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Re: Oil Flows Q-200
Michael D. Callahan <micallahan@...>
Amen brother, twice the speed four times the lift! Anyone who wants to reset
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the Vne on uor planes, please carry a Gmeter and repotrt the results. Mike C.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce J Crain <jcrain2@...> To: <Q-LIST@...> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 11:11 PM Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200 Hey if you guys are suddenly pulling on the stick at Vne you may be
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Re: Oil Flows Q-200
I stand corrected Pat and Al. You guys were scaring me. I do remember a
performance evaluation in Ottawa where I was indicating around 200 mph and turning at that mph was a little frightening to me. Bruce Crain ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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G loading
kittleson1@...
Bruce,
All this stuff about maneuvering speed, margin of safety and everything else that guys have been writhing about simply don't apply to this type of aircraft. I'm NOT saying that something nasty isn't going to happen if you attempt to fly well in excess of Redline. I've attempted to "G" the crap out of the airframe, at some very high speeds, and the canard just simply fails to produce enough lift to expect something catastrophic. If anyone has flight tested the plane to find another conclusion, or has EVER sustained anything over about 4 G's, I like to hear about their efforts. I did all this stuff early in the flight testing and admit that I didn't attempt it with full nose up reflexor. More G may be available in some other sort of configuration or exaggerated aft CG condition. I appreciate your concern for the boneheads that may try to do something real stupid and am sure that many may put me in this category. For many, I expect this is shear heresy. Standing by for incoming Cheers, Al Franken On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 00:11:23 EST Bruce J Crain <jcrain2@...> writes: Hey if you guys are suddenly pulling on the stick at Vne you may be________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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Re: Oil Flows Q-200
Pat Panzera <panzera@...>
Bruce J Crain wrote:
If I'm following this thread correctly, I don't think anyone is proposing "suddenly pulling" on the stick while at Vne. I believe the conversation was about air racing, where in the majority of the race, one would be banked to at least 60 degrees plus. Dunno how much back pressure would be necessary in the Q, but in a standard A/C configuration, we are speaking of at least 2g's, which would double the wing loading, requiring quite a bit of aft stick to keep altitude. The actual words Paul used are, "The canard does not stall at full aft at Vne ..... and in any event, if you pull more than 3.3 G you will lose too much speed/energy due to induced drag." Al Franken ;) wrote, "I have flight tested my bird up to Vne with rapid full aft stick deflection and have yet to yield more the about +3.6G's." ...but notice that he said "flight tested". I doubt that he makes a regular practice of this. Pat
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Re: Oil Flows Q-200
Hey if you guys are suddenly pulling on the stick at Vne you may be
asking for something catastrophic in the near future. It's a tough aircraft but the sudden onset of full back on the stick is a mistake. They publish a design manuvering speed of about 134 mph I believe. The engineer worked out the numbers probably with about a 20% margin of safety and Vne is a long way from 134 mph. My 2 cents worth. Bruce Crain On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:46:14 -0500 "L Koutz" <koutzl@...> writes: Re: Oil flow 10-00 L canard Root (second oil JPG picture)________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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Re: Oil Flows Q-200
L Koutz <koutzl@...>
Re: Oil flow 10-00 L canard Root (second oil JPG picture)
This picture shows the oil flow on the left canard wing root. I dumped oil near the leading edge and the prop blast was throwing it everywhere-most didn't even hit the canard. I think I will shut off the engine next time! To me it seems like the oil is flowing smoothly in this fillet until the oil gets to the elevator. The oil on the fuselage is flowing smoothly down to the fillet and oil is flowing smoothly back on the canard. Then the oil gets to the elevator. Outboard on the elevator the weak trails are moving inboard. The inboard elevator shows pooling oil and hardly any flow lines. There is a sharp demarkation to the pool of oil and as it moves aft it moves inboard, but oil doesn't jump the gap and move to the fuselage fillet. The side of the fuselage at the elevator extends outboard farther than the elevator/fuselage faring gap. If I dropped a verticle line from the side of the fuselage it would be outboard of this gap. How would I fillet this area? I have thought about cutting off a few inches of the inboard elevator and making this part of an expanding radius fillet as it moves aft. This would involve a new way to attach the elevator torque tube to the elevator. I don't like just one bolt holding this elevator on and any slop in the holes drilled means slop in the system. It hasn't been a problem for anyone that I know about and Alan Kittleson has just said he has stalled the canard at V ne which I believe takes a lot of back pull .... "How do you figure that- " The canard does not stall at full aft at Vne ." Have you tried it? I have. It stalls. Al I have pulled back on the stick at 200mph and it is VERY stiff so I am afraid of breaking something. (maybe this is a test I ought to try on the ground. With how many pound of force do I feel I can pull back on the stick and not have something give. Al do you have a guess how many pounds you are pulling to do the above stall? So anyway back to the fillet! Any answers? Larry P.S. to view pictures go here. http://www.egroups.com/files/Q-LIST/
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Re: Oil Flows Q-200
L Koutz <koutzl@...>
David
