Date   

Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Dave Dugas
 

Great reading your story.... thanks. That's what America's been missing for too long. 
Dave D


On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 8:11 PM, Jerry Marstall
<jerrylm1986@...> wrote:
Great report. Envious. Jerry m

On Sat, Jan 8, 2022, 6:44 PM Keith Welsh <kw544@...> wrote:
Wow!  This badge stuff is interesting.
I've been flying out of KHUF since the 80"s.  HUF is a Class D with radar and operates like a class C.  It's been the 181st Natl Guard air wing since the 60's and now the 181st intelligence wing.  Major cool what they do. 
HUF has limited freight operations and two flight schools plus GA and the Natl Guard 181st Intelligence Wing based here.
The biggest change was when the fences went up after 911 and key's were issued to enter the hangar area.  Several of us had garage door clickers which was great until some dumbo let an idiot use their clicker who then helped themselves to the airport.  YA DON'T DRIVE CARS ON THE TAXI WAY!  And that was the end of the clickers.  Now they're going to card swipes with a camera looking at you.  Ok, I guess.
 
Last summer the week long military joint operation called Jaded Thunder was here which included F-16's, Osprey's, Tankers, and F-15E's from SJ plus other stuff and LOTS of military personnel.  Being the only tenant on the other side of the airport I found the F-15's were right in front of my hangar, about 20 of em.
There are two gates I have to pass through to get to my hangar.  Security was inside the first gate off the highway and drove in front of the gate to let me in, didn't have to use my key....cool.  I asked if I would be allowed to my hangar, he didn't know.  Said he knew I had a key for the second gate and to go find out.  He asked "What's the worse thing they can tell ya....leave?"  Oh...and he said not to tell em he let me in.  Gods honest truth.
 
Got lots of looks when I entered the hot ramp and drove up to the hangar.  One Sargent came over and asked what I was doing.  Told him this is was my hangar and would they mind if I watched...he said, OK.  Then I asked if I could open the big door and watch...he said, OK.  So I sat there for a little while, the jets were only about 75-100' in front of me and boy are they loud when idling, then he came over and motioned for me come out onto the ramp...told me I could see better from there.  Gods honest truth...I kid you not.  Here I am in shorts and a T-shirt the only civilian on a military hot ramp.  Later I asked if they would mind if I brought some family out and that I WOULD NOT advertise this opportunity keeping the invites to only a few people.  Not a problem.  Brought Vicki out the next day with lunch & drinks...why not?  Their base of operations was the hanger next to mine and the food!!  They had a gas grill with one of the grates missing and fire shooting all over the food.  I asked if that was a military model....noooo....they borrowed it from the guard base and it fell out of the pickup on the way over.  No one seemed to know where that grate section went. 
 
We had a great time visiting with the airmen and learned allot about the F-15E.  The next day one of the airmen came up to us and said the Air Wing commander sent out a text that evening to not worry about the folks in the hangar, they're OK.  I was told that he had driven by us several times checking things out.  Wouldn't you know nearly every airman, 18-23 year olds and a few pilots, noticed the Quickie and had to look.  While various jets were gone the crews had time to relax and would come over.  Several got to set in the Quickie and lots of pix were taken.  There was a guy in a blue polo shirt with Boeing on it walking around.  He was a wizo kind of guy and very talkative.  I asked if he was here to support the jets he said no these are MY airplanes and I'm responsible for each one of them and I was told where NOT to point the camera when they were being serviced.  He was responsible for communicating with the ground crews, troubleshooting and briefing the flight crews prior to each sortie about the jet they were about to fly.  He works with the ground crews, communicates to the Air Wing commander and flight crews any issues prior to flight and he had the power to ground an aircraft. A super nice guy with tons of responsibility.  I was impressed that the 20 year old crew chief of #503 had that power also.  That young man made it quite clear that his jet would not go down.  He understood the importance of that airplane flying.   
 
Vicki, our son & his wife and our 16 year old grand daughter were there the next day with food and drinks, may as well stay for lunch.  I thought it was interesting that many airmen walked by toward the porta-potties that day...anyway didn't think much about it till the next day when a Major came up to me and asked who that young girl was.  Ok, I get it...duh!!  She lettered in soccer as a sophomore, tall and very athletic.....you can fill in the blank.  :)
 
Throughout that experience a precious few of us got a behind the scenes look at our military airmen.  They are an absolutely phenomenal group of young men and women who take their responsibility very seriously. They love what they do and the cause for which they are doing it.  Those of us who got to watch, visit with and to know them those few short days came away more proud than ever to call ourselves AMERICANS!! 
 
The F-15E's were from the Seymour Johnson Air Force base in Goldsboro, NC.  Their jets were built from 1986-1989 they told us and that the F-15 is still in production.  Knowing they were supporting ground operations training I asked why the F-15?  Isn't it an air superiority fighter?  They said yes but that it can also drop bombs which it did from 30,000'.  I don't know if that's right but is what I was told.  Maybe one of you veterans would know perhaps like Leif Johnson from the RAFE.  
The Osprey's and F-16's were on the far side of the airport well away from us. 
 
I hope I haven't bored y'all too much.  It's freezing rain here through tomorrow and movies (wife's choices) are boring, and speaking of badges, I got thinking you all might enjoy what we hicks here in IN get to do from time to time.
Keith


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Bruce Crain" <jcrain2@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:39:24 -0600

We actually have two badges.  One we leave at the gate and the other stays on a lanyard around our neck or clip onto our shirts.  Both have our names and pictures on them so they can verify it is actually us walking out of the prison.  The badge also helps in case of a problem or riot.  We also wear checkered shirts to identify us from inmates in case the guards come in blazing.  If you’re on the ground and in a checkered shirt you might be ushered out more quickly.  

My friend Ralph entered once with his team sweat shirt from OSU.  It was Orange and Ralph was sitting with his circle of inmates for prayer and share.  (Their inmate clothing is total orange).  I asked them if they had seen Ralph a couple of times before Ralph said “oh you  son of a gun”.  The inmates fell out laughing!  I don’t remember if Ralph made that mistake again.
 
Bruce

 

On Jan 6, 2022, at 2:24 PM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jay,
 
Yes you need the badge to open the get to get out at Ogden but they dropped making you enter your PIN number to get out. You need the badge and secret PIN number to get in.
 
Charlie.





On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 1:17 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Do you need to have the badge to exit the prison?  😊

 

Sorry, could not resist.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 12:14 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

I am required to have background check and badge to enter the prison that we minister.  Are pilots now considered "Terrorists"?  Probably thanks to 911 and other attacks.  And the border is porous so....

My 2 cents.

Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Ryszard Zadow" <ryszardzadow@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Cc: Q_List <Q-List@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:19:11 -0500

 

 

On Jan 6, 2022, at 12:14, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

New regulations for hangar use at KOGD proof city hates GA pilots and builders.

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS 

 

 

 

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS

Legal publisher offering ordinance codification services for local governments, specializing in providing codes of ordinances in print and on the Internet

 

 

 

Charlie

 






 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 10:05 AM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

Mike,

 

Here is KOGD info it is a pain and Ogden City hates general aviation pilots and hangar owners.

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT 

 

 

 

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT

 

 

 

 

 

Charlie



 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 9:27 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:

Hi All,

Do any of you own/rent hangars at USA airports that have Scheduled airlines?

 

If so, I'd like to know how your airport handles TSA Badge requirements.

 

KPIE started charging a $20 a year badge fee and makes us take a TSA test on driving airport tugs and reporting bags that are left laying around... none of which we have at the General Aviation hangars!

 

The badge manager and I had a discussion.  He believes that all pilots flying have some sort of training and badges that allow them to walk on the ramp.  I told him that I could fly into any airport in the country and I don't need no stinking badge!  LOL.

