Date   

Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Jim Patillo
 

Image.jpegImage.jpegImage.jpegImage.jpegHi Eugen,

Sorry for the late reply. For the canopy opening and closing mechanism, I used 
1/4”Tx1”Wx12”L aluminum. I don’t really have any drawings. Just made it up as I went along. “Necessity is the Mother of Invention”. 

They are just parallelograms.

Make up some temporary pieces to simulate the correct movement of the arms and then transfer to the aluminum. Cut and shape aluminum. 

Sent from Outer Space


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2021 11:58:41 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
Dear Q-Community,

thanks for your hints and comments. Again, great to get that feedback from you guys! 

To post cure the Resin that I use for the Q1 Project (MGS LR385/LH386) it’s already a oven available that is used for the ASSO X-RAY Project (MGS LR285/LH285), please find below some Picture. It´s a full control heating process with some thermocouples and a customizing software solution (DIY).

It’s a easy construction of XPS elements, some cheap fans (Ebay 8$), two control cabinet heater from EBM Pabst (Ebay 20$), some bulbs (5 * 200W) and in the end a customizing fermentation controller (BrewiPI), please find below the link. https://www.brewpiremix.com   After all my aircrafts are in the air, maybe I will start to made my own beer :-)

To fit all parts of the Q1 in that oven it will be needed an extended version, if my buddy isn’t ready to go with his paint booth. So we will see……

The temperature will not rise more than 65°C, based on the Foam used in wing and canard area, for min. 15h but heat up 10°C/h (5h) and cool down with 10°C/h (5h).

So far all bulkheads are ready to go, just the seat bulkhead need to heat up (bending area) and fixed with resin/glass combo. The next step will be to contouring/cut out the bottom for fuselage. So far the temperature here in Germany will rise up a bit more, the glassing will start soon.

Best regards from Germany

Eugen 



Am 07.04.2021 um 17:59 schrieb One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...>:

If your airplane gets above 150 F you will have other problems. 150 F cooks flesh. We post cure in aerospace because the designers cut the margins thin knowing we had proper process control.

No mold less construction airplane that I know of has had heat distortion problems post cure or not.

Much ado about a statistically non issue.

Time promotes cross linking and that is all post cures do is further cross linking. 

Charlie







On Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 8:26 AM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:

> In any case, the way I see it, time is a partial substitute for temperature in the cure reaction,
> and especially effective if you take a such a very long time to build like I did!  …..So maybe I did
> post cure my wings after all.

I see your point, but as far as I know this does not apply to the glass-transition temperature.

Rob






Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Jay Scheevel
 

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dorothea Keats
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2021 2:41 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up

What ever happened to the all carbon fiber Q1 that was being built a while ago?---------- Chris


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Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

smeshno1@...
 

 It's funny.. cook your airplane and then make the Beer to celebrate!  I think only Germans can
find the best reason to enjoy a beer! 
 
Herr Lehman
Mannfor Oklahoma


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2021 1:58 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
Dear Q-Community,

thanks for your hints and comments. Again, great to get that feedback from you guys! 

To post cure the Resin that I use for the Q1 Project (MGS LR385/LH386) it’s already a oven available that is used for the ASSO X-RAY Project (MGS LR285/LH285), please find below some Picture. It´s a full control heating process with some thermocouples and a customizing software solution (DIY).

It’s a easy construction of XPS elements, some cheap fans (Ebay 8$), two control cabinet heater from EBM Pabst (Ebay 20$), some bulbs (5 * 200W) and in the end a customizing fermentation controller (BrewiPI), please find below the link. https://www.brewpiremix.com   After all my aircrafts are in the air, maybe I will start to made my own beer :-)

To fit all parts of the Q1 in that oven it will be needed an extended version, if my buddy isn’t ready to go with his paint booth. So we will see……

The temperature will not rise more than 65°C, based on the Foam used in wing and canard area, for min. 15h but heat up 10°C/h (5h) and cool down with 10°C/h (5h).

So far all bulkheads are ready to go, just the seat bulkhead need to heat up (bending area) and fixed with resin/glass combo. The next step will be to contouring/cut out the bottom for fuselage. So far the temperature here in Germany will rise up a bit more, the glassing will start soon.

Best regards from Germany

Eugen 



Am 07.04.2021 um 17:59 schrieb One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...>:

If your airplane gets above 150 F you will have other problems. 150 F cooks flesh. We post cure in aerospace because the designers cut the margins thin knowing we had proper process control.

No mold less construction airplane that I know of has had heat distortion problems post cure or not.

Much ado about a statistically non issue.

Time promotes cross linking and that is all post cures do is further cross linking. 

Charlie







On Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 8:26 AM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:

> In any case, the way I see it, time is a partial substitute for temperature in the cure reaction,
> and especially effective if you take a such a very long time to build like I did!  …..So maybe I did
> post cure my wings after all.

I see your point, but as far as I know this does not apply to the glass-transition temperature.

Rob






Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

smeshno1@...
 

 I have not read if Charlie already answered.. so I will "blind" so to speak. The cross link of the resin in a wet layup do increase with time. Post curing might accelerate the linking a bit. Prepregs are nothing more than controlled wet layups..then chilled to stop the reaction. EVEN THEN..over time the pre-pregs sloooowly will expire even in the freezer. 

 The same is true in metallurgy.. Aluminum Forgings also "cure" over time. If the metal is "green" and it has a machining op done it will deform. We got into a big fight with a California supplier to the Gulfstream G280 wing when I was at Triumph over just this topic. Landing gear box forging and spars. By the time they arrived in Tulsa they were warped to the point MRB was required on every unit!         

  For home shop builders the issue is when a builder lets say finishes in a cooler garage in Springtime and the full link is not yet achieved..and they are very enthusiastic "get er done" types and then the aircraft is on a hot ramp that very summer. Maybe they builder was unaware that we cannot paint the composite aircraft as Former President Trump's 757 is! All black is not a good idea. I've not heard of any properly built Rutan design method aircraft having in flight failure either post cured or not. 

 So post curing is more of a "feel better" when it comes to homebuilts, unless your building them at a 3 day rate like the 777 was.  We had to build moving ovens just to cure the sealer in time before the aircraft went to the paint hangar!  

 It is production....the need for speed is directly squared to the time to profit! 

Vern       


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Mike Steinsland <MIKESKUSTOMS@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 7, 2021 7:22 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io Group Moderators <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
Ah, yea, that's what I thought.



Glad I have you guys with all that knowledge and the ability to also simplify it for me

Thanks again for the help!

On Tue., Apr. 6, 2021, 9:25 p.m. Jay Scheevel, <jay@...> wrote:

Hi Mike,

 

I did not post cure my wing and canard layups, but I did build them in West Texas in the hot part of the year, and I have photos of my shop thermometer well over 100 F right after finishing layups late in the evening. Better have some very quick friends to help  get the layup finished before it sets up (which I did). I have had no evidence of any creep or dimensional changes despite 30+ years of moving, storage, etc. I was always careful to store the flight surfaces fully supported and not stressed, so no twisting etc. 

 

Now for the “Charlie and Vern bait!”:

I do remember from my organic chemistry and engineering courses, there was such a thing as the Arrhenius equation. It is a rate equation that governs a lot of reactions and also physical deformation of rate dependent solids. The rate constant is proportional to some other constants raised to an exponent -Ea/RT, where Ea is the activation energy of the reaction and R is another constant, so basically once there is enough energy to activate the reaction, the rate is a constant , say C, raised to the power -1/T … C ^ (-1/T),  or 1/(C^(1/T)). T is absolute temperature in Kelvins (at room temperature is about 295 K). If we raise T the effect on the rate is proportional the exponent of the ratio of the two temps in Kelvin degrees.

 

We know the epoxy reaction is active at room temperature, so we are above the activation energy even at room temperature. Lower temperature just means that the rate is slower, higher temperature rate is faster (exponentially). Tg is also probably a function of the mobility of the reagents at any given temp…above my pay grade.

 

In any case, the way I see it, time is a partial substitute for temperature in the cure reaction, and especially effective if you take a such a very long time to build like I did!  …..So maybe I did post cure my wings after all. 😊

 

OK Charlie and Vern…Have at me!

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Steinsland
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2021 5:26 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io Group Moderators <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up

 

Just a question while you're on the topic.

