Date   

Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Niklas Bostelmann
 

Hi there, hi Eugen, I worked on German Certified Aircrafts and there we used a special resin for the Fuel Tank, it's not very great for laminating but it's the best resin for chemical/fuel resistants. We first did the entire Layup with the resin but later switched to only coating the finished fuel tank with a thick layer of the resin because it has a high viscosity it's not the best for laminating.


That's where you can get the resin

I have some other projects going but hope to get time to start building my Q1 soon... 

Greetings from Germany
Niklas 

Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...> schrieb am Di., 6. Apr. 2021, 11:42:

David,

thank you very much vor your email and the valuable information.

Please find in the attachment a cross section view from the fuselage that show which angle I choice for conturing. The angle in the Q1 drawings show up a 30°, as it also be captured, so I did it in the same way. The pictures from my past email deceive a bit, after some of the experts asked me about it, I did made a test piece and measured that unit again, it fits. But the countering area need some additional sanding to fit the requirements. 

Thanks for the tip with the main wing and the fuselage. I think before I will shape the fuselage, to build at first the main wing.  When these are available, then to form the fuselage. Or I will make a matching molded piece of the main wing from this area, we'll see. If necessary, it would be possible to insert a further struts in this area to support the fuselage wall? Sufficient space would be available in the segment. 

In the case of resin, I do not use MGS-335. My choice is HEXION MGS L385 and H 386 (aero approved), but that need a subsequent tempering of all parts, what is already schedule. Please find in the attachment a data sheet. My buddy has a paint booth with integrated heating that allows a temperature of 65°. Do you have a source I can refer to that does not confirm fuel resistance of the resin mentioned? I would be very interested in such a source. Thank you very much.

The wing foam that I chose is come from the the same supplier like the LongEz and Cozy guys here in Europe use, so it should be work for the Quickie too. But I will double check it too.

Best regards from Germany

Eugen  



Am 06.04.2021 um 09:51 schrieb David J. Gall <David@...>:

Eugen,

It appears that you machined a 45 degree bevel on the inside contouring of your fuselage sides and bottom. The section A-A you refer to shows a much more shallow bevel. You MAY encounter problems of break-through when contouring the outside of your fuselage. You WILL encounter an awkwardness when contouring the outside of the fuselage at the seatback bulkhead/main wing saddle area. The plans show the fuselage sides contoured to a "knife-edge" thickness of foam at the longerons (page 7-12, Station 70.0 and station 89.0) but immediately aft of the seatback bulkhead that knife edge has no longeron to support its inboard edge (page 7-9) and you've carved away the foam below the main wing but ABOVE the level where that knife edge line would continue aft of the seatback bulkhead. The dashed lines in the plans on page 7-9 behind station 78.0 extend too high up the inside wall of the fuselage side, causing the foam to be carved completely away or a compromise carving modification that results in an awkward bulge just aft of the canopy. My advice, since you're already carved the inside of the fuselage sides, is to modify the page 7-12 station 70.0 and station 89.0 carving profiles to leave more foam outboard of the longerons so that a smooth external shape can be achieved aft of the seatback bulkhead. (Too many words!)

Wing foam: make sure your wing foam has large enough surface pores for a good mechanical bond of the wing skins to the foam.

Epoxy: I am told that MGS-335 is NOT adequately fuel proof for fuel tanks. Be sure to use EZ-Poxy or Derakane 204 (or newer variant) for the inside of your fuel tank.


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Eugen Pilarski
 

David,

thank you very much vor your email and the valuable information.

Please find in the attachment a cross section view from the fuselage that show which angle I choice for conturing. The angle in the Q1 drawings show up a 30°, as it also be captured, so I did it in the same way. The pictures from my past email deceive a bit, after some of the experts asked me about it, I did made a test piece and measured that unit again, it fits. But the countering area need some additional sanding to fit the requirements. 

Thanks for the tip with the main wing and the fuselage. I think before I will shape the fuselage, to build at first the main wing.  When these are available, then to form the fuselage. Or I will make a matching molded piece of the main wing from this area, we'll see. If necessary, it would be possible to insert a further struts in this area to support the fuselage wall? Sufficient space would be available in the segment. 

In the case of resin, I do not use MGS-335. My choice is HEXION MGS L385 and H 386 (aero approved), but that need a subsequent tempering of all parts, what is already schedule. Please find in the attachment a data sheet. My buddy has a paint booth with integrated heating that allows a temperature of 65°. Do you have a source I can refer to that does not confirm fuel resistance of the resin mentioned? I would be very interested in such a source. Thank you very much.

The wing foam that I chose is come from the the same supplier like the LongEz and Cozy guys here in Europe use, so it should be work for the Quickie too. But I will double check it too.

Best regards from Germany

Eugen  



Am 06.04.2021 um 09:51 schrieb David J. Gall <David@...>:

Eugen,

It appears that you machined a 45 degree bevel on the inside contouring of your fuselage sides and bottom. The section A-A you refer to shows a much more shallow bevel. You MAY encounter problems of break-through when contouring the outside of your fuselage. You WILL encounter an awkwardness when contouring the outside of the fuselage at the seatback bulkhead/main wing saddle area. The plans show the fuselage sides contoured to a "knife-edge" thickness of foam at the longerons (page 7-12, Station 70.0 and station 89.0) but immediately aft of the seatback bulkhead that knife edge has no longeron to support its inboard edge (page 7-9) and you've carved away the foam below the main wing but ABOVE the level where that knife edge line would continue aft of the seatback bulkhead. The dashed lines in the plans on page 7-9 behind station 78.0 extend too high up the inside wall of the fuselage side, causing the foam to be carved completely away or a compromise carving modification that results in an awkward bulge just aft of the canopy. My advice, since you're already carved the inside of the fuselage sides, is to modify the page 7-12 station 70.0 and station 89.0 carving profiles to leave more foam outboard of the longerons so that a smooth external shape can be achieved aft of the seatback bulkhead. (Too many words!)

Wing foam: make sure your wing foam has large enough surface pores for a good mechanical bond of the wing skins to the foam.

Epoxy: I am told that MGS-335 is NOT adequately fuel proof for fuel tanks. Be sure to use EZ-Poxy or Derakane 204 (or newer variant) for the inside of your fuel tank.


