Date   

Re: Oil Flows Q-200

Michael D. Callahan <micallahan@...>
 

Amen brother, twice the speed four times the lift! Anyone who wants to reset
the Vne on uor planes, please carry a Gmeter and repotrt the results. Mike
C.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce J Crain <jcrain2@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200


Hey if you guys are suddenly pulling on the stick at Vne you may be
asking for something catastrophic in the near future. It's a tough
aircraft but the sudden onset of full back on the stick is a mistake.
They publish a design manuvering speed of about 134 mph I believe. The
engineer worked out the numbers probably with about a 20% margin of
safety and Vne is a long way from 134 mph.

My 2 cents worth.
Bruce Crain


On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:46:14 -0500 "L Koutz" <koutzl@...>
writes:
Re: Oil flow 10-00 L canard Root (second oil JPG picture)

This picture shows the oil flow on the left canard wing root. I dumped
oil
near the leading edge and the prop blast was throwing it
everywhere-most
didn't even hit the canard. I think I will shut off the engine next
time! To
me it seems like the oil is flowing smoothly in this fillet until the
oil
gets to the elevator. The oil on the fuselage is flowing smoothly down
to
the fillet and oil is flowing smoothly back on the canard.

Then the oil gets to the elevator. Outboard on the elevator the weak
trails
are moving inboard. The inboard elevator shows pooling oil and hardly
any
flow lines. There is a sharp demarkation to the pool of oil and as it
moves
aft it moves inboard, but oil doesn't jump the gap and move to the
fuselage
fillet.

The side of the fuselage at the elevator extends outboard farther than
the
elevator/fuselage faring gap. If I dropped a verticle line from the
side of
the fuselage it would be outboard of this gap. How would I fillet this
area?

I have thought about cutting off a few inches of the inboard elevator
and
making this part of an expanding radius fillet as it moves aft. This
would
involve a new way to attach the elevator torque tube to the elevator.
I
don't like just one bolt holding this elevator on and any slop in the
holes
drilled means slop in the system. It hasn't been a problem for anyone
that I
know about and Alan Kittleson has just said he has stalled the canard
at V
ne which I believe takes a lot of back pull ....

"How do you figure that- " The canard does not stall at full aft at
Vne ."
Have you tried it?

I have. It stalls.

Al

I have pulled back on the stick at 200mph and it is VERY stiff so I am
afraid of breaking something. (maybe this is a test I ought to try on
the
ground. With how many pound of force do I feel I can pull back on the
stick
and not have something give. Al do you have a guess how many pounds
you are
pulling to do the above stall?

So anyway back to the fillet! Any answers?

Larry

P.S. to view pictures go here.
http://www.egroups.com/files/Q-LIST/



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Re: Oil Flows Q-200

Bruce Crain
 

I stand corrected Pat and Al. You guys were scaring me. I do remember a
performance evaluation in Ottawa where I was indicating around 200 mph
and turning at that mph was a little frightening to me.

Bruce Crain


Bruce J Crain wrote:

Hey if you guys are suddenly pulling on the stick at Vne you may be
asking for something catastrophic in the near future.
If I'm following this thread correctly, I don't think anyone is
proposing "suddenly pulling" on the stick while at Vne. I believe the

conversation was about air racing, where in the majority of the race,

one would be banked to at least 60 degrees plus. Dunno how much back
pressure would be necessary in the Q, but in a standard A/C
configuration,
we are speaking of at least 2g's, which would double the wing
loading,
requiring quite a bit of aft stick to keep altitude.

The actual words Paul used are, "The canard does not stall at full aft
at
Vne ..... and in any event, if you pull more than 3.3 G you will lose
too
much speed/energy due to induced drag."

Al Franken ;) wrote, "I have flight tested my bird up to Vne with
rapid full
aft stick deflection and have yet to yield more the about +3.6G's."
...but notice that he said "flight tested". I doubt that he makes a
regular
practice of this.

Pat


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G loading

kittleson1@...
 

Bruce,

All this stuff about maneuvering speed, margin of safety and everything
else that guys have been writhing about
simply don't apply to this type of aircraft.

I'm NOT saying that something nasty isn't going to happen if you attempt
to fly well in excess of Redline.

I've attempted to "G" the crap out of the airframe, at some very high
speeds, and the canard just simply fails to produce enough lift to expect
something catastrophic.