 

Thanks,

Mike Dwyer Q200

 

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF

 

 

 
 






Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Jerry Marstall
 

Great report. Envious. Jerry m


On Sat, Jan 8, 2022, 6:44 PM Keith Welsh <kw544@...> wrote:
Wow!  This badge stuff is interesting.
I've been flying out of KHUF since the 80"s.  HUF is a Class D with radar and operates like a class C.  It's been the 181st Natl Guard air wing since the 60's and now the 181st intelligence wing.  Major cool what they do. 
HUF has limited freight operations and two flight schools plus GA and the Natl Guard 181st Intelligence Wing based here.
The biggest change was when the fences went up after 911 and key's were issued to enter the hangar area.  Several of us had garage door clickers which was great until some dumbo let an idiot use their clicker who then helped themselves to the airport.  YA DON'T DRIVE CARS ON THE TAXI WAY!  And that was the end of the clickers.  Now they're going to card swipes with a camera looking at you.  Ok, I guess.
 
Last summer the week long military joint operation called Jaded Thunder was here which included F-16's, Osprey's, Tankers, and F-15E's from SJ plus other stuff and LOTS of military personnel.  Being the only tenant on the other side of the airport I found the F-15's were right in front of my hangar, about 20 of em.
There are two gates I have to pass through to get to my hangar.  Security was inside the first gate off the highway and drove in front of the gate to let me in, didn't have to use my key....cool.  I asked if I would be allowed to my hangar, he didn't know.  Said he knew I had a key for the second gate and to go find out.  He asked "What's the worse thing they can tell ya....leave?"  Oh...and he said not to tell em he let me in.  Gods honest truth.
 
Got lots of looks when I entered the hot ramp and drove up to the hangar.  One Sargent came over and asked what I was doing.  Told him this is was my hangar and would they mind if I watched...he said, OK.  Then I asked if I could open the big door and watch...he said, OK.  So I sat there for a little while, the jets were only about 75-100' in front of me and boy are they loud when idling, then he came over and motioned for me come out onto the ramp...told me I could see better from there.  Gods honest truth...I kid you not.  Here I am in shorts and a T-shirt the only civilian on a military hot ramp.  Later I asked if they would mind if I brought some family out and that I WOULD NOT advertise this opportunity keeping the invites to only a few people.  Not a problem.  Brought Vicki out the next day with lunch & drinks...why not?  Their base of operations was the hanger next to mine and the food!!  They had a gas grill with one of the grates missing and fire shooting all over the food.  I asked if that was a military model....noooo....they borrowed it from the guard base and it fell out of the pickup on the way over.  No one seemed to know where that grate section went. 
 
We had a great time visiting with the airmen and learned allot about the F-15E.  The next day one of the airmen came up to us and said the Air Wing commander sent out a text that evening to not worry about the folks in the hangar, they're OK.  I was told that he had driven by us several times checking things out.  Wouldn't you know nearly every airman, 18-23 year olds and a few pilots, noticed the Quickie and had to look.  While various jets were gone the crews had time to relax and would come over.  Several got to set in the Quickie and lots of pix were taken.  There was a guy in a blue polo shirt with Boeing on it walking around.  He was a wizo kind of guy and very talkative.  I asked if he was here to support the jets he said no these are MY airplanes and I'm responsible for each one of them and I was told where NOT to point the camera when they were being serviced.  He was responsible for communicating with the ground crews, troubleshooting and briefing the flight crews prior to each sortie about the jet they were about to fly.  He works with the ground crews, communicates to the Air Wing commander and flight crews any issues prior to flight and he had the power to ground an aircraft. A super nice guy with tons of responsibility.  I was impressed that the 20 year old crew chief of #503 had that power also.  That young man made it quite clear that his jet would not go down.  He understood the importance of that airplane flying.   
 
Vicki, our son & his wife and our 16 year old grand daughter were there the next day with food and drinks, may as well stay for lunch.  I thought it was interesting that many airmen walked by toward the porta-potties that day...anyway didn't think much about it till the next day when a Major came up to me and asked who that young girl was.  Ok, I get it...duh!!  She lettered in soccer as a sophomore, tall and very athletic.....you can fill in the blank.  :)
 
Throughout that experience a precious few of us got a behind the scenes look at our military airmen.  They are an absolutely phenomenal group of young men and women who take their responsibility very seriously. They love what they do and the cause for which they are doing it.  Those of us who got to watch, visit with and to know them those few short days came away more proud than ever to call ourselves AMERICANS!! 
 
The F-15E's were from the Seymour Johnson Air Force base in Goldsboro, NC.  Their jets were built from 1986-1989 they told us and that the F-15 is still in production.  Knowing they were supporting ground operations training I asked why the F-15?  Isn't it an air superiority fighter?  They said yes but that it can also drop bombs which it did from 30,000'.  I don't know if that's right but is what I was told.  Maybe one of you veterans would know perhaps like Leif Johnson from the RAFE.  
The Osprey's and F-16's were on the far side of the airport well away from us. 
 
I hope I haven't bored y'all too much.  It's freezing rain here through tomorrow and movies (wife's choices) are boring, and speaking of badges, I got thinking you all might enjoy what we hicks here in IN get to do from time to time.
Keith


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Bruce Crain" <jcrain2@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:39:24 -0600

We actually have two badges.  One we leave at the gate and the other stays on a lanyard around our neck or clip onto our shirts.  Both have our names and pictures on them so they can verify it is actually us walking out of the prison.  The badge also helps in case of a problem or riot.  We also wear checkered shirts to identify us from inmates in case the guards come in blazing.  If you’re on the ground and in a checkered shirt you might be ushered out more quickly.  

My friend Ralph entered once with his team sweat shirt from OSU.  It was Orange and Ralph was sitting with his circle of inmates for prayer and share.  (Their inmate clothing is total orange).  I asked them if they had seen Ralph a couple of times before Ralph said “oh you  son of a gun”.  The inmates fell out laughing!  I don’t remember if Ralph made that mistake again.
 
Bruce

 

On Jan 6, 2022, at 2:24 PM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jay,
 
Yes you need the badge to open the get to get out at Ogden but they dropped making you enter your PIN number to get out. You need the badge and secret PIN number to get in.
 
Charlie.





On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 1:17 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Do you need to have the badge to exit the prison?  😊

 

Sorry, could not resist.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 12:14 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

I am required to have background check and badge to enter the prison that we minister.  Are pilots now considered "Terrorists"?  Probably thanks to 911 and other attacks.  And the border is porous so....

My 2 cents.

Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Ryszard Zadow" <ryszardzadow@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Cc: Q_List <Q-List@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:19:11 -0500

 

 

On Jan 6, 2022, at 12:14, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

New regulations for hangar use at KOGD proof city hates GA pilots and builders.

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS 

 

 

 

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS

Legal publisher offering ordinance codification services for local governments, specializing in providing codes of ordinances in print and on the Internet

 

 

 

Charlie

 






 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 10:05 AM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

Mike,

 

Here is KOGD info it is a pain and Ogden City hates general aviation pilots and hangar owners.

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT 

 

 

 

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT

 

 

 

 

 

Charlie



 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 9:27 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:

Hi All,

Do any of you own/rent hangars at USA airports that have Scheduled airlines?

 

If so, I'd like to know how your airport handles TSA Badge requirements.

 

KPIE started charging a $20 a year badge fee and makes us take a TSA test on driving airport tugs and reporting bags that are left laying around... none of which we have at the General Aviation hangars!

 

The badge manager and I had a discussion.  He believes that all pilots flying have some sort of training and badges that allow them to walk on the ramp.  I told him that I could fly into any airport in the country and I don't need no stinking badge!  LOL.

