Date   

Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Adam hied
 

Hi Terry,

I have a 360 camera, the GoPro max. So it just records everything and I can go into the video later and “reframe” it anyway i want. It’s really easy to use .

Cordially,

Adam Hied

www.adamhied.com - dragonfly experimental airplane blog 

On Mar 31, 2021, at 11:44 PM, Terry Adams <terrywadams@...> wrote:

 Adam,
I would like to know how you rotate the video camera during your videos.  I didn't see you manipulate any controls, and I like the smooth rotation.

Terry
N41521

On 3/31/2021 7:07 AM, Adam hied wrote:
I’m based at Sebastian, and I’ve been talking to Riley swing, he said he’s hoping to be flying it soon.

Cordially,

Adam Hied

www.adamhied.com - dragonfly experimental airplane blog 

On Mar 31, 2021, at 8:26 AM, Cody <cody.craig1985@...> wrote:


Wasn't this aircraft on barnstormers back in 2019?

-- 
Communication ink and paper free


Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Terry Adams
 

Adam,
I would like to know how you rotate the video camera during your videos.  I didn't see you manipulate any controls, and I like the smooth rotation.

Terry
N41521

On 3/31/2021 7:07 AM, Adam hied wrote:
I’m based at Sebastian, and I’ve been talking to Riley swing, he said he’s hoping to be flying it soon.

Cordially,

Adam Hied

www.adamhied.com - dragonfly experimental airplane blog 

On Mar 31, 2021, at 8:26 AM, Cody <cody.craig1985@...> wrote:


Wasn't this aircraft on barnstormers back in 2019?

-- 
Communication ink and paper free


Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Bruce Crain
 

The Swings are the best!  And they know that death isn't the end of it.  After talking with you at Velocity I know that you know you will see Sonia again.
Bruce


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q200 at Velocity Factory
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 20:36:07 -0400

Yes. We lost her last August. We had 7 wonderful years.
 
Clarification 
The Swing family:
Duane father of
Brian Scott (known as Scott) father of
Riley, Wesley and their daughter's name slips my memory.
I worked for the Swings 2005-2016.  They are great people and good friends. 

Sonia (1953-2020) & Rick

 

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 6:33 PM Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I see Sonia (1953-2020) I am sorry Rick was she your wife?  Loves and blessings!
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q200 at Velocity Factory
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 13:57:37 -0400

Riley and Wesley are Scott's sons.

Sonia (1953-2020) & Rick

 







Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Rick Hole
 

Yes. We lost her last August. We had 7 wonderful years.

Clarification 
The Swing family:
Duane father of
Brian Scott (known as Scott) father of
Riley, Wesley and their daughter's name slips my memory.
I worked for the Swings 2005-2016.  They are great people and good friends. 

Sonia (1953-2020) & Rick


On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 6:33 PM Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I see Sonia (1953-2020) I am sorry Rick was she your wife?  Loves and blessings!
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q200 at Velocity Factory
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 13:57:37 -0400

Riley and Wesley are Scott's sons.

Sonia (1953-2020) & Rick

 





Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Frankenbird Vern
 

 The museum at Huntsville is really good. I went there in 1967..I bet they've added a bit to the exhibits since then!. Gggg.

 My Dad was M.E. on the Apollo/Saturn V.  I still remember when they test fired the engine (one/only one).    


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:49 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
Jay I have read about it but have not seen it. You can you tube how to make it at home for the chemists.

Speaking of NASA and Hercules here is the full stack but I do not know where it is.


Inline image


Maybe Huntsville 

Charlie




On Wednesday, March 31, 2021, 4:41 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Just answered my own question by poking around on the web. Here is a whole page on NASA about it. Looks like it has come a long way since I saw it. Probably Charlie has done something with it at some point in his career.

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/aerogels.html

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 5:13 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Never heard of that one.. what is it?

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:07 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Hey Vern,

 

Back in the early 90’s I got to handle a piece of aerogel. This was a unique thing in that it had significant strength (not quite as strong as styrofoam), but almost no weight. My mind immediately started thinking about use as a core material.

 

In any case, I never hear about it anymore, so I don’t know what happened to that stuff. Seems like it would have had some application in spacecraft.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:17 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Plastic airplane geeks are naturally drawn to the Quickies. But I agree I have had the good 

fortune to learn from many at many different places in aviation, Eugen. That is not to 

say that real advancement is only in multi billion dollar environments. Not at all!  I strongly

feel the guy out in his Shop is a special part of aviation.   

 

 There are several people I wished I had been able to meet and learn from but cannot now since 

they are "gone West" as we pilots say. But I am grateful, and not one day in aviation has

passed I didn't learn something new.    

 

 The Tandem Wing design are odd looking airplanes, and it fits with our personalities I suppose. 😊 

 

 Charlie..good to read your Tri Pacer is back on track.  

 

 What I was thinking in space manufacturing are the possibilities in materials and processes 

not possible on terra firma (foam steel for instance..)  I dunno what is next..there are probably 

many innovations if we can just get established outside of gravity. 

