
Horde your parts, the factory is no longer making our stuff.

Maybe knockoffs are out there.

Sam 

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 1:36 PM Mike Steinsland <MIKESKUSTOMS@...> wrote:
Hi guys,
I've decided to go with finger brakes on my Q2.
I've got 1 Airheart master cylinder but am going to need another.

Does anyone have one they want to sell or know where I can find one?

Cheers
Mike



--
 
Mike Steinsland


Re: Airheart

Mike Steinsland
 

That's what I found out ....hoping someone like Jay has one they're not going to use otherwise I'll look at some other go kart master cylinder like MCP 

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 8:06 PM Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:
Horde your parts, the factory is no longer making our stuff.

Maybe knockoffs are out there.

Sam 

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 1:36 PM Mike Steinsland <MIKESKUSTOMS@...> wrote:
Hi guys,
I've decided to go with finger brakes on my Q2.
I've got 1 Airheart master cylinder but am going to need another.

Does anyone have one they want to sell or know where I can find one?

Cheers
Mike



--
 
Mike Steinsland


Fire Extinguisher location

Bruce Crain
 

Here is my fire extinguisher location. The newer extinguisher is a bit taller than the original. Just measured twice and cut out a box and matching hole and glassed it in place. Not rocket science.
Bruce

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Re: Airheart

Sam Hoskins
 

Horde your parts, the factory is no longer making our stuff.

Maybe knockoffs are out there.

Sam 

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 1:36 PM Mike Steinsland <MIKESKUSTOMS@...> wrote:
Hi guys,
I've decided to go with finger brakes on my Q2.
I've got 1 Airheart master cylinder but am going to need another.

Does anyone have one they want to sell or know where I can find one?

Cheers
Mike


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

smeshno1@...
 

 Both are used..slight vacuum and pressure are applied using pre-pregs. It's called porosity in the industry lingo. The layups are guiding the mechanic by laser light. They don't have time to mark shit with tape or other.. there are also cutting programs.. Gerber machines are the popular one. So 40 or 50 techs are all working in the Oopma Loompa fashion in a freezing cold room. They also do the peel ply layup as part of the schedule before bag and vacuum.  

 The autoclave cure programming is based on the type of resin (how fast it reaches a rubbery condition from a runny thin viscosity) and the ply schedule (numbers of) and type and shape of core, and if film adhesive is used (almost always is used now). Some plys are also bonding (such as electrical) for lightning strike..imbedded in those carbon fiber pre-preg is thin copper mesh. Use the wrong program and the autoclave will for sure create junk parts. All that previous work is lost effort..and a ton of money tossed out as well. 

 I don't know about spacecraft composites (Charlie does..he worked in that world for years) but aluminum mesh was the standard many years ago in aircraft.  The inherent problems of galvanic corrosion using aluminum mesh for strike path made the copper mesh preferred, and because airplanes in general are considered a reusable machine, they (hopefully) live many decades. Rockets and missiles are (until recently) good for one trip..and weight is SUPER critical to even make the mission possible. Copper is heavier and more expensive but delams are not good in any load bearing structure. 

If your rich you don't care if the airplane costs 30 grand more..better it not break or go POOF! in a lightning strike.  

  In some processes we also used pre autoclave ovens...where vacuum only was used. Possibly, in the home shop environment, this process is usable (no foams...so other than layup only parts, now your into buying core and cutting that messy crap..better to just buy flat panels already cured, just do the edge fill and insert potting yourself). The advantage of the pre-preg is 100% you know the resin is saturated. BUT..it is a PAIN to deal with. Clean room and working with gloved hands ALL the time..and freezers...gotta have them to keep the temp low until it is time to "shake n bake'. Humidity too..you have to control all parts of the work environment.    

 The bottom line is; you are correct that all of this background is only superficially related to what is reasonably possible in the home shop environment, Rob. It is correct that bleeder that is "thirsty" will draw your layup dry.  

 Even if I had the money to build what is required to do these same processes, I doubt my neighbors would appreciate it if they knew I had something like this next door.

   

 Years ago my desk was about 50 paces from this same Autoclave when I was on Contract as R&D Manufacturing Engineering on the Beech Premier program in Plant 3.

 

 It go Boom!!!  Thanks be to God no deaths..but serious injury was still the result. 

 Most of the Starship major parts were cured in this same Autoclave. This one is considered a baby now...think about how big the Airbus and Spirit/Boeing Autoclaves are!! 

Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2021 3:30 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes. In an
autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.