 

Thanks,

Mike Dwyer Q200

 

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF

 

 

 
 






Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Jay Scheevel
 

Great summary and commentary. Sometimes the best experiences are when you least expect them. Thanks for sharing all this. Hicks in the sticks are cool dudes👍😊

Cheers,
Jay


On Jan 8, 2022, at 4:44 PM, Keith Welsh <kw544@...> wrote:


Wow!  This badge stuff is interesting.
I've been flying out of KHUF since the 80"s.  HUF is a Class D with radar and operates like a class C.  It's been the 181st Natl Guard air wing since the 60's and now the 181st intelligence wing.  Major cool what they do. 
HUF has limited freight operations and two flight schools plus GA and the Natl Guard 181st Intelligence Wing based here.
The biggest change was when the fences went up after 911 and key's were issued to enter the hangar area.  Several of us had garage door clickers which was great until some dumbo let an idiot use their clicker who then helped themselves to the airport.  YA DON'T DRIVE CARS ON THE TAXI WAY!  And that was the end of the clickers.  Now they're going to card swipes with a camera looking at you.  Ok, I guess.
 
Last summer the week long military joint operation called Jaded Thunder was here which included F-16's, Osprey's, Tankers, and F-15E's from SJ plus other stuff and LOTS of military personnel.  Being the only tenant on the other side of the airport I found the F-15's were right in front of my hangar, about 20 of em.
There are two gates I have to pass through to get to my hangar.  Security was inside the first gate off the highway and drove in front of the gate to let me in, didn't have to use my key....cool.  I asked if I would be allowed to my hangar, he didn't know.  Said he knew I had a key for the second gate and to go find out.  He asked "What's the worse thing they can tell ya....leave?"  Oh...and he said not to tell em he let me in.  Gods honest truth.
 
Got lots of looks when I entered the hot ramp and drove up to the hangar.  One Sargent came over and asked what I was doing.  Told him this is was my hangar and would they mind if I watched...he said, OK.  Then I asked if I could open the big door and watch...he said, OK.  So I sat there for a little while, the jets were only about 75-100' in front of me and boy are they loud when idling, then he came over and motioned for me come out onto the ramp...told me I could see better from there.  Gods honest truth...I kid you not.  Here I am in shorts and a T-shirt the only civilian on a military hot ramp.  Later I asked if they would mind if I brought some family out and that I WOULD NOT advertise this opportunity keeping the invites to only a few people.  Not a problem.  Brought Vicki out the next day with lunch & drinks...why not?  Their base of operations was the hanger next to mine and the food!!  They had a gas grill with one of the grates missing and fire shooting all over the food.  I asked if that was a military model....noooo....they borrowed it from the guard base and it fell out of the pickup on the way over.  No one seemed to know where that grate section went. 
 
We had a great time visiting with the airmen and learned allot about the F-15E.  The next day one of the airmen came up to us and said the Air Wing commander sent out a text that evening to not worry about the folks in the hangar, they're OK.  I was told that he had driven by us several times checking things out.  Wouldn't you know nearly every airman, 18-23 year olds and a few pilots, noticed the Quickie and had to look.  While various jets were gone the crews had time to relax and would come over.  Several got to set in the Quickie and lots of pix were taken.  There was a guy in a blue polo shirt with Boeing on it walking around.  He was a wizo kind of guy and very talkative.  I asked if he was here to support the jets he said no these are MY airplanes and I'm responsible for each one of them and I was told where NOT to point the camera when they were being serviced.  He was responsible for communicating with the ground crews, troubleshooting and briefing the flight crews prior to each sortie about the jet they were about to fly.  He works with the ground crews, communicates to the Air Wing commander and flight crews any issues prior to flight and he had the power to ground an aircraft. A super nice guy with tons of responsibility.  I was impressed that the 20 year old crew chief of #503 had that power also.  That young man made it quite clear that his jet would not go down.  He understood the importance of that airplane flying.   
 
Vicki, our son & his wife and our 16 year old grand daughter were there the next day with food and drinks, may as well stay for lunch.  I thought it was interesting that many airmen walked by toward the porta-potties that day...anyway didn't think much about it till the next day when a Major came up to me and asked who that young girl was.  Ok, I get it...duh!!  She lettered in soccer as a sophomore, tall and very athletic.....you can fill in the blank.  :)
 
Throughout that experience a precious few of us got a behind the scenes look at our military airmen.  They are an absolutely phenomenal group of young men and women who take their responsibility very seriously. They love what they do and the cause for which they are doing it.  Those of us who got to watch, visit with and to know them those few short days came away more proud than ever to call ourselves AMERICANS!! 
 
The F-15E's were from the Seymour Johnson Air Force base in Goldsboro, NC.  Their jets were built from 1986-1989 they told us and that the F-15 is still in production.  Knowing they were supporting ground operations training I asked why the F-15?  Isn't it an air superiority fighter?  They said yes but that it can also drop bombs which it did from 30,000'.  I don't know if that's right but is what I was told.  Maybe one of you veterans would know perhaps like Leif Johnson from the RAFE.  
The Osprey's and F-16's were on the far side of the airport well away from us. 
 
I hope I haven't bored y'all too much.  It's freezing rain here through tomorrow and movies (wife's choices) are boring, and speaking of badges, I got thinking you all might enjoy what we hicks here in IN get to do from time to time.
Keith


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Bruce Crain" <jcrain2@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:39:24 -0600

We actually have two badges.  One we leave at the gate and the other stays on a lanyard around our neck or clip onto our shirts.  Both have our names and pictures on them so they can verify it is actually us walking out of the prison.  The badge also helps in case of a problem or riot.  We also wear checkered shirts to identify us from inmates in case the guards come in blazing.  If you’re on the ground and in a checkered shirt you might be ushered out more quickly.  

My friend Ralph entered once with his team sweat shirt from OSU.  It was Orange and Ralph was sitting with his circle of inmates for prayer and share.  (Their inmate clothing is total orange).  I asked them if they had seen Ralph a couple of times before Ralph said “oh you  son of a gun”.  The inmates fell out laughing!  I don’t remember if Ralph made that mistake again.
 
Bruce

 

On Jan 6, 2022, at 2:24 PM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

Jay,
 
Yes you need the badge to open the get to get out at Ogden but they dropped making you enter your PIN number to get out. You need the badge and secret PIN number to get in.
 
Charlie.





On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 1:17 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Do you need to have the badge to exit the prison?  😊

 

Sorry, could not resist.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 12:14 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

I am required to have background check and badge to enter the prison that we minister.  Are pilots now considered "Terrorists"?  Probably thanks to 911 and other attacks.  And the border is porous so....

My 2 cents.

Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Ryszard Zadow" <ryszardzadow@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Cc: Q_List <Q-List@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:19:11 -0500

 

 

On Jan 6, 2022, at 12:14, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

New regulations for hangar use at KOGD proof city hates GA pilots and builders.

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS 

 

 

 

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS

Legal publisher offering ordinance codification services for local governments, specializing in providing codes of ordinances in print and on the Internet

 

 

 

Charlie

 






 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 10:05 AM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

Mike,

 

Here is KOGD info it is a pain and Ogden City hates general aviation pilots and hangar owners.

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT 

 

 

 

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT

 

 

 

 

 

Charlie



 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 9:27 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:

Hi All,

Do any of you own/rent hangars at USA airports that have Scheduled airlines?

 

If so, I'd like to know how your airport handles TSA Badge requirements.

 

KPIE started charging a $20 a year badge fee and makes us take a TSA test on driving airport tugs and reporting bags that are left laying around... none of which we have at the General Aviation hangars!

 

The badge manager and I had a discussion.  He believes that all pilots flying have some sort of training and badges that allow them to walk on the ramp.  I told him that I could fly into any airport in the country and I don't need no stinking badge!  LOL.

 

Thanks,

Mike Dwyer Q200

 

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF

 

 

 
 






Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Rodney Herzig
 

Great story Keith! Sounds like a really cool event. Hope to see you in September 

Rod Herzig 
CozyIII N399BR


On Jan 8, 2022, at 1:44 PM, Keith Welsh <kw544@...> wrote:


Wow!  This badge stuff is interesting.
I've been flying out of KHUF since the 80"s.  HUF is a Class D with radar and operates like a class C.  It's been the 181st Natl Guard air wing since the 60's and now the 181st intelligence wing.  Major cool what they do. 
HUF has limited freight operations and two flight schools plus GA and the Natl Guard 181st Intelligence Wing based here.
The biggest change was when the fences went up after 911 and key's were issued to enter the hangar area.  Several of us had garage door clickers which was great until some dumbo let an idiot use their clicker who then helped themselves to the airport.  YA DON'T DRIVE CARS ON THE TAXI WAY!  And that was the end of the clickers.  Now they're going to card swipes with a camera looking at you.  Ok, I guess.
 