 

 From now on the younger folks are going to have to work out all kinds of problems in 

space travel and colonization. I hope the spirit of innovation we had when we were 

younger is well and alive for the grads now moving into the various fields.      

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:13 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Wow. Great story and pictures!! Did not think that so many composite experts are here in this group. Great. 

 

When I look at what you have worked with in your career in the field of composites, especially with these large furnaces, I feel really small with my little vacuum bag and the electric blankets.  :-))  I think the Q1 would fit entirely in one of these ovens and many more......

 

Eugen 

 

Am 31.03.2021 um 02:01 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>:

 

That’s a cool discovery, Charlie. Also, glad you are going to get the “Milk Stool” back in the air soon. 

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Vern,

 

You cannot use a vacuum bag for a repair on orbit. No consolidation without a column of air pushing on it. We discussed on orbit composite repairs with Thiokol and Scotty Horowitz after the second shuttle loss. The silicon carbide / carbon leading edge had a hole in it from ice impact. It would take a lot of development but Space shuttle is gone.

 

 

<image001.jpg>

 

I found two of my composite Filament Wound Case segments in Tucson a couple of weeks ago while visiting the museum. The forward 3 segments are 1/2” D6AC steel but the back two are what we produced at Hercules 1985-1986 RIP Challenger.


Charlie

 

P.S. found a replacement engine for the Tri-Pacer and working on installing.

 

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 3:28 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment. Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!   

 

 Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course. 

 

 As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those events to happen.

 

 Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen would be wealthy beyond imagination.     

 

Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam 

 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal 
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the 
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move 
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive 
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
> 
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
> 
> 
> Charlie
> 
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg 
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
> 
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
> 
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
> 
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
> 
>     Rob
> 
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


 


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Frankenbird Vern
 

 The X-ray shows voids and in honeycomb, delams in detail. One can also clearly see core displacement. Ultrasound is a bit like
magnaflux steel inspection. There can be some interpretation of the results..that said, Ultrasound is the industry standard Cody..but ironically when at Nordam we were expecting to be forced into X-ray over both Thermography and Ultrasound we discovered flaws not revealed before.

 We inspected parts already approved by Thermography and Ultrasound..and then could clearly see in X-ray what was not 
obvious by the other methods. Only in two parts that I remember did that discovery force MRB action. None were scrap disposition. I was part of the M.E. team working MRB there.     


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Cody <cody.craig1985@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:51 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
Are we referring to the penetration factor? Wouldn't ultrasound be the most reliable since the substrate is non-metallic and not uniform in the first place? Unless it's honeycomb. 

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 5:46 PM <smeshno1@...> wrote:
 You bring up good point, Rob.  The $200 million dollar question. What is the best Inspection? 
Thermography? Water Ultrasound? X-ray? Nordam found out the hard way that dealing with Gulfstream
can cost a lot...bankruptcy of an entire division...when that question is not fully agreed on first (IN WRITING).  

 For us the reliable old Silver Dollar ring is good enough..but the on-going battle for Inspection has yet to be
fully resolved. Yet another place where fortunes can be made. Whomever invents the final standard for composite
construction Inspection will live very comfortably.

Vern   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
>
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
>
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
>
>
> Charlie
>
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
>
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
>
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
>
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
>
>     Rob
>
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>
>
>
>
>
>






Re: Resin volume placed on foam

One Sky Dog
 

Jay I have read about it but have not seen it. You can you tube how to make it at home for the chemists.

Speaking of NASA and Hercules here is the full stack but I do not know where it is.


Inline image


Maybe Huntsville 

On Wednesday, March 31, 2021, 4:41 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Just answered my own question by poking around on the web. Here is a whole page on NASA about it. Looks like it has come a long way since I saw it. Probably Charlie has done something with it at some point in his career.

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/aerogels.html

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 5:13 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Never heard of that one.. what is it?

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:07 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Hey Vern,

 

Back in the early 90’s I got to handle a piece of aerogel. This was a unique thing in that it had significant strength (not quite as strong as styrofoam), but almost no weight. My mind immediately started thinking about use as a core material.

 

In any case, I never hear about it anymore, so I don’t know what happened to that stuff. Seems like it would have had some application in spacecraft.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:17 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Plastic airplane geeks are naturally drawn to the Quickies. But I agree I have had the good 

fortune to learn from many at many different places in aviation, Eugen. That is not to 

say that real advancement is only in multi billion dollar environments. Not at all!  I strongly

feel the guy out in his Shop is a special part of aviation.   

 

 There are several people I wished I had been able to meet and learn from but cannot now since 

they are "gone West" as we pilots say. But I am grateful, and not one day in aviation has

passed I didn't learn something new.    

 

 The Tandem Wing design are odd looking airplanes, and it fits with our personalities I suppose. 😊 

 

 Charlie..good to read your Tri Pacer is back on track.  

 

 What I was thinking in space manufacturing are the possibilities in materials and processes 

not possible on terra firma (foam steel for instance..)  I dunno what is next..there are probably 

many innovations if we can just get established outside of gravity. 