And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb small
air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles. Until
tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)

Rob

On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
> Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the outside
> bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
> would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group think and
> does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
> Bruce Crain
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@...>
> To: main@Q-List.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>
> Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
> composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum bagging,
> peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot of noise
> from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>
> If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>
>
>           Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>
>
>
>






Re: Airheart

Mike Steinsland
 

Great
Let me know

On Mon., Mar. 29, 2021, 2:50 p.m. Jay Scheevel, <jay@...> wrote:

I might have one (36 years new) never used from my original kit. I will have a look at home.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Steinsland
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2021 12:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Airheart

 

Hi guys,
I've decided to go with finger brakes on my Q2.
I've got 1 Airheart master cylinder but am going to need another.

Does anyone have one they want to sell or know where I can find one?

Cheers
Mike


Extinguisher

gbrighton@...
 

Had Smoke Smell in Flt last wk ... Landed ok .. and found Auto Pilot Servo circuit Board Cooked ... luckily stayed within its metal container .. photo from the top shows some of the evidence ... stuff happens !!
Cheers,
Graham


This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Rob de Bie
 

I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes. In an autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.

And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb small air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you 'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles. Until tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)

Rob

On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the outside bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group think and does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
Bruce Crain
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@bellsouth.net>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum bagging, peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot of noise from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>
If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks


Re: Airheart

Jay Scheevel
 

I might have one (36 years new) never used from my original kit. I will have a look at home.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Steinsland
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2021 12:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Airheart

 

Hi guys,
I've decided to go with finger brakes on my Q2.
I've got 1 Airheart master cylinder but am going to need another.

Does anyone have one they want to sell or know where I can find one?

Cheers
Mike


Airheart

Mike Steinsland
 

Hi guys,
I've decided to go with finger brakes on my Q2.
I've got 1 Airheart master cylinder but am going to need another.

Does anyone have one they want to sell or know where I can find one?

Cheers
Mike


Re: Fire Extinguisher

Phil Lankford
 

A couple of pillows, a nice throw and an end table. But it wouldn’t  be complete without a remote switcher caddy. 


On Mar 28, 2021, at 7:42 PM, Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:

Jerry means light weight.  
Bruce


On Mar 28, 2021, at 8:53 PM, Jerry Marstall <jerrylm1986@...> wrote:


I don't know.  One has to put praise upon the Hoskins Hammock interior.  It's so, ah, ah . . . . . .

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 8:41 PM Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:
I think Jim should get the"best interior design" award.
Mike Dwyer

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 4:20 PM Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:


Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space




Re: Fire Extinguisher

Bruce Crain
 

Jerry means light weight.  
Bruce


On Mar 28, 2021, at 8:53 PM, Jerry Marstall <jerrylm1986@...> wrote:


I don't know.  One has to put praise upon the Hoskins Hammock interior.  It's so, ah, ah . . . . . .

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 8:41 PM Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:
I think Jim should get the"best interior design" award.
Mike Dwyer

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 4:20 PM Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:


Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space




Re: Fire Extinguisher

Jerry Marstall
 

I don't know.  One has to put praise upon the Hoskins Hammock interior.  It's so, ah, ah . . . . . .


On Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 8:41 PM Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:
I think Jim should get the"best interior design" award.
Mike Dwyer

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 4:20 PM Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:


Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space


Re: Fire Extinguisher

Mike Dwyer
 

I think Jim should get the"best interior design" award.
Mike Dwyer

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 4:20 PM Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:


Jim
N46JP Q200

Sent from Outer Space


Re: Extinguishers

Martin Skiby
 

That’s a great idea. We put ours in the cubby above the main wing in the Tri-Q and in the Q200 just between the seats on the bulkhead.

Martin

On Mar 28, 2021, at 3:04 PM, gbrighton@skymesh.com.au wrote:

Chris,
We aren't required to carry a F/Extinguisher in Oz .. but a Pilot friend mentioned to me he came across a ... like Mini .. hand held F/Extinguisher .. that sounded good for a/craft use .. its a small hand held unit that is ok for Electrical and Petrol ... has the potential 'early/small' cockpit fire suppression .. with out maybe choking the Cockpit ... he has ordered .. but the suppler is waiting for stock .. im wanting to check it out when he receives his .. but a google search should reveal all ..,
Cheers
Graham

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Dorothea Keats" <dkeats@tbaytel.net>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2021 12:15 AM
To: <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: [Q-List] Extinguishers

Any suggestions for placement of the fire extinguishers? The rule say it needs to be accessible by the pilot with his seat belt on.

My old Cessna it was behind the seat and you could only reach it if you dislocated your shoulder, so the rules may be open for interpretation. My biplane it is between my legs on the floor. Also hard to reach. The only spot I found is on the seat back between the seats. It would have to be less than 10 inches long. I would like to install it behind the seat back in the storage compartment, but I don't know how that would go over.

I don't think I would ever let an extinguisher go in flight. I think I would rather be able to see and breath. Hopefully, I never have to make that choice.

I installed the ELT on the side of the fuselage behind the passenger compartment.

I also installed a master switch that you reach under the middle console on the seat back to turn off and on.