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

David J. Gall
 

Eugen,

It appears that you machined a 45 degree bevel on the inside contouring of your fuselage sides and bottom. The section A-A you refer to shows a much more shallow bevel. You MAY encounter problems of break-through when contouring the outside of your fuselage. You WILL encounter an awkwardness when contouring the outside of the fuselage at the seatback bulkhead/main wing saddle area. The plans show the fuselage sides contoured to a "knife-edge" thickness of foam at the longerons (page 7-12, Station 70.0 and station 89.0) but immediately aft of the seatback bulkhead that knife edge has no longeron to support its inboard edge (page 7-9) and you've carved away the foam below the main wing but ABOVE the level where that knife edge line would continue aft of the seatback bulkhead. The dashed lines in the plans on page 7-9 behind station 78.0 extend too high up the inside wall of the fuselage side, causing the foam to be carved completely away or a compromise carving modification that results in an awkward bulge just aft of the canopy. My advice, since you're already carved the inside of the fuselage sides, is to modify the page 7-12 station 70.0 and station 89.0 carving profiles to leave more foam outboard of the longerons so that a smooth external shape can be achieved aft of the seatback bulkhead. (Too many words!)

Wing foam: make sure your wing foam has large enough surface pores for a good mechanical bond of the wing skins to the foam.

Epoxy: I am told that MGS-335 is NOT adequately fuel proof for fuel tanks. Be sure to use EZ-Poxy or Derakane 204 (or newer variant) for the inside of your fuel tank.


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

smeshno1@...
 

 Tony.. I am building a Frankenbird (2 seat tandem) but if you've seen the video on the racing team with the Vanguard it seems your search would be pretty easy to fulfill. You'd have one of your birds back in the air and...we'd love to see you at FOD in Enid this September. 

  If I weren't married, and already in progress, I would seriously considered this option. Years ago at North Little  Rock (KORK) airport where I learned to fly (and flew a lot of taildraggers also) I flew a Q1 with the original Onan.  The trees at the end of runway 35, which at the time the airport only had one runway, got REALLY large before I could get a positive rate of climb! A bit scary with the single handle 
mechanical brake on rollout also. BUT..if that aircraft had the extra HP the Vanguard offers and differential hydraulic brakes..maybe with a hoop main gear it would be a very economical and reliable travel machine.   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Warnock via groups.io <tony.warnock@...>
Sent: Monday, April 5, 2021 7:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
Guys,

Please keep us up to date on these developments!! I have two Q-1s I would like to install updated engines on. It initially planned for two strokes however if there is a modern four stroke alternative that is proving to be reliable and isn’t stupid heavy.......I’m definitely interested!! Especially the B&S!! The turbo diesel is exciting too!! Keep us informed on that project as well!!

Tony


On Mar 31, 2021, at 4:44 AM, Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...> wrote:

Rob,

wow, a Diesel with a turbo!!! Sounds awesome!! Did you have a youtube channel or a website/facebok with more information? Its the weight about 55kg all In or just the engine? 

A other great engine manufacturer is Lifan, they copied the B&S engine with some improvements and a EFI system too. Please find below a link: https://www.lifancanada.ca/27hp-lifan-engine-elect-starter-2v78f-3.html

I got my information about the B&S conversation from Kevin Armstrong, he has build one of the engine (no, it was two after the first blow up based on a value/oil issue) on his trike. Please find below the link on you tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy6Tg3ssJZc&t=105s

At first he chose the B&S Vanguard with 679cc and the second engine is B&S with 800cc. He did it all by him self and the upgrades comes from the US. The weight of the engine was all in around 30kg, so we are in the range that the Q1 could handle it.

If you want get in touch with kevin, send him a message and he will for sure share with you all the information/drawings/test result and soon.

Best regards

Eugen 


Am 30.03.2021 um 22:48 schrieb Robert Cringely <bob@...>:

I like the idea of using the Briggs & Stratton Vanguard engine, especially since there is so much racing experience and aftermarket parts. I am installing a new engine in my Q1 and going in a similar -- though not identical -- direction. I'm replacing the 22-hp Super-Onan with a pretty generic two-cylinder 870 cc Chinese direct-injection diesel rated for 25 hp at 3600 rpm. I'm turbocharging the engine with a tiny IHI turbo (the smallest sold) and an intercooler. I'm aiming for a turbo-normalized 30 hp, which should give me some really interesting performance numbers at my 17,999-foot cruise altitude.

The engine is all aluminum and air-cooled. I've removed a bunch of extra parts and material like the OEM exhaust, intake, and fuel tank and have the weight down around 55 kg. The new parts are mainly titanium, but that's because we use titanium at my day job and have a welder who does beautiful work. Guessing that the crankshaft is a casting, I'm installing a 1-to-1 belt drive to isolate the prop loads while raising the thrust line. The engine, turbo, and intercooler come from China, the redrive is from India, so the complete powerplant (minus prop) was under $2000 including shipping.

I built the new engine so I can commute to work in San Luis Obispo, CA. My company is right at the airport there and I can even park inside. Presently I fly my Thorp T-18, which takes about 90 minutes for the 222 nm flight from Santa Rosa. I don't expect the Q to go any faster (or slower) than that, but hope to drop the fuel consumption from 10 gallons down to three. Even at 10 gallons it is cheaper to fly than to drive my car, in part because I skip the toll on the Golden Gate Bridge. 



Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Tony Warnock
 

Guys,

Please keep us up to date on these developments!! I have two Q-1s I would like to install updated engines on. It initially planned for two strokes however if there is a modern four stroke alternative that is proving to be reliable and isn’t stupid heavy.......I’m definitely interested!! Especially the B&S!! The turbo diesel is exciting too!! Keep us informed on that project as well!!

Tony


On Mar 31, 2021, at 4:44 AM, Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...> wrote:

Rob,

wow, a Diesel with a turbo!!! Sounds awesome!! Did you have a youtube channel or a website/facebok with more information? Its the weight about 55kg all In or just the engine? 

A other great engine manufacturer is Lifan, they copied the B&S engine with some improvements and a EFI system too. Please find below a link: https://www.lifancanada.ca/27hp-lifan-engine-elect-starter-2v78f-3.html

I got my information about the B&S conversation from Kevin Armstrong, he has build one of the engine (no, it was two after the first blow up based on a value/oil issue) on his trike. Please find below the link on you tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy6Tg3ssJZc&t=105s

At first he chose the B&S Vanguard with 679cc and the second engine is B&S with 800cc. He did it all by him self and the upgrades comes from the US. The weight of the engine was all in around 30kg, so we are in the range that the Q1 could handle it.

If you want get in touch with kevin, send him a message and he will for sure share with you all the information/drawings/test result and soon.

