Date   

Re: Quickie Q1 - Canard

David J. Gall
 

Eugen,

 

Read the plans as though the following image is a single page. The first paragraph shown here refers to the LAST drawing shown here and a drawing not shown here that is at the bottom of page 5-3; by use of the word “faced” the authors mean the 1.2” dimension that causes the blocks to become parallelograms in top view. This paragraph also refers to the outboard canard cores that are shown on page 5-4 (not shown here).

 

You ask: “Is it correct that the width of the middle segment is 42"?” The answer is “NO.” The second paragraph shown here refers to the FIRST drawing shown here. This is the center section and is only 20” span (width).

 

These blocks are all made from 7” x 14” x 41” blocks that were supplied in the kit; there are extra lines on all these drawings that indicate the joints where blocks need to be glued together to achieve the needed block size before hot-wiring. If you are using source blocks of different sizes, your joint lines may differ, but I point this out to help eliminate the confusion that may be caused by these lines.

 

The third paragraph shown here has no associated drawing. The cut line 20-A-B-C-D-E-23 is shown on the hot-wire templates and should be self-explanatory.

 

The fourth paragraph shown here refers to additional drawings (not shown here) that appear on page 5-3.

 

Finally, the cut line 33-F-G-H-I-32 removes the aft part of the canard center section that will be contained entirely within the fuselage. The templates are the same as are used for the portions of the canard outboard of the fuselage thus requiring this aft part for aerodynamic and structural support of the elevators, but within the fuselage this part is not only not required but would interfere with the elevator control torque tubes if retained, so is cut off along the 33-F-G-H-I-32 line.

 

 

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eugen Pilarski
Sent: Sunday, October 3, 2021 1:15 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Quickie Q1 - Canard

 

Hello Q-Groupe,

we are just about to cut the canard out of the foam. What is not clear to me at the moment is why the separation of the rear segments in the middle segment has to take place along line 33-F-G-H-32? For the part of the middle segment where it is connected to the fuselage it is clear, but beyond that? Attached is an excerpt.  The page in the Plans ist 5 - 2. 

 

Is it correct that the width of the middle segment is 42"? 

Best regards

Eugen 



Re: Quickie Q1 - Canard

 

I believe they have you wrap that with fiberglass sheet to create a spar and shear web.


On Sun, Oct 3, 2021, 3:15 AM Eugen Pilarski <interbus@...> wrote:
Hello Q-Groupe,

we are just about to cut the canard out of the foam. What is not clear to me at the moment is why the separation of the rear segments in the middle segment has to take place along line 33-F-G-H-32? For the part of the middle segment where it is connected to the fuselage it is clear, but beyond that? Attached is an excerpt.  The page in the Plans ist 5 - 2. 
 
Is it correct that the width of the middle segment is 42"? 

Best regards

Eugen 


Quickie Q1 - Canard

Eugen Pilarski
 

Hello Q-Groupe,

we are just about to cut the canard out of the foam. What is not clear to me at the moment is why the separation of the rear segments in the middle segment has to take place along line 33-F-G-H-32? For the part of the middle segment where it is connected to the fuselage it is clear, but beyond that? Attached is an excerpt.  The page in the Plans ist 5 - 2. 
 
Is it correct that the width of the middle segment is 42"? 

Best regards

Eugen 


Re: New Group Member

One Sky Dog
 

Laminar flow separation bubble, VG’s disrupt this and are less drag than the separation bubble.

On Friday, October 1, 2021, 11:17 PM, Brent Sherstan <brent.sherstan@...> wrote:

That’s some great info. Thanks Chris!

Brent


Re: New Group Member

Brent Sherstan
 

That’s some great info. Thanks Chris!

Brent


Re: New Group Member

Chris Walterson
 

Brent---------------  If you google " VGs placement on a Dragonfly"  you should get some good information.

 We had a fellow named Nathan Rambo that did some good testing on VGs. They apply to the Dragonfly and the Quickie.

 My VGs are from root to tip and they are spaced 4 inches between pairs. I think they are angled at 15 degrees to the wind.

 I had made a template with slots out of thick plastic to hold about ten pairs in place. Tape down the template, install some clear silicon on the Vg and slide it in place. Do ten pair at a time and then move on.  These are the ones on my Super Quickie -- Take care-------------  Chris



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Re: New Group Member

Frankenbird Vern
 

I had a few interesting conversations when I trailered the dismantled aircraft back to Oklahoma from Northern Alabama. A few of the curious at the benzine stations wanting to know about "that Cub" and seeing the Maple Leaf symbol asked me if I spoke English or not..  