 

 From now on the younger folks are going to have to work out all kinds of problems in 

space travel and colonization. I hope the spirit of innovation we had when we were 

younger is well and alive for the grads now moving into the various fields.      

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:13 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Wow. Great story and pictures!! Did not think that so many composite experts are here in this group. Great. 

 

When I look at what you have worked with in your career in the field of composites, especially with these large furnaces, I feel really small with my little vacuum bag and the electric blankets.  :-))  I think the Q1 would fit entirely in one of these ovens and many more......

 

Eugen 

 

Am 31.03.2021 um 02:01 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>:

 

That’s a cool discovery, Charlie. Also, glad you are going to get the “Milk Stool” back in the air soon. 

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Vern,

 

You cannot use a vacuum bag for a repair on orbit. No consolidation without a column of air pushing on it. We discussed on orbit composite repairs with Thiokol and Scotty Horowitz after the second shuttle loss. The silicon carbide / carbon leading edge had a hole in it from ice impact. It would take a lot of development but Space shuttle is gone.

 

 

<image001.jpg>

 

I found two of my composite Filament Wound Case segments in Tucson a couple of weeks ago while visiting the museum. The forward 3 segments are 1/2” D6AC steel but the back two are what we produced at Hercules 1985-1986 RIP Challenger.


Charlie

 

P.S. found a replacement engine for the Tri-Pacer and working on installing.

 

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 3:28 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment. Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!   

 

 Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course. 

 

 As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those events to happen.

 

 Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen would be wealthy beyond imagination.     

 

Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam 

 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal 
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the 
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move 
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive 
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
> 
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
> 
> 
> Charlie
> 
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg 
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
> 
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
> 
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
> 
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
> 
>     Rob
> 
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


 


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Jay Scheevel
 

Just answered my own question by poking around on the web. Here is a whole page on NASA about it. Looks like it has come a long way since I saw it. Probably Charlie has done something with it at some point in his career.

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/aerogels.html

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 5:13 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Never heard of that one.. what is it?

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:07 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Hey Vern,

 

Back in the early 90’s I got to handle a piece of aerogel. This was a unique thing in that it had significant strength (not quite as strong as styrofoam), but almost no weight. My mind immediately started thinking about use as a core material.

 

In any case, I never hear about it anymore, so I don’t know what happened to that stuff. Seems like it would have had some application in spacecraft.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:17 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Plastic airplane geeks are naturally drawn to the Quickies. But I agree I have had the good 

fortune to learn from many at many different places in aviation, Eugen. That is not to 

say that real advancement is only in multi billion dollar environments. Not at all!  I strongly

feel the guy out in his Shop is a special part of aviation.   

 

 There are several people I wished I had been able to meet and learn from but cannot now since 

they are "gone West" as we pilots say. But I am grateful, and not one day in aviation has

passed I didn't learn something new.    

 

 The Tandem Wing design are odd looking airplanes, and it fits with our personalities I suppose. 😊 

 

 Charlie..good to read your Tri Pacer is back on track.  

 

 What I was thinking in space manufacturing are the possibilities in materials and processes 

not possible on terra firma (foam steel for instance..)  I dunno what is next..there are probably 

many innovations if we can just get established outside of gravity. 

 

 From now on the younger folks are going to have to work out all kinds of problems in 

space travel and colonization. I hope the spirit of innovation we had when we were 

younger is well and alive for the grads now moving into the various fields.      

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:13 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Wow. Great story and pictures!! Did not think that so many composite experts are here in this group. Great. 

 

When I look at what you have worked with in your career in the field of composites, especially with these large furnaces, I feel really small with my little vacuum bag and the electric blankets.  :-))  I think the Q1 would fit entirely in one of these ovens and many more......

 

Eugen 

 

Am 31.03.2021 um 02:01 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>:

 

That’s a cool discovery, Charlie. Also, glad you are going to get the “Milk Stool” back in the air soon. 

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Vern,

 

You cannot use a vacuum bag for a repair on orbit. No consolidation without a column of air pushing on it. We discussed on orbit composite repairs with Thiokol and Scotty Horowitz after the second shuttle loss. The silicon carbide / carbon leading edge had a hole in it from ice impact. It would take a lot of development but Space shuttle is gone.

 

 

<image001.jpg>

 

I found two of my composite Filament Wound Case segments in Tucson a couple of weeks ago while visiting the museum. The forward 3 segments are 1/2” D6AC steel but the back two are what we produced at Hercules 1985-1986 RIP Challenger.


Charlie

 

P.S. found a replacement engine for the Tri-Pacer and working on installing.

 

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 3:28 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment. Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!   

 

 Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course. 

 

 As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those events to happen.

 

 Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen would be wealthy beyond imagination.     

 

Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam 

 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal 
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the 
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move 
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive 
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
> 
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
> 
> 
> Charlie
> 
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg 
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
> 
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
> 
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
> 
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
> 
>     Rob
> 
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


 


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Frankenbird Vern
 

Hmmm. we used a thin mylar sheet, Rob. It was light green in color but transparent. I don't remember off hand the brand
name but all that had to be removed after cure was the "nibs" where the resin flow wicks into the bleeder cloth. It lifted easily...not like peel ply which usually is a bit of a fight to remove from pre-preg parts baked in an autoclave.  