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Go the the bottom of these messages and you will find a link to E-groups-click on the link. Then there should be boxes on the "E-Groups" page and one of them should be "my groups" -click on that. Then there are two Q E-mail groups. "Q-list" and "Q-performance" Click on "Q-list" Then on the left side there is "Messages, Posts, Files...." Click on "Files" You will find Oil Flow JPG's there Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Gall" <David@...> To: <Q-LIST@...> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200 Larry,
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Re: Oil Flows Q-200
L Koutz <koutzl@...>
RE: Oil 10-00 Canard Under Wheel (first JPG picture)
This picture shows pretty smooth flow on canard all the way back until the elevator then the oil on the inboard portion of the elevator must not be able to jump the gap and stay attached so it doesn't get on the elevator. The outboard portion shows the oil (probably more oil mass) jumps the gap and pools in the gap area before moving back on the elevator. The extreme outboard portion of elevator has more oil on it than what the oil streaks in front would suggest. This excess oil may have migrated outboard in the gap area then got sucked out at the end of the elevator. The oil on the wheel pant is somewhat confused in the radius area of wheelpant to canard. Just in front of the plate that covers the wheel brakes (the plate is orientated in real life straight up and down). #!- One stream is turning downward and runs into the plate. Then the oil can't jump the gap. #2- Another area just above Plate (and seem to be behind) is going straight back. Then curves smoothly down as it moves towards the aft part of the wheelpant. This is what I wanted the wheelpant to do- push the air downward (creates lift). #3- Then a third oil flow going straight back on canard splits gets moved outboard into the fillet area and suddenly is stopped at the upper boundary of the #2 oil flow pattern. There is one streak at the very top of the #2 oil flow that is thicker than others and moves all the way to the tail. Well these are just a few of my comments as I look closely at these oil flows. I brought up the picture of the oil flow in one window and these comments in another window and kept flipping back and forth making comments about flow and then back to the picture to see if my words showed what I thought the oil flow was doing. I may be reading too much into the patterns but there does seems to be some confusion to the oil flows as the streaks don't go aft in smooth parallel streamlined flows like I thought they should. My proceedure was to get to the end of the runway, dump oil all over the area I wanted studied, then take off. I flew maybe 10 minutes up to 160 mph then landed and took pictures immediately. It is difficult to get oil on the underside and vertical area (front of wheel pant) and really difficult in the wing root area as the prop blast was blowing oil all over the place as I was trying to dump it on that area. I have to find a better method for getting the oil on like a squirt bottle or a spray bottle. I would really like to put hundreds of discrete oil dots all over the plane, then go fly. There is also the problem of airspeed range. There may be one airflow at 80 mph and an entirely different flow at 160mph. Larry
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Oil Flows Q-200
L Koutz <koutzl@...>
I have added 11 JPG photos of my oil flow testing on a Q-200
They show: Canard Wing root on both sides Canard wheel pants- inside, outside, top Wing root leading edge Wing tip top flow Some of the flows are ugly! Especially when I thought the rounded wheel pants were more aerodynamic -shows what I know! Sorry about some of the orientation of the pictures. I was trying to get the "important" stuff all in a picture Will write more on these picts later-its late! Larry
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Re: Aileron Reflexor
Jon Finley <finley@...>
Whoa there Paul! I believe you are really over-simplifying this.
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What angle are you referring to as being the ideal straight and level "speed" angle and how do you measure it?? Some say the fuselage water line should be at zero some argue that the either the wing or canard should be at zero, which do you say?? I assume you have a level mounted in the cockpit that references this angle so that you can adjust to it in flight using the reflexor?? So, if you agree with the above "idea" (setting some ideal speed angle) then you have to admit that the angle required on the reflexor (to achieve this angle) varies significantly depending on how the wing and canard are mounted and load. What are you talking about when you mention down aileron at approach speeds?? To achieve what?? I think most of us here would agree that we use the reflexor to "position" the aircraft so that we make a three-point touchdown. This means using a bit of up aileron (to move the tail down). Jon Finley Q1 N54JF - 1835cc VW Q2 N90MG - Subaru EA-81 DD Turbo Apple Valley, Minnesota
-----Original Message-----
From: pwright5@... [mailto:pwright5@...] Sent: November 09, 2000 12:07 PM To: Q-LIST@... Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Aileron Reflexor Top marks! I use 6 and 2 as well. If you need down aileron at approach speeds YOU ARE AFT OF REAR CG! You should only need 2 degrees down at Vne - taps wide open - balls to the wall - head-down-and-arse-up goin' for it - stonkin' along. Even then, with fuel burn off from the rear tank you will need to go to neutral. I take off reflexed full up, and slowly reflex forward to neutral as I pick up speed, then let it climb at 80kts and 1500fpm (full throttle) Paul "The Ives Hive" <iveshive@...> on 11/09/2000 01:02:10 PM Please respond to Q-LIST@... To: <Q-LIST@...> cc: Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Aileron Reflexor 6 degrees of up delection and 2degrees of down. Tom I To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html eGroups Sponsor To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html
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Re: Aileron Reflexor
pwright5@...