Best regards

Eugen 


Am 30.03.2021 um 22:48 schrieb Robert Cringely <bob@...>:

I like the idea of using the Briggs & Stratton Vanguard engine, especially since there is so much racing experience and aftermarket parts. I am installing a new engine in my Q1 and going in a similar -- though not identical -- direction. I'm replacing the 22-hp Super-Onan with a pretty generic two-cylinder 870 cc Chinese direct-injection diesel rated for 25 hp at 3600 rpm. I'm turbocharging the engine with a tiny IHI turbo (the smallest sold) and an intercooler. I'm aiming for a turbo-normalized 30 hp, which should give me some really interesting performance numbers at my 17,999-foot cruise altitude.

The engine is all aluminum and air-cooled. I've removed a bunch of extra parts and material like the OEM exhaust, intake, and fuel tank and have the weight down around 55 kg. The new parts are mainly titanium, but that's because we use titanium at my day job and have a welder who does beautiful work. Guessing that the crankshaft is a casting, I'm installing a 1-to-1 belt drive to isolate the prop loads while raising the thrust line. The engine, turbo, and intercooler come from China, the redrive is from India, so the complete powerplant (minus prop) was under $2000 including shipping.

I built the new engine so I can commute to work in San Luis Obispo, CA. My company is right at the airport there and I can even park inside. Presently I fly my Thorp T-18, which takes about 90 minutes for the 222 nm flight from Santa Rosa. I don't expect the Q to go any faster (or slower) than that, but hope to drop the fuel consumption from 10 gallons down to three. Even at 10 gallons it is cheaper to fly than to drive my car, in part because I skip the toll on the Golden Gate Bridge. 



Jay Scheevel's Tri-Q Q-Tour, Saturday April 10, 0900 Central Savings time, 1400 GMT

Sam Hoskins
 

From Grand Junction, Colorado,  join Jay  as we tour his highly modified Jabiru 3300 powered Tri-Q. This is a really unique aircraft and can't be missed. Jay may be holding the record for the longest time to build then actually fly his aircraft.

Since Jay has poor phone reception at his home airport, he pre-recorded the visual portion of the tour but will describe what we are seeing in real time. This session will follow our usual format of the tour for the first portion, then Q&A for the second portion. We will get the session uploaded to YouTube within a couple of days. Use the link at the bottom of this email to log into Zoom. No one will be admitted to Zoom until 9:00 Central Savings time.

Sam Hoskins is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
 
Topic: Jay Scheevel Q-Tour
Time: Apr 10, 2021 09:00 AM Central Time (US and Canada)
 
Join Zoom Meeting
 
Meeting ID: 739 7077 8699
Passcode: 0HvU79

 


Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Adam hied
 

Hi Terry,

I have a 360 camera, the GoPro max. So it just records everything and I can go into the video later and “reframe” it anyway i want. It’s really easy to use .

Cordially,

Adam Hied

www.adamhied.com - dragonfly experimental airplane blog 

On Mar 31, 2021, at 11:44 PM, Terry Adams <terrywadams@...> wrote:

 Adam,
I would like to know how you rotate the video camera during your videos.  I didn't see you manipulate any controls, and I like the smooth rotation.

Terry
N41521

On 3/31/2021 7:07 AM, Adam hied wrote:
I’m based at Sebastian, and I’ve been talking to Riley swing, he said he’s hoping to be flying it soon.

Cordially,

Adam Hied

www.adamhied.com - dragonfly experimental airplane blog 

On Mar 31, 2021, at 8:26 AM, Cody <cody.craig1985@...> wrote:


Wasn't this aircraft on barnstormers back in 2019?

-- 
Communication ink and paper free


Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Terry Adams
 

Adam,
I would like to know how you rotate the video camera during your videos.  I didn't see you manipulate any controls, and I like the smooth rotation.

Terry
N41521

On 3/31/2021 7:07 AM, Adam hied wrote:
I’m based at Sebastian, and I’ve been talking to Riley swing, he said he’s hoping to be flying it soon.

Cordially,

Adam Hied

www.adamhied.com - dragonfly experimental airplane blog 

On Mar 31, 2021, at 8:26 AM, Cody <cody.craig1985@...> wrote:


Wasn't this aircraft on barnstormers back in 2019?

-- 
Communication ink and paper free


Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Bruce Crain
 

The Swings are the best!  And they know that death isn't the end of it.  After talking with you at Velocity I know that you know you will see Sonia again.
Bruce


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q200 at Velocity Factory
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 20:36:07 -0400

Yes. We lost her last August. We had 7 wonderful years.
 
Clarification 
The Swing family:
Duane father of
Brian Scott (known as Scott) father of
Riley, Wesley and their daughter's name slips my memory.
I worked for the Swings 2005-2016.  They are great people and good friends. 

Sonia (1953-2020) & Rick

 

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 6:33 PM Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I see Sonia (1953-2020) I am sorry Rick was she your wife?  Loves and blessings!
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q200 at Velocity Factory
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 13:57:37 -0400

Riley and Wesley are Scott's sons.

Sonia (1953-2020) & Rick

 







Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Rick Hole
 

Yes. We lost her last August. We had 7 wonderful years.

Clarification 
The Swing family:
Duane father of
Brian Scott (known as Scott) father of
Riley, Wesley and their daughter's name slips my memory.
I worked for the Swings 2005-2016.  They are great people and good friends. 

Sonia (1953-2020) & Rick


On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 6:33 PM Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I see Sonia (1953-2020) I am sorry Rick was she your wife?  Loves and blessings!
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q200 at Velocity Factory
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 13:57:37 -0400

Riley and Wesley are Scott's sons.

Sonia (1953-2020) & Rick

 





Re: Resin volume placed on foam

smeshno1@...
 

 The museum at Huntsville is really good. I went there in 1967..I bet they've added a bit to the exhibits since then!. Gggg.

 My Dad was M.E. on the Apollo/Saturn V.  I still remember when they test fired the engine (one/only one).    


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:49 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
Jay I have read about it but have not seen it. You can you tube how to make it at home for the chemists.

Speaking of NASA and Hercules here is the full stack but I do not know where it is.


Inline image


Maybe Huntsville 

Charlie




On Wednesday, March 31, 2021, 4:41 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Just answered my own question by poking around on the web. Here is a whole page on NASA about it. Looks like it has come a long way since I saw it. Probably Charlie has done something with it at some point in his career.

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/aerogels.html

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 5:13 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Never heard of that one.. what is it?

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:07 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Hey Vern,

 

Back in the early 90’s I got to handle a piece of aerogel. This was a unique thing in that it had significant strength (not quite as strong as styrofoam), but almost no weight. My mind immediately started thinking about use as a core material.