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 6:11 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
Ah yes, of course. Perforated foil is sold with all kinds of hole diameters, down to pin pricks. Thanks!

Rob

On 31 Mar 2021 00:11, smeshno1@... wrote:
>   Perforated release film... you can make it yourself with a pinking wheel used for sewing. Fewer
> holes generally your leave more resin in the cloth..more holes..bleed faster. Perforated film and
> then the bleeder. The type of bleeder polyester mat, cotton, there are variety of materials. You see
> now why in Production the variation if performing wet layup and cure it is just not a good idea.
> Inconsistant results..cost lots of money.
>
>   We did do wet layup and cure as is done on all Rutan aircraft (no solid foams, most of the parts
> carbon fiber with honeycomb core of course) on Starship NC-1, NC-2, and NC-3 using wooden male
> tooling (IML is the controlled surface). The Autoclave that exploded in the photos I sent was not
> yet completed in Plant 3 when we were in R&D (the program was still secret up to the time NC1 was
> ready to start test flights) so we had no choice but to build as in a home shop environment.
>
>   Plant 4, Department 123 was in a non air conditioned metal cow barn, miserable in Kansas Summer
> heat. NO ventilation..no downdraft tables at all. Carbon fiber dust floating everywhere. You'll
> never forget the odor of carbon fiber once you've had a lung full of it. We had no clue of the
> dangers of the materials we were exposed to.
>
>   The airplane was a BITCH to build. Took forever and ended up heavy as a pig.
>
>   I moved on to Boeing at the time Starship went into production. Raytheon upgraded to Pre-pregs at
> some later unit than I worked on.
>
>   Black Lung Vern..gonna have to donate by body to science fiction when I die I guess.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:45 PM
> *To:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
> Another thanks for explaining the details of the autoclave process. Reading about fires up my
> composites and materials enthusiasm big time :-) I could probably chat for hours with you guys!
>
> About the 'thirst' of the bleeder, is that mainly governed by its thickness? That at least was my
> thinking when I ended up with dry laminates. But I had only one type of bleeder.
>
> On the other hand, I've seen vacuum bagging where the whole bleeder got filled up, and it looked to
> me like the vacuum is then largely last on a large chunk of the part. IIRC, I could pinch the bag
> with two fingers, and lift it.
>
> An exploding autoclave, damn... I always had a healthy respect for the small autoclave in our lab (2
> meters deep, 1.3 meter wide roughly), but a n industrial sized one blowing up/off, brrr...
>
> Rob
>
> On 30 Mar 2021 00:30, smeshno1@... wrote:
>>   Both are used..slight vacuum and pressure are applied using pre-pregs. It's called porosity in the
>> industry lingo. The layups are guiding the mechanic by laser light. They don't have time to mark
>> shit with tape or other.. there are also cutting programs.. Gerber machines are the popular one. So
>> 40 or 50 techs are all working in the Oopma Loompa fashion in a freezing cold room. They also do the
>> peel ply layup as part of the schedule before bag and vacuum.
>>
>>   The autoclave cure programming is based on the type of resin (how fast it reaches a rubbery
>> condition from a runny thin viscosity) and the ply schedule (numbers of) and type and shape of core,
>> and if film adhesive is used (almost always is used now). Some plys are also bonding (such as
>> electrical) for lightning strike..imbedded in those carbon fiber pre-preg is thin copper mesh. Use
>> the wrong program and the autoclave will for sure create junk parts. All that previous work is lost
>> effort..and a ton of money tossed out as well.
>>
>>   I don't know about spacecraft composites (Charlie does..he worked in that world for years) but
>> aluminum mesh was the standard many years ago in aircraft.  The inherent problems of galvanic
>> corrosion using aluminum mesh for strike path made the copper mesh preferred, and because airplanes
>> in general are considered a reusable machine, they (hopefully) live many decades. Rockets and
>> missiles are (until recently) good for one trip..and weight is SUPER critical to even make the
>> mission possible. Copper is heavier and more expensive but delams are not good in any load bearing
>> structure.
>>
>> If your rich you don't care if the airplane costs 30 grand more..better it not break or go POOF! in
>> a lightning strike.
>>
>>    In some processes we also used pre autoclave ovens...where vacuum only was used. Possibly, in the
>> home shop environment, this process is usable (no foams...so other than layup only parts, now your
>> into buying core and cutting that messy crap..better to just buy flat panels already cured, just do
>> the edge fill and insert potting yourself). The advantage of the pre-preg is 100% you know the resin
>> is saturated. BUT..it is a PAIN to deal with. Clean room and working with gloved hands ALL the
>> time..and freezers...gotta have them to keep the temp low until it is time to "shake n bake'.
>> Humidity too..you have to control all parts of the work environment.
>>
>>   The bottom line is; you are correct that all of this background is only superficially related to
>> what is reasonably possible in the home shop environment, Rob. It is correct that bleeder that is
>> "thirsty" will draw your layup dry.
>>
>>   Even if I had the money to build what is required to do these same processes, I doubt my neighbors
>> would appreciate it if they knew I had something like this next door.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Years ago my desk was about 50 paces from this same Autoclave when I was on Contract as R&D
>> Manufacturing Engineering on the Beech Premier program in Plant 3.
>>
>>
>>   It go Boom!!!  Thanks be to God no deaths..but serious injury was still the result.
>>
>>   Most of the Starship major parts were cured in this same Autoclave. This one is considered a baby
>> now...think about how big the Airbus and Spirit/Boeing Autoclaves are!!
>>
>> Vern
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 29, 2021 3:30 PM
>> *To:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>> I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes. In an
>> autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>> what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>> into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
>>
>> And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb small
>> air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>> one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>> 'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles. Until
>> tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>>> Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the outside
>>> bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>>> would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group think and
>>> does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>>> Bruce Crain
>>>
>>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>>> From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@...>
>>> To: main@Q-List.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>>> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>>>
>>> Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>>> composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum bagging,
>>> peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot of noise
>>> from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>>
>>> If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>>>
>>>
>>>           Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>






Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Frankenbird Vern
 

 Yup.. I like Infusion as well. Viable and not unreasonably expensive in a home shop setting. The tooling issue is 
where Rutan methods make the grade for homebuilt aircraft. Most builders would rather not have to tool up,
and that makes sense because these aircraft are all intended to be "one off" even though they were in fact 
"short production lines" (in the case of the Q2 spars and fuselage shells..not so the Q1 or Dragonfly). 

 But if a builder has the background and is willing to accept the cost and effort to build tooling for complex config
parts I see no fault. Someone that has never built aircraft grade tooling is going to be overwhelmed and probably
never complete. The Scaled Composits crew in Mohave used the same methods on the 85% POC Starship as used
on the Long-eze. I watched this aircraft fly and taxi in to Plant 4 and it was an outstanding performer! No tooling used...
hotwire and templates. Same as the other Rutan aircraft. 

This one..munch munch munch. 



Vern

    


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 6:22 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
Thanks! I think you confirmed that the last 2-3% of voids is no longer a material strength concern.

I am pretty sure I made quite a few parts with almost zero voids, using vacuum injection. We
de-aired the epoxy resin very well before injection, we had excellent vacuum pumps, and we
understood the process well. I still have some cut-offs of very thick carbon C-beams, and I can't
see any voids. I will clean them next time I run my ultrasonic, and look again.

And I just thought of one other piece of 'evidence'; see attached photo. It's a C-beam I made of
glass fiber and epoxy, in 2002. I was pleasantly surprised how clear it was :-)

Rob

On 31 Mar 2021 00:27, smeshno1@... wrote:
>   The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering
> margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero
> atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough
> to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment.
> Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!
>
>   Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface
> stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course.
>
>   As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the
> almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those
> events to happen.
>
>   Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen
> would be wealthy beyond imagination.
>
> Vern
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
> *To:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
> Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal
> laminates to be autoclaved.
>
> A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the
> material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?
>
> Rob
>
> On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
>> Rob,
>>
>> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move
>> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive
>> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
>>
>> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
>>
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> My you tube channel
>> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>>
>>
>> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
>>
>>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>>     In an
>>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
>>
>>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>>     small
>>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>>     Until
>>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
>>
>>     Rob
>>
>>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>>     outside
>>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>>     think and
>>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>>      > Bruce Crain
>>      >
>>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>>
>>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>>
>>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>>      >
>>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>>     bagging,
>>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>>     of noise
>>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>
>>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>>
>>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>>      >
>>      >
>>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>>      >
>>      >
>>      >
>>      >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>






Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Frankenbird Vern
 

 Never heard of that one.. what is it?


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:07 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 

Hey Vern,

 

Back in the early 90’s I got to handle a piece of aerogel. This was a unique thing in that it had significant strength (not quite as strong as styrofoam), but almost no weight. My mind immediately started thinking about use as a core material.

 

In any case, I never hear about it anymore, so I don’t know what happened to that stuff. Seems like it would have had some application in spacecraft.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:17 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Plastic airplane geeks are naturally drawn to the Quickies. But I agree I have had the good 

fortune to learn from many at many different places in aviation, Eugen. That is not to 

say that real advancement is only in multi billion dollar environments. Not at all!  I strongly

feel the guy out in his Shop is a special part of aviation.   

 

 There are several people I wished I had been able to meet and learn from but cannot now since 

they are "gone West" as we pilots say. But I am grateful, and not one day in aviation has

passed I didn't learn something new.    

 

 The Tandem Wing design are odd looking airplanes, and it fits with our personalities I suppose. 😊 

 

 Charlie..good to read your Tri Pacer is back on track.  

 

 What I was thinking in space manufacturing are the possibilities in materials and processes 

not possible on terra firma (foam steel for instance..)  I dunno what is next..there are probably 

many innovations if we can just get established outside of gravity. 