Last summer the week long military joint operation called Jaded Thunder was here which included F-16's, Osprey's, Tankers, and F-15E's from SJ plus other stuff and LOTS of military personnel.  Being the only tenant on the other side of the airport I found the F-15's were right in front of my hangar, about 20 of em.
There are two gates I have to pass through to get to my hangar.  Security was inside the first gate off the highway and drove in front of the gate to let me in, didn't have to use my key....cool.  I asked if I would be allowed to my hangar, he didn't know.  Said he knew I had a key for the second gate and to go find out.  He asked "What's the worse thing they can tell ya....leave?"  Oh...and he said not to tell em he let me in.  Gods honest truth.
 
Got lots of looks when I entered the hot ramp and drove up to the hangar.  One Sargent came over and asked what I was doing.  Told him this is was my hangar and would they mind if I watched...he said, OK.  Then I asked if I could open the big door and watch...he said, OK.  So I sat there for a little while, the jets were only about 75-100' in front of me and boy are they loud when idling, then he came over and motioned for me come out onto the ramp...told me I could see better from there.  Gods honest truth...I kid you not.  Here I am in shorts and a T-shirt the only civilian on a military hot ramp.  Later I asked if they would mind if I brought some family out and that I WOULD NOT advertise this opportunity keeping the invites to only a few people.  Not a problem.  Brought Vicki out the next day with lunch & drinks...why not?  Their base of operations was the hanger next to mine and the food!!  They had a gas grill with one of the grates missing and fire shooting all over the food.  I asked if that was a military model....noooo....they borrowed it from the guard base and it fell out of the pickup on the way over.  No one seemed to know where that grate section went. 
 
We had a great time visiting with the airmen and learned allot about the F-15E.  The next day one of the airmen came up to us and said the Air Wing commander sent out a text that evening to not worry about the folks in the hangar, they're OK.  I was told that he had driven by us several times checking things out.  Wouldn't you know nearly every airman, 18-23 year olds and a few pilots, noticed the Quickie and had to look.  While various jets were gone the crews had time to relax and would come over.  Several got to set in the Quickie and lots of pix were taken.  There was a guy in a blue polo shirt with Boeing on it walking around.  He was a wizo kind of guy and very talkative.  I asked if he was here to support the jets he said no these are MY airplanes and I'm responsible for each one of them and I was told where NOT to point the camera when they were being serviced.  He was responsible for communicating with the ground crews, troubleshooting and briefing the flight crews prior to each sortie about the jet they were about to fly.  He works with the ground crews, communicates to the Air Wing commander and flight crews any issues prior to flight and he had the power to ground an aircraft. A super nice guy with tons of responsibility.  I was impressed that the 20 year old crew chief of #503 had that power also.  That young man made it quite clear that his jet would not go down.  He understood the importance of that airplane flying.   
 
Vicki, our son & his wife and our 16 year old grand daughter were there the next day with food and drinks, may as well stay for lunch.  I thought it was interesting that many airmen walked by toward the porta-potties that day...anyway didn't think much about it till the next day when a Major came up to me and asked who that young girl was.  Ok, I get it...duh!!  She lettered in soccer as a sophomore, tall and very athletic.....you can fill in the blank.  :)
 
Throughout that experience a precious few of us got a behind the scenes look at our military airmen.  They are an absolutely phenomenal group of young men and women who take their responsibility very seriously. They love what they do and the cause for which they are doing it.  Those of us who got to watch, visit with and to know them those few short days came away more proud than ever to call ourselves AMERICANS!! 
 
The F-15E's were from the Seymour Johnson Air Force base in Goldsboro, NC.  Their jets were built from 1986-1989 they told us and that the F-15 is still in production.  Knowing they were supporting ground operations training I asked why the F-15?  Isn't it an air superiority fighter?  They said yes but that it can also drop bombs which it did from 30,000'.  I don't know if that's right but is what I was told.  Maybe one of you veterans would know perhaps like Leif Johnson from the RAFE.  
The Osprey's and F-16's were on the far side of the airport well away from us. 
 
I hope I haven't bored y'all too much.  It's freezing rain here through tomorrow and movies (wife's choices) are boring, and speaking of badges, I got thinking you all might enjoy what we hicks here in IN get to do from time to time.
Keith


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Bruce Crain" <jcrain2@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:39:24 -0600

We actually have two badges.  One we leave at the gate and the other stays on a lanyard around our neck or clip onto our shirts.  Both have our names and pictures on them so they can verify it is actually us walking out of the prison.  The badge also helps in case of a problem or riot.  We also wear checkered shirts to identify us from inmates in case the guards come in blazing.  If you’re on the ground and in a checkered shirt you might be ushered out more quickly.  

My friend Ralph entered once with his team sweat shirt from OSU.  It was Orange and Ralph was sitting with his circle of inmates for prayer and share.  (Their inmate clothing is total orange).  I asked them if they had seen Ralph a couple of times before Ralph said “oh you  son of a gun”.  The inmates fell out laughing!  I don’t remember if Ralph made that mistake again.
 
Bruce

 

On Jan 6, 2022, at 2:24 PM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

Jay,
 
Yes you need the badge to open the get to get out at Ogden but they dropped making you enter your PIN number to get out. You need the badge and secret PIN number to get in.
 
Charlie.





On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 1:17 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Do you need to have the badge to exit the prison?  😊

 

Sorry, could not resist.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 12:14 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

I am required to have background check and badge to enter the prison that we minister.  Are pilots now considered "Terrorists"?  Probably thanks to 911 and other attacks.  And the border is porous so....

My 2 cents.

Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Ryszard Zadow" <ryszardzadow@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Cc: Q_List <Q-List@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:19:11 -0500

 

 

On Jan 6, 2022, at 12:14, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

New regulations for hangar use at KOGD proof city hates GA pilots and builders.

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS 

 

 

 

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS

Legal publisher offering ordinance codification services for local governments, specializing in providing codes of ordinances in print and on the Internet

 

 

 

Charlie

 






 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 10:05 AM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

Mike,

 

Here is KOGD info it is a pain and Ogden City hates general aviation pilots and hangar owners.

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT 

 

 

 

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT

 

 

 

 

 

Charlie



 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 9:27 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:

Hi All,

Do any of you own/rent hangars at USA airports that have Scheduled airlines?

 

If so, I'd like to know how your airport handles TSA Badge requirements.

 

KPIE started charging a $20 a year badge fee and makes us take a TSA test on driving airport tugs and reporting bags that are left laying around... none of which we have at the General Aviation hangars!

 

The badge manager and I had a discussion.  He believes that all pilots flying have some sort of training and badges that allow them to walk on the ramp.  I told him that I could fly into any airport in the country and I don't need no stinking badge!  LOL.

 

Thanks,

Mike Dwyer Q200

 

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF

 

 

 
 






Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

Wow!  This badge stuff is interesting.
I've been flying out of KHUF since the 80"s.  HUF is a Class D with radar and operates like a class C.  It's been the 181st Natl Guard air wing since the 60's and now the 181st intelligence wing.  Major cool what they do. 
HUF has limited freight operations and two flight schools plus GA and the Natl Guard 181st Intelligence Wing based here.
The biggest change was when the fences went up after 911 and key's were issued to enter the hangar area.  Several of us had garage door clickers which was great until some dumbo let an idiot use their clicker who then helped themselves to the airport.  YA DON'T DRIVE CARS ON THE TAXI WAY!  And that was the end of the clickers.  Now they're going to card swipes with a camera looking at you.  Ok, I guess.
 