I found a Garmin 327 transponder and encoder. Installed the antenna in the tail cone with a disconnect to remove the tail.

Waiting for my SDS system to finish the engine and panel and almost ready for paint when the weather improves.

Still having fun and staying a little bit sane. Take care------------ Chris



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https://www.avast.com/antivirus






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Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Bruce Crain
 

Nice!  I knew I hadn’t dreamed it but never knew anyone that used sand/shot bags!
Bruce


On Mar 28, 2021, at 11:26 AM, Jerry Marstall <jerrylm1986@...> wrote:


Excellent!

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 12:18 PM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Among of the most valuable of “shop accessories” that I made and one that I ended up using almost everywhere were my “shot bags”. I used them in ways similar to what Vern describes as well as to hold curved parts in place until they cured. The uses are numerous as you can imagine.

 

Here is how they are easily made. Go to your local ammunition “reload” shop and buy a 50 pound bag of bird shot.  Buy some standard “Zip-lock” sandwich bags. Pour 2 pounds of shot into each sandwich bag, press the air out while positioning the shot in the bottom half of the bag and seal the zip-lock, then fold the empty top half over on the lower half. Now wrap the bag in duct tape, making sure to reinforce the ends and corners with overlapping tape.

 

These bags will last many years (a couple decades in my case). If they start to wear, you just add more duct tape. The 2 pound size is almost perfect size for the individual bags and can be used singly or stacked on top of one another or laid edge to edge. You can toss them to the floor and they will not break or leak shot. You can use masking tape to hold them in place, and they will easily pull loose from any cured epoxy that you may have inadvertently set them on top of.

 

Here is a picture of some in use when I was laminating sheets of plywood used to build my overhead C-beam.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2021 9:19 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 This is the idea with caul sheets, which are made of dense high temp resistant rubber and then the parts are made in the autoclave where pressure (can easily exceed theoretical 15 psi permitted by vacuum) is equally applied during the cure. The pre-preg cure is accelerated and the temps taken right up to the heat saturation point so the structure will withstand higher ramp temps in Arizona for instance. 

 

 No post cure required as is done on tool-less composite with wet resin layup. The speed of the transition within the autoclave from a cold sticky pre-preg to a runny resin mix is just as critical as the stipple and squeegee process. Higher pressures also bring into the picture "core crush" problems which solid foams are not prone to. There are effective methods to prevent this problem (which for some reason Nordam had no idea about and they refused to listen to Contractor engineering folks that already solved this at other factory settings like at for instance, Raytheon!!)

 

 The short of it is.. yes.. the sandbag method works and with rubber sheeting on top of the bagging beautiful contour parts within reason can be made. Your getting into a tooling condition tho... but it is very acceptable. Advantage of shot bagging or sand is there are no vacuum leaks to be concerned about. Bleeder cloth are still involved and that is usual because the layup cures to an excellent correct ratio. By careful preparation you'll end up with near perfect parts with zero risk of a leaky tape seal or pump failure at the worst possible time. 

 

Vern     

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 3:40 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the outside bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group think and does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.

Bruce Crain

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700

Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum bagging, peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot of noise from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
If the link doesn't work search YouTube for

Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks

 




Re: Extinguishers

gbrighton@...
 

Chris,
We aren't required to carry a F/Extinguisher in Oz .. but a Pilot friend mentioned to me he came across a ... like Mini .. hand held F/Extinguisher .. that sounded good for a/craft use .. its a small hand held unit that is ok for Electrical and Petrol ... has the potential 'early/small' cockpit fire suppression .. with out maybe choking the Cockpit ... he has ordered .. but the suppler is waiting for stock .. im wanting to check it out when he receives his .. but a google search should reveal all ..,
Cheers
Graham

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Dorothea Keats" <dkeats@tbaytel.net>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2021 12:15 AM
To: <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: [Q-List] Extinguishers

Any suggestions for placement of the fire extinguishers? The rule say it needs to be accessible by the pilot with his seat belt on.

My old Cessna it was behind the seat and you could only reach it if you dislocated your shoulder, so the rules may be open for interpretation. My biplane it is between my legs on the floor. Also hard to reach. The only spot I found is on the seat back between the seats. It would have to be less than 10 inches long. I would like to install it behind the seat back in the storage compartment, but I don't know how that would go over.

I don't think I would ever let an extinguisher go in flight. I think I would rather be able to see and breath. Hopefully, I never have to make that choice.

I installed the ELT on the side of the fuselage behind the passenger compartment.

I also installed a master switch that you reach under the middle console on the seat back to turn off and on.

I found a Garmin 327 transponder and encoder. Installed the antenna in the tail cone with a disconnect to remove the tail.

Waiting for my SDS system to finish the engine and panel and almost ready for paint when the weather improves.

Still having fun and staying a little bit sane. Take care------------ Chris



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