 

 From now on the younger folks are going to have to work out all kinds of problems in 

space travel and colonization. I hope the spirit of innovation we had when we were 

younger is well and alive for the grads now moving into the various fields.      

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:13 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Wow. Great story and pictures!! Did not think that so many composite experts are here in this group. Great. 

 

When I look at what you have worked with in your career in the field of composites, especially with these large furnaces, I feel really small with my little vacuum bag and the electric blankets.  :-))  I think the Q1 would fit entirely in one of these ovens and many more......

 

Eugen 



Am 31.03.2021 um 02:01 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>:

 

That’s a cool discovery, Charlie. Also, glad you are going to get the “Milk Stool” back in the air soon. 

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Vern,

 

You cannot use a vacuum bag for a repair on orbit. No consolidation without a column of air pushing on it. We discussed on orbit composite repairs with Thiokol and Scotty Horowitz after the second shuttle loss. The silicon carbide / carbon leading edge had a hole in it from ice impact. It would take a lot of development but Space shuttle is gone.

 

 

<image001.jpg>

 

I found two of my composite Filament Wound Case segments in Tucson a couple of weeks ago while visiting the museum. The forward 3 segments are 1/2” D6AC steel but the back two are what we produced at Hercules 1985-1986 RIP Challenger.


Charlie

 

P.S. found a replacement engine for the Tri-Pacer and working on installing.


 

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 3:28 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment. Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!   

 

 Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course. 

 

 As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those events to happen.

 

 Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen would be wealthy beyond imagination.     

 

Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam 

 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal 
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the 
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move 
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive 
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
> 
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
> 
> 
> Charlie
> 
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg 
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
> 
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
> 
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
> 
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
> 
>     Rob
> 
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



 


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Frankenbird Vern
 

 X-ray tho expensive is still the mark to meet. Sono and Thermography are "so so" as you say, but in general they are what is used in factory I've been at..  That said..we also tap tested a lot of parts (non comb parts).  Q.A. has a hammer used for this..basically the same design as the doctor uses on a knee reflex test. 

 No need for a special tool tho.. a Silver Dollar works just as well. 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 6:25 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
In our university lab we had a large 'C-scan' ultrasound-through-water scanner. From what I saw, the
results still needed a lot of interpretation. It wasn't easy-peasy.. But I agree that it's probably
the least worst solution.

Rob

On 31 Mar 2021 00:51, Cody wrote:
> Are we referring to the penetration factor? Wouldn't ultrasound be the most reliable since the
> substrate is non-metallic and not uniform in the first place? Unless it's honeycomb.
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 5:46 PM <smeshno1@... <mailto:smeshno1@...>> wrote:
>
>       You bring up good point, Rob.  The $200 million dollar question. What is the best Inspection?
>     Thermography? Water Ultrasound? X-ray? Nordam found out the hard way that dealing with Gulfstream
>     can cost a lot...bankruptcy of an entire division...when that question is not fully agreed on
>     first (IN WRITING).
>
>       For us the reliable old Silver Dollar ring is good enough..but the on-going battle for
>     Inspection has yet to be
>     fully resolved. Yet another place where fortunes can be made. Whomever invents the final
>     standard for composite
>     construction Inspection will live very comfortably.
>
>     Vern
>
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io> <main@Q-List.groups.io
>     <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...
>     <mailto:robdebie@...>>
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
>     *To:* main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io> <main@Q-List.groups.io
>     <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>     Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal
>     laminates to be autoclaved.
>
>     A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the
>     material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?
>
>     Rob
>
>     On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io <http://groups.io> wrote:
>     > Rob,
>     >
>     > In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move
>     > laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive
>     > remaining gases into solution in the resin.
>     >
>     > Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
>     >
>     >
>     > Charlie
>     >
>     > My you tube channel
>     > https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg
>     <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
>     > <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg
>     <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>>
>     >
>     > On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@... <mailto:robdebie@...>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     >     In an
>     >     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     >     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     >     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
>     >
>     >     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     >     small
>     >     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     >     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     >     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     >     Until
>     >     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
>     >
>     >     Rob
>     >
>     >     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>     >      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     >     outside
>     >      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>     >      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     >     think and
>     >      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>     >      > Bruce Crain
>     >      >
>     >      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>     >      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...> <mailto:smgrant@...
>     <mailto:smgrant@...>>>
>     >      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io> <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io
>     <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>>
>     >      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>     >      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>     >      >
>     >      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>     >      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     >     bagging,
>     >      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     >     of noise
>     >      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>
>     >     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c> ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>>
>     >      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>     >      >
>     >      >
>     >      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>     >      >
>     >      >
>     >      >
>     >      >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>
>
>
>
>
>






Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Jay Scheevel
 

Hey Vern,

 

Back in the early 90’s I got to handle a piece of aerogel. This was a unique thing in that it had significant strength (not quite as strong as styrofoam), but almost no weight. My mind immediately started thinking about use as a core material.