Last summer the week long military joint operation called Jaded Thunder was here which included F-16's, Osprey's, Tankers, and F-15E's from SJ plus other stuff and LOTS of military personnel.  Being the only tenant on the other side of the airport I found the F-15's were right in front of my hangar, about 20 of em.
There are two gates I have to pass through to get to my hangar.  Security was inside the first gate off the highway and drove in front of the gate to let me in, didn't have to use my key....cool.  I asked if I would be allowed to my hangar, he didn't know.  Said he knew I had a key for the second gate and to go find out.  He asked "What's the worse thing they can tell ya....leave?"  Oh...and he said not to tell em he let me in.  Gods honest truth.
 
Got lots of looks when I entered the hot ramp and drove up to the hangar.  One Sargent came over and asked what I was doing.  Told him this is was my hangar and would they mind if I watched...he said, OK.  Then I asked if I could open the big door and watch...he said, OK.  So I sat there for a little while, the jets were only about 75-100' in front of me and boy are they loud when idling, then he came over and motioned for me come out onto the ramp...told me I could see better from there.  Gods honest truth...I kid you not.  Here I am in shorts and a T-shirt the only civilian on a military hot ramp.  Later I asked if they would mind if I brought some family out and that I WOULD NOT advertise this opportunity keeping the invites to only a few people.  Not a problem.  Brought Vicki out the next day with lunch & drinks...why not?  Their base of operations was the hanger next to mine and the food!!  They had a gas grill with one of the grates missing and fire shooting all over the food.  I asked if that was a military model....noooo....they borrowed it from the guard base and it fell out of the pickup on the way over.  No one seemed to know where that grate section went. 
 
We had a great time visiting with the airmen and learned allot about the F-15E.  The next day one of the airmen came up to us and said the Air Wing commander sent out a text that evening to not worry about the folks in the hangar, they're OK.  I was told that he had driven by us several times checking things out.  Wouldn't you know nearly every airman, 18-23 year olds and a few pilots, noticed the Quickie and had to look.  While various jets were gone the crews had time to relax and would come over.  Several got to set in the Quickie and lots of pix were taken.  There was a guy in a blue polo shirt with Boeing on it walking around.  He was a wizo kind of guy and very talkative.  I asked if he was here to support the jets he said no these are MY airplanes and I'm responsible for each one of them and I was told where NOT to point the camera when they were being serviced.  He was responsible for communicating with the ground crews, troubleshooting and briefing the flight crews prior to each sortie about the jet they were about to fly.  He works with the ground crews, communicates to the Air Wing commander and flight crews any issues prior to flight and he had the power to ground an aircraft. A super nice guy with tons of responsibility.  I was impressed that the 20 year old crew chief of #503 had that power also.  That young man made it quite clear that his jet would not go down.  He understood the importance of that airplane flying.   
 
Vicki, our son & his wife and our 16 year old grand daughter were there the next day with food and drinks, may as well stay for lunch.  I thought it was interesting that many airmen walked by toward the porta-potties that day...anyway didn't think much about it till the next day when a Major came up to me and asked who that young girl was.  Ok, I get it...duh!!  She lettered in soccer as a sophomore, tall and very athletic.....you can fill in the blank.  :)
 
Throughout that experience a precious few of us got a behind the scenes look at our military airmen.  They are an absolutely phenomenal group of young men and women who take their responsibility very seriously. They love what they do and the cause for which they are doing it.  Those of us who got to watch, visit with and to know them those few short days came away more proud than ever to call ourselves AMERICANS!! 
 
The F-15E's were from the Seymour Johnson Air Force base in Goldsboro, NC.  Their jets were built from 1986-1989 they told us and that the F-15 is still in production.  Knowing they were supporting ground operations training I asked why the F-15?  Isn't it an air superiority fighter?  They said yes but that it can also drop bombs which it did from 30,000'.  I don't know if that's right but is what I was told.  Maybe one of you veterans would know perhaps like Leif Johnson from the RAFE.  
The Osprey's and F-16's were on the far side of the airport well away from us. 
 
I hope I haven't bored y'all too much.  It's freezing rain here through tomorrow and movies (wife's choices) are boring, and speaking of badges, I got thinking you all might enjoy what we hicks here in IN get to do from time to time.
Keith


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Bruce Crain" <jcrain2@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 20:39:24 -0600

We actually have two badges.  One we leave at the gate and the other stays on a lanyard around our neck or clip onto our shirts.  Both have our names and pictures on them so they can verify it is actually us walking out of the prison.  The badge also helps in case of a problem or riot.  We also wear checkered shirts to identify us from inmates in case the guards come in blazing.  If you’re on the ground and in a checkered shirt you might be ushered out more quickly.  

My friend Ralph entered once with his team sweat shirt from OSU.  It was Orange and Ralph was sitting with his circle of inmates for prayer and share.  (Their inmate clothing is total orange).  I asked them if they had seen Ralph a couple of times before Ralph said “oh you  son of a gun”.  The inmates fell out laughing!  I don’t remember if Ralph made that mistake again.
 
Bruce

 

On Jan 6, 2022, at 2:24 PM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

Jay,
 
Yes you need the badge to open the get to get out at Ogden but they dropped making you enter your PIN number to get out. You need the badge and secret PIN number to get in.
 
Charlie.





On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 1:17 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Do you need to have the badge to exit the prison?  😊

 

Sorry, could not resist.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 12:14 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

I am required to have background check and badge to enter the prison that we minister.  Are pilots now considered "Terrorists"?  Probably thanks to 911 and other attacks.  And the border is porous so....

My 2 cents.

Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Ryszard Zadow" <ryszardzadow@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Cc: Q_List <Q-List@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:19:11 -0500

 

 

On Jan 6, 2022, at 12:14, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

New regulations for hangar use at KOGD proof city hates GA pilots and builders.

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS 

 

 

 

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS

Legal publisher offering ordinance codification services for local governments, specializing in providing codes of ordinances in print and on the Internet

 

 

 

Charlie

 






 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 10:05 AM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

Mike,

 

Here is KOGD info it is a pain and Ogden City hates general aviation pilots and hangar owners.

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT 

 

 

 

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT

 

 

 

 

 

Charlie



 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 9:27 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:

Hi All,

Do any of you own/rent hangars at USA airports that have Scheduled airlines?

 

If so, I'd like to know how your airport handles TSA Badge requirements.

 

KPIE started charging a $20 a year badge fee and makes us take a TSA test on driving airport tugs and reporting bags that are left laying around... none of which we have at the General Aviation hangars!

 

The badge manager and I had a discussion.  He believes that all pilots flying have some sort of training and badges that allow them to walk on the ramp.  I told him that I could fly into any airport in the country and I don't need no stinking badge!  LOL.

 

Thanks,

Mike Dwyer Q200

 

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF

 

 

 
 






Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Jim Patillo
 

Mike,
 
I intentionally touch the tail wheel first and hold the stick back until the mains settle in. If I want a squeaker I put in a 100 rpm's to soften contact. Everyone has their own take on it. So I say, to each his own, go do it!

Jim
N46JP Q200


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...>
Sent: Saturday, January 8, 2022 1:39:43 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle
 
I also think the tail wheel angle should be set so that just before canard stalls the tail wheel is down (probably just what David Gaul said in a different way).  Let me explain, when I'm landing it's almost always a 3 point at full down on the elevator.  Sometimes when I get too slow I'll hit the tail wheel first.  That's bad because that lowers your angle of attack and you slam the canard down.  I want a squeaker landing and three points.  I don't think a bounce is possible at this point because you are out of lift.  When the tail wheel is just right you can just barely see over the front cowl and down the runway.  I think if you can easily see forward, then the tail wheel is holding you at too low of an angle of attack and your takeoff speed and landing speed will be higher than optimal.
Mike Dwyer Q200 

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 2:48 AM David J. Gall <David@...> wrote:

Since we’re only interested in “ground angle of attack” the analysis centers on the canard with “flap extended” (full aft stick). Set the “ground angle of attack” via the tailspring installed angle/length so that in the three-point attitude the canard can get close to its full-aft-stick CLmax to permit liftoff at minimum speed (and to be able to land at minimum touchdown speed).