 

In any case, I never hear about it anymore, so I don’t know what happened to that stuff. Seems like it would have had some application in spacecraft.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:17 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Plastic airplane geeks are naturally drawn to the Quickies. But I agree I have had the good 

fortune to learn from many at many different places in aviation, Eugen. That is not to 

say that real advancement is only in multi billion dollar environments. Not at all!  I strongly

feel the guy out in his Shop is a special part of aviation.   

 

 There are several people I wished I had been able to meet and learn from but cannot now since 

they are "gone West" as we pilots say. But I am grateful, and not one day in aviation has

passed I didn't learn something new.    

 

 The Tandem Wing design are odd looking airplanes, and it fits with our personalities I suppose. 😊 

 

 Charlie..good to read your Tri Pacer is back on track.  

 

 What I was thinking in space manufacturing are the possibilities in materials and processes 

not possible on terra firma (foam steel for instance..)  I dunno what is next..there are probably 

many innovations if we can just get established outside of gravity. 

 

 From now on the younger folks are going to have to work out all kinds of problems in 

space travel and colonization. I hope the spirit of innovation we had when we were 

younger is well and alive for the grads now moving into the various fields.      

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:13 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Wow. Great story and pictures!! Did not think that so many composite experts are here in this group. Great. 

 

When I look at what you have worked with in your career in the field of composites, especially with these large furnaces, I feel really small with my little vacuum bag and the electric blankets.  :-))  I think the Q1 would fit entirely in one of these ovens and many more......

 

Eugen 

 

Am 31.03.2021 um 02:01 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>:

 

That’s a cool discovery, Charlie. Also, glad you are going to get the “Milk Stool” back in the air soon. 

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Vern,

 

You cannot use a vacuum bag for a repair on orbit. No consolidation without a column of air pushing on it. We discussed on orbit composite repairs with Thiokol and Scotty Horowitz after the second shuttle loss. The silicon carbide / carbon leading edge had a hole in it from ice impact. It would take a lot of development but Space shuttle is gone.

 

 

<image001.jpg>

 

I found two of my composite Filament Wound Case segments in Tucson a couple of weeks ago while visiting the museum. The forward 3 segments are 1/2” D6AC steel but the back two are what we produced at Hercules 1985-1986 RIP Challenger.


Charlie

 

P.S. found a replacement engine for the Tri-Pacer and working on installing.

 

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 3:28 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment. Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!   

 

 Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course. 

 

 As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those events to happen.

 

 Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen would be wealthy beyond imagination.     

 

Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam 

 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal 
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the 
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move 
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive 
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
> 
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
> 
> 
> Charlie
> 
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg 
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
> 
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
> 
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
> 
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
> 
>     Rob
> 
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


 


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

smeshno1@...
 

 The X-ray shows voids and in honeycomb, delams in detail. One can also clearly see core displacement. Ultrasound is a bit like
magnaflux steel inspection. There can be some interpretation of the results..that said, Ultrasound is the industry standard Cody..but ironically when at Nordam we were expecting to be forced into X-ray over both Thermography and Ultrasound we discovered flaws not revealed before.

 We inspected parts already approved by Thermography and Ultrasound..and then could clearly see in X-ray what was not 
obvious by the other methods. Only in two parts that I remember did that discovery force MRB action. None were scrap disposition. I was part of the M.E. team working MRB there.     


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Cody <cody.craig1985@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:51 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
Are we referring to the penetration factor? Wouldn't ultrasound be the most reliable since the substrate is non-metallic and not uniform in the first place? Unless it's honeycomb. 

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 5:46 PM <smeshno1@...> wrote:
 You bring up good point, Rob.  The $200 million dollar question. What is the best Inspection? 
Thermography? Water Ultrasound? X-ray? Nordam found out the hard way that dealing with Gulfstream
can cost a lot...bankruptcy of an entire division...when that question is not fully agreed on first (IN WRITING).  

 For us the reliable old Silver Dollar ring is good enough..but the on-going battle for Inspection has yet to be
fully resolved. Yet another place where fortunes can be made. Whomever invents the final standard for composite
construction Inspection will live very comfortably.

Vern   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
>
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
>
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
>
>
> Charlie
>
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
>
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
>
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
>
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
>
>     Rob
>
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
>
>
>
>
>
>






Re: Resin volume placed on foam

One Sky Dog
 

Jay I have read about it but have not seen it. You can you tube how to make it at home for the chemists.

Speaking of NASA and Hercules here is the full stack but I do not know where it is.


Inline image


Maybe Huntsville 

On Wednesday, March 31, 2021, 4:41 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Just answered my own question by poking around on the web. Here is a whole page on NASA about it. Looks like it has come a long way since I saw it. Probably Charlie has done something with it at some point in his career.

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/aerogels.html

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 5:13 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Never heard of that one.. what is it?

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:07 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Hey Vern,

 

Back in the early 90’s I got to handle a piece of aerogel. This was a unique thing in that it had significant strength (not quite as strong as styrofoam), but almost no weight. My mind immediately started thinking about use as a core material.

 

In any case, I never hear about it anymore, so I don’t know what happened to that stuff. Seems like it would have had some application in spacecraft.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:17 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Plastic airplane geeks are naturally drawn to the Quickies. But I agree I have had the good 

fortune to learn from many at many different places in aviation, Eugen. That is not to 

say that real advancement is only in multi billion dollar environments. Not at all!  I strongly

feel the guy out in his Shop is a special part of aviation.   

 

 There are several people I wished I had been able to meet and learn from but cannot now since 

they are "gone West" as we pilots say. But I am grateful, and not one day in aviation has

passed I didn't learn something new.    

 

 The Tandem Wing design are odd looking airplanes, and it fits with our personalities I suppose. 😊 

 

 Charlie..good to read your Tri Pacer is back on track.  

 

 What I was thinking in space manufacturing are the possibilities in materials and processes 

not possible on terra firma (foam steel for instance..)  I dunno what is next..there are probably 

many innovations if we can just get established outside of gravity. 

 

 From now on the younger folks are going to have to work out all kinds of problems in 

space travel and colonization. I hope the spirit of innovation we had when we were 

younger is well and alive for the grads now moving into the various fields.      

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:13 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Wow. Great story and pictures!! Did not think that so many composite experts are here in this group. Great. 

 

When I look at what you have worked with in your career in the field of composites, especially with these large furnaces, I feel really small with my little vacuum bag and the electric blankets.  :-))  I think the Q1 would fit entirely in one of these ovens and many more......

