Date   

Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Sam Hoskins
 

Eugene, those look like nice parts. Did you use peel ply? I don't see any. It's very useful and explained in the education section of the plans. 

Sam 


On Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 5:29 AM Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...> wrote:
The missing Picture of Bulkhead 153.7 and AFT Canopy Bulkhead, ups. Sorry.  


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

smeshno1@...
 

 If the crankshaft is in question it should be pretty easy for any decent machine shop to cut a billet for you. The company that Nitrides the crankshafts for Corvair conversions are not outlandishly expensive, not afraid of Experimental aircraft engines (obviuously), and you'd have confidense your crankshaft that would be up to aircraft standard...have them cut all radii to .100". If you have to it is not difficult to clearance cut the rod big ends to accept the wide radii. 

  In my Corvair conversions one of my crankshafts is Standard and was Nitrided from GM.  My other engine I will have to ship to have it cut .010" undersize with the wide radii and then nitrided. Both engines are 2,7L...or..100hp. 

 First thought is the rods should be up to the task. I own an air cooled diesel generator/DC welder that uses a similar basic engine design. tuff as nails! I don't baby it at all and it is always there. Never a hickup.  I've also overhauled many a 1.5/1.6 VW diesel. I had a 1981 VW Caddy that I dropped in a 1.9 turboD (non electronic). The VW's have been successfully used in Europe in Experimental aircraft. The only issues reported is the exhaust odor..pretty ruff on the gizzard in choppy air. Might be a good idea to extend the exhaust pipe further aft.  

 It would be great to chat and to see your powerplant.. JP5 please!! no avgas thank you!!  

 I like titanium also partly because it anodizes very easily and any shade you like..the color stays stable too. Mini turbo..that is too kool!

Vern         


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Robert Cringely <bob@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 3:48 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
I like the idea of using the Briggs & Stratton Vanguard engine, especially since there is so much racing experience and aftermarket parts. I am installing a new engine in my Q1 and going in a similar -- though not identical -- direction. I'm replacing the 22-hp Super-Onan with a pretty generic two-cylinder 870 cc Chinese direct-injection diesel rated for 25 hp at 3600 rpm. I'm turbocharging the engine with a tiny IHI turbo (the smallest sold) and an intercooler. I'm aiming for a turbo-normalized 30 hp, which should give me some really interesting performance numbers at my 17,999-foot cruise altitude.

The engine is all aluminum and air-cooled. I've removed a bunch of extra parts and material like the OEM exhaust, intake, and fuel tank and have the weight down around 55 kg. The new parts are mainly titanium, but that's because we use titanium at my day job and have a welder who does beautiful work. Guessing that the crankshaft is a casting, I'm installing a 1-to-1 belt drive to isolate the prop loads while raising the thrust line. The engine, turbo, and intercooler come from China, the redrive is from India, so the complete powerplant (minus prop) was under $2000 including shipping.

I built the new engine so I can commute to work in San Luis Obispo, CA. My company is right at the airport there and I can even park inside. Presently I fly my Thorp T-18, which takes about 90 minutes for the 222 nm flight from Santa Rosa. I don't expect the Q to go any faster (or slower) than that, but hope to drop the fuel consumption from 10 gallons down to three. Even at 10 gallons it is cheaper to fly than to drive my car, in part because I skip the toll on the Golden Gate Bridge. 


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Rob de Bie
 

Another thanks for explaining the details of the autoclave process. Reading about fires up my composites and materials enthusiasm big time :-) I could probably chat for hours with you guys!

About the 'thirst' of the bleeder, is that mainly governed by its thickness? That at least was my thinking when I ended up with dry laminates. But I had only one type of bleeder.

On the other hand, I've seen vacuum bagging where the whole bleeder got filled up, and it looked to me like the vacuum is then largely last on a large chunk of the part. IIRC, I could pinch the bag with two fingers, and lift it.

An exploding autoclave, damn... I always had a healthy respect for the small autoclave in our lab (2 meters deep, 1.3 meter wide roughly), but a n industrial sized one blowing up/off, brrr...