 

Since the tailwheel prevents the airplane from being rotated nose-up while rolling in the three-point attitude, setting the “ground angle of attack” to a too-low pitch attitude that prevents achieving nearly CLmax will mean that the airplane will need to continue accelerating on the ground until the lower angle of attack/CL and the higher speed satisfy the lift equation to overcome gravity. Yes, it is possible that a lower ground angle of attack *might* yield less drag during acceleration so that the higher liftoff speed would be attained in a shorter distance, but who’s got the analysis horsepower for that effort? And anyway, if one thinks that to be the case, the stick also serves as a drag control on the ground – don’t pull full aft stick until close to liftoff speed.

 

Set the “ground angle of attack” the old-school way like the Piper Cub guy did, so that the “front wing” (canard) can make close to its CLmax while still in the three-point attitude and, thereby, liftoff at minimum flying speed.

 

You’ll note that I couched references to the CLmax term with a “close to” at every instance; this is so that liftoff actually occurs at something a little bit faster than stall speed. It’s no fun lifting off and climbing out of ground effect only to stall right away. About a one degree lower “ground angle of attack” margin will give a 0.1 CL margin above stall. The liftoff still happens well below (L/D)max so the initial acceleration in ground effect is on the “back side of the power curve” -- some airplanes are so draggy that the margin needs to be more than just one degree, but I think the Q2/Q200 is a fairly low-drag design, so a one degree margin below the CLmax “ground angle of attack” should be sufficient to prevent unexpected settling back onto the runway after liftoff.

 

Worth every penny you paid for it, my advice is only an opinion and I hereby declaim any and all liability for anything bad that comes of it. (Kudos and accolades for good outcomes may be expressed via copious amounts of cash, as always.)

 

 

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 6:28 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

 

Finally found the Wainfan references I was looking for; wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy before weighing in. The following is quick, back of the envelope engiNerding meant for illustrative purposes more than anything, so play along for funsies...

Aerodynamically, the best things to reduce takeoff roll are to reduce wing loading and get as close to maximum lift coefficient (Clmax) as possible. Our wings are pretty well fixed (pun intended) so that leaves us getting close to Clmax via mounting angle (angle of attack). Looking *just* at the main wing airfoil, at a close but not perfect takeoff condition since I'm lazy (Reynolds 1M vs ~800k), we see Clmax occurs ~15 degress AoA. We are a tandem wing airplane, so we can't get close to that.

So the next best thing we can do is get as much angle as possible before drag (Cd) goes straight through the roof. That appears to happen in the 10ish degree range:



A good bet here - where we can't achieve max lift - would be to maximize "lifting efficiency", or Cl/Cd for us engineer types. That appears to occur within a neat little plateau from around 10±2.5 degrees...SMACK where Jay has observed it on flying airplanes:



So basically...don't stress it too much. There's a fair bit of wiggle room, and Flying Airplanes don't lie 😉
--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Mike Dwyer
 

I also think the tail wheel angle should be set so that just before canard stalls the tail wheel is down (probably just what David Gaul said in a different way).  Let me explain, when I'm landing it's almost always a 3 point at full down on the elevator.  Sometimes when I get too slow I'll hit the tail wheel first.  That's bad because that lowers your angle of attack and you slam the canard down.  I want a squeaker landing and three points.  I don't think a bounce is possible at this point because you are out of lift.  When the tail wheel is just right you can just barely see over the front cowl and down the runway.  I think if you can easily see forward, then the tail wheel is holding you at too low of an angle of attack and your takeoff speed and landing speed will be higher than optimal.
Mike Dwyer Q200 

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 2:48 AM David J. Gall <David@...> wrote:

Since we’re only interested in “ground angle of attack” the analysis centers on the canard with “flap extended” (full aft stick). Set the “ground angle of attack” via the tailspring installed angle/length so that in the three-point attitude the canard can get close to its full-aft-stick CLmax to permit liftoff at minimum speed (and to be able to land at minimum touchdown speed).

 

Since the tailwheel prevents the airplane from being rotated nose-up while rolling in the three-point attitude, setting the “ground angle of attack” to a too-low pitch attitude that prevents achieving nearly CLmax will mean that the airplane will need to continue accelerating on the ground until the lower angle of attack/CL and the higher speed satisfy the lift equation to overcome gravity. Yes, it is possible that a lower ground angle of attack *might* yield less drag during acceleration so that the higher liftoff speed would be attained in a shorter distance, but who’s got the analysis horsepower for that effort? And anyway, if one thinks that to be the case, the stick also serves as a drag control on the ground – don’t pull full aft stick until close to liftoff speed.

 

Set the “ground angle of attack” the old-school way like the Piper Cub guy did, so that the “front wing” (canard) can make close to its CLmax while still in the three-point attitude and, thereby, liftoff at minimum flying speed.

 

You’ll note that I couched references to the CLmax term with a “close to” at every instance; this is so that liftoff actually occurs at something a little bit faster than stall speed. It’s no fun lifting off and climbing out of ground effect only to stall right away. About a one degree lower “ground angle of attack” margin will give a 0.1 CL margin above stall. The liftoff still happens well below (L/D)max so the initial acceleration in ground effect is on the “back side of the power curve” -- some airplanes are so draggy that the margin needs to be more than just one degree, but I think the Q2/Q200 is a fairly low-drag design, so a one degree margin below the CLmax “ground angle of attack” should be sufficient to prevent unexpected settling back onto the runway after liftoff.

 

Worth every penny you paid for it, my advice is only an opinion and I hereby declaim any and all liability for anything bad that comes of it. (Kudos and accolades for good outcomes may be expressed via copious amounts of cash, as always.)

 

 

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 6:28 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

 

Finally found the Wainfan references I was looking for; wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy before weighing in. The following is quick, back of the envelope engiNerding meant for illustrative purposes more than anything, so play along for funsies...

Aerodynamically, the best things to reduce takeoff roll are to reduce wing loading and get as close to maximum lift coefficient (Clmax) as possible. Our wings are pretty well fixed (pun intended) so that leaves us getting close to Clmax via mounting angle (angle of attack). Looking *just* at the main wing airfoil, at a close but not perfect takeoff condition since I'm lazy (Reynolds 1M vs ~800k), we see Clmax occurs ~15 degress AoA. We are a tandem wing airplane, so we can't get close to that.

So the next best thing we can do is get as much angle as possible before drag (Cd) goes straight through the roof. That appears to happen in the 10ish degree range:



A good bet here - where we can't achieve max lift - would be to maximize "lifting efficiency", or Cl/Cd for us engineer types. That appears to occur within a neat little plateau from around 10±2.5 degrees...SMACK where Jay has observed it on flying airplanes:



So basically...don't stress it too much. There's a fair bit of wiggle room, and Flying Airplanes don't lie 😉
--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Anthony P
 

Thank you all for the very clear answers.

Follow-up question, at the moment of lift off, how much of the aft stick range (neutral to full back) do you have dialed in?
I would guess, not full back, but don't know.


--
Q2 N86KL


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Jim Patillo
 

My Canard has a 7.5 degree angle of attack using a 10 degree full swiveling tail wheel when sitting on the ramp. I'm using the smaller Chen Shin main tires. 

 The plane has a 5x8" spring steel tail spring with AN4 thru bolt holding the tail wheel on. It's  worked perfectly for 20 years.  The plane “levitates from a 3 point take off and lands tail wheel first without reflexor. I can pull it off earlier if I choose. I only use the reflexor in flight for trim and after landing. Like someone said, your mileage may vary. 

Note: I use the reflexor as refinement tool to the plane as opposed to a bandaid, which some have had to use it for. 

I fly this plane weekly. Finish your plane! You will not regret it. After 20+ years, it's still as much fun as it was the first time I flew it. 

Jim
N46JP Q200


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of David J. Gall <David@...>
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 11:48:38 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle
 

Since we’re only interested in “ground angle of attack” the analysis centers on the canard with “flap extended” (full aft stick). Set the “ground angle of attack” via the tailspring installed angle/length so that in the three-point attitude the canard can get close to its full-aft-stick CLmax to permit liftoff at minimum speed (and to be able to land at minimum touchdown speed).