 

Eugen 

 

Am 31.03.2021 um 02:01 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>:

 

That’s a cool discovery, Charlie. Also, glad you are going to get the “Milk Stool” back in the air soon. 

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Vern,

 

You cannot use a vacuum bag for a repair on orbit. No consolidation without a column of air pushing on it. We discussed on orbit composite repairs with Thiokol and Scotty Horowitz after the second shuttle loss. The silicon carbide / carbon leading edge had a hole in it from ice impact. It would take a lot of development but Space shuttle is gone.

 

 

<image001.jpg>

 

I found two of my composite Filament Wound Case segments in Tucson a couple of weeks ago while visiting the museum. The forward 3 segments are 1/2” D6AC steel but the back two are what we produced at Hercules 1985-1986 RIP Challenger.


Charlie

 

P.S. found a replacement engine for the Tri-Pacer and working on installing.

 

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 3:28 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment. Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!   

 

 Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course. 

 

 As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those events to happen.

 

 Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen would be wealthy beyond imagination.     

 

Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam 

 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal 
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the 
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move 
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive 
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
> 
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
> 
> 
> Charlie
> 
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg 
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
> 
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
> 
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
> 
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
> 
>     Rob
> 
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


 


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Jay Scheevel
 

Just answered my own question by poking around on the web. Here is a whole page on NASA about it. Looks like it has come a long way since I saw it. Probably Charlie has done something with it at some point in his career.

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/aerogels.html

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 5:13 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Never heard of that one.. what is it?

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:07 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Hey Vern,

 

Back in the early 90’s I got to handle a piece of aerogel. This was a unique thing in that it had significant strength (not quite as strong as styrofoam), but almost no weight. My mind immediately started thinking about use as a core material.

 

In any case, I never hear about it anymore, so I don’t know what happened to that stuff. Seems like it would have had some application in spacecraft.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:17 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Plastic airplane geeks are naturally drawn to the Quickies. But I agree I have had the good 

fortune to learn from many at many different places in aviation, Eugen. That is not to 

say that real advancement is only in multi billion dollar environments. Not at all!  I strongly

feel the guy out in his Shop is a special part of aviation.   

 

 There are several people I wished I had been able to meet and learn from but cannot now since 

they are "gone West" as we pilots say. But I am grateful, and not one day in aviation has

passed I didn't learn something new.    

 

 The Tandem Wing design are odd looking airplanes, and it fits with our personalities I suppose. 😊 

 

 Charlie..good to read your Tri Pacer is back on track.  

 

 What I was thinking in space manufacturing are the possibilities in materials and processes 

not possible on terra firma (foam steel for instance..)  I dunno what is next..there are probably 

many innovations if we can just get established outside of gravity. 

 

 From now on the younger folks are going to have to work out all kinds of problems in 

space travel and colonization. I hope the spirit of innovation we had when we were 

younger is well and alive for the grads now moving into the various fields.      

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:13 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Wow. Great story and pictures!! Did not think that so many composite experts are here in this group. Great. 

 

When I look at what you have worked with in your career in the field of composites, especially with these large furnaces, I feel really small with my little vacuum bag and the electric blankets.  :-))  I think the Q1 would fit entirely in one of these ovens and many more......

 

Eugen 

 

Am 31.03.2021 um 02:01 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>:

 

That’s a cool discovery, Charlie. Also, glad you are going to get the “Milk Stool” back in the air soon. 

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Vern,

 

You cannot use a vacuum bag for a repair on orbit. No consolidation without a column of air pushing on it. We discussed on orbit composite repairs with Thiokol and Scotty Horowitz after the second shuttle loss. The silicon carbide / carbon leading edge had a hole in it from ice impact. It would take a lot of development but Space shuttle is gone.

 

 

<image001.jpg>

 

I found two of my composite Filament Wound Case segments in Tucson a couple of weeks ago while visiting the museum. The forward 3 segments are 1/2” D6AC steel but the back two are what we produced at Hercules 1985-1986 RIP Challenger.


Charlie

 

P.S. found a replacement engine for the Tri-Pacer and working on installing.

 

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 3:28 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment. Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!   

 

 Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course. 

 

 As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those events to happen.

 

 Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen would be wealthy beyond imagination.     

 

Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam 

 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal 
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the 
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move 
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive 
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
> 
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
> 
> 
> Charlie
> 
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg 
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
> 
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
> 
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
> 
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
> 
>     Rob
> 
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
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>      >
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> 
> 
> 
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> 


 


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

smeshno1@...
 

Hmmm. we used a thin mylar sheet, Rob. It was light green in color but transparent. I don't remember off hand the brand
name but all that had to be removed after cure was the "nibs" where the resin flow wicks into the bleeder cloth. It lifted easily...not like peel ply which usually is a bit of a fight to remove from pre-preg parts baked in an autoclave.  


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 6:11 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
Ah yes, of course. Perforated foil is sold with all kinds of hole diameters, down to pin pricks. Thanks!