  My true nature is a bit on the ornery side (on the ground..I am a lot more serious in the air).  I was tempted to use my German or some of the Russian I know to respond, but kept my ornery part under control. 

I was raised partially with my Grandfather who immigrated to the States in 1910 from Dresden. He spoke English but preferred German with me in the Shop. Grandma (she was born and raised American) insisted we speak only English. He and his father were blacksmiths by trade, and my Grandfather in the States found work with the railroad repairing locomotives. His shop both at work and home was a wonderful place for me! 

 My wife, Larisa, is from Russia (born in Uzbekistan, USSR). She is a dual citizen but even after being married for 10 years now we communicate in a mix of both English and Russian languages. 

 It is true a testing of the devises would be of interest to all the Canard family. The aerodynamics involved are a more important factor than in conventional designs. In our case Brent..protecting lift in the GU airfoil is the most serious factor. Since I plan on limiting the energy available at the prop flange to around 110 hp, the efficiency in aerodynamics is what I seek. The Corvair is also limited in the allowable weight of the propeller..so a constant speed or in flight pitch controlled is not going to be possible. 

 I'll be flying the Frankenbird from a flat, wide, and no obstruction runway in Cushing Oklahoma. About 35 miles one way from my home location.  I can keep the fabric from 654MM if you like :-)  Maybe mail them so you can model from them?      


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Brent Sherstan <brent.sherstan@...>
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 12:17 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] New Group Member
 

Another interesting tuft test, vortilators vs regular, singular VG’s…

That’s a nice looking Maple Leaf, I may need something like that on my tail!

Brent


Re: New Group Member

Brent Sherstan
 

Another interesting tuft test, vortilators vs regular, singular VG’s…

That’s a nice looking Maple Leaf, I may need something like that on my tail!

Brent


Re: New Group Member

Frankenbird Vern
 

 Camera angles?...but I agree, Jay. Charlie you and Brent locations do look the same or close to the same chord line position. The vortex generators on Brents canard are from another supplier that I remember claimed a stronger laminar attachment. I am not an experienced aerodynamic geek as someone like John Roncz. The simple version on Charlies canard are what I've seen on just about every production machine of course with various sizes involved. I do like the idea of the polycarbonate versions. 

 My Capella XS2 has the small rounded nose aluminum "tee" generators. OUCH to the fingers! You get the picture. Those were added in part because the aircraft at one time lived in Utah and the builder was a STOL enthusiast. Included is a photo of 654MM.. but the vortex generators cannot be seen unfortunatly.

 It will be interesting to see what it will do with the Corvair in the nose. I plan on leaving the generators as they were placed when I bought the aircraft. They are about 25% of Chord..simple things..not vortilators.

 One of my wifes ambitions was to earn her LSA in the Capella. She also wants a seaplane rating..which in this part of Oklahoma is a desirable certification. Mannford is on the shore of one of the large lakes in Eastern Oklahoma, and I have rent access to one of the boat houses in a private home setting.

  The amphibious floats  would be a good fit from Zenith, same as used on the 701 series. I wouldn't mind adding an uncommon (to the Midwest anyway) rating to my Private as well.. 

 Brent..don't get too excited observing the Maple Leaf on the Vertical Stab of 654MM.  The aircraft will be recovered...need to see what is under the fabric. The aircraft does have a damage history.     


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 9:47 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] New Group Member
 

Looks like your along-the-chord placement is not too different from Brent’s.  I think the two-sided ones, like on Brent’s canard are referred to as vortilators, but someone (Vern?) can correct me if I am wrong on that.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 5:59 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] New Group Member

 

Ok my memory failed here is my VG’s in flight. Single alternating angles worked fine in light rain. Never sought out heavy rain to test that.

 

 

Inline image

 

I like the small plastic ones 

 

Home 

 

 


Home

Welcome to STOLSPEED Vortex Generators! Please

 



One Sky Dog


 

On Thursday, September 30, 2021, 10:04 PM, Brent Sherstan <brent.sherstan@...> wrote:

Here’s my VG’s, they are definitely aft of the curvature peak. Judging by the tuft testing that Jay shared, I suspect they’d be in dirty air by the time I’m close to stall and not doing anything. Conducting my own tuft testing would be interesting though before I pull them off. And I agree that you want the minimum amount of VG’s as possible, just need to do more testing.