 

Since the tailwheel prevents the airplane from being rotated nose-up while rolling in the three-point attitude, setting the “ground angle of attack” to a too-low pitch attitude that prevents achieving nearly CLmax will mean that the airplane will need to continue accelerating on the ground until the lower angle of attack/CL and the higher speed satisfy the lift equation to overcome gravity. Yes, it is possible that a lower ground angle of attack *might* yield less drag during acceleration so that the higher liftoff speed would be attained in a shorter distance, but who’s got the analysis horsepower for that effort? And anyway, if one thinks that to be the case, the stick also serves as a drag control on the ground – don’t pull full aft stick until close to liftoff speed.

 

Set the “ground angle of attack” the old-school way like the Piper Cub guy did, so that the “front wing” (canard) can make close to its CLmax while still in the three-point attitude and, thereby, liftoff at minimum flying speed.

 

You’ll note that I couched references to the CLmax term with a “close to” at every instance; this is so that liftoff actually occurs at something a little bit faster than stall speed. It’s no fun lifting off and climbing out of ground effect only to stall right away. About a one degree lower “ground angle of attack” margin will give a 0.1 CL margin above stall. The liftoff still happens well below (L/D)max so the initial acceleration in ground effect is on the “back side of the power curve” -- some airplanes are so draggy that the margin needs to be more than just one degree, but I think the Q2/Q200 is a fairly low-drag design, so a one degree margin below the CLmax “ground angle of attack” should be sufficient to prevent unexpected settling back onto the runway after liftoff.

 

Worth every penny you paid for it, my advice is only an opinion and I hereby declaim any and all liability for anything bad that comes of it. (Kudos and accolades for good outcomes may be expressed via copious amounts of cash, as always.)

 

 

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 6:28 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

 

Finally found the Wainfan references I was looking for; wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy before weighing in. The following is quick, back of the envelope engiNerding meant for illustrative purposes more than anything, so play along for funsies...

Aerodynamically, the best things to reduce takeoff roll are to reduce wing loading and get as close to maximum lift coefficient (Clmax) as possible. Our wings are pretty well fixed (pun intended) so that leaves us getting close to Clmax via mounting angle (angle of attack). Looking *just* at the main wing airfoil, at a close but not perfect takeoff condition since I'm lazy (Reynolds 1M vs ~800k), we see Clmax occurs ~15 degress AoA. We are a tandem wing airplane, so we can't get close to that.

So the next best thing we can do is get as much angle as possible before drag (Cd) goes straight through the roof. That appears to happen in the 10ish degree range:



A good bet here - where we can't achieve max lift - would be to maximize "lifting efficiency", or Cl/Cd for us engineer types. That appears to occur within a neat little plateau from around 10±2.5 degrees...SMACK where Jay has observed it on flying airplanes:



So basically...don't stress it too much. There's a fair bit of wiggle room, and Flying Airplanes don't lie 😉
--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Paul Fisher
 

The answer for me is also yes.  Three point take off and three point landing is what I always shoot for.  I followed the plans, including the plans change Terry mentioned, but I have no idea exactly what my angle is.

Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF ~1760 hours since first flight in 1990


On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 10:32 AM Terry Crouch via groups.io <Q1terryMDT=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
The answer for me would be yes.   Brief comments on ground angle of attack

When the original Quickie prototype started flying it had a lot of modifications before the plans came out. These can be seen in all the early photos in magazines etc. Added rudder instead of tail wheel fairing, multiple changes in tailwheel spring angle. When I built my Q1 I verified the ground angle of attack of the prototype. It was 7.5 degrees. That is how I built my airplane. Ground handling is great.
 Q2 plans addendum Q2PC9 dated July 1, 1981. Called a mandatory revision to plans, specs out how to set the ground angle of attack. Sentence from these instructions.    This limitation is to assist tailwheel first landings and three point takeoffs at mid/forward c.g.   
 My best guess is the ground angle of attach is limited to get the rear wing to quit flying sooner to get some pressure on the tailwheel.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC
1008 TT


-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony P <solarant@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2022 9:35 am
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Are people leaving the ground while still in a 3-point attitude?


--
Q2 N86KL


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Terry Crouch
 

The answer for me would be yes.   Brief comments on ground angle of attack

When the original Quickie prototype started flying it had a lot of modifications before the plans came out. These can be seen in all the early photos in magazines etc. Added rudder instead of tail wheel fairing, multiple changes in tailwheel spring angle. When I built my Q1 I verified the ground angle of attack of the prototype. It was 7.5 degrees. That is how I built my airplane. Ground handling is great.
 Q2 plans addendum Q2PC9 dated July 1, 1981. Called a mandatory revision to plans, specs out how to set the ground angle of attack. Sentence from these instructions.    This limitation is to assist tailwheel first landings and three point takeoffs at mid/forward c.g.   
 My best guess is the ground angle of attach is limited to get the rear wing to quit flying sooner to get some pressure on the tailwheel.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC
1008 TT


-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony P <solarant@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2022 9:35 am
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Are people leaving the ground while still in a 3-point attitude?


--
Q2 N86KL


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Anthony P
 

Are people leaving the ground while still in a 3-point attitude?


--
Q2 N86KL


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

David J. Gall
 

Mike, why are you looking at the main wing here? It’s the canard that controls liftoff speed….

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 6:28 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

 

Finally found the Wainfan references I was looking for; wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy before weighing in. The following is quick, back of the envelope engiNerding meant for illustrative purposes more than anything, so play along for funsies...

Aerodynamically, the best things to reduce takeoff roll are to reduce wing loading and get as close to maximum lift coefficient (Clmax) as possible. Our wings are pretty well fixed (pun intended) so that leaves us getting close to Clmax via mounting angle (angle of attack). Looking *just* at the main wing airfoil, at a close but not perfect takeoff condition since I'm lazy (Reynolds 1M vs ~800k), we see Clmax occurs ~15 degress AoA. We are a tandem wing airplane, so we can't get close to that.

So the next best thing we can do is get as much angle as possible before drag (Cd) goes straight through the roof. That appears to happen in the 10ish degree range:



A good bet here - where we can't achieve max lift - would be to maximize "lifting efficiency", or Cl/Cd for us engineer types. That appears to occur within a neat little plateau from around 10±2.5 degrees...SMACK where Jay has observed it on flying airplanes:



So basically...don't stress it too much. There's a fair bit of wiggle room, and Flying Airplanes don't lie 😉
--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

David J. Gall
 

Since we’re only interested in “ground angle of attack” the analysis centers on the canard with “flap extended” (full aft stick). Set the “ground angle of attack” via the tailspring installed angle/length so that in the three-point attitude the canard can get close to its full-aft-stick CLmax to permit liftoff at minimum speed (and to be able to land at minimum touchdown speed).

 

Since the tailwheel prevents the airplane from being rotated nose-up while rolling in the three-point attitude, setting the “ground angle of attack” to a too-low pitch attitude that prevents achieving nearly CLmax will mean that the airplane will need to continue accelerating on the ground until the lower angle of attack/CL and the higher speed satisfy the lift equation to overcome gravity. Yes, it is possible that a lower ground angle of attack *might* yield less drag during acceleration so that the higher liftoff speed would be attained in a shorter distance, but who’s got the analysis horsepower for that effort? And anyway, if one thinks that to be the case, the stick also serves as a drag control on the ground – don’t pull full aft stick until close to liftoff speed.

 

Set the “ground angle of attack” the old-school way like the Piper Cub guy did, so that the “front wing” (canard) can make close to its CLmax while still in the three-point attitude and, thereby, liftoff at minimum flying speed.