If anyone has flight tested the plane to find another conclusion, or has
EVER sustained anything over about 4 G's, I like to hear about their
efforts.

I did all this stuff early in the flight testing and admit that I didn't
attempt it with full nose up reflexor. More G may be available in some
other sort of configuration or exaggerated aft CG condition.

I appreciate your concern for the boneheads that may try to do something
real stupid and am sure that many may put me in this category.

For many, I expect this is shear heresy.

Standing by for incoming

Cheers,

Al Franken


On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 00:11:23 EST Bruce J Crain <jcrain2@...> writes:
Hey if you guys are suddenly pulling on the stick at Vne you may be
asking for something catastrophic in the near future. It's a tough
aircraft but the sudden onset of full back on the stick is a
mistake.
They publish a design manuvering speed of about 134 mph I believe.
The
engineer worked out the numbers probably with about a 20% margin of
safety and Vne is a long way from 134 mph.

My 2 cents worth.
Bruce Crain
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Re: Oil Flows Q-200

Pat Panzera <panzera@...>
 

Bruce J Crain wrote:

Hey if you guys are suddenly pulling on the stick at Vne you may be
asking for something catastrophic in the near future.
If I'm following this thread correctly, I don't think anyone is
proposing "suddenly pulling" on the stick while at Vne. I believe the
conversation was about air racing, where in the majority of the race,
one would be banked to at least 60 degrees plus. Dunno how much back
pressure would be necessary in the Q, but in a standard A/C configuration,
we are speaking of at least 2g's, which would double the wing loading,
requiring quite a bit of aft stick to keep altitude.

The actual words Paul used are, "The canard does not stall at full aft at
Vne ..... and in any event, if you pull more than 3.3 G you will lose too
much speed/energy due to induced drag."

Al Franken ;) wrote, "I have flight tested my bird up to Vne with rapid full
aft stick deflection and have yet to yield more the about +3.6G's."
...but notice that he said "flight tested". I doubt that he makes a regular
practice of this.

Pat


Re: Oil Flows Q-200

Bruce Crain
 

Hey if you guys are suddenly pulling on the stick at Vne you may be
asking for something catastrophic in the near future. It's a tough
aircraft but the sudden onset of full back on the stick is a mistake.
They publish a design manuvering speed of about 134 mph I believe. The
engineer worked out the numbers probably with about a 20% margin of
safety and Vne is a long way from 134 mph.

My 2 cents worth.
Bruce Crain


On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:46:14 -0500 "L Koutz" <koutzl@...>
writes:
Re: Oil flow 10-00 L canard Root (second oil JPG picture)

This picture shows the oil flow on the left canard wing root. I dumped
oil
near the leading edge and the prop blast was throwing it
everywhere-most
didn't even hit the canard. I think I will shut off the engine next
time! To
me it seems like the oil is flowing smoothly in this fillet until the
oil
gets to the elevator. The oil on the fuselage is flowing smoothly down
to
the fillet and oil is flowing smoothly back on the canard.

Then the oil gets to the elevator. Outboard on the elevator the weak
trails
are moving inboard. The inboard elevator shows pooling oil and hardly
any
flow lines. There is a sharp demarkation to the pool of oil and as it
moves
aft it moves inboard, but oil doesn't jump the gap and move to the
fuselage
fillet.

The side of the fuselage at the elevator extends outboard farther than
the
elevator/fuselage faring gap. If I dropped a verticle line from the
side of
the fuselage it would be outboard of this gap. How would I fillet this
area?

I have thought about cutting off a few inches of the inboard elevator
and
making this part of an expanding radius fillet as it moves aft. This
would
involve a new way to attach the elevator torque tube to the elevator.
I
don't like just one bolt holding this elevator on and any slop in the
holes
drilled means slop in the system. It hasn't been a problem for anyone
that I
know about and Alan Kittleson has just said he has stalled the canard
at V
ne which I believe takes a lot of back pull ....

"How do you figure that- " The canard does not stall at full aft at
Vne ."
Have you tried it?

I have. It stalls.

Al

I have pulled back on the stick at 200mph and it is VERY stiff so I am
afraid of breaking something. (maybe this is a test I ought to try on
the
ground. With how many pound of force do I feel I can pull back on the
stick
and not have something give. Al do you have a guess how many pounds
you are
pulling to do the above stall?

So anyway back to the fillet! Any answers?