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 00:30, smeshno1@hotmail.com wrote:
 Both are used..slight vacuum and pressure are applied using pre-pregs. It's called porosity in the industry lingo. The layups are guiding the mechanic by laser light. They don't have time to mark shit with tape or other.. there are also cutting programs.. Gerber machines are the popular one. So 40 or 50 techs are all working in the Oopma Loompa fashion in a freezing cold room. They also do the peel ply layup as part of the schedule before bag and vacuum.
 The autoclave cure programming is based on the type of resin (how fast it reaches a rubbery condition from a runny thin viscosity) and the ply schedule (numbers of) and type and shape of core, and if film adhesive is used (almost always is used now). Some plys are also bonding (such as electrical) for lightning strike..imbedded in those carbon fiber pre-preg is thin copper mesh. Use the wrong program and the autoclave will for sure create junk parts. All that previous work is lost effort..and a ton of money tossed out as well.
 I don't know about spacecraft composites (Charlie does..he worked in that world for years) but aluminum mesh was the standard many years ago in aircraft.  The inherent problems of galvanic corrosion using aluminum mesh for strike path made the copper mesh preferred, and because airplanes in general are considered a reusable machine, they (hopefully) live many decades. Rockets and missiles are (until recently) good for one trip..and weight is SUPER critical to even make the mission possible. Copper is heavier and more expensive but delams are not good in any load bearing structure.
If your rich you don't care if the airplane costs 30 grand more..better it not break or go POOF! in a lightning strike.
  In some processes we also used pre autoclave ovens...where vacuum only was used. Possibly, in the home shop environment, this process is usable (no foams...so other than layup only parts, now your into buying core and cutting that messy crap..better to just buy flat panels already cured, just do the edge fill and insert potting yourself). The advantage of the pre-preg is 100% you know the resin is saturated. BUT..it is a PAIN to deal with. Clean room and working with gloved hands ALL the time..and freezers...gotta have them to keep the temp low until it is time to "shake n bake'. Humidity too..you have to control all parts of the work environment.
 The bottom line is; you are correct that all of this background is only superficially related to what is reasonably possible in the home shop environment, Rob. It is correct that bleeder that is "thirsty" will draw your layup dry.
 Even if I had the money to build what is required to do these same processes, I doubt my neighbors would appreciate it if they knew I had something like this next door.
 Years ago my desk was about 50 paces from this same Autoclave when I was on Contract as R&D Manufacturing Engineering on the Beech Premier program in Plant 3.
 It go Boom!!!  Thanks be to God no deaths..but serious injury was still the result.
 Most of the Starship major parts were cured in this same Autoclave. This one is considered a baby now...think about how big the Airbus and Spirit/Boeing Autoclaves are!!
Vern
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@xs4all.nl>
*Sent:* Monday, March 29, 2021 3:30 PM
*To:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes. In an
autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb small
air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles. Until
tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
Rob
On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the outside
bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group think and
does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
Bruce Crain
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@bellsouth.net>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum bagging,
peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot of noise
from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
<https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
           Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Rob de Bie
 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
Rob,
In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive remaining gases into solution in the resin.
Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
Charlie
My you tube channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@xs4all.nl> wrote:
I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
In an
autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
small
air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
Until
tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
Rob
On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
> Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
outside
> bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
> would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
think and
> does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
> Bruce Crain
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@bellsouth.net <mailto:smgrant@bellsouth.net>>
> To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>
> Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
> composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
bagging,
> peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
of noise
> from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
<https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
> If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>
>
>          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>
>
>
>


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Rob de Bie
 

Eugen, sounds to me like you're doing a thorough job. The only remark I want to make is about the 0.27 MPa foam compressive strength. Some time ago I found a paper that showed how anisotropic XPS can be. You can download it here:


https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Finite-element-modeling-of-compression-behavior-of-Sadek-Fouad/c132caa718183ebfbf4dbbd08033f6e04fcbfe29

The authors measured Young's moduli of 6, 17 and 37 GPa, and compressive strengths of 0.18, 0.35 and 0.73 MPa for different directions!! I can see that the cells are oriented, but I never expected such extreme anisotropic behavior. It woke me up! I'm not saying that PVC or PU foam is equally anisotropic, but beware of this aspect. BTW, the Young's modulus is important for the buckling strength of the skin laminated on it, that's why I listed it first.