 

In any case, I never hear about it anymore, so I don’t know what happened to that stuff. Seems like it would have had some application in spacecraft.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:17 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Plastic airplane geeks are naturally drawn to the Quickies. But I agree I have had the good 

fortune to learn from many at many different places in aviation, Eugen. That is not to 

say that real advancement is only in multi billion dollar environments. Not at all!  I strongly

feel the guy out in his Shop is a special part of aviation.   

 

 There are several people I wished I had been able to meet and learn from but cannot now since 

they are "gone West" as we pilots say. But I am grateful, and not one day in aviation has

passed I didn't learn something new.    

 

 The Tandem Wing design are odd looking airplanes, and it fits with our personalities I suppose. 😊 

 

 Charlie..good to read your Tri Pacer is back on track.  

 

 What I was thinking in space manufacturing are the possibilities in materials and processes 

not possible on terra firma (foam steel for instance..)  I dunno what is next..there are probably 

many innovations if we can just get established outside of gravity. 

 

 From now on the younger folks are going to have to work out all kinds of problems in 

space travel and colonization. I hope the spirit of innovation we had when we were 

younger is well and alive for the grads now moving into the various fields.      

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:13 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Wow. Great story and pictures!! Did not think that so many composite experts are here in this group. Great. 

 

When I look at what you have worked with in your career in the field of composites, especially with these large furnaces, I feel really small with my little vacuum bag and the electric blankets.  :-))  I think the Q1 would fit entirely in one of these ovens and many more......

 

Eugen 



Am 31.03.2021 um 02:01 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>:

 

That’s a cool discovery, Charlie. Also, glad you are going to get the “Milk Stool” back in the air soon. 

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Vern,

 

You cannot use a vacuum bag for a repair on orbit. No consolidation without a column of air pushing on it. We discussed on orbit composite repairs with Thiokol and Scotty Horowitz after the second shuttle loss. The silicon carbide / carbon leading edge had a hole in it from ice impact. It would take a lot of development but Space shuttle is gone.

 

 

<image001.jpg>

 

I found two of my composite Filament Wound Case segments in Tucson a couple of weeks ago while visiting the museum. The forward 3 segments are 1/2” D6AC steel but the back two are what we produced at Hercules 1985-1986 RIP Challenger.


Charlie

 

P.S. found a replacement engine for the Tri-Pacer and working on installing.


 

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 3:28 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment. Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!   

 

 Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course. 

 

 As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those events to happen.

 

 Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen would be wealthy beyond imagination.     

 

Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam 

 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal 
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the 
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move 
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive 
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
> 
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
> 
> 
> Charlie
> 
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg 
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
> 
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
> 
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
> 
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
> 
>     Rob
> 
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



 


Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Bruce Crain
 

I see Sonia (1953-2020) I am sorry Rick was she your wife?  Loves and blessings!
Bruce


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q200 at Velocity Factory
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 13:57:37 -0400

Riley and Wesley are Scott's sons.

Sonia (1953-2020) & Rick

 





Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Frankenbird Vern
 

 Plastic airplane geeks are naturally drawn to the Quickies. But I agree I have had the good 
fortune to learn from many at many different places in aviation, Eugen. That is not to 
say that real advancement is only in multi billion dollar environments. Not at all!  I strongly
feel the guy out in his Shop is a special part of aviation.   
 
 There are several people I wished I had been able to meet and learn from but cannot now since 
they are "gone West" as we pilots say. But I am grateful, and not one day in aviation has
passed I didn't learn something new.    

 The Tandem Wing design are odd looking airplanes, and it fits with our personalities I suppose. 😊 

 Charlie..good to read your Tri Pacer is back on track.  

 What I was thinking in space manufacturing are the possibilities in materials and processes 
not possible on terra firma (foam steel for instance..)  I dunno what is next..there are probably 
many innovations if we can just get established outside of gravity. 

 From now on the younger folks are going to have to work out all kinds of problems in 
space travel and colonization. I hope the spirit of innovation we had when we were 
younger is well and alive for the grads now moving into the various fields.      


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:13 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
Wow. Great story and pictures!! Did not think that so many composite experts are here in this group. Great. 

When I look at what you have worked with in your career in the field of composites, especially with these large furnaces, I feel really small with my little vacuum bag and the electric blankets.  :-))  I think the Q1 would fit entirely in one of these ovens and many more......

Eugen 

Am 31.03.2021 um 02:01 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>:

That’s a cool discovery, Charlie. Also, glad you are going to get the “Milk Stool” back in the air soon. 
 
Cheers,
Jay
 
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
Vern,
 
You cannot use a vacuum bag for a repair on orbit. No consolidation without a column of air pushing on it. We discussed on orbit composite repairs with Thiokol and Scotty Horowitz after the second shuttle loss. The silicon carbide / carbon leading edge had a hole in it from ice impact. It would take a lot of development but Space shuttle is gone.
 
 
<image001.jpg>
 
I found two of my composite Filament Wound Case segments in Tucson a couple of weeks ago while visiting the museum. The forward 3 segments are 1/2” D6AC steel but the back two are what we produced at Hercules 1985-1986 RIP Challenger.