Larry

P.S. to view pictures go here.
http://www.egroups.com/files/Q-LIST/



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Re: Oil Flows Q-200

L Koutz <koutzl@...>
 

Re: Oil flow 10-00 L canard Root (second oil JPG picture)

This picture shows the oil flow on the left canard wing root. I dumped oil
near the leading edge and the prop blast was throwing it everywhere-most
didn't even hit the canard. I think I will shut off the engine next time! To
me it seems like the oil is flowing smoothly in this fillet until the oil
gets to the elevator. The oil on the fuselage is flowing smoothly down to
the fillet and oil is flowing smoothly back on the canard.

Then the oil gets to the elevator. Outboard on the elevator the weak trails
are moving inboard. The inboard elevator shows pooling oil and hardly any
flow lines. There is a sharp demarkation to the pool of oil and as it moves
aft it moves inboard, but oil doesn't jump the gap and move to the fuselage
fillet.

The side of the fuselage at the elevator extends outboard farther than the
elevator/fuselage faring gap. If I dropped a verticle line from the side of
the fuselage it would be outboard of this gap. How would I fillet this area?

I have thought about cutting off a few inches of the inboard elevator and
making this part of an expanding radius fillet as it moves aft. This would
involve a new way to attach the elevator torque tube to the elevator. I
don't like just one bolt holding this elevator on and any slop in the holes
drilled means slop in the system. It hasn't been a problem for anyone that I
know about and Alan Kittleson has just said he has stalled the canard at V
ne which I believe takes a lot of back pull ....

"How do you figure that- " The canard does not stall at full aft at Vne ."
Have you tried it?

I have. It stalls.

Al

I have pulled back on the stick at 200mph and it is VERY stiff so I am
afraid of breaking something. (maybe this is a test I ought to try on the
ground. With how many pound of force do I feel I can pull back on the stick
and not have something give. Al do you have a guess how many pounds you are
pulling to do the above stall?

So anyway back to the fillet! Any answers?

Larry

P.S. to view pictures go here.
http://www.egroups.com/files/Q-LIST/


Re: Oil Flows Q-200

L Koutz <koutzl@...>
 

David

Go the the bottom of these messages and you will find a link to
E-groups-click on the link.

Then there should be boxes on the "E-Groups" page and one of them should be
"my groups" -click on that.

Then there are two Q E-mail groups. "Q-list" and "Q-performance"

Click on "Q-list"

Then on the left side there is "Messages, Posts, Files...."

Click on "Files"

You will find Oil Flow JPG's there

Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Gall" <David@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200


Larry,

Could you post a link to your pictures? I can't find your website address.

Thanks,


David J. Gall

----- Original Message -----
From: "L Koutz" <koutzl@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 2:19 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200


I have added 11 JPG photos of my oil flow testing on a Q-200

They show:

Canard Wing root on both sides
Canard wheel pants- inside, outside, top
Wing root leading edge
Wing tip top flow

Some of the flows are ugly! Especially when I thought the rounded wheel
pants were more aerodynamic -shows what I know!

Sorry about some of the orientation of the pictures. I was trying to get
the
"important" stuff all in a picture

Will write more on these picts later-its late!

Larry




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Re: Oil Flows Q-200

L Koutz <koutzl@...>
 

RE: Oil 10-00 Canard Under Wheel (first JPG picture)

This picture shows pretty smooth flow on canard all the way back until the
elevator then the oil on the inboard portion of the elevator must not be
able to jump the gap and stay attached so it doesn't get on the elevator.
The outboard portion shows the oil (probably more oil mass) jumps the gap
and pools in the gap area before moving back on the elevator. The extreme
outboard portion of elevator has more oil on it than what the oil streaks in
front would suggest. This excess oil may have migrated outboard in the gap
area then got sucked out at the end of the elevator.


The oil on the wheel pant is somewhat confused in the radius area of
wheelpant to canard. Just in front of the plate that covers the wheel brakes
(the plate is orientated in real life straight up and down).

#!- One stream is turning downward and runs into the plate. Then the oil
can't jump the gap.

#2- Another area just above Plate (and seem to be behind) is going straight
back. Then curves smoothly down as it moves towards the aft part of the
wheelpant. This is what I wanted the wheelpant to do- push the air downward
(creates lift).