Here's another paper on XPS foam, that found far less extreme differences:


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338241040_Measurement_of_the_Shear_Properties_of_Extruded_Polystyrene_Foam_by_In-Plane_Shear_and_Asymmetric_Four-Point_Bending_Tests

I did not compare the methods sufficiently to say whether errors were made, that would explain the big differences. It screams for doing some material tests yourself :-)

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 22:08, Eugen Pilarski wrote:
Hi @all,
thanks for the hint about the corners and the necessary of form it with a sanding block. This area is manufactured exactly according to the plans, it’s listed in Page 7-6 Contouring, especially the section A-A, please find below a screen shot.
Before the first layer will place on the fuselage all areas need to form with a sanding block for sure, like the Quickie construction plans indicate, the picture you received just show an intermediate state. Unfortunately, pictures from that time are very rare and scarce, and 40 years have passed since the first Q1 was built.
The foam for the Fuselage I use has a compressive strength of 0,27 Mpa or 2900 hPa, with my Vacuum bag I will not go lower then 500 hPa (Standard is 1013hPa). After I did a test piece with 3 layers on each side with the Vacuum bag go down to 200 hPa (Standar is 1013hPa), they was no issue with the foam, no deformation or damage and good bonding with the micro to the foam.
I did a short crossover of different foam and suppliers like Aircraft Spruce, Wicks and other European suppliers and choice the best one for my application. It is Airex C70.55 for Bulkheads, Bauder E33 for fuselage and Korff Styrofoam XPS billet for wing/Canard, all stuff comes from europe.  I have of course considered the recommendations from the LongEz and Cozy corner and followed them.  Please find below my investigation about Foam, glass and resin: https://aerobase.weebly.com/q1-bill-of-material---source--spec.html <https://aerobase.weebly.com/q1-bill-of-material---source--spec.html>
The resin is a MGS L385 and H386 with aerospace approval, glass will be interglass with aerospace approval too. From my point of view, you have as an homebuilder to be on the safe side with the material and not save money at the wrong end, that’s the reason why I spend’s minimum 12 month to investigate the foam/glass/resin challenge. Unfortunately, I only know one Q1 and one LongEz builder in Europe personally and all the others unfortunately only via email/WebConf/Facebook. Here, too, those with direct building experience in europe of the patterns mentioned above are very rare or have already passed away.
So let's keep the Quickie story alive and I welcome any comments, advice and hints from the community.
The other question was about the engine for the Q1 and it will be a B&S Vanguard 679cc with standard 23hp include a belt drive, but with some modifications :-)
Best regards from Germany
Eugen
P.S.: Next week I'm meeting with people from the boat manufacturing sector, the resin and glass fibre gods :-)  Maybe I can learn something from them, because they have really big vacuum bags :-)

Am 30.03.2021 um 18:16 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com <mailto:jay@scheevel.com>>:

Eugen,

Everyone is right about the sharp corners and the cloth wrapping them.
Guidelines on how much rounding of the corners is needed can be found here:
http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/RAF_composite_education_section_from_Q2Pl <http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/RAF_composite_education_section_from_Q2Pl>
ans.pdf

Also, the best way to round the corners in a very smooth way is to use a
spare piece of the foam as a sanding block. The foam will grind away on both
the block and the piece you are sanding and make a very nice curve (lots of
foam dust, so have a vacuum cleaner on hand).

Cheers,
Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob de Bie
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 6:06 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up

Very nice work indeed!! But I agree with Keith: the sharp corners are far
from optimal. Your light vacuum will make sure that the glass fiber cloth
will conform, so that's not the problem. But if you have a multiple ply
laminate laid over a small radius, you will get high out-of-plane stresses
if a bending moment is applied. Now whether there is a lot of bending moment
in the fuselage skins, I don't know, they are probably secondary effects.
But I would nevertheless increase the radius quite a bit.

As an example of out-of-plane stresses: imagine laminating a 90 angle with
10 cm / 4 inch legs, with
3 or 4 layers. If you would bend it so the angle gets smaller, the
out-of-plane stresses will push the laminate plies against each other - no
problem. But if you bend it so the angle gets bigger, the sign changes, and
the out-of-plane stresses want to delaminate. Now do this same experiment
with different radii, and you will see that the larger the radius, the
stronger the specimen will be.

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 13:43, Keith Welsh wrote:
Hi Eugen,
Very nice photos.
The only comment I might have is in regards to the contour edges.
From the  photos they look kinda sharp.  If I remember right the glass
cloth likes rounded edges.
It doesn't like making sharp turns.  The only places I remember having
sharp turns is where glass
tapes were used for bulkheads and micro was used in the corners.
But that was a long time ago too.
Those currently building may have a better view of that.
Just my two cents.
Keith
N494K

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Eugen Pilarski" <interbus@web.de>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:19:05 +0200

The fuselage of Q1 is coming up from the foam and the stuff is very sandy
:-))

Some picture from the progress .....