Rob

On 31 Mar 2021 00:11, smeshno1@... wrote:
>   Perforated release film... you can make it yourself with a pinking wheel used for sewing. Fewer
> holes generally your leave more resin in the cloth..more holes..bleed faster. Perforated film and
> then the bleeder. The type of bleeder polyester mat, cotton, there are variety of materials. You see
> now why in Production the variation if performing wet layup and cure it is just not a good idea.
> Inconsistant results..cost lots of money.
>
>   We did do wet layup and cure as is done on all Rutan aircraft (no solid foams, most of the parts
> carbon fiber with honeycomb core of course) on Starship NC-1, NC-2, and NC-3 using wooden male
> tooling (IML is the controlled surface). The Autoclave that exploded in the photos I sent was not
> yet completed in Plant 3 when we were in R&D (the program was still secret up to the time NC1 was
> ready to start test flights) so we had no choice but to build as in a home shop environment.
>
>   Plant 4, Department 123 was in a non air conditioned metal cow barn, miserable in Kansas Summer
> heat. NO ventilation..no downdraft tables at all. Carbon fiber dust floating everywhere. You'll
> never forget the odor of carbon fiber once you've had a lung full of it. We had no clue of the
> dangers of the materials we were exposed to.
>
>   The airplane was a BITCH to build. Took forever and ended up heavy as a pig.
>
>   I moved on to Boeing at the time Starship went into production. Raytheon upgraded to Pre-pregs at
> some later unit than I worked on.
>
>   Black Lung Vern..gonna have to donate by body to science fiction when I die I guess.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:45 PM
> *To:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
> Another thanks for explaining the details of the autoclave process. Reading about fires up my
> composites and materials enthusiasm big time :-) I could probably chat for hours with you guys!
>
> About the 'thirst' of the bleeder, is that mainly governed by its thickness? That at least was my
> thinking when I ended up with dry laminates. But I had only one type of bleeder.
>
> On the other hand, I've seen vacuum bagging where the whole bleeder got filled up, and it looked to
> me like the vacuum is then largely last on a large chunk of the part. IIRC, I could pinch the bag
> with two fingers, and lift it.
>
> An exploding autoclave, damn... I always had a healthy respect for the small autoclave in our lab (2
> meters deep, 1.3 meter wide roughly), but a n industrial sized one blowing up/off, brrr...
>
> Rob
>
> On 30 Mar 2021 00:30, smeshno1@... wrote:
>>   Both are used..slight vacuum and pressure are applied using pre-pregs. It's called porosity in the
>> industry lingo. The layups are guiding the mechanic by laser light. They don't have time to mark
>> shit with tape or other.. there are also cutting programs.. Gerber machines are the popular one. So
>> 40 or 50 techs are all working in the Oopma Loompa fashion in a freezing cold room. They also do the
>> peel ply layup as part of the schedule before bag and vacuum.
>>
>>   The autoclave cure programming is based on the type of resin (how fast it reaches a rubbery
>> condition from a runny thin viscosity) and the ply schedule (numbers of) and type and shape of core,
>> and if film adhesive is used (almost always is used now). Some plys are also bonding (such as
>> electrical) for lightning strike..imbedded in those carbon fiber pre-preg is thin copper mesh. Use
>> the wrong program and the autoclave will for sure create junk parts. All that previous work is lost
>> effort..and a ton of money tossed out as well.
>>
>>   I don't know about spacecraft composites (Charlie does..he worked in that world for years) but
>> aluminum mesh was the standard many years ago in aircraft.  The inherent problems of galvanic
>> corrosion using aluminum mesh for strike path made the copper mesh preferred, and because airplanes
>> in general are considered a reusable machine, they (hopefully) live many decades. Rockets and
>> missiles are (until recently) good for one trip..and weight is SUPER critical to even make the
>> mission possible. Copper is heavier and more expensive but delams are not good in any load bearing
>> structure.
>>
>> If your rich you don't care if the airplane costs 30 grand more..better it not break or go POOF! in
>> a lightning strike.
>>
>>    In some processes we also used pre autoclave ovens...where vacuum only was used. Possibly, in the
>> home shop environment, this process is usable (no foams...so other than layup only parts, now your
>> into buying core and cutting that messy crap..better to just buy flat panels already cured, just do
>> the edge fill and insert potting yourself). The advantage of the pre-preg is 100% you know the resin
>> is saturated. BUT..it is a PAIN to deal with. Clean room and working with gloved hands ALL the
>> time..and freezers...gotta have them to keep the temp low until it is time to "shake n bake'.
>> Humidity too..you have to control all parts of the work environment.
>>
>>   The bottom line is; you are correct that all of this background is only superficially related to
>> what is reasonably possible in the home shop environment, Rob. It is correct that bleeder that is
>> "thirsty" will draw your layup dry.
>>
>>   Even if I had the money to build what is required to do these same processes, I doubt my neighbors
>> would appreciate it if they knew I had something like this next door.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Years ago my desk was about 50 paces from this same Autoclave when I was on Contract as R&D
>> Manufacturing Engineering on the Beech Premier program in Plant 3.
>>
>>
>>   It go Boom!!!  Thanks be to God no deaths..but serious injury was still the result.
>>
>>   Most of the Starship major parts were cured in this same Autoclave. This one is considered a baby
>> now...think about how big the Airbus and Spirit/Boeing Autoclaves are!!
>>
>> Vern
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 29, 2021 3:30 PM
>> *To:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>> I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes. In an
>> autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>> what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>> into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
>>
>> And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb small
>> air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>> one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>> 'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles. Until
>> tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>>> Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the outside
>>> bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>>> would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group think and
>>> does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>>> Bruce Crain
>>>
>>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>>> From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@...>
>>> To: main@Q-List.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>>> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>>>
>>> Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>>> composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum bagging,
>>> peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot of noise
>>> from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>>
>>> If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>>>
>>>
>>>           Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>






Re: Resin volume placed on foam

smeshno1@...
 

 Yup.. I like Infusion as well. Viable and not unreasonably expensive in a home shop setting. The tooling issue is 
where Rutan methods make the grade for homebuilt aircraft. Most builders would rather not have to tool up,
and that makes sense because these aircraft are all intended to be "one off" even though they were in fact 
"short production lines" (in the case of the Q2 spars and fuselage shells..not so the Q1 or Dragonfly). 

 But if a builder has the background and is willing to accept the cost and effort to build tooling for complex config
parts I see no fault. Someone that has never built aircraft grade tooling is going to be overwhelmed and probably
never complete. The Scaled Composits crew in Mohave used the same methods on the 85% POC Starship as used
on the Long-eze. I watched this aircraft fly and taxi in to Plant 4 and it was an outstanding performer! No tooling used...
hotwire and templates. Same as the other Rutan aircraft. 

This one..munch munch munch. 



Vern

    


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 6:22 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
Thanks! I think you confirmed that the last 2-3% of voids is no longer a material strength concern.

I am pretty sure I made quite a few parts with almost zero voids, using vacuum injection. We
de-aired the epoxy resin very well before injection, we had excellent vacuum pumps, and we
understood the process well. I still have some cut-offs of very thick carbon C-beams, and I can't
see any voids. I will clean them next time I run my ultrasonic, and look again.

And I just thought of one other piece of 'evidence'; see attached photo. It's a C-beam I made of
glass fiber and epoxy, in 2002. I was pleasantly surprised how clear it was :-)

Rob

On 31 Mar 2021 00:27, smeshno1@... wrote:
>   The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering
> margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero
> atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough
> to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment.
> Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!
>
>   Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface
> stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course.
>
>   As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the
> almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those
> events to happen.
>
>   Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen
> would be wealthy beyond imagination.
>
> Vern
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
> *To:* main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
> Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal
> laminates to be autoclaved.
>
> A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the
> material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?
>
> Rob
>
> On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
>> Rob,
>>
>> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move
>> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive
>> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
>>
>> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
>>
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> My you tube channel
>> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>>
>>
>> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
>>
>>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>>     In an
>>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
>>
>>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>>     small
>>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>>     Until
>>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
>>
>>     Rob
>>
>>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>>     outside
>>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>>     think and
>>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>>      > Bruce Crain
>>      >
>>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>>
>>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>>
>>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>>      >
>>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>>     bagging,
>>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>>     of noise
>>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>
>>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>>
>>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>>      >
>>      >
>>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>>      >
>>      >
>>      >
>>      >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>






Re: Resin volume placed on foam

smeshno1@...
 