Brent


Re: New Group Member

Jay Scheevel
 

Looks like your along-the-chord placement is not too different from Brent’s.  I think the two-sided ones, like on Brent’s canard are referred to as vortilators, but someone (Vern?) can correct me if I am wrong on that.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of One Sky Dog via groups.io
Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 5:59 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] New Group Member

 

Ok my memory failed here is my VG’s in flight. Single alternating angles worked fine in light rain. Never sought out heavy rain to test that.

 

 

Inline image

 

I like the small plastic ones 

 

Home 

 

 


Home

Welcome to STOLSPEED Vortex Generators! Please

 



One Sky Dog


 

On Thursday, September 30, 2021, 10:04 PM, Brent Sherstan <brent.sherstan@...> wrote:

Here’s my VG’s, they are definitely aft of the curvature peak. Judging by the tuft testing that Jay shared, I suspect they’d be in dirty air by the time I’m close to stall and not doing anything. Conducting my own tuft testing would be interesting though before I pull them off. And I agree that you want the minimum amount of VG’s as possible, just need to do more testing.

Brent


Re: New Group Member

One Sky Dog
 

Ok my memory failed here is my VG’s in flight. Single alternating angles worked fine in light rain. Never sought out heavy rain to test that.


Inline image

I like the small plastic ones 

On Thursday, September 30, 2021, 10:04 PM, Brent Sherstan <brent.sherstan@...> wrote:

Here’s my VG’s, they are definitely aft of the curvature peak. Judging by the tuft testing that Jay shared, I suspect they’d be in dirty air by the time I’m close to stall and not doing anything. Conducting my own tuft testing would be interesting though before I pull them off. And I agree that you want the minimum amount of VG’s as possible, just need to do more testing.

Brent


Re: New Group Member

Brent Sherstan
 

Here’s my VG’s, they are definitely aft of the curvature peak. Judging by the tuft testing that Jay shared, I suspect they’d be in dirty air by the time I’m close to stall and not doing anything. Conducting my own tuft testing would be interesting though before I pull them off. And I agree that you want the minimum amount of VG’s as possible, just need to do more testing.

Brent


Re: Revmaster cht

Brent Sherstan
 

Interesting. I’ve checked and rechecked the sensors but I just didn’t think the numbers were believable, but maybe they’re accurate after all. 


I spoke to a tech at MGL avionics this week and he recommended the way you’re doing it; connect the wires at the end and stick them in the hole. Except that he suggested not letting them touch the metal, apparently that can change the reading. He recommended covering them in a thermally conductive epoxy then putting that in the hole. Just FYI.

Brent 


Re: New Group Member

Frankenbird Vern
 

Ok..I'll follow suit. Thank you, Charlie


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2021 9:36 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] New Group Member
 
Vern,

I had VG’s root to tip. I tried to avoid them but got tired of moisture affects. They did not slow me down and do not add profile drag at 50% chord.

I have not flown the replacement canard and have not put them on yet.

Charlie 





On Thursday, September 30, 2021, 6:25 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 Charlie..do you have your generators root to tip? Chris..I too have the GU canard so I am questioning only in order to know the minimum limits.

 Something the John Roncz said to me one day kinda stuck in my mind.. he was explaining the doo dads we would have to install on Starship and of course if you look on the delivered aircraft they have vortex generators and later.. fences.

  John was talking to several of us in Department 123 (Starship R&D, Beech Field Plant 4) and who were also builders of various Rutan based designs (I had a Cozy, first generation), John Bingham had a Q1 in build at the time and two other Engineering fellows had Long-eze's. We were off to the side where the conversations were between us and not the rest for the crew..who had no particular interest in anything aviation except to be paid each week. 

 Anyway..John told us that Starship really did not need as many generators as we were instructed to install by Raytheon Aerodynamics..that they were actually adding drag and he was wanting to do flight testing to determine the correct minimum required.

  Raytheon suits shut him down on that idea due to wanting to certify asap..  The other factor he brought up, and it was a valid one, is biz aircraft have to fly in ice and bad weather. The generators make excellent ice collectors!! One can see where this is going. He was REALLY worried that the aircraft would simply stop aviating..turning into a kamakazi ice tree.   

 The aircraft had "weeping" titanium leading edges..it cost a fortune to shoot micro holes in them with a laser drill.. Heated leading edges were considered not a good idea on a fully composite aircraft. That antifreeze shit didn't work very well either..imagine chunks of antifreezed ice popping off the leading edges right into the 4 bladed fans aft of the wings!!  The PT6A's don't like eating ice either but at least they could deal with it.  