Eugen
















Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Robert Cringely
 

I like the idea of using the Briggs & Stratton Vanguard engine, especially since there is so much racing experience and aftermarket parts. I am installing a new engine in my Q1 and going in a similar -- though not identical -- direction. I'm replacing the 22-hp Super-Onan with a pretty generic two-cylinder 870 cc Chinese direct-injection diesel rated for 25 hp at 3600 rpm. I'm turbocharging the engine with a tiny IHI turbo (the smallest sold) and an intercooler. I'm aiming for a turbo-normalized 30 hp, which should give me some really interesting performance numbers at my 17,999-foot cruise altitude.

The engine is all aluminum and air-cooled. I've removed a bunch of extra parts and material like the OEM exhaust, intake, and fuel tank and have the weight down around 55 kg. The new parts are mainly titanium, but that's because we use titanium at my day job and have a welder who does beautiful work. Guessing that the crankshaft is a casting, I'm installing a 1-to-1 belt drive to isolate the prop loads while raising the thrust line. The engine, turbo, and intercooler come from China, the redrive is from India, so the complete powerplant (minus prop) was under $2000 including shipping.

I built the new engine so I can commute to work in San Luis Obispo, CA. My company is right at the airport there and I can even park inside. Presently I fly my Thorp T-18, which takes about 90 minutes for the 222 nm flight from Santa Rosa. I don't expect the Q to go any faster (or slower) than that, but hope to drop the fuel consumption from 10 gallons down to three. Even at 10 gallons it is cheaper to fly than to drive my car, in part because I skip the toll on the Golden Gate Bridge. 


Re: Windy pilot's report.

Corbin
 

Solid numbers and sounds like a great flight!  

Corbin

On Mar 30, 2021, at 11:49 AM, Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:


The mains are fine, the rudder is fine. For me, the root cause is speed control. These slick little birds want to go fast. My main challenge is speed management. 

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 8:28 AM Brian Larick <blarick@...> wrote:
Sam, with your updates what makes the Q such a challenging bird still...Is the root cause the width of the mains?  Or is it also control authority with the rudder?  Some combination?    

Brian

On Mar 30, 2021, at 09:02, Anthony P <solarant@...> wrote:

By "new", do you mean anyone with less than 2000 hrs?  :)

Glad you had fun and were able to demonstrate your skills.


<Crosswind.jpg>


--

Corbin 
N121CG


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Eugen Pilarski
 

Hi @all,

thanks for the hint about the corners and the necessary of form it with a sanding block. This area is manufactured exactly according to the plans, it’s listed in Page 7-6 Contouring, especially the section A-A, please find below a screen shot. 

Before the first layer will place on the fuselage all areas need to form with a sanding block for sure, like the Quickie construction plans indicate, the picture you received just show an intermediate state. Unfortunately, pictures from that time are very rare and scarce, and 40 years have passed since the first Q1 was built.

The foam for the Fuselage I use has a compressive strength of 0,27 Mpa or 2900 hPa, with my Vacuum bag I will not go lower then 500 hPa (Standard is 1013hPa). After I did a test piece with 3 layers on each side with the Vacuum bag go down to 200 hPa (Standar is 1013hPa), they was no issue with the foam, no deformation or damage and good bonding with the micro to the foam.

I did a short crossover of different foam and suppliers like Aircraft Spruce, Wicks and other European suppliers and choice the best one for my application. It is Airex C70.55 for Bulkheads, Bauder E33 for fuselage and Korff Styrofoam XPS billet for wing/Canard, all stuff comes from europe.  I have of course considered the recommendations from the LongEz and Cozy corner and followed them.  Please find below my investigation about Foam, glass and resin: https://aerobase.weebly.com/q1-bill-of-material---source--spec.html

The resin is a MGS L385 and H386 with aerospace approval, glass will be interglass with aerospace approval too. From my point of view, you have as an homebuilder to be on the safe side with the material and not save money at the wrong end, that’s the reason why I spend’s minimum 12 month to investigate the foam/glass/resin challenge. Unfortunately, I only know one Q1 and one LongEz builder in Europe personally and all the others unfortunately only via email/WebConf/Facebook. Here, too, those with direct building experience in europe of the patterns mentioned above are very rare or have already passed away. 