#3- Then a third oil flow going straight back on canard splits gets moved
outboard into the fillet area and suddenly is stopped at the upper boundary
of the #2 oil flow pattern. There is one streak at the very top of the #2
oil flow that is thicker than others and moves all the way to the tail.

Well these are just a few of my comments as I look closely at these oil
flows. I brought up the picture of the oil flow in one window and these
comments in another window and kept flipping back and forth making comments
about flow and then back to the picture to see if my words showed what I
thought the oil flow was doing. I may be reading too much into the patterns
but there does seems to be some confusion to the oil flows as the streaks
don't go aft in smooth parallel streamlined flows like I thought they
should.

My proceedure was to get to the end of the runway, dump oil all over the
area I wanted studied, then take off. I flew maybe 10 minutes up to 160 mph
then landed and took pictures immediately. It is difficult to get oil on the
underside and vertical area (front of wheel pant) and really difficult in
the wing root area as the prop blast was blowing oil all over the place as I
was trying to dump it on that area. I have to find a better method for
getting the oil on like a squirt bottle or a spray bottle. I would really
like to put hundreds of discrete oil dots all over the plane, then go fly.
There is also the problem of airspeed range. There may be one airflow at 80
mph and an entirely different flow at 160mph.

Larry




Oil Flows Q-200

L Koutz <koutzl@...>
 

I have added 11 JPG photos of my oil flow testing on a Q-200

They show:

Canard Wing root on both sides
Canard wheel pants- inside, outside, top
Wing root leading edge
Wing tip top flow

Some of the flows are ugly! Especially when I thought the rounded wheel
pants were more aerodynamic -shows what I know!

Sorry about some of the orientation of the pictures. I was trying to get the
"important" stuff all in a picture

Will write more on these picts later-its late!

Larry


Re: Aileron Reflexor

Jon Finley <finley@...>
 

Whoa there Paul! I believe you are really over-simplifying this.

What angle are you referring to as being the ideal straight and level
"speed" angle and how do you measure it?? Some say the fuselage water line
should be at zero some argue that the either the wing or canard should be at
zero, which do you say?? I assume you have a level mounted in the cockpit
that references this angle so that you can adjust to it in flight using the
reflexor??

So, if you agree with the above "idea" (setting some ideal speed angle) then
you have to admit that the angle required on the reflexor (to achieve this
angle) varies significantly depending on how the wing and canard are mounted
and load.

What are you talking about when you mention down aileron at approach
speeds?? To achieve what?? I think most of us here would agree that we use
the reflexor to "position" the aircraft so that we make a three-point
touchdown. This means using a bit of up aileron (to move the tail down).

Jon Finley
Q1 N54JF - 1835cc VW
Q2 N90MG - Subaru EA-81 DD Turbo
Apple Valley, Minnesota

-----Original Message-----
From: pwright5@... [mailto:pwright5@...]
Sent: November 09, 2000 12:07 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Aileron Reflexor



Top marks! I use 6 and 2 as well.
If you need down aileron at approach speeds YOU ARE AFT OF REAR CG! You
should only need 2 degrees down at Vne - taps wide open - balls to the
wall
- head-down-and-arse-up goin' for it - stonkin' along. Even then, with
fuel
burn off from the rear tank you will need to go to neutral.

I take off reflexed full up, and slowly reflex forward to neutral as I
pick
up speed, then let it climb at 80kts and 1500fpm (full throttle)

Paul




"The Ives Hive" <iveshive@...> on 11/09/2000 01:02:10 PM

Please respond to Q-LIST@...

To: <Q-LIST@...>
cc:
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Aileron Reflexor


6 degrees of up delection and 2degrees of down.
Tom I





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Re: Aileron Reflexor

pwright5@...
 

Top marks! I use 6 and 2 as well.
If you need down aileron at approach speeds YOU ARE AFT OF REAR CG! You
should only need 2 degrees down at Vne - taps wide open - balls to the wall
- head-down-and-arse-up goin' for it - stonkin' along. Even then, with fuel
burn off from the rear tank you will need to go to neutral.

I take off reflexed full up, and slowly reflex forward to neutral as I pick
up speed, then let it climb at 80kts and 1500fpm (full throttle)

Paul




"The Ives Hive" <iveshive@...> on 11/09/2000 01:02:10 PM

Please respond to Q-LIST@...

To: <Q-LIST@...>
cc:
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Aileron Reflexor