I have a project that was started by someone else 30 years ago. I have no way of knowing if the canard and wing were post cured....judging from the builders workmanship I'm guessing it was.

 

 Is there a time limit for when the post curing should be done for it to be effective?

 

Cheers

Mike

 

On Tue., Apr. 6, 2021, 4:56 p.m. , <smeshno1@...> wrote:

 The foam used by both other Rutan designs are acceptable. Be cautious of too high temperature for "post cure". 

 

65C= 149F    A bit of investigation is in order to assure foam damage will not result.  

 

 The recommended method in the States for most builders is to paint 100% the entire upper Flight surfaces with inexpensive 

flat black lacquer such as from "rattle can", and only after supporting the entire surface with the hot wired foam 

kept from your billets you originally hot wired from, leave in the hot Summer sun for one full day. Choose a day with no or little 

wind.

 

 This relates only to the Canard and Wing. There is no harm in this method with foams used in the past, or recently. There is no need to 

 post cure the lower surface, nor the fuselage. The smaller surfaces are not of concern from heat deformation.  

 

  Why are you concerned about adding additional internal struts?  The Q1 has a structurally stiff fuselage once completed. Perhaps Niklas

has information relating to the Kevlar methods used in Germany. Both of you will be working to the weight restrictions in order

to certify for flight. Kevlar is stronger than carbon and if correctly bonded to the resin a light yet robust aircraft will result. Sailplanes are stressed to higher G rating than powered aircraft..it is well known that German sailplanes are very competitive indeed. 

 

Vern Lehman

Mannford Oklahoma

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Niklas Bostelmann <niklasbostelmann@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:21 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up

 

Hi there, hi Eugen, I worked on German Certified Aircrafts and there we used a special resin for the Fuel Tank, it's not very great for laminating but it's the best resin for chemical/fuel resistants. We first did the entire Layup with the resin but later switched to only coating the finished fuel tank with a thick layer of the resin because it has a high viscosity it's not the best for laminating.

 

 

That's where you can get the resin

 

I have some other projects going but hope to get time to start building my Q1 soon... 

 

Greetings from Germany

Niklas 

 

Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...> schrieb am Di., 6. Apr. 2021, 11:42:

David,

 

thank you very much vor your email and the valuable information.

 

Please find in the attachment a cross section view from the fuselage that show which angle I choice for conturing. The angle in the Q1 drawings show up a 30°, as it also be captured, so I did it in the same way. The pictures from my past email deceive a bit, after some of the experts asked me about it, I did made a test piece and measured that unit again, it fits. But the countering area need some additional sanding to fit the requirements. 

 

Thanks for the tip with the main wing and the fuselage. I think before I will shape the fuselage, to build at first the main wing.  When these are available, then to form the fuselage. Or I will make a matching molded piece of the main wing from this area, we'll see. If necessary, it would be possible to insert a further struts in this area to support the fuselage wall? Sufficient space would be available in the segment. 

 

In the case of resin, I do not use MGS-335. My choice is HEXION MGS L385 and H 386 (aero approved), but that need a subsequent tempering of all parts, what is already schedule. Please find in the attachment a data sheet. My buddy has a paint booth with integrated heating that allows a temperature of 65°. Do you have a source I can refer to that does not confirm fuel resistance of the resin mentioned? I would be very interested in such a source. Thank you very much.

 

The wing foam that I chose is come from the the same supplier like the LongEz and Cozy guys here in Europe use, so it should be work for the Quickie too. But I will double check it too.

 

Best regards from Germany

 

Eugen  

 

 



Am 06.04.2021 um 09:51 schrieb David J. Gall <David@...>:

 

Eugen,

It appears that you machined a 45 degree bevel on the inside contouring of your fuselage sides and bottom. The section A-A you refer to shows a much more shallow bevel. You MAY encounter problems of break-through when contouring the outside of your fuselage. You WILL encounter an awkwardness when contouring the outside of the fuselage at the seatback bulkhead/main wing saddle area. The plans show the fuselage sides contoured to a "knife-edge" thickness of foam at the longerons (page 7-12, Station 70.0 and station 89.0) but immediately aft of the seatback bulkhead that knife edge has no longeron to support its inboard edge (page 7-9) and you've carved away the foam below the main wing but ABOVE the level where that knife edge line would continue aft of the seatback bulkhead. The dashed lines in the plans on page 7-9 behind station 78.0 extend too high up the inside wall of the fuselage side, causing the foam to be carved completely away or a compromise carving modification that results in an awkward bulge just aft of the canopy. My advice, since you're already carved the inside of the fuselage sides, is to modify the page 7-12 station 70.0 and station 89.0 carving profiles to leave more foam outboard of the longerons so that a smooth external shape can be achieved aft of the seatback bulkhead. (Too many words!)

Wing foam: make sure your wing foam has large enough surface pores for a good mechanical bond of the wing skins to the foam.

Epoxy: I am told that MGS-335 is NOT adequately fuel proof for fuel tanks. Be sure to use EZ-Poxy or Derakane 204 (or newer variant) for the inside of your fuel tank.


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Chris Walterson
 

What ever happened to the all carbon fiber Q1 that was being built a while ago?----------  Chris


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Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

smeshno1@...
 

 There is no way to know that am aware of, but by this time all your resin is crossed linked as much as it ever will be. I'd not risk heating your surfaces. What is more important is for the surfaces to stay cooler when your completed.  Do this simply by color scheme, Mike.
As you know the Q has a shorter span than Dragonfly..so the tendency of heat deformation of the Canard in a MKI lets say, on a hot ramp will be less for the Q bird. No dark colors on the sun exposed and we'll be ok.  

 Just so you'll know my surfaces were built by a supplier to an Experimental canard aircraft company based in Sebastian Florida. I have no idea if they post cured or not but the workmanship is quite high and the "ring" test shows no delamination that I could find. They are Dragonfly MKII config with no Anhedral Canard.  

 Wing and Canard have the "C" carbon spars as per Dragonfly engineering with the added carbon plys for the MKII gear. The Canard is the LS1 airfoil but the design strength is why I chose the for my project. I will be adding sparrow strainers and vortex generators..as few as is required. I really had no choice since my Q "kit' was mostly fuselage items, documentation, and plans only. I had no tapered tube Spars to build from and to me it was not a difficult choice to move to a "Frankenbird"... and that is what I intend to apply for to the DAR also.  

 I plan on mechanically removing the upper surface paint that is present because I am an experienced painter with the right equipment and background. Not sure what was used prior but my preference of finish is not what is applied now.  

Vern   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Mike Steinsland <MIKESKUSTOMS@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 6:26 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io Group Moderators <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
Just a question while you're on the topic.
I have a project that was started by someone else 30 years ago. I have no way of knowing if the canard and wing were post cured....judging from the builders workmanship I'm guessing it was.

 Is there a time limit for when the post curing should be done for it to be effective?

Cheers
Mike

On Tue., Apr. 6, 2021, 4:56 p.m. , <smeshno1@...> wrote:
 The foam used by both other Rutan designs are acceptable. Be cautious of too high temperature for "post cure". 

65C= 149F    A bit of investigation is in order to assure foam damage will not result.  

 The recommended method in the States for most builders is to paint 100% the entire upper Flight surfaces with inexpensive 
flat black lacquer such as from "rattle can", and only after supporting the entire surface with the hot wired foam 
kept from your billets you originally hot wired from, leave in the hot Summer sun for one full day. Choose a day with no or little 
wind.

 This relates only to the Canard and Wing. There is no harm in this method with foams used in the past, or recently. There is no need to 
 post cure the lower surface, nor the fuselage. The smaller surfaces are not of concern from heat deformation.  

  Why are you concerned about adding additional internal struts?  The Q1 has a structurally stiff fuselage once completed. Perhaps Niklas
has information relating to the Kevlar methods used in Germany. Both of you will be working to the weight restrictions in order
to certify for flight. Kevlar is stronger than carbon and if correctly bonded to the resin a light yet robust aircraft will result. Sailplanes are stressed to higher G rating than powered aircraft..it is well known that German sailplanes are very competitive indeed. 

Vern Lehman
Mannford Oklahoma


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Niklas Bostelmann <niklasbostelmann@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:21 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
Hi there, hi Eugen, I worked on German Certified Aircrafts and there we used a special resin for the Fuel Tank, it's not very great for laminating but it's the best resin for chemical/fuel resistants. We first did the entire Layup with the resin but later switched to only coating the finished fuel tank with a thick layer of the resin because it has a high viscosity it's not the best for laminating.