So let's keep the Quickie story alive and I welcome any comments, advice and hints from the community. 

The other question was about the engine for the Q1 and it will be a B&S Vanguard 679cc with standard 23hp include a belt drive, but with some modifications :-) 

Best regards from Germany

Eugen

P.S.: Next week I'm meeting with people from the boat manufacturing sector, the resin and glass fibre gods :-)  Maybe I can learn something from them, because they have really big vacuum bags :-) 


Am 30.03.2021 um 18:16 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>:

Eugen,

Everyone is right about the sharp corners and the cloth wrapping them.
Guidelines on how much rounding of the corners is needed can be found here:
http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/RAF_composite_education_section_from_Q2Pl
ans.pdf

Also, the best way to round the corners in a very smooth way is to use a
spare piece of the foam as a sanding block. The foam will grind away on both
the block and the piece you are sanding and make a very nice curve (lots of
foam dust, so have a vacuum cleaner on hand).

Cheers,
Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob de Bie
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 6:06 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up

Very nice work indeed!! But I agree with Keith: the sharp corners are far
from optimal. Your light vacuum will make sure that the glass fiber cloth
will conform, so that's not the problem. But if you have a multiple ply
laminate laid over a small radius, you will get high out-of-plane stresses
if a bending moment is applied. Now whether there is a lot of bending moment
in the fuselage skins, I don't know, they are probably secondary effects.
But I would nevertheless increase the radius quite a bit.

As an example of out-of-plane stresses: imagine laminating a 90 angle with
10 cm / 4 inch legs, with
3 or 4 layers. If you would bend it so the angle gets smaller, the
out-of-plane stresses will push the laminate plies against each other - no
problem. But if you bend it so the angle gets bigger, the sign changes, and
the out-of-plane stresses want to delaminate. Now do this same experiment
with different radii, and you will see that the larger the radius, the
stronger the specimen will be.

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 13:43, Keith Welsh wrote:
Hi Eugen,
Very nice photos.
The only comment I might have is in regards to the contour edges.
From the  photos they look kinda sharp.  If I remember right the glass
cloth likes rounded edges.
It doesn't like making sharp turns.  The only places I remember having
sharp turns is where glass
tapes were used for bulkheads and micro was used in the corners.
But that was a long time ago too.
Those currently building may have a better view of that.
Just my two cents.
Keith
N494K

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Eugen Pilarski" <interbus@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:19:05 +0200

The fuselage of Q1 is coming up from the foam and the stuff is very sandy
:-))

Some picture from the progress .....

Eugen



















Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

smeshno1@...
 

 A Vanguard V, Briggs and Stratton. They are used in auto racing....with of course modifications to the innards.

This is Briggs & Stratton Slingshot Racing
www.youtube.com


 

 I've also seen these run in micro drag racing...pushing the limits of the internals but that is the nature of 
drag racing. Circle track looking to endurance. The racer telling how little has to be done to keep on the
track for an entire season is remarkable. Valve springs and oil changes after 60 hard running races!  


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 9:32 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
Nice!  What engine will you use?  Yep you will get a lot of sanding in the process!  
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Eugen Pilarski" <interbus@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:19:05 +0200

The fuselage of Q1 is coming up from the foam and the stuff is very sandy :-))

Some picture from the progress .....

Eugen







Re: Windy pilot's report.

Sam Hoskins
 

The mains are fine, the rudder is fine. For me, the root cause is speed control. These slick little birds want to go fast. My main challenge is speed management. 


On Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 8:28 AM Brian Larick <blarick@...> wrote:
Sam, with your updates what makes the Q such a challenging bird still...Is the root cause the width of the mains?  Or is it also control authority with the rudder?  Some combination?    

Brian

On Mar 30, 2021, at 09:02, Anthony P <solarant@...> wrote:

By "new", do you mean anyone with less than 2000 hrs?  :)

Glad you had fun and were able to demonstrate your skills.


<Crosswind.jpg>


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Jay Scheevel
 

Eugen,

Everyone is right about the sharp corners and the cloth wrapping them.
Guidelines on how much rounding of the corners is needed can be found here:
http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/RAF_composite_education_section_from_Q2Pl
ans.pdf

Also, the best way to round the corners in a very smooth way is to use a
spare piece of the foam as a sanding block. The foam will grind away on both
the block and the piece you are sanding and make a very nice curve (lots of
foam dust, so have a vacuum cleaner on hand).