 Never heard of that one.. what is it?


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:07 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 

Hey Vern,

 

Back in the early 90’s I got to handle a piece of aerogel. This was a unique thing in that it had significant strength (not quite as strong as styrofoam), but almost no weight. My mind immediately started thinking about use as a core material.

 

In any case, I never hear about it anymore, so I don’t know what happened to that stuff. Seems like it would have had some application in spacecraft.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:17 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Plastic airplane geeks are naturally drawn to the Quickies. But I agree I have had the good 

fortune to learn from many at many different places in aviation, Eugen. That is not to 

say that real advancement is only in multi billion dollar environments. Not at all!  I strongly

feel the guy out in his Shop is a special part of aviation.   

 

 There are several people I wished I had been able to meet and learn from but cannot now since 

they are "gone West" as we pilots say. But I am grateful, and not one day in aviation has

passed I didn't learn something new.    

 

 The Tandem Wing design are odd looking airplanes, and it fits with our personalities I suppose. 😊 

 

 Charlie..good to read your Tri Pacer is back on track.  

 

 What I was thinking in space manufacturing are the possibilities in materials and processes 

not possible on terra firma (foam steel for instance..)  I dunno what is next..there are probably 

many innovations if we can just get established outside of gravity. 

 

 From now on the younger folks are going to have to work out all kinds of problems in 

space travel and colonization. I hope the spirit of innovation we had when we were 

younger is well and alive for the grads now moving into the various fields.      

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:13 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Wow. Great story and pictures!! Did not think that so many composite experts are here in this group. Great. 

 

When I look at what you have worked with in your career in the field of composites, especially with these large furnaces, I feel really small with my little vacuum bag and the electric blankets.  :-))  I think the Q1 would fit entirely in one of these ovens and many more......

 

Eugen 



Am 31.03.2021 um 02:01 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>:

 

That’s a cool discovery, Charlie. Also, glad you are going to get the “Milk Stool” back in the air soon. 

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Vern,

 

You cannot use a vacuum bag for a repair on orbit. No consolidation without a column of air pushing on it. We discussed on orbit composite repairs with Thiokol and Scotty Horowitz after the second shuttle loss. The silicon carbide / carbon leading edge had a hole in it from ice impact. It would take a lot of development but Space shuttle is gone.

 

 

<image001.jpg>

 

I found two of my composite Filament Wound Case segments in Tucson a couple of weeks ago while visiting the museum. The forward 3 segments are 1/2” D6AC steel but the back two are what we produced at Hercules 1985-1986 RIP Challenger.


Charlie

 

P.S. found a replacement engine for the Tri-Pacer and working on installing.


 

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 3:28 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment. Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!   

 

 Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course. 

 

 As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those events to happen.

 

 Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen would be wealthy beyond imagination.     

 

Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam 

 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal 
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the 
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move 
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive 
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
> 
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
> 
> 
> Charlie
> 
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg 
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
> 
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
> 
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
> 
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
> 
>     Rob
> 
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



 


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

smeshno1@...
 

 X-ray tho expensive is still the mark to meet. Sono and Thermography are "so so" as you say, but in general they are what is used in factory I've been at..  That said..we also tap tested a lot of parts (non comb parts).  Q.A. has a hammer used for this..basically the same design as the doctor uses on a knee reflex test. 

 No need for a special tool tho.. a Silver Dollar works just as well. 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 6:25 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
 
In our university lab we had a large 'C-scan' ultrasound-through-water scanner. From what I saw, the
results still needed a lot of interpretation. It wasn't easy-peasy.. But I agree that it's probably
the least worst solution.

Rob

On 31 Mar 2021 00:51, Cody wrote:
> Are we referring to the penetration factor? Wouldn't ultrasound be the most reliable since the
> substrate is non-metallic and not uniform in the first place? Unless it's honeycomb.
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021, 5:46 PM <smeshno1@... <mailto:smeshno1@...>> wrote:
>
>       You bring up good point, Rob.  The $200 million dollar question. What is the best Inspection?
>     Thermography? Water Ultrasound? X-ray? Nordam found out the hard way that dealing with Gulfstream
>     can cost a lot...bankruptcy of an entire division...when that question is not fully agreed on
>     first (IN WRITING).
>
>       For us the reliable old Silver Dollar ring is good enough..but the on-going battle for
>     Inspection has yet to be
>     fully resolved. Yet another place where fortunes can be made. Whomever invents the final
>     standard for composite
>     construction Inspection will live very comfortably.
>
>     Vern
>
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io> <main@Q-List.groups.io
>     <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...
>     <mailto:robdebie@...>>
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
>     *To:* main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io> <main@Q-List.groups.io
>     <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>     Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal
>     laminates to be autoclaved.
>
>     A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the
>     material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?
>
>     Rob
>
>     On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io <http://groups.io> wrote:
>     > Rob,
>     >
>     > In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move
>     > laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive
>     > remaining gases into solution in the resin.
>     >
>     > Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
>     >
>     >
>     > Charlie
>     >
>     > My you tube channel
>     > https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg
>     <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
>     > <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg
>     <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>>
>     >
>     > On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@... <mailto:robdebie@...>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     >     In an
>     >     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     >     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     >     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
>     >
>     >     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     >     small
>     >     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     >     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     >     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     >     Until
>     >     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
>     >
>     >     Rob
>     >
>     >     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>     >      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     >     outside
>     >      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>     >      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     >     think and
>     >      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>     >      > Bruce Crain
>     >      >
>     >      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>     >      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...> <mailto:smgrant@...
>     <mailto:smgrant@...>>>
>     >      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io> <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io
>     <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>>
>     >      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>     >      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>     >      >
>     >      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>     >      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     >     bagging,
>     >      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     >     of noise
>     >      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>
>     >     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c> ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c> <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>>
>     >      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>     >      >
>     >      >
>     >      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>     >      >
>     >      >
>     >      >
>     >      >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>
>
>
>
>
>






Re: Resin volume placed on foam

Jay Scheevel
 

Hey Vern,

 

Back in the early 90’s I got to handle a piece of aerogel. This was a unique thing in that it had significant strength (not quite as strong as styrofoam), but almost no weight. My mind immediately started thinking about use as a core material.