That's where you can get the resin

I have some other projects going but hope to get time to start building my Q1 soon... 

Greetings from Germany
Niklas 

Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...> schrieb am Di., 6. Apr. 2021, 11:42:
David,

thank you very much vor your email and the valuable information.

Please find in the attachment a cross section view from the fuselage that show which angle I choice for conturing. The angle in the Q1 drawings show up a 30°, as it also be captured, so I did it in the same way. The pictures from my past email deceive a bit, after some of the experts asked me about it, I did made a test piece and measured that unit again, it fits. But the countering area need some additional sanding to fit the requirements. 

Thanks for the tip with the main wing and the fuselage. I think before I will shape the fuselage, to build at first the main wing.  When these are available, then to form the fuselage. Or I will make a matching molded piece of the main wing from this area, we'll see. If necessary, it would be possible to insert a further struts in this area to support the fuselage wall? Sufficient space would be available in the segment. 

In the case of resin, I do not use MGS-335. My choice is HEXION MGS L385 and H 386 (aero approved), but that need a subsequent tempering of all parts, what is already schedule. Please find in the attachment a data sheet. My buddy has a paint booth with integrated heating that allows a temperature of 65°. Do you have a source I can refer to that does not confirm fuel resistance of the resin mentioned? I would be very interested in such a source. Thank you very much.

The wing foam that I chose is come from the the same supplier like the LongEz and Cozy guys here in Europe use, so it should be work for the Quickie too. But I will double check it too.

Best regards from Germany

Eugen  



Am 06.04.2021 um 09:51 schrieb David J. Gall <David@...>:

Eugen,

It appears that you machined a 45 degree bevel on the inside contouring of your fuselage sides and bottom. The section A-A you refer to shows a much more shallow bevel. You MAY encounter problems of break-through when contouring the outside of your fuselage. You WILL encounter an awkwardness when contouring the outside of the fuselage at the seatback bulkhead/main wing saddle area. The plans show the fuselage sides contoured to a "knife-edge" thickness of foam at the longerons (page 7-12, Station 70.0 and station 89.0) but immediately aft of the seatback bulkhead that knife edge has no longeron to support its inboard edge (page 7-9) and you've carved away the foam below the main wing but ABOVE the level where that knife edge line would continue aft of the seatback bulkhead. The dashed lines in the plans on page 7-9 behind station 78.0 extend too high up the inside wall of the fuselage side, causing the foam to be carved completely away or a compromise carving modification that results in an awkward bulge just aft of the canopy. My advice, since you're already carved the inside of the fuselage sides, is to modify the page 7-12 station 70.0 and station 89.0 carving profiles to leave more foam outboard of the longerons so that a smooth external shape can be achieved aft of the seatback bulkhead. (Too many words!)

Wing foam: make sure your wing foam has large enough surface pores for a good mechanical bond of the wing skins to the foam.

Epoxy: I am told that MGS-335 is NOT adequately fuel proof for fuel tanks. Be sure to use EZ-Poxy or Derakane 204 (or newer variant) for the inside of your fuel tank.


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Rob de Bie
 

Working from memory, the heat-up rates that I saw recommended for postcuring epoxy were way lower, like 3°C/h. Probably this was for free-standing products; in mold postcuring can be done more aggressively. Check your epoxy data sheet. For the rest it looks really good.

Rob

On 07 Apr 2021 20:58, Eugen Pilarski wrote:
Dear Q-Community,
thanks for your hints and comments. Again, great to get that feedback from you guys!
To post cure the Resin that I use for the Q1 Project (MGS LR385/LH386) it’s already a oven available that is used for the ASSO X-RAY Project (MGS LR285/LH285), please find below some Picture. It´s a full control heating process with some thermocouples and a customizing software solution (DIY).
It’s a easy construction of XPS elements, some cheap fans (Ebay 8$), two control cabinet heater from EBM Pabst (Ebay 20$), some bulbs (5 * 200W) and in the end a customizing fermentation controller (BrewiPI), please find below the link. https://www.brewpiremix.com <https://www.brewpiremix.com>  After all my aircrafts are in the air, maybe I will start to made my own beer :-)
To fit all parts of the Q1 in that oven it will be needed an extended version, if my buddy isn’t ready to go with his paint booth. So we will see……
The temperature will not rise more than 65°C, based on the Foam used in wing and canard area, for min. 15h but heat up 10°C/h (5h) and cool down with 10°C/h (5h).
So far all bulkheads are ready to go, just the seat bulkhead need to heat up (bending area) and fixed with resin/glass combo. The next step will be to contouring/cut out the bottom for fuselage. So far the temperature here in Germany will rise up a bit more, the glassing will start soon.
Best regards from Germany
Eugen

Am 07.04.2021 um 17:59 schrieb One Sky Dog via groups.io <http://groups.io> <Oneskydog=aol.com@groups.io <mailto:Oneskydog=aol.com@groups.io>>:

If your airplane gets above 150 F you will have other problems. 150 F cooks flesh. We post cure in aerospace because the designers cut the margins thin knowing we had proper process control.

No mold less construction airplane that I know of has had heat distortion problems post cure or not.

Much ado about a statistically non issue.

Time promotes cross linking and that is all post cures do is further cross linking.

Charlie






My you tube channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr3x6bkHUw1UUQ96ATcRFfg>

On Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 8:26 AM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@xs4all.nl <mailto:robdebie@xs4all.nl>> wrote:

> In any case, the way I see it, time is a partial substitute for temperature in the cure
reaction,
> and especially effective if you take a such a very long time to build like I did!  …..So
maybe I did
> post cure my wings after all.

I see your point, but as far as I know this does not apply to the glass-transition temperature.

Rob





Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Eugen Pilarski
 

Dear Q-Community,

thanks for your hints and comments. Again, great to get that feedback from you guys! 

To post cure the Resin that I use for the Q1 Project (MGS LR385/LH386) it’s already a oven available that is used for the ASSO X-RAY Project (MGS LR285/LH285), please find below some Picture. It´s a full control heating process with some thermocouples and a customizing software solution (DIY).

It’s a easy construction of XPS elements, some cheap fans (Ebay 8$), two control cabinet heater from EBM Pabst (Ebay 20$), some bulbs (5 * 200W) and in the end a customizing fermentation controller (BrewiPI), please find below the link. https://www.brewpiremix.com   After all my aircrafts are in the air, maybe I will start to made my own beer :-)

To fit all parts of the Q1 in that oven it will be needed an extended version, if my buddy isn’t ready to go with his paint booth. So we will see……

The temperature will not rise more than 65°C, based on the Foam used in wing and canard area, for min. 15h but heat up 10°C/h (5h) and cool down with 10°C/h (5h).

So far all bulkheads are ready to go, just the seat bulkhead need to heat up (bending area) and fixed with resin/glass combo. The next step will be to contouring/cut out the bottom for fuselage. So far the temperature here in Germany will rise up a bit more, the glassing will start soon.

Best regards from Germany

Eugen 



Am 07.04.2021 um 17:59 schrieb One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...>:

If your airplane gets above 150 F you will have other problems. 150 F cooks flesh. We post cure in aerospace because the designers cut the margins thin knowing we had proper process control.

No mold less construction airplane that I know of has had heat distortion problems post cure or not.

Much ado about a statistically non issue.

Time promotes cross linking and that is all post cures do is further cross linking. 

Charlie







On Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 8:26 AM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:

> In any case, the way I see it, time is a partial substitute for temperature in the cure reaction,
> and especially effective if you take a such a very long time to build like I did!  …..So maybe I did
> post cure my wings after all.

I see your point, but as far as I know this does not apply to the glass-transition temperature.

Rob






Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

John Hoxie
 

Looks extremely nice, Eugen. The glass is fine at a 45 degree bias to a 45 degree change in contour, especially vacuum bagged. You will have the lightest and strongest Quickie ever made. My 2 cents.

 
John Hoxie
He is no fool, who gives up what he can not keep, to gain what he can not loose -- Jim Elliot


On Tuesday, March 30, 2021, 12:46:23 PM MDT, <smeshno1@...> wrote:


 A Vanguard V, Briggs and Stratton. They are used in auto racing....with of course modifications to the innards.