Top marks! I use 6 and 2 as well.
If you need down aileron at approach speeds YOU ARE AFT OF REAR CG! You should only need 2 degrees down at Vne - taps wide open - balls to the wall - head-down-and-arse-up goin' for it - stonkin' along. Even then, with fuel burn off from the rear tank you will need to go to neutral. I take off reflexed full up, and slowly reflex forward to neutral as I pick up speed, then let it climb at 80kts and 1500fpm (full throttle) Paul "The Ives Hive" <iveshive@...> on 11/09/2000 01:02:10 PM Please respond to Q-LIST@... To: <Q-LIST@...> cc: Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Aileron Reflexor 6 degrees of up delection and 2degrees of down. Tom I To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html
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Re: Oil Flows Q-200
Jon Finley <finley@...>
Where else?? To the Q-List files section.
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http://www.egroups.com/group/Q-LIST select files. If you don't see it or can't select then you are not signed on. Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: David J. Gall [mailto:David@...] Sent: November 09, 2000 8:59 AM To: Q-LIST@... Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200 Larry, Could you post a link to your pictures? I can't find your website address. Thanks, David J. Gall ----- Original Message ----- From: "L Koutz" <koutzl@...> To: <Q-LIST@...> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 2:19 PM Subject: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200 > I have added 11 JPG photos of my oil flow testing on a Q-200 > > They show: > > Canard Wing root on both sides > Canard wheel pants- inside, outside, top > Wing root leading edge > Wing tip top flow > > Some of the flows are ugly! Especially when I thought the rounded wheel > pants were more aerodynamic -shows what I know! > > Sorry about some of the orientation of the pictures. I was trying to get the > "important" stuff all in a picture > > Will write more on these picts later-its late! > > Larry > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... > > Quickie Builders Association WEB site > http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html > > > > eGroups Sponsor To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html
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pic
Britt Crowell <britt@...>
The pics are on the egroups.com server. go login and go to the files area for the Q-list
Regards Britt Crowell TCD Webmaster HP - Fort Collins - Non-HP Employee 970-898-1142
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Re: Oil Flows Q-200
Pat Panzera <panzera@...>
L Koutz wrote:
Where? Pat
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Re: Aileron Reflexor
Greg Z.
When I take off or land I have my ailerons reflexed up just a little bit.
This gives me a neutral elevator allowing more authority on flair or takeoff. As my speed builds up, or I level off for cruise I need to reflex my elevators down, again to give me a neutral elevator. When I converted my bird to a tri-Q, I just cut off the wheel pants flush with the bottom of the canard, effectively giving me an extra 2 feet of lifting surface on the canard. As I get to 190 mph I need to reflex the ailerons down quite a bit to give the main wing enough extra lift to allow the elevator to be neutral. This was the same characteristic I observed on another converted tri-Q but not on a revmaster conventional Q that I sometimes flew. Greg Z 89RZ PS I just installed an airtronic ignition system and it performs as advertised.
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Re: Oil Flows Q-200
David J. Gall
Larry,
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Could you post a link to your pictures? I can't find your website address. Thanks, David J. Gall
----- Original Message -----
From: "L Koutz" <koutzl@...> To: <Q-LIST@...> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 2:19 PM Subject: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200 I have added 11 JPG photos of my oil flow testing on a Q-200the "important" stuff all in a picture
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Re: Oil Flows Q-200
Jon Finley <finley@...>
Good work Larry!! Very interesting stuff there!
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I am shocked at the airflow around the pants! I also thought the rounded pant would be much better. Come on you guy that are flying!!! Oil flow yours so we have something to compare to!! We know my shape sucks. Larry's shape needs some work. WHAT CAN WE SAY ABOUT YOURS?? I think the canard root is showing about what we expected. Now, put a temporary fillet on and repeat the test. I'd test mine (which has the a vertically flat fillet - like we discussed) but its so stinking cold the oil would freeze before I got into the air!! :-) Jon
-----Original Message-----
From: L Koutz [mailto:koutzl@...] Sent: November 09, 2000 1:19 PM To: Q-LIST@... Subject: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200 I have added 11 JPG photos of my oil flow testing on a Q-200 They show: Canard Wing root on both sides Canard wheel pants- inside, outside, top Wing root leading edge Wing tip top flow Some of the flows are ugly! Especially when I thought the rounded wheel pants were more aerodynamic -shows what I know! Sorry about some of the orientation of the pictures. I was trying to get the "important" stuff all in a picture Will write more on these picts later-its late! Larry eGroups Sponsor To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html
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Re: Aileron Reflexor
The Ives Hive <iveshive@...>
6 degrees of up delection and 2degrees of down.
Tom I
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Re: Aileron Reflexor
MartinErni@...
Scott Swing gave me these numbers many years ago for the travel limits on the
reflexor. Trailing edge 3/8 inches up to 1/4 inches down. This seems more than adequate. Hope this helps. Earnest Martin Triq200 - 700 HR.
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Re: Aileron Reflexor
Who is this?
Mine goes up quite a bit and down very little. I have never had the need to
fly it down . It is always up some. dave
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