 

In any case, I never hear about it anymore, so I don’t know what happened to that stuff. Seems like it would have had some application in spacecraft.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of smeshno1@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:17 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

 Plastic airplane geeks are naturally drawn to the Quickies. But I agree I have had the good 

fortune to learn from many at many different places in aviation, Eugen. That is not to 

say that real advancement is only in multi billion dollar environments. Not at all!  I strongly

feel the guy out in his Shop is a special part of aviation.   

 

 There are several people I wished I had been able to meet and learn from but cannot now since 

they are "gone West" as we pilots say. But I am grateful, and not one day in aviation has

passed I didn't learn something new.    

 

 The Tandem Wing design are odd looking airplanes, and it fits with our personalities I suppose. 😊 

 

 Charlie..good to read your Tri Pacer is back on track.  

 

 What I was thinking in space manufacturing are the possibilities in materials and processes 

not possible on terra firma (foam steel for instance..)  I dunno what is next..there are probably 

many innovations if we can just get established outside of gravity. 

 

 From now on the younger folks are going to have to work out all kinds of problems in 

space travel and colonization. I hope the spirit of innovation we had when we were 

younger is well and alive for the grads now moving into the various fields.      

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2021 4:13 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Wow. Great story and pictures!! Did not think that so many composite experts are here in this group. Great. 

 

When I look at what you have worked with in your career in the field of composites, especially with these large furnaces, I feel really small with my little vacuum bag and the electric blankets.  :-))  I think the Q1 would fit entirely in one of these ovens and many more......

 

Eugen 



Am 31.03.2021 um 02:01 schrieb Jay Scheevel <jay@...>:

 

That’s a cool discovery, Charlie. Also, glad you are going to get the “Milk Stool” back in the air soon. 

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 5:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam

 

Vern,

 

You cannot use a vacuum bag for a repair on orbit. No consolidation without a column of air pushing on it. We discussed on orbit composite repairs with Thiokol and Scotty Horowitz after the second shuttle loss. The silicon carbide / carbon leading edge had a hole in it from ice impact. It would take a lot of development but Space shuttle is gone.

 

 

<image001.jpg>

 

I found two of my composite Filament Wound Case segments in Tucson a couple of weeks ago while visiting the museum. The forward 3 segments are 1/2” D6AC steel but the back two are what we produced at Hercules 1985-1986 RIP Challenger.


Charlie

 

P.S. found a replacement engine for the Tri-Pacer and working on installing.


 

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 3:28 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 The ideal is zero void. Q.A. has to have some standard for acceptance or rejection. Engineering margin calculations take into consideration that zero void is not possible, although in zero G/ zero atmosphere manufacturing we might be much closer to the ideal. I probably will not live long enough to see it but most M.E. have already thought of what limits would be revised in such an environment. Perhaps some of you in your twenties could..I hope so!!   

 

 Theoretically.. glass fiber would be nearly infinitely strong in tension if there were no surface stress risers on the fibers. Not possible in todays world of course. 

 

 As I mentioned once before..nano techs were in the works to really make some advancements but the almighty Euro/Dollar/Yen or whatever money exchange chosen stepped in and made "no joy" for those events to happen.

 

 Check out "bucky balls" on the Net if your curious. Anyone that ever made this actually happen would be wealthy beyond imagination.     

 

Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:35 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam 

 

Thanks for the explanation! I never did autoclaving myself, although I prepared some fiber-metal 
laminates to be autoclaved.

A related question: AFAIK, a low percentage of voids (below 3-4%) has hardly any effect on the 
material properties. Would it be right to say that it is then more an indicator for quality control?

Rob

On 30 Mar 2021 11:57, One Sky Dog via groups.io wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> In an auto clave the usual cure cycle begins with full vacuum to expand the air bubbles so they move 
> laterally between the plies. The pressure is applied to reduce the size of any voids left and drive 
> remaining gases into solution in the resin.
> 
> Blender scheduals are calculated to not remove to much resin.
> 
> 
> Charlie
> 
> My you tube channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg 
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>
> 
> On Monday, March 29, 2021, 1:30 PM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:
> 
>     I really like this as a thought experiment. And I see some parallels with autoclave processes.
>     In an
>     autoclave you can apply pressure without the vacuum turned on. Therefore this is sort of similar to
>     what you propose. I haven't figured out yet whether this leads to different amount of resin flowing
>     into the bleeder - but my gut feeling says it will have a considerable effect.
> 
>     And now that I'm thinking about it, a typical autoclave pressure *could* make the resin absorb
>     small
>     air bubbles. At least that's what I see in resin casting, using polyurethane resin. In that process
>     one can take one of two very different routes: vacuum casting or pressure casting. In former you
>     'pull out' the air bubbles, in the latter the pressure makes the resin absorb the air bubbles.
>     Until
>     tonight I hadn't seen the parallel. But it has nothing to with building a Q1 or Q2 :-)
> 
>     Rob
> 
>     On 27 Mar 2021 21:40, Bruce Crain wrote:
>      > Just a thought.  Would it help to vacuum bag parts and then put sand or lead on top of the
>     outside
>      > bagging material to use weight to press the resin and glass together tighter into the weave?  It
>      > would be messy and you would have to keep the mold from creeping but what does the group
>     think and
>      > does any one have any experience to share about that?  Just thinking outside the box.
>      > Bruce Crain
>      >
>      > ---------- Original Message ----------
>      > From: "Stuart Grant" <smgrant@... <mailto:smgrant@...>>
>      > To: main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>
>      > Subject: Re: [Q-List] Resin volume placed on foam
>      > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:18:37 -0700
>      >
>      > Here is a link to a YouTube video where Cozy Girrl Randi explains about how Cozy Girrls make
>      > composite parts, including mixing epoxy, mixing micro, using gloves, low pressure vacuum
>     bagging,
>      > peel ply, sanding etc. The video was recorded at Sun-N-Fun 2019 and the beginning has a lot
>     of noise
>      > from the air show but Randi has great tips. https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c
>     <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c ><https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c <https://youtu.be/fmuDOWTr_3c>>
>      > If the link doesn't work search YouTube for
>      >
>      >
>      >          Cozy Girrrl's LoVac Composite Tools & Tricks
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



 


Re: Q200 at Velocity Factory

Bruce Crain
 

I see Sonia (1953-2020) I am sorry Rick was she your wife?  Loves and blessings!
Bruce


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Rick Hole" <r.hole@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q200 at Velocity Factory
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 13:57:37 -0400

Riley and Wesley are Scott's sons.

Sonia (1953-2020) & Rick

 




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