This is Briggs & Stratton Slingshot Racing
www.youtube.com


 

 I've also seen these run in micro drag racing...pushing the limits of the internals but that is the nature of 
drag racing. Circle track looking to endurance. The racer telling how little has to be done to keep on the
track for an entire season is remarkable. Valve springs and oil changes after 60 hard running races!  


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 9:32 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
Nice!  What engine will you use?  Yep you will get a lot of sanding in the process!  
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Eugen Pilarski" <interbus@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:19:05 +0200

The fuselage of Q1 is coming up from the foam and the stuff is very sandy :-))

Some picture from the progress .....

Eugen







Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

One Sky Dog
 

If your airplane gets above 150 F you will have other problems. 150 F cooks flesh. We post cure in aerospace because the designers cut the margins thin knowing we had proper process control.

No mold less construction airplane that I know of has had heat distortion problems post cure or not.

Much ado about a statistically non issue.

Time promotes cross linking and that is all post cures do is further cross linking. 

Charlie

On Wednesday, April 7, 2021, 8:26 AM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:

> In any case, the way I see it, time is a partial substitute for temperature in the cure reaction,
> and especially effective if you take a such a very long time to build like I did!  …..So maybe I did
> post cure my wings after all.

I see your point, but as far as I know this does not apply to the glass-transition temperature.

Rob






Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Rob de Bie
 

In any case, the way I see it, time is a partial substitute for temperature in the cure reaction, and especially effective if you take a such a very long time to build like I did!  …..So maybe I did post cure my wings after all.
I see your point, but as far as I know this does not apply to the glass-transition temperature.

Rob


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Rob de Bie
 

Good question. I have been told that postcuring can be done a long time after room temperature cure. But I have never found confirmation of that in a book or paper. If I had all the time in the world, I would get some books on epoxy to answer that nagging question.

I did a big vehicle in carbon fiber, of which no part was post-cured before assembly. I did not feel comfortable with it, to be honest.

One thing I remember it anytime you drilled a hole, the material would feel rubbery, and had a smell. The rubbery part is logical: the drilling created heat that took the material beyond its Tg, so it actually got rubbery. I did not like it at all. Cutting with diamond tools, water cooled, was no problem though.

Rob

On 07 Apr 2021 01:26, Mike Steinsland wrote:
Just a question while you're on the topic.
I have a project that was started by someone else 30 years ago. I have no way of knowing if the canard and wing were post cured....judging from the builders workmanship I'm guessing it was.
 Is there a time limit for when the post curing should be done for it to be effective?
Cheers
Mike
On Tue., Apr. 6, 2021, 4:56 p.m. , <smeshno1@hotmail.com <mailto:smeshno1@hotmail.com>> wrote:
 The foam used by both other Rutan designs are acceptable. Be cautious of too high temperature
for "post cure".
65C= 149F    A bit of investigation is in order to assure foam damage will not result.
 The recommended method in the States for most builders is to paint 100% the entire upper
Flight surfaces with inexpensive
flat black lacquer such as from "rattle can", and only after supporting the entire surface with
the hot wired foam
kept from your billets you originally hot wired from, leave in the hot Summer sun for one full
day. Choose a day with no or little
wind.
 This relates only to the Canard and Wing. There is no harm in this method with foams used in
the past, or recently. There is no need to
 post cure the lower surface, nor the fuselage. The smaller surfaces are not of concern from
heat deformation.
  Why are you concerned about adding additional internal struts?  The Q1 has a structurally
stiff fuselage once completed. Perhaps Niklas
has information relating to the Kevlar methods used in Germany. Both of you will be working to
the weight restrictions in order
to certify for flight. Kevlar is stronger than carbon and if correctly bonded to the resin a
light yet robust aircraft will result. Sailplanes are stressed to higher G rating than powered
aircraft..it is well known that German sailplanes are very competitive indeed.
Vern Lehman
Mannford Oklahoma
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* main@Q-List.groups.io <mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io> <main@Q-List.groups.io
<mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io>> on behalf of Niklas Bostelmann <niklasbostelmann@gmail.com
<mailto:niklasbostelmann@gmail.com>>
*Sent:* Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:21 AM
*To:* main@q-list.groups.io <mailto:main@q-list.groups.io> <main@q-list.groups.io
<mailto:main@q-list.groups.io>>
*Subject:* Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
Hi there, hi Eugen, I worked on German Certified Aircrafts and there we used a special resin for
the Fuel Tank, it's not very great for laminating but it's the best resin for chemical/fuel
resistants. We first did the entire Layup with the resin but later switched to only coating the
finished fuel tank with a thick layer of the resin because it has a high viscosity it's not the
best for laminating.
https://shop1.r-g.de/en/art/120300 <https://shop1.r-g.de/en/art/120300>
That's where you can get the resin
I have some other projects going but hope to get time to start building my Q1 soon...
Greetings from Germany
Niklas
Eugen Pilarski <interbus@web.de <mailto:interbus@web.de>> schrieb am Di., 6. Apr. 2021, 11:42:
David,
thank you very much vor your email and the valuable information.
Please find in the attachment a cross section view from the fuselage that show which angle I
choice for conturing. The angle in the Q1 drawings show up a 30°, as it also be captured, so
I did it in the same way. The pictures from my past email deceive a bit, after some of the
experts asked me about it, I did made a test piece and measured that unit again, it fits.
But the countering area need some additional sanding to fit the requirements.
Thanks for the tip with the main wing and the fuselage. I think before I will shape the
fuselage, to build at first the main wing.  When these are available, then to form the
fuselage. Or I will make a matching molded piece of the main wing from this area, we'll see.
If necessary, it would be possible to insert a further struts in this area to support the
fuselage wall? Sufficient space would be available in the segment.
In the case of resin, I do not use MGS-335. My choice is HEXION MGS L385 and H 386 (aero
approved), but that need a subsequent tempering of all parts, what is already schedule.
Please find in the attachment a data sheet. My buddy has a paint booth with integrated
heating that allows a temperature of 65°. Do you have a source I can refer to that does not
confirm fuel resistance of the resin mentioned? I would be very interested in such a source.
Thank you very much.
The wing foam that I chose is come from the the same supplier like the LongEz and Cozy guys
here in Europe use, so it should be work for the Quickie too. But I will double check it too.
Best regards from Germany
Eugen

Am 06.04.2021 um 09:51 schrieb David J. Gall <David@Gall.com <mailto:David@Gall.com>>:

Eugen,

It appears that you machined a 45 degree bevel on the inside contouring of your fuselage
sides and bottom. The section A-A you refer to shows a much more shallow bevel. You MAY
encounter problems of break-through when contouring the outside of your fuselage. You WILL
encounter an awkwardness when contouring the outside of the fuselage at the seatback
bulkhead/main wing saddle area. The plans show the fuselage sides contoured to a
"knife-edge" thickness of foam at the longerons (page 7-12, Station 70.0 and station 89.0)
but immediately aft of the seatback bulkhead that knife edge has no longeron to support
its inboard edge (page 7-9) and you've carved away the foam below the main wing but ABOVE
the level where that knife edge line would continue aft of the seatback bulkhead. The
dashed lines in the plans on page 7-9 behind station 78.0 extend too high up the inside
wall of the fuselage side, causing the foam to be carved completely away or a compromise
carving modification that results in an awkward bulge just aft of the canopy. My advice,
since you're already carved the inside of the fuselage sides, is to modify the page 7-12
station 70.0 and station 89.0 carving profiles to leave more foam outboard of the
longerons so that a smooth external shape can be achieved aft of the seatback bulkhead.
(Too many words!)

Wing foam: make sure your wing foam has large enough surface pores for a good mechanical
bond of the wing skins to the foam.

Epoxy: I am told that MGS-335 is NOT adequately fuel proof for fuel tanks. Be sure to use
EZ-Poxy or Derakane 204 (or newer variant) for the inside of your fuel tank.


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Mike Steinsland
 

Ah, yea, that's what I thought.



Glad I have you guys with all that knowledge and the ability to also simplify it for me

Thanks again for the help!

On Tue., Apr. 6, 2021, 9:25 p.m. Jay Scheevel, <jay@...> wrote:

Hi Mike,

 

I did not post cure my wing and canard layups, but I did build them in West Texas in the hot part of the year, and I have photos of my shop thermometer well over 100 F right after finishing layups late in the evening. Better have some very quick friends to help  get the layup finished before it sets up (which I did). I have had no evidence of any creep or dimensional changes despite 30+ years of moving, storage, etc. I was always careful to store the flight surfaces fully supported and not stressed, so no twisting etc. 