Cheers,
Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rob de Bie
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 6:06 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up

Very nice work indeed!! But I agree with Keith: the sharp corners are far
from optimal. Your light vacuum will make sure that the glass fiber cloth
will conform, so that's not the problem. But if you have a multiple ply
laminate laid over a small radius, you will get high out-of-plane stresses
if a bending moment is applied. Now whether there is a lot of bending moment
in the fuselage skins, I don't know, they are probably secondary effects.
But I would nevertheless increase the radius quite a bit.

As an example of out-of-plane stresses: imagine laminating a 90 angle with
10 cm / 4 inch legs, with
3 or 4 layers. If you would bend it so the angle gets smaller, the
out-of-plane stresses will push the laminate plies against each other - no
problem. But if you bend it so the angle gets bigger, the sign changes, and
the out-of-plane stresses want to delaminate. Now do this same experiment
with different radii, and you will see that the larger the radius, the
stronger the specimen will be.

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 13:43, Keith Welsh wrote:
Hi Eugen,
Very nice photos.
The only comment I might have is in regards to the contour edges.
From the  photos they look kinda sharp.  If I remember right the glass
cloth likes rounded edges.
It doesn't like making sharp turns.  The only places I remember having
sharp turns is where glass
tapes were used for bulkheads and micro was used in the corners.
But that was a long time ago too.
Those currently building may have a better view of that.
Just my two cents.
Keith
N494K

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Eugen Pilarski" <interbus@web.de>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:19:05 +0200

The fuselage of Q1 is coming up from the foam and the stuff is very sandy
:-))

Some picture from the progress .....

Eugen







Re: Windy pilot's report.

Jay Scheevel
 

Great report, Sam.

 

Cute, smiling granddaughter makes everyone smile! Glad your cranial flight controller was in good shape and you now have those additional points of reference to add to the algorithm.

 

BTW, Way back when, I went to the Big U in “Shampoo-Banana” and I passed up the opportunity to get a private through the Institute of Aviation for only $600!  Guess who did not have $600 to spare 😉

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 6:25 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Windy pilot's report.

 

Please forgive me for mixing up knots & mph here, it’s just the way I roll. I generally use mph for airspeeds and knots for navigation and all that “official” stuff. It works for me

 

Yesterday, I took a little 150 mile hop to see my daughter, Jen and granddaughter Mackenzie.  The winds at my departure, KMDH, were pretty much straight out of the south and I had a nice tailwind at 3,500 feet.  True airspeed of about 180 mph. My GPS was showing a ground speed of 185 kts so I was really clipping along. When I got to Champaign, KCMI, things were getting interesting.  The ATIS said the winds were 190 degrees, 18 kts, gusting to 22. They were using runway 14L, so that gave me a hefty 80 degree crossswind. Yikes! I wasn’t sure if I was able to manage this and was fully prepared to just head back home if warranted. My final approach was fast, about 105 mph. I experimented with a slip to keep the nose pointed straight but the right wing was so low I didn't think that was going to work so I just crabbed all the way down until I straightened out for touchdown. I was probably still doing between 95 & 100 mph crossing the numbers, but somehow I was able to pull it off and keep it on the runway.  Whew!

 

A couple of hours later, now the departure seemed intimidating.  The wind had really picked up and was now 170 degrees at 18 kts, gusting to 27 and they were using runway 22 for departures, giving 50 degrees of xwind.

 

My Q-200 has a nice strong engine and I was able to accelerate quickly.  It’s funny what goes through your mind, but half way through the takeoff roll  I was thinking “New Quickie pilots shouldn’t do this”. Understatement. I held it down as long as I could, then quickly brought back the stick back so I could leave the ground without any skidding.  All went well. Of course, now I paid the headwind penalty on the way home and my ground-speed dropped to 133 kts.

 

So, my trip north took 55 minutes and coming back was an hour and 15. Back at Carbondale, the winds were a balmy 190 kts at 18-22, landing on 18L and everything was relatively smooth.

 

It was a good day.

Sam Hoskins
Q-200 ~2,070 hours


Re: Windy pilot's report.