Charlie
 
P.S. found a replacement engine for the Tri-Pacer and working on installing.



 

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 3:28 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment. Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!   
 
 Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course. 
 
 As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those events to happen.
 
 Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen would be wealthy beyond imagination.     
 
Vern

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam 
 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal 
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the 
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move 
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive 
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
> 
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
> 
> 
> Charlie
> 
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg 
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
> 
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
> 
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
> 
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
> 
>     Rob
> 
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 






Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Rick Hole
 

Scott is Brian Scott Swing

Sonia (1953-2020) & Rick

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 2:52 PM Adam hied <hiedadam@...> wrote:
Well Riley is Duane’s grandson. Not sure who Riley’s dad is.

Cordially,

Adam Hied

www.adamhied.com - dragonfly experimental airplane blog 

On Mar 31, 2021, at 1:36 PM, Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:


Is Brian or Riley?? Scott's son?
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q200 at Velocity Factory
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 08:05:04 -0400

When Scott re-acquired his N1711Q I helped repair the tailbone and built a new instrument panel for it.
Thanks for 
Rick Hole

 

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:59 AM Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Here’s a couple of pics from a video Velocity posted yesterday.  Good looking Q200 registered to Brian Swings.



Corbin

--
Corbin
N121CG






Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Adam hied
 

Well Riley is Duane’s grandson. Not sure who Riley’s dad is.

Cordially,

Adam Hied

www.adamhied.com - dragonfly experimental airplane blog 

On Mar 31, 2021, at 1:36 PM, Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:


Is Brian or Riley?? Scott's son?
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q200 at Velocity Factory
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 08:05:04 -0400

When Scott re-acquired his N1711Q I helped repair the tailbone and built a new instrument panel for it.
Thanks for 
Rick Hole

 

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:59 AM Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Here’s a couple of pics from a video Velocity posted yesterday.  Good looking Q200 registered to Brian Swings.



Corbin

--
Corbin
N121CG






Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Rick Hole
 

Riley and Wesley are Scott's sons.

Sonia (1953-2020) & Rick




_._,_._,_



Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Bruce Crain
 

Is Brian or Riley?? Scott's son?
Bruce


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q200 at Velocity Factory
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 08:05:04 -0400

When Scott re-acquired his N1711Q I helped repair the tailbone and built a new instrument panel for it.
Thanks for 
Rick Hole

 

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:59 AM Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Here’s a couple of pics from a video Velocity posted yesterday.  Good looking Q200 registered to Brian Swings.



Corbin

--
Corbin
N121CG






Re: Milk Stool and Dragonfly

One Sky Dog
 

Jay the chain of events started with a 1977 rubber oil line to the oil pressure gauge. I would never sign a condition inspection on my Dragonfly with a 40 year old rubber hose like multiple certified A&P AI’s did. 

A Cherokee in Idaho failed the spar inspection and it had a O-320 B2B 160 hp engine. My PA-22-150 Type certificate allows me to upgrade by serial number. I picked it up Monday. I have removed Cherokee stuff and starting to dress it up as a Tri-Pacer engine.

I need to get the Dragonfly out of Ogden this year! That 10% to finish the repair is taking longer , who would have thought?I will be following Bob north with my cargo trailer to Ogden. The OGD airport is a contentious place these days I need a bigger space than the T Hangar I am renting for an exorbitant price to completely move out of Utah. I am trying to rearrange stuff to try and have a hangar built in the future.

Everyone at Benson likes the “milk stool” even the RV 200 mph plus guy said it is kinda growing on him. It will be nice to get it in the air for the dirt strips around here not a Super Cub but better STOL than a Dragonfly. More than adequate for recreational backcountry airplane camping.

Inline image

My new Benson friends and me on the Wilcox Playa one of six dry lake basins with no outlet. Easy to get stuck in the mud if it is too wet. I have been getting right seat flying time in a Cherokee 140 while the Tri-Pacer repair solution is coming together.

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 5:01 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

That’s a cool discovery, Charlie. Also, glad you are going to get the “Milk Stool” back in the air soon.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Vern,

 

You cannot use a vacuum bag for a repair on orbit. No consolidation without a column of air pushing on it. We discussed on orbit composite repairs with Thiokol and Scotty Horowitz after the second shuttle loss. The silicon carbide / carbon leading edge had a hole in it from ice impact. It would take a lot of development but Space shuttle is gone.

 

 

Inline image

 

I found two of my composite Filament Wound Case segments in Tucson a couple of weeks ago while visiting the museum. The forward 3 segments are 1/2” D6AC steel but the back two are what we produced at Hercules 1985-1986 RIP Challenger.


Charlie

 

P.S. found a replacement engine for the Tri-Pacer and working on installing.



 

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 3:28 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment. Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!   

 

 Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course. 

 

 As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those events to happen.

 

 Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen would be wealthy beyond imagination.     

 

Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
>
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
>
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
>
>
> Charlie
>
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
>
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
>
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
>
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
>
>     Rob
>
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>
>
>
>
>
>




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