 

Now for the “Charlie and Vern bait!”:

I do remember from my organic chemistry and engineering courses, there was such a thing as the Arrhenius equation. It is a rate equation that governs a lot of reactions and also physical deformation of rate dependent solids. The rate constant is proportional to some other constants raised to an exponent -Ea/RT, where Ea is the activation energy of the reaction and R is another constant, so basically once there is enough energy to activate the reaction, the rate is a constant , say C, raised to the power -1/T … C ^ (-1/T),  or 1/(C^(1/T)). T is absolute temperature in Kelvins (at room temperature is about 295 K). If we raise T the effect on the rate is proportional the exponent of the ratio of the two temps in Kelvin degrees.

 

We know the epoxy reaction is active at room temperature, so we are above the activation energy even at room temperature. Lower temperature just means that the rate is slower, higher temperature rate is faster (exponentially). Tg is also probably a function of the mobility of the reagents at any given temp…above my pay grade.

 

In any case, the way I see it, time is a partial substitute for temperature in the cure reaction, and especially effective if you take a such a very long time to build like I did!  …..So maybe I did post cure my wings after all. 😊

 

OK Charlie and Vern…Have at me!

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Steinsland
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2021 5:26 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io Group Moderators <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up

 

Just a question while you're on the topic.

I have a project that was started by someone else 30 years ago. I have no way of knowing if the canard and wing were post cured....judging from the builders workmanship I'm guessing it was.

 

 Is there a time limit for when the post curing should be done for it to be effective?

 

Cheers

Mike

 

On Tue., Apr. 6, 2021, 4:56 p.m. , <smeshno1@...> wrote:

 The foam used by both other Rutan designs are acceptable. Be cautious of too high temperature for "post cure". 

 

65C= 149F    A bit of investigation is in order to assure foam damage will not result.  

 

 The recommended method in the States for most builders is to paint 100% the entire upper Flight surfaces with inexpensive 

flat black lacquer such as from "rattle can", and only after supporting the entire surface with the hot wired foam 

kept from your billets you originally hot wired from, leave in the hot Summer sun for one full day. Choose a day with no or little 

wind.

 

 This relates only to the Canard and Wing. There is no harm in this method with foams used in the past, or recently. There is no need to 

 post cure the lower surface, nor the fuselage. The smaller surfaces are not of concern from heat deformation.  

 

  Why are you concerned about adding additional internal struts?  The Q1 has a structurally stiff fuselage once completed. Perhaps Niklas

has information relating to the Kevlar methods used in Germany. Both of you will be working to the weight restrictions in order

to certify for flight. Kevlar is stronger than carbon and if correctly bonded to the resin a light yet robust aircraft will result. Sailplanes are stressed to higher G rating than powered aircraft..it is well known that German sailplanes are very competitive indeed. 

 

Vern Lehman

Mannford Oklahoma

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Niklas Bostelmann <niklasbostelmann@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:21 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up

 

Hi there, hi Eugen, I worked on German Certified Aircrafts and there we used a special resin for the Fuel Tank, it's not very great for laminating but it's the best resin for chemical/fuel resistants. We first did the entire Layup with the resin but later switched to only coating the finished fuel tank with a thick layer of the resin because it has a high viscosity it's not the best for laminating.

 

 

That's where you can get the resin

 

I have some other projects going but hope to get time to start building my Q1 soon... 

 

Greetings from Germany

Niklas 

 

Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...> schrieb am Di., 6. Apr. 2021, 11:42:

David,

 

thank you very much vor your email and the valuable information.

 

Please find in the attachment a cross section view from the fuselage that show which angle I choice for conturing. The angle in the Q1 drawings show up a 30°, as it also be captured, so I did it in the same way. The pictures from my past email deceive a bit, after some of the experts asked me about it, I did made a test piece and measured that unit again, it fits. But the countering area need some additional sanding to fit the requirements. 

 

Thanks for the tip with the main wing and the fuselage. I think before I will shape the fuselage, to build at first the main wing.  When these are available, then to form the fuselage. Or I will make a matching molded piece of the main wing from this area, we'll see. If necessary, it would be possible to insert a further struts in this area to support the fuselage wall? Sufficient space would be available in the segment. 

 

In the case of resin, I do not use MGS-335. My choice is HEXION MGS L385 and H 386 (aero approved), but that need a subsequent tempering of all parts, what is already schedule. Please find in the attachment a data sheet. My buddy has a paint booth with integrated heating that allows a temperature of 65°. Do you have a source I can refer to that does not confirm fuel resistance of the resin mentioned? I would be very interested in such a source. Thank you very much.

 

The wing foam that I chose is come from the the same supplier like the LongEz and Cozy guys here in Europe use, so it should be work for the Quickie too. But I will double check it too.

 

Best regards from Germany

 

Eugen  

 

 



Am 06.04.2021 um 09:51 schrieb David J. Gall <David@...>:

 

Eugen,

It appears that you machined a 45 degree bevel on the inside contouring of your fuselage sides and bottom. The section A-A you refer to shows a much more shallow bevel. You MAY encounter problems of break-through when contouring the outside of your fuselage. You WILL encounter an awkwardness when contouring the outside of the fuselage at the seatback bulkhead/main wing saddle area. The plans show the fuselage sides contoured to a "knife-edge" thickness of foam at the longerons (page 7-12, Station 70.0 and station 89.0) but immediately aft of the seatback bulkhead that knife edge has no longeron to support its inboard edge (page 7-9) and you've carved away the foam below the main wing but ABOVE the level where that knife edge line would continue aft of the seatback bulkhead. The dashed lines in the plans on page 7-9 behind station 78.0 extend too high up the inside wall of the fuselage side, causing the foam to be carved completely away or a compromise carving modification that results in an awkward bulge just aft of the canopy. My advice, since you're already carved the inside of the fuselage sides, is to modify the page 7-12 station 70.0 and station 89.0 carving profiles to leave more foam outboard of the longerons so that a smooth external shape can be achieved aft of the seatback bulkhead. (Too many words!)

Wing foam: make sure your wing foam has large enough surface pores for a good mechanical bond of the wing skins to the foam.

Epoxy: I am told that MGS-335 is NOT adequately fuel proof for fuel tanks. Be sure to use EZ-Poxy or Derakane 204 (or newer variant) for the inside of your fuel tank.


Re: Resin volume placed on foam

boss.arsik007
 

a mockup

http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-082120a-space-shuttle-pathfinder-save-americas-treasures-grant.html


GU Q-2 Project available in Southern California

Phil Lankford
 

Yep. I have one and hangar inspection is coming up. I have a trailer capable of relocating locally. PM me if interested. 
Phil Lankford. 


On Mar 30, 2021, at 11:46 AM, smeshno1@... wrote:


 A Vanguard V, Briggs and Stratton. They are used in auto racing....with of course modifications to the innards.

This is Briggs & Stratton Slingshot Racing
www.youtube.com


 
<image.png>

 I've also seen these run in micro drag racing...pushing the limits of the internals but that is the nature of 
drag racing. Circle track looking to endurance. The racer telling how little has to be done to keep on the
track for an entire season is remarkable. Valve springs and oil changes after 60 hard running races!  


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 9:32 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
Nice!  What engine will you use?  Yep you will get a lot of sanding in the process!  
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Eugen Pilarski" <interbus@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:19:05 +0200

The fuselage of Q1 is coming up from the foam and the stuff is very sandy :-))

Some picture from the progress .....

Eugen







Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Jay Scheevel
 

Hi Mike,

 

I did not post cure my wing and canard layups, but I did build them in West Texas in the hot part of the year, and I have photos of my shop thermometer well over 100 F right after finishing layups late in the evening. Better have some very quick friends to help  get the layup finished before it sets up (which I did). I have had no evidence of any creep or dimensional changes despite 30+ years of moving, storage, etc. I was always careful to store the flight surfaces fully supported and not stressed, so no twisting etc. 