Bruce Crain
 

Oh she's a cutie for sure Sammy!  Looks especially happy to see  you to!  Bet  you had a great time!
 
Nice! 185 ground speed!  And oh well 133 coming home but you got to enjoy you Q200 for a little bit longer!  Hope everything is working well on the Q200!  Did you get bounced around with turbulence in cruise?
 
Say on a side note Alan Thayer put us in the Central States Newsletter for FOD!  Maybe we will start to see larger interest and can meet some new folks with flying pickle forks!  Long ways out but I am sooo looking forward to Field Of Dreams!
 
Bruce and Honey Lamb

Please note: message attached

From: "Sam Hoskins" <sam.hoskins@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Windy pilot's report.
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 05:25:07 -0700




Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Bruce Crain
 

Charlie you're starting to sound like Jimmeh also!  Getting them done and keeping them simple and to plans will get you in the air sooner.  I flying them is sweeter than building.  No really!
Bruce


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "One Sky Dog via groups.io" <Oneskydog@...>
To: <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 09:57:50 +0000 (UTC)

Rob,

 
In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive remaining gases into solution in the resin.
 
Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin. 


Charlie


On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:

I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes. In an
autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.

And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb small
air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles. Until
tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)

Rob

On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
> Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the outside
> bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
> would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group think and
> does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
> Bruce Crain
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------
> From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@...>
> To: main@Q-List.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>
> Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
> composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum bagging,
> peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot of noise
> from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>
> If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>
>
>          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>
>
>
>








Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Bruce Crain
 

Nice!  What engine will you use?  Yep you will get a lot of sanding in the process!  
Bruce


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Eugen Pilarski" <interbus@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:19:05 +0200

The fuselage of Q1 is coming up from the foam and the stuff is very sandy :-))

Some picture from the progress .....

Eugen







Re: Windy pilot's report.

Jerry Marstall
 

Great picture. J


On Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 8:25 AM Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:
Please forgive me for mixing up knots & mph here, it’s just the way I roll. I generally use mph for airspeeds and knots for navigation and all that “official” stuff. It works for me.
 
Yesterday, I took a little 150 mile hop to see my daughter, Jen and granddaughter Mackenzie.  The winds at my departure, KMDH, were pretty much straight out of the south and I had a nice tailwind at 3,500 feet.  True airspeed of about 180 mph. My GPS was showing a ground speed of 185 kts so I was really clipping along. When I got to Champaign, KCMI, things were getting interesting.  The ATIS said the winds were 190 degrees, 18 kts, gusting to 22. They were using runway 14L, so that gave me a hefty 80 degree crossswind. Yikes! I wasn’t sure if I was able to manage this and was fully prepared to just head back home if warranted. My final approach was fast, about 105 mph. I experimented with a slip to keep the nose pointed straight but the right wing was so low I didn't think that was going to work so I just crabbed all the way down until I straightened out for touchdown. I was probably still doing between 95 & 100 mph crossing the numbers, but somehow I was able to pull it off and keep it on the runway.  Whew!
 
A couple of hours later, now the departure seemed intimidating.  The wind had really picked up and was now 170 degrees at 18 kts, gusting to 27 and they were using runway 22 for departures, giving 50 degrees of xwind.
 
My Q-200 has a nice strong engine and I was able to accelerate quickly.  It’s funny what goes through your mind, but half way through the takeoff roll  I was thinking “New Quickie pilots shouldn’t do this”. Understatement. I held it down as long as I could, then quickly brought back the stick back so I could leave the ground without any skidding.  All went well. Of course, now I paid the headwind penalty on the way home and my ground-speed dropped to 133 kts.
 
So, my trip north took 55 minutes and coming back was an hour and 15. Back at Carbondale, the winds were a balmy 190 kts at 18-22, landing on 18L and everything was relatively smooth.
 
It was a good day.

Sam Hoskins
Q-200 ~2,070 hours


Re: Windy pilot's report.

Brian Larick
 

Sam, with your updates what makes the Q such a challenging bird still...Is the root cause the width of the mains?  Or is it also control authority with the rudder?  Some combination?    

Brian

On Mar 30, 2021, at 09:02, Anthony P <solarant@...> wrote:

By "new", do you mean anyone with less than 2000 hrs?  :)

Glad you had fun and were able to demonstrate your skills.


<Crosswind.jpg>


Re: Windy pilot's report.