 I once told Robert Sheerer who owns NC53 to stay well clear of any lightening and NEVER fly in icing.

 Just wondering how few we can fly with.

Vern      


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Chris Walterson <dkeats@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2021 7:40 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] New Group Member
 
 This is how mine are. The airplane is a Dragonfly, but the airfoil is
GU. ----------- Chris



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Re: New Group Member

One Sky Dog
 

Vern,

I had VG’s root to tip. I tried to avoid them but got tired of moisture affects. They did not slow me down and do not add profile drag at 50% chord.

I have not flown the replacement canard and have not put them on yet.

On Thursday, September 30, 2021, 6:25 PM, smeshno1@... wrote:

 Charlie..do you have your generators root to tip? Chris..I too have the GU canard so I am questioning only in order to know the minimum limits.

 Something the John Roncz said to me one day kinda stuck in my mind.. he was explaining the doo dads we would have to install on Starship and of course if you look on the delivered aircraft they have vortex generators and later.. fences.

  John was talking to several of us in Department 123 (Starship R&D, Beech Field Plant 4) and who were also builders of various Rutan based designs (I had a Cozy, first generation), John Bingham had a Q1 in build at the time and two other Engineering fellows had Long-eze's. We were off to the side where the conversations were between us and not the rest for the crew..who had no particular interest in anything aviation except to be paid each week. 

 Anyway..John told us that Starship really did not need as many generators as we were instructed to install by Raytheon Aerodynamics..that they were actually adding drag and he was wanting to do flight testing to determine the correct minimum required.

  Raytheon suits shut him down on that idea due to wanting to certify asap..  The other factor he brought up, and it was a valid one, is biz aircraft have to fly in ice and bad weather. The generators make excellent ice collectors!! One can see where this is going. He was REALLY worried that the aircraft would simply stop aviating..turning into a kamakazi ice tree.   

 The aircraft had "weeping" titanium leading edges..it cost a fortune to shoot micro holes in them with a laser drill.. Heated leading edges were considered not a good idea on a fully composite aircraft. That antifreeze shit didn't work very well either..imagine chunks of antifreezed ice popping off the leading edges right into the 4 bladed fans aft of the wings!!  The PT6A's don't like eating ice either but at least they could deal with it.  

 I once told Robert Sheerer who owns NC53 to stay well clear of any lightening and NEVER fly in icing.

 Just wondering how few we can fly with.

Vern      


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Chris Walterson <dkeats@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2021 7:40 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] New Group Member
 
 This is how mine are. The airplane is a Dragonfly, but the airfoil is
GU. ----------- Chris



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Re: New Group Member

Frankenbird Vern
 

 Charlie..do you have your generators root to tip? Chris..I too have the GU canard so I am questioning only in order to know the minimum limits.

 Something the John Roncz said to me one day kinda stuck in my mind.. he was explaining the doo dads we would have to install on Starship and of course if you look on the delivered aircraft they have vortex generators and later.. fences.

  John was talking to several of us in Department 123 (Starship R&D, Beech Field Plant 4) and who were also builders of various Rutan based designs (I had a Cozy, first generation), John Bingham had a Q1 in build at the time and two other Engineering fellows had Long-eze's. We were off to the side where the conversations were between us and not the rest for the crew..who had no particular interest in anything aviation except to be paid each week. 

 Anyway..John told us that Starship really did not need as many generators as we were instructed to install by Raytheon Aerodynamics..that they were actually adding drag and he was wanting to do flight testing to determine the correct minimum required.

  Raytheon suits shut him down on that idea due to wanting to certify asap..  The other factor he brought up, and it was a valid one, is biz aircraft have to fly in ice and bad weather. The generators make excellent ice collectors!! One can see where this is going. He was REALLY worried that the aircraft would simply stop aviating..turning into a kamakazi ice tree.   

 The aircraft had "weeping" titanium leading edges..it cost a fortune to shoot micro holes in them with a laser drill.. Heated leading edges were considered not a good idea on a fully composite aircraft. That antifreeze shit didn't work very well either..imagine chunks of antifreezed ice popping off the leading edges right into the 4 bladed fans aft of the wings!!  The PT6A's don't like eating ice either but at least they could deal with it.  

 I once told Robert Sheerer who owns NC53 to stay well clear of any lightening and NEVER fly in icing.

 Just wondering how few we can fly with.