 

Now for the “Charlie and Vern bait!”:

I do remember from my organic chemistry and engineering courses, there was such a thing as the Arrhenius equation. It is a rate equation that governs a lot of reactions and also physical deformation of rate dependent solids. The rate constant is proportional to some other constants raised to an exponent -Ea/RT, where Ea is the activation energy of the reaction and R is another constant, so basically once there is enough energy to activate the reaction, the rate is a constant , say C, raised to the power -1/T … C ^ (-1/T),  or 1/(C^(1/T)). T is absolute temperature in Kelvins (at room temperature is about 295 K). If we raise T the effect on the rate is proportional the exponent of the ratio of the two temps in Kelvin degrees.

 

We know the epoxy reaction is active at room temperature, so we are above the activation energy even at room temperature. Lower temperature just means that the rate is slower, higher temperature rate is faster (exponentially). Tg is also probably a function of the mobility of the reagents at any given temp…above my pay grade.

 

In any case, the way I see it, time is a partial substitute for temperature in the cure reaction, and especially effective if you take a such a very long time to build like I did!  …..So maybe I did post cure my wings after all. 😊

 

OK Charlie and Vern…Have at me!

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Steinsland
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2021 5:26 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io Group Moderators <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up

 

Just a question while you're on the topic.

I have a project that was started by someone else 30 years ago. I have no way of knowing if the canard and wing were post cured....judging from the builders workmanship I'm guessing it was.

 

 Is there a time limit for when the post curing should be done for it to be effective?

 

Cheers

Mike

 

On Tue., Apr. 6, 2021, 4:56 p.m. , <smeshno1@...> wrote:

 The foam used by both other Rutan designs are acceptable. Be cautious of too high temperature for "post cure". 

 

65C= 149F    A bit of investigation is in order to assure foam damage will not result.  

 

 The recommended method in the States for most builders is to paint 100% the entire upper Flight surfaces with inexpensive 

flat black lacquer such as from "rattle can", and only after supporting the entire surface with the hot wired foam 

kept from your billets you originally hot wired from, leave in the hot Summer sun for one full day. Choose a day with no or little 

wind.

 

 This relates only to the Canard and Wing. There is no harm in this method with foams used in the past, or recently. There is no need to 

 post cure the lower surface, nor the fuselage. The smaller surfaces are not of concern from heat deformation.  

 

  Why are you concerned about adding additional internal struts?  The Q1 has a structurally stiff fuselage once completed. Perhaps Niklas

has information relating to the Kevlar methods used in Germany. Both of you will be working to the weight restrictions in order

to certify for flight. Kevlar is stronger than carbon and if correctly bonded to the resin a light yet robust aircraft will result. Sailplanes are stressed to higher G rating than powered aircraft..it is well known that German sailplanes are very competitive indeed. 

 

Vern Lehman

Mannford Oklahoma

 


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Niklas Bostelmann <niklasbostelmann@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:21 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up

 

Hi there, hi Eugen, I worked on German Certified Aircrafts and there we used a special resin for the Fuel Tank, it's not very great for laminating but it's the best resin for chemical/fuel resistants. We first did the entire Layup with the resin but later switched to only coating the finished fuel tank with a thick layer of the resin because it has a high viscosity it's not the best for laminating.

 

 

That's where you can get the resin

 

I have some other projects going but hope to get time to start building my Q1 soon... 

 

Greetings from Germany

Niklas 

 

Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...> schrieb am Di., 6. Apr. 2021, 11:42:

David,

 

thank you very much vor your email and the valuable information.

 

Please find in the attachment a cross section view from the fuselage that show which angle I choice for conturing. The angle in the Q1 drawings show up a 30°, as it also be captured, so I did it in the same way. The pictures from my past email deceive a bit, after some of the experts asked me about it, I did made a test piece and measured that unit again, it fits. But the countering area need some additional sanding to fit the requirements. 

 

Thanks for the tip with the main wing and the fuselage. I think before I will shape the fuselage, to build at first the main wing.  When these are available, then to form the fuselage. Or I will make a matching molded piece of the main wing from this area, we'll see. If necessary, it would be possible to insert a further struts in this area to support the fuselage wall? Sufficient space would be available in the segment. 

 

In the case of resin, I do not use MGS-335. My choice is HEXION MGS L385 and H 386 (aero approved), but that need a subsequent tempering of all parts, what is already schedule. Please find in the attachment a data sheet. My buddy has a paint booth with integrated heating that allows a temperature of 65°. Do you have a source I can refer to that does not confirm fuel resistance of the resin mentioned? I would be very interested in such a source. Thank you very much.

 

The wing foam that I chose is come from the the same supplier like the LongEz and Cozy guys here in Europe use, so it should be work for the Quickie too. But I will double check it too.

 

Best regards from Germany

 

Eugen  

 

 



Am 06.04.2021 um 09:51 schrieb David J. Gall <David@...>:

 

Eugen,

It appears that you machined a 45 degree bevel on the inside contouring of your fuselage sides and bottom. The section A-A you refer to shows a much more shallow bevel. You MAY encounter problems of break-through when contouring the outside of your fuselage. You WILL encounter an awkwardness when contouring the outside of the fuselage at the seatback bulkhead/main wing saddle area. The plans show the fuselage sides contoured to a "knife-edge" thickness of foam at the longerons (page 7-12, Station 70.0 and station 89.0) but immediately aft of the seatback bulkhead that knife edge has no longeron to support its inboard edge (page 7-9) and you've carved away the foam below the main wing but ABOVE the level where that knife edge line would continue aft of the seatback bulkhead. The dashed lines in the plans on page 7-9 behind station 78.0 extend too high up the inside wall of the fuselage side, causing the foam to be carved completely away or a compromise carving modification that results in an awkward bulge just aft of the canopy. My advice, since you're already carved the inside of the fuselage sides, is to modify the page 7-12 station 70.0 and station 89.0 carving profiles to leave more foam outboard of the longerons so that a smooth external shape can be achieved aft of the seatback bulkhead. (Too many words!)

Wing foam: make sure your wing foam has large enough surface pores for a good mechanical bond of the wing skins to the foam.

Epoxy: I am told that MGS-335 is NOT adequately fuel proof for fuel tanks. Be sure to use EZ-Poxy or Derakane 204 (or newer variant) for the inside of your fuel tank.


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

One Sky Dog
 

Styrofoam softens at 284 F Heat deflection temperature (HDT)and melts at 420-450 F 

Post curing epoxy can raise the HDT but if it was built with Safe-T-Poxy (dark brown color) it is already at 150 F. Post curing Safe-T-Poxy can raise the HDT to 196 F But you have to get it that hot to do it risky. I do not think the post curing which makes the epoxy crosslink a little more is worth the effort. Unless you are doing it in a controlled environment and instrumented you do not know if it even helped.

Advanced polymer composites manufacturing engineer opinion. I have never post cured Rutan style layups.

On Tuesday, April 6, 2021, 4:26 PM, Mike Steinsland <MIKESKUSTOMS@...> wrote:

Just a question while you're on the topic.
I have a project that was started by someone else 30 years ago. I have no way of knowing if the canard and wing were post cured....judging from the builders workmanship I'm guessing it was.

 Is there a time limit for when the post curing should be done for it to be effective?

Cheers
Mike

On Tue., Apr. 6, 2021, 4:56 p.m. , <smeshno1@...> wrote:
 The foam used by both other Rutan designs are acceptable. Be cautious of too high temperature for "post cure". 

65C= 149F    A bit of investigation is in order to assure foam damage will not result.  

 The recommended method in the States for most builders is to paint 100% the entire upper Flight surfaces with inexpensive 
flat black lacquer such as from "rattle can", and only after supporting the entire surface with the hot wired foam 
kept from your billets you originally hot wired from, leave in the hot Summer sun for one full day. Choose a day with no or little 
wind.

 This relates only to the Canard and Wing. There is no harm in this method with foams used in the past, or recently. There is no need to 
 post cure the lower surface, nor the fuselage. The smaller surfaces are not of concern from heat deformation.  

  Why are you concerned about adding additional internal struts?  The Q1 has a structurally stiff fuselage once completed. Perhaps Niklas
has information relating to the Kevlar methods used in Germany. Both of you will be working to the weight restrictions in order
to certify for flight. Kevlar is stronger than carbon and if correctly bonded to the resin a light yet robust aircraft will result. Sailplanes are stressed to higher G rating than powered aircraft..it is well known that German sailplanes are very competitive indeed. 