Anthony P
 

By "new", do you mean anyone with less than 2000 hrs?  :)

Glad you had fun and were able to demonstrate your skills.



Re: Windy pilot's report.

Richard Thomson
 

Great report Sam, what a cool Grandad !!

You certainly have a few hours experience.

Thanks.

Rich T.


On 30/03/2021 13:25, Sam Hoskins wrote:
Please forgive me for mixing up knots & mph here, it’s just the way I roll. I generally use mph for airspeeds and knots for navigation and all that “official” stuff. It works for me.
 
Yesterday, I took a little 150 mile hop to see my daughter, Jen and granddaughter Mackenzie.  The winds at my departure, KMDH, were pretty much straight out of the south and I had a nice tailwind at 3,500 feet.  True airspeed of about 180 mph. My GPS was showing a ground speed of 185 kts so I was really clipping along. When I got to Champaign, KCMI, things were getting interesting.  The ATIS said the winds were 190 degrees, 18 kts, gusting to 22. They were using runway 14L, so that gave me a hefty 80 degree crossswind. Yikes! I wasn’t sure if I was able to manage this and was fully prepared to just head back home if warranted. My final approach was fast, about 105 mph. I experimented with a slip to keep the nose pointed straight but the right wing was so low I didn't think that was going to work so I just crabbed all the way down until I straightened out for touchdown. I was probably still doing between 95 & 100 mph crossing the numbers, but somehow I was able to pull it off and keep it on the runway.  Whew!
 
A couple of hours later, now the departure seemed intimidating.  The wind had really picked up and was now 170 degrees at 18 kts, gusting to 27 and they were using runway 22 for departures, giving 50 degrees of xwind.
 
My Q-200 has a nice strong engine and I was able to accelerate quickly.  It’s funny what goes through your mind, but half way through the takeoff roll  I was thinking “New Quickie pilots shouldn’t do this”. Understatement. I held it down as long as I could, then quickly brought back the stick back so I could leave the ground without any skidding.  All went well. Of course, now I paid the headwind penalty on the way home and my ground-speed dropped to 133 kts.
 
So, my trip north took 55 minutes and coming back was an hour and 15. Back at Carbondale, the winds were a balmy 190 kts at 18-22, landing on 18L and everything was relatively smooth.
 
It was a good day.

Sam Hoskins
Q-200 ~2,070 hours


Windy pilot's report.

Sam Hoskins
 

Please forgive me for mixing up knots & mph here, it’s just the way I roll. I generally use mph for airspeeds and knots for navigation and all that “official” stuff. It works for me.
 
Yesterday, I took a little 150 mile hop to see my daughter, Jen and granddaughter Mackenzie.  The winds at my departure, KMDH, were pretty much straight out of the south and I had a nice tailwind at 3,500 feet.  True airspeed of about 180 mph. My GPS was showing a ground speed of 185 kts so I was really clipping along. When I got to Champaign, KCMI, things were getting interesting.  The ATIS said the winds were 190 degrees, 18 kts, gusting to 22. They were using runway 14L, so that gave me a hefty 80 degree crossswind. Yikes! I wasn’t sure if I was able to manage this and was fully prepared to just head back home if warranted. My final approach was fast, about 105 mph. I experimented with a slip to keep the nose pointed straight but the right wing was so low I didn't think that was going to work so I just crabbed all the way down until I straightened out for touchdown. I was probably still doing between 95 & 100 mph crossing the numbers, but somehow I was able to pull it off and keep it on the runway.  Whew!
 
A couple of hours later, now the departure seemed intimidating.  The wind had really picked up and was now 170 degrees at 18 kts, gusting to 27 and they were using runway 22 for departures, giving 50 degrees of xwind.
 
My Q-200 has a nice strong engine and I was able to accelerate quickly.  It’s funny what goes through your mind, but half way through the takeoff roll  I was thinking “New Quickie pilots shouldn’t do this”. Understatement. I held it down as long as I could, then quickly brought back the stick back so I could leave the ground without any skidding.  All went well. Of course, now I paid the headwind penalty on the way home and my ground-speed dropped to 133 kts.
 
So, my trip north took 55 minutes and coming back was an hour and 15. Back at Carbondale, the winds were a balmy 190 kts at 18-22, landing on 18L and everything was relatively smooth.
 
It was a good day.

Sam Hoskins
Q-200 ~2,070 hours

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