Vern      


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Chris Walterson <dkeats@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2021 7:40 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] New Group Member
 
 This is how mine are. The airplane is a Dragonfly, but the airfoil is
GU. ----------- Chris



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Revmaster cht

Dave Dugas
 

Brent
I think 300 degree cht is very possible looking at the work that you did on the engine baffles. I see chts of 340 degrees..... I only monitor the #3 cylinder and I have the twisted cht probe wires secured in the cylinder head with a setscrew. It's in the location that's the same as yours.


Re: New Group Member

Chris Walterson
 

This is how mine are. The airplane is a Dragonfly, but the airfoil is GU. ----------- Chris



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Re: New Group Member

Frankenbird Vern
 

 Correct..that the intention is to retain lift at the tips as long as possible, separation at the root is going to be the case.  It's ironic to me that the Horner design tips on my Dragonfly Canard are opposite the blended wing. If the intention is to reduce drag on the highest aerodynamic loaded surface would not the same blended tip be more effective?   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2021 1:40 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] New Group Member
 

Not to throw too many flies into the ointment, but a separation bubble is a feature of any airfoil flying at a non-zero angle of attack. This document demonstrates that the separation bubble climbs up the top surface of the LS-1 airfoil as it reduces speed and increases angle of attack. Here are snaps from Reg Clarke’s Q200, that I have added the boundary of the separation bubble in a dashed red curve.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brent Sherstan
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2021 12:31 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] New Group Member

 

That’s a great idea Bruce. Before I move the VGs it would be good to experiment and have some before and after footage.

Brent


Re: New Group Member

Frankenbird Vern
 

 Most biz aircraft end up with doo dads on the wing.. And Starship was no exception. First three test aircraft were "slikies" and by production they had fences and vortexes and all kinds of generators hanging in the breeze.   Your tuft test proved why blended tips move the tip vortex effectively off the surface, Bruce.

 G280 is an example

  

 Definitely nothing new in the build process on this aircraft.. old skool sheetmetal design from back in the Israel hills.  But the tips at cruise and stall did the trick.  


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2021 1:14 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] New Group Member
 
Brent perhaps the last guy to fly it was experimenting with the VG's?  You might put tuft of yarn on the surface of the canard (nothing on the leading edge tho) and also the elevator.  When I fly my TriQ200 the elevator has the tufts doing some strange things in cruise and stall (like moving straight inboard).  Maybe the last guy put the VG's aft to keep the elevator streams moving aft at all times..  That would give the elevator more authority past stall and perhaps more lift at all other flight attitudes.  If you have access to a Go Pro camera you could get some pictures of all flight attitudes to see just how your particular flight surfaces are reacting.
I have thought of putting gates in front of the elevators and maybe on the elevators to make the airflow move more straight aft than inboard but have not done it yet.  And yes "excuses are like belly buttons,,,everybody has one.  So maybe I get "a round tuit" someday.
Bruce Crain 


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Brent Sherstan" <brent.sherstan@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] New Group Member
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:27:34 -0700

Hello everyone, as requested I will introduce my Q2.

It is serial #62 and was completed in 1984. It's been a bit of a hangar queen in that it only has 180 hrs on it. I am the third owner, the builder was David Lamoureux and I bought it off Norm Klassen in 2016. Norm only flew it around the area and I wanted to do a lot more with it, so I did a lot of work. I rebuilt the engine, installed new avionics, did a wheel alignment, and countless other things. Ultimately I'd only feel comfortable with it once I inspected and/or improved every little thing. I've flown it 3.6 hour last year and 0.4 this year as a result of some continued engine issues, but I'm fairly confident I've got it mostly sorted out (we shall see...).

All that work too way longer than I ever expected but I do have a young family at home (baby and a toddler), so there's not a lot of spare time to go around. It did allow me to go slow and steady though and I was able to read almost all of the Quicktalk and Q-talk archives. I've read a bunch of the old Yahoo groups material as well but haven't made it through all of it. As mentioned, I'm a former military helicopter pilot, and after a couple tours in Afghanistan, I knew it was time to go. I actually bought the Q2 with some of my severance money! By the time I was ready to fly the Q2, I had 20 hours of Q2 taxi time, 30 hours in a Citabria and 5 hours in a Vans RV6. I'd have to admit that I was plenty nervous for that first flight but in the end it was as docile as either of the other taildraggers I've flown (thanks to the wheel alignment and some other work I did on the tailwheel).

I included some before and after pictures. The airplane is white and yellow but I intend to paint it all white at some point. The avionics are a work in progress, I know a glass panel is more efficient but I just love the round gauges! I'm sure I'll add more functionality as I see the need though.

Glad to meet you all!
Brent



1921 - 1940 of 54803