Vern Lehman
Mannford Oklahoma


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Niklas Bostelmann <niklasbostelmann@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:21 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
Hi there, hi Eugen, I worked on German Certified Aircrafts and there we used a special resin for the Fuel Tank, it's not very great for laminating but it's the best resin for chemical/fuel resistants. We first did the entire Layup with the resin but later switched to only coating the finished fuel tank with a thick layer of the resin because it has a high viscosity it's not the best for laminating.


That's where you can get the resin

I have some other projects going but hope to get time to start building my Q1 soon... 

Greetings from Germany
Niklas 

Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...> schrieb am Di., 6. Apr. 2021, 11:42:
David,

thank you very much vor your email and the valuable information.

Please find in the attachment a cross section view from the fuselage that show which angle I choice for conturing. The angle in the Q1 drawings show up a 30°, as it also be captured, so I did it in the same way. The pictures from my past email deceive a bit, after some of the experts asked me about it, I did made a test piece and measured that unit again, it fits. But the countering area need some additional sanding to fit the requirements. 

Thanks for the tip with the main wing and the fuselage. I think before I will shape the fuselage, to build at first the main wing.  When these are available, then to form the fuselage. Or I will make a matching molded piece of the main wing from this area, we'll see. If necessary, it would be possible to insert a further struts in this area to support the fuselage wall? Sufficient space would be available in the segment. 

In the case of resin, I do not use MGS-335. My choice is HEXION MGS L385 and H 386 (aero approved), but that need a subsequent tempering of all parts, what is already schedule. Please find in the attachment a data sheet. My buddy has a paint booth with integrated heating that allows a temperature of 65°. Do you have a source I can refer to that does not confirm fuel resistance of the resin mentioned? I would be very interested in such a source. Thank you very much.

The wing foam that I chose is come from the the same supplier like the LongEz and Cozy guys here in Europe use, so it should be work for the Quickie too. But I will double check it too.

Best regards from Germany

Eugen  



Am 06.04.2021 um 09:51 schrieb David J. Gall <David@...>:

Eugen,

It appears that you machined a 45 degree bevel on the inside contouring of your fuselage sides and bottom. The section A-A you refer to shows a much more shallow bevel. You MAY encounter problems of break-through when contouring the outside of your fuselage. You WILL encounter an awkwardness when contouring the outside of the fuselage at the seatback bulkhead/main wing saddle area. The plans show the fuselage sides contoured to a "knife-edge" thickness of foam at the longerons (page 7-12, Station 70.0 and station 89.0) but immediately aft of the seatback bulkhead that knife edge has no longeron to support its inboard edge (page 7-9) and you've carved away the foam below the main wing but ABOVE the level where that knife edge line would continue aft of the seatback bulkhead. The dashed lines in the plans on page 7-9 behind station 78.0 extend too high up the inside wall of the fuselage side, causing the foam to be carved completely away or a compromise carving modification that results in an awkward bulge just aft of the canopy. My advice, since you're already carved the inside of the fuselage sides, is to modify the page 7-12 station 70.0 and station 89.0 carving profiles to leave more foam outboard of the longerons so that a smooth external shape can be achieved aft of the seatback bulkhead. (Too many words!)

Wing foam: make sure your wing foam has large enough surface pores for a good mechanical bond of the wing skins to the foam.

Epoxy: I am told that MGS-335 is NOT adequately fuel proof for fuel tanks. Be sure to use EZ-Poxy or Derakane 204 (or newer variant) for the inside of your fuel tank.


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Mike Steinsland
 

Just a question while you're on the topic.
I have a project that was started by someone else 30 years ago. I have no way of knowing if the canard and wing were post cured....judging from the builders workmanship I'm guessing it was.

 Is there a time limit for when the post curing should be done for it to be effective?

Cheers
Mike

On Tue., Apr. 6, 2021, 4:56 p.m. , <smeshno1@...> wrote:
 The foam used by both other Rutan designs are acceptable. Be cautious of too high temperature for "post cure". 

65C= 149F    A bit of investigation is in order to assure foam damage will not result.  

 The recommended method in the States for most builders is to paint 100% the entire upper Flight surfaces with inexpensive 
flat black lacquer such as from "rattle can", and only after supporting the entire surface with the hot wired foam 
kept from your billets you originally hot wired from, leave in the hot Summer sun for one full day. Choose a day with no or little 
wind.

 This relates only to the Canard and Wing. There is no harm in this method with foams used in the past, or recently. There is no need to 
 post cure the lower surface, nor the fuselage. The smaller surfaces are not of concern from heat deformation.  

  Why are you concerned about adding additional internal struts?  The Q1 has a structurally stiff fuselage once completed. Perhaps Niklas
has information relating to the Kevlar methods used in Germany. Both of you will be working to the weight restrictions in order
to certify for flight. Kevlar is stronger than carbon and if correctly bonded to the resin a light yet robust aircraft will result. Sailplanes are stressed to higher G rating than powered aircraft..it is well known that German sailplanes are very competitive indeed. 

Vern Lehman
Mannford Oklahoma


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Niklas Bostelmann <niklasbostelmann@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:21 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
Hi there, hi Eugen, I worked on German Certified Aircrafts and there we used a special resin for the Fuel Tank, it's not very great for laminating but it's the best resin for chemical/fuel resistants. We first did the entire Layup with the resin but later switched to only coating the finished fuel tank with a thick layer of the resin because it has a high viscosity it's not the best for laminating.


That's where you can get the resin

I have some other projects going but hope to get time to start building my Q1 soon... 

Greetings from Germany
Niklas 

Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...> schrieb am Di., 6. Apr. 2021, 11:42:
David,

thank you very much vor your email and the valuable information.

Please find in the attachment a cross section view from the fuselage that show which angle I choice for conturing. The angle in the Q1 drawings show up a 30°, as it also be captured, so I did it in the same way. The pictures from my past email deceive a bit, after some of the experts asked me about it, I did made a test piece and measured that unit again, it fits. But the countering area need some additional sanding to fit the requirements. 

Thanks for the tip with the main wing and the fuselage. I think before I will shape the fuselage, to build at first the main wing.  When these are available, then to form the fuselage. Or I will make a matching molded piece of the main wing from this area, we'll see. If necessary, it would be possible to insert a further struts in this area to support the fuselage wall? Sufficient space would be available in the segment. 

In the case of resin, I do not use MGS-335. My choice is HEXION MGS L385 and H 386 (aero approved), but that need a subsequent tempering of all parts, what is already schedule. Please find in the attachment a data sheet. My buddy has a paint booth with integrated heating that allows a temperature of 65°. Do you have a source I can refer to that does not confirm fuel resistance of the resin mentioned? I would be very interested in such a source. Thank you very much.

The wing foam that I chose is come from the the same supplier like the LongEz and Cozy guys here in Europe use, so it should be work for the Quickie too. But I will double check it too.

Best regards from Germany

Eugen  



Am 06.04.2021 um 09:51 schrieb David J. Gall <David@...>:

Eugen,

It appears that you machined a 45 degree bevel on the inside contouring of your fuselage sides and bottom. The section A-A you refer to shows a much more shallow bevel. You MAY encounter problems of break-through when contouring the outside of your fuselage. You WILL encounter an awkwardness when contouring the outside of the fuselage at the seatback bulkhead/main wing saddle area. The plans show the fuselage sides contoured to a "knife-edge" thickness of foam at the longerons (page 7-12, Station 70.0 and station 89.0) but immediately aft of the seatback bulkhead that knife edge has no longeron to support its inboard edge (page 7-9) and you've carved away the foam below the main wing but ABOVE the level where that knife edge line would continue aft of the seatback bulkhead. The dashed lines in the plans on page 7-9 behind station 78.0 extend too high up the inside wall of the fuselage side, causing the foam to be carved completely away or a compromise carving modification that results in an awkward bulge just aft of the canopy. My advice, since you're already carved the inside of the fuselage sides, is to modify the page 7-12 station 70.0 and station 89.0 carving profiles to leave more foam outboard of the longerons so that a smooth external shape can be achieved aft of the seatback bulkhead. (Too many words!)

Wing foam: make sure your wing foam has large enough surface pores for a good mechanical bond of the wing skins to the foam.

Epoxy: I am told that MGS-335 is NOT adequately fuel proof for fuel tanks. Be sure to use EZ-Poxy or Derakane 204 (or newer variant) for the inside of your fuel tank.


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

smeshno1@...
 

 The foam used by both other Rutan designs are acceptable. Be cautious of too high temperature for "post cure". 

65C= 149F    A bit of investigation is in order to assure foam damage will not result.  

 The recommended method in the States for most builders is to paint 100% the entire upper Flight surfaces with inexpensive 
flat black lacquer such as from "rattle can", and only after supporting the entire surface with the hot wired foam 
kept from your billets you originally hot wired from, leave in the hot Summer sun for one full day. Choose a day with no or little 
wind.

 This relates only to the Canard and Wing. There is no harm in this method with foams used in the past, or recently. There is no need to 
 post cure the lower surface, nor the fuselage. The smaller surfaces are not of concern from heat deformation.  

  Why are you concerned about adding additional internal struts?  The Q1 has a structurally stiff fuselage once completed. Perhaps Niklas
has information relating to the Kevlar methods used in Germany. Both of you will be working to the weight restrictions in order
to certify for flight. Kevlar is stronger than carbon and if correctly bonded to the resin a light yet robust aircraft will result. Sailplanes are stressed to higher G rating than powered aircraft..it is well known that German sailplanes are very competitive indeed. 

Vern Lehman
Mannford Oklahoma


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Niklas Bostelmann <niklasbostelmann@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 5:21 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q1 Fuselage comes up
 
Hi there, hi Eugen, I worked on German Certified Aircrafts and there we used a special resin for the Fuel Tank, it's not very great for laminating but it's the best resin for chemical/fuel resistants. We first did the entire Layup with the resin but later switched to only coating the finished fuel tank with a thick layer of the resin because it has a high viscosity it's not the best for laminating.


That's where you can get the resin

I have some other projects going but hope to get time to start building my Q1 soon... 

Greetings from Germany
Niklas 

Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...> schrieb am Di., 6. Apr. 2021, 11:42:
David,

thank you very much vor your email and the valuable information.

Please find in the attachment a cross section view from the fuselage that show which angle I choice for conturing. The angle in the Q1 drawings show up a 30°, as it also be captured, so I did it in the same way. The pictures from my past email deceive a bit, after some of the experts asked me about it, I did made a test piece and measured that unit again, it fits. But the countering area need some additional sanding to fit the requirements. 

Thanks for the tip with the main wing and the fuselage. I think before I will shape the fuselage, to build at first the main wing.  When these are available, then to form the fuselage. Or I will make a matching molded piece of the main wing from this area, we'll see. If necessary, it would be possible to insert a further struts in this area to support the fuselage wall? Sufficient space would be available in the segment. 

In the case of resin, I do not use MGS-335. My choice is HEXION MGS L385 and H 386 (aero approved), but that need a subsequent tempering of all parts, what is already schedule. Please find in the attachment a data sheet. My buddy has a paint booth with integrated heating that allows a temperature of 65°. Do you have a source I can refer to that does not confirm fuel resistance of the resin mentioned? I would be very interested in such a source. Thank you very much.

The wing foam that I chose is come from the the same supplier like the LongEz and Cozy guys here in Europe use, so it should be work for the Quickie too. But I will double check it too.

Best regards from Germany

Eugen  



Am 06.04.2021 um 09:51 schrieb David J. Gall <David@...>:

Eugen,

It appears that you machined a 45 degree bevel on the inside contouring of your fuselage sides and bottom. The section A-A you refer to shows a much more shallow bevel. You MAY encounter problems of break-through when contouring the outside of your fuselage. You WILL encounter an awkwardness when contouring the outside of the fuselage at the seatback bulkhead/main wing saddle area. The plans show the fuselage sides contoured to a "knife-edge" thickness of foam at the longerons (page 7-12, Station 70.0 and station 89.0) but immediately aft of the seatback bulkhead that knife edge has no longeron to support its inboard edge (page 7-9) and you've carved away the foam below the main wing but ABOVE the level where that knife edge line would continue aft of the seatback bulkhead. The dashed lines in the plans on page 7-9 behind station 78.0 extend too high up the inside wall of the fuselage side, causing the foam to be carved completely away or a compromise carving modification that results in an awkward bulge just aft of the canopy. My advice, since you're already carved the inside of the fuselage sides, is to modify the page 7-12 station 70.0 and station 89.0 carving profiles to leave more foam outboard of the longerons so that a smooth external shape can be achieved aft of the seatback bulkhead. (Too many words!)

Wing foam: make sure your wing foam has large enough surface pores for a good mechanical bond of the wing skins to the foam.

Epoxy: I am told that MGS-335 is NOT adequately fuel proof for fuel tanks. Be sure to use EZ-Poxy or Derakane 204 (or newer variant) for the inside of your fuel tank.


Re: Q1 Fuselage comes up

Rob de Bie
 

Eugen, I think it's great that you will postcure your epoxy. I would do the same, since room temperature cured epoxy has a way too low glass transition temperature (Tg). Also, generally speaking, epoxy does not develop its full strength at room temperature. I've seen stress-strain curves of RT-cured and post-cured epoxy, and the difference is huge.

However, be sure to ramp your paint booth temperature carefully, so that you do not exceed the then-current Tg.

Another comment is that it is quite difficult to post-cure everything on your aircraft. As soon as you make a small repair, or add something, you have a non-postcured part on a postcured airframe. The same goes for epoxy glue joints by the way. You can solve that by building a local post-curing 'tent' and heat that. But it takes some discipline and thinking to keep the whole airframe postcured.

Rob

On 06 Apr 2021 11:41, Eugen Pilarski wrote:
David,
thank you very much vor your email and the valuable information.
Please find in the attachment a cross section view from the fuselage that show which angle I choice for conturing. The angle in the Q1 drawings show up a 30°, as it also be captured, so I did it in the same way. The pictures from my past email deceive a bit, after some of the experts asked me about it, I did made a test piece and measured that unit again, it fits. But the countering area need some additional sanding to fit the requirements.
Thanks for the tip with the main wing and the fuselage. I think before I will shape the fuselage, to build at first the main wing.  When these are available, then to form the fuselage. Or I will make a matching molded piece of the main wing from this area, we'll see. If necessary, it would be possible to insert a further struts in this area to support the fuselage wall? Sufficient space would be available in the segment.
In the case of resin, I do not use MGS-335. My choice is HEXION MGS L385 and H 386 (aero approved), but that need a subsequent tempering of all parts, what is already schedule. Please find in the attachment a data sheet. My buddy has a paint booth with integrated heating that allows a temperature of 65°. Do you have a source I can refer to that does not confirm fuel resistance of the resin mentioned? I would be very interested in such a source. Thank you very much.
The wing foam that I chose is come from the the same supplier like the LongEz and Cozy guys here in Europe use, so it should be work for the Quickie too. But I will double check it too.
Best regards from Germany
Eugen

Am 06.04.2021 um 09:51 schrieb David J. Gall <David@Gall.com <mailto:David@Gall.com>>:

Eugen,

It appears that you machined a 45 degree bevel on the inside contouring of your fuselage sides and bottom. The section A-A you refer to shows a much more shallow bevel. You MAY encounter problems of break-through when contouring the outside of your fuselage. You WILL encounter an awkwardness when contouring the outside of the fuselage at the seatback bulkhead/main wing saddle area. The plans show the fuselage sides contoured to a "knife-edge" thickness of foam at the longerons (page 7-12, Station 70.0 and station 89.0) but immediately aft of the seatback bulkhead that knife edge has no longeron to support its inboard edge (page 7-9) and you've carved away the foam below the main wing but ABOVE the level where that knife edge line would continue aft of the seatback bulkhead. The dashed lines in the plans on page 7-9 behind station 78.0 extend too high up the inside wall of the fuselage side, causing the foam to be carved completely away or a compromise carving modification that results in an awkward bulge just aft of the canopy. My advice, since you're already carved the inside of the fuselage sides, is to modify the page 7-12 station 70.0 and station 89.0 carving profiles to leave more foam outboard of the longerons so that a smooth external shape can be achieved aft of the seatback bulkhead. (Too many words!)

Wing foam: make sure your wing foam has large enough surface pores for a good mechanical bond of the wing skins to the foam.

Epoxy: I am told that MGS-335 is NOT adequately fuel proof for fuel tanks. Be sure to use EZ-Poxy or Derakane 204 (or newer variant) for the inside of your fuel tank.

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