 

You’ll note that I couched references to the CLmax term with a “close to” at every instance; this is so that liftoff actually occurs at something a little bit faster than stall speed. It’s no fun lifting off and climbing out of ground effect only to stall right away. About a one degree lower “ground angle of attack” margin will give a 0.1 CL margin above stall. The liftoff still happens well below (L/D)max so the initial acceleration in ground effect is on the “back side of the power curve” -- some airplanes are so draggy that the margin needs to be more than just one degree, but I think the Q2/Q200 is a fairly low-drag design, so a one degree margin below the CLmax “ground angle of attack” should be sufficient to prevent unexpected settling back onto the runway after liftoff.

 

Worth every penny you paid for it, my advice is only an opinion and I hereby declaim any and all liability for anything bad that comes of it. (Kudos and accolades for good outcomes may be expressed via copious amounts of cash, as always.)

 

 

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 6:28 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

 

Finally found the Wainfan references I was looking for; wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy before weighing in. The following is quick, back of the envelope engiNerding meant for illustrative purposes more than anything, so play along for funsies...

Aerodynamically, the best things to reduce takeoff roll are to reduce wing loading and get as close to maximum lift coefficient (Clmax) as possible. Our wings are pretty well fixed (pun intended) so that leaves us getting close to Clmax via mounting angle (angle of attack). Looking *just* at the main wing airfoil, at a close but not perfect takeoff condition since I'm lazy (Reynolds 1M vs ~800k), we see Clmax occurs ~15 degress AoA. We are a tandem wing airplane, so we can't get close to that.

So the next best thing we can do is get as much angle as possible before drag (Cd) goes straight through the roof. That appears to happen in the 10ish degree range:



A good bet here - where we can't achieve max lift - would be to maximize "lifting efficiency", or Cl/Cd for us engineer types. That appears to occur within a neat little plateau from around 10±2.5 degrees...SMACK where Jay has observed it on flying airplanes:



So basically...don't stress it too much. There's a fair bit of wiggle room, and Flying Airplanes don't lie 😉
--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Michael Dunning
 

Finally found the Wainfan references I was looking for; wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy before weighing in. The following is quick, back of the envelope engiNerding meant for illustrative purposes more than anything, so play along for funsies...

Aerodynamically, the best things to reduce takeoff roll are to reduce wing loading and get as close to maximum lift coefficient (Clmax) as possible. Our wings are pretty well fixed (pun intended) so that leaves us getting close to Clmax via mounting angle (angle of attack). Looking *just* at the main wing airfoil, at a close but not perfect takeoff condition since I'm lazy (Reynolds 1M vs ~800k), we see Clmax occurs ~15 degress AoA. We are a tandem wing airplane, so we can't get close to that.

So the next best thing we can do is get as much angle as possible before drag (Cd) goes straight through the roof. That appears to happen in the 10ish degree range:



A good bet here - where we can't achieve max lift - would be to maximize "lifting efficiency", or Cl/Cd for us engineer types. That appears to occur within a neat little plateau from around 10±2.5 degrees...SMACK where Jay has observed it on flying airplanes:



So basically...don't stress it too much. There's a fair bit of wiggle room, and Flying Airplanes don't lie 😉
--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Bruce Crain
 

We actually have two badges.  One we leave at the gate and the other stays on a lanyard around our neck or clip onto our shirts.  Both have our names and pictures on them so they can verify it is actually us walking out of the prison.  The badge also helps in case of a problem or riot.  We also wear checkered shirts to identify us from inmates in case the guards come in blazing.  If you’re on the ground and in a checkered shirt you might be ushered out more quickly.  
My friend Ralph entered once with his team sweat shirt from OSU.  It was Orange and Ralph was sitting with his circle of inmates for prayer and share.  (Their inmate clothing is total orange).  I asked them if they had seen Ralph a couple of times before Ralph said “oh you  son of a gun”.  The inmates fell out laughing!  I don’t remember if Ralph made that mistake again.

Bruce


On Jan 6, 2022, at 2:24 PM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

 Jay,

Yes you need the badge to open the get to get out at Ogden but they dropped making you enter your PIN number to get out. You need the badge and secret PIN number to get in.

Charlie.





On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 1:17 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Do you need to have the badge to exit the prison?  😊

 

Sorry, could not resist.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 12:14 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

I am required to have background check and badge to enter the prison that we minister.  Are pilots now considered "Terrorists"?  Probably thanks to 911 and other attacks.  And the border is porous so....

My 2 cents.

Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Ryszard Zadow" <ryszardzadow@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Cc: Q_List <Q-List@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:19:11 -0500

 

 

On Jan 6, 2022, at 12:14, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

New regulations for hangar use at KOGD proof city hates GA pilots and builders.

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS 

 

 

 

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS

Legal publisher offering ordinance codification services for local governments, specializing in providing codes of ordinances in print and on the Internet

 

 

 

Charlie

 






 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 10:05 AM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

Mike,

 

Here is KOGD info it is a pain and Ogden City hates general aviation pilots and hangar owners.

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT 

 

 

 

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT

 

 

 

 

 

Charlie



 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 9:27 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:

Hi All,

Do any of you own/rent hangars at USA airports that have Scheduled airlines?

 

If so, I'd like to know how your airport handles TSA Badge requirements.

 

KPIE started charging a $20 a year badge fee and makes us take a TSA test on driving airport tugs and reporting bags that are left laying around... none of which we have at the General Aviation hangars!

 

The badge manager and I had a discussion.  He believes that all pilots flying have some sort of training and badges that allow them to walk on the ramp.  I told him that I could fly into any airport in the country and I don't need no stinking badge!  LOL.

 

Thanks,

Mike Dwyer Q200

 

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF

 

 




Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Anthony P
 

I need a badge and PIN at KBED.  It's mainly business/private charter there.  Commercial flight once in a blue moon.
I didn't need the training for driving in the non-movement areas or ramp because I do not have that level of authorization from my sponsor, which is the aero club.
Early in my training it was ok to be escorted by my CFI.
If you fly in and stay on the ramp, you don't need one.
If you want to go through an FBO to rental cars or taxi, you need a special escort from the FBO.
They do have TSA agents at the main building/entrance and a carry-on x-ray machine.

Saying any more would constitute a breach of my agreement with the port authority, the state police, TSA, and probably Dept. of Home Land Security.



BUT, after 7 months, the FAA finally recognizes me as the owner of a Quickie!!!   
And for that, I'm very happy.


--
Q2 N86KL


Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Michael Dunning
 

Hangar at KHSV...big airport, big runways (feel free to check).

Initial training on airport security and ground operations (aka please don't drive your car into an airliner) => initial badge. Badge expires every 12 calendar months with a 30 day leeway. If you fill out the 1 page renewal form within that timespan, you can just email the form to the security manager and then go stop by and pick up your new badge + ramp sticker (never stuck it). I let it fully lapse the first year and had to retake the training.

At least here our badges are free and the gate works off a fancy RFID chip embedded in the badge, so no passcodes.
--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Jay Scheevel
 

Did a quick survey of the planes I have measured over the years. These are all tail-draggers that have been flying for years, most of them decades (not attaching names/N-numbers to protect the innocent):

Degrees ground angle (unloaded)
8.97
8.84
7.8
8.98
7.95
9.36
8.1
6.5
8.35
8.5
7.5

Only a very few of these planes had zero decalage, so I averaged the MW and Canard angles to arrive at the average wing ground angle.

Also, based on 5 different planes where I had inflight videos, all aircraft including tri-gear flared and touched down between 8 and 10 degrees AOA.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Walterson
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 5:15 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Troy------- I am probably wrong , but I think somewhere i read that the angle is 7.5---8.5. I had sent a few pictures of my airplane to Jay and he did the check for angle and I came out where I should be. I have only flow it twice , but it seems good.

Sometimes " lucky" is better than smart.----------- Chris


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Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Chris Walterson
 

Troy------- I am probably wrong , but I  think somewhere  i read that the angle is 7.5---8.5.  I had sent a few pictures of my airplane to Jay and he did the check for angle and I came out where I should be.  I have only flow it twice , but it seems good.

 Sometimes " lucky" is better than smart.-----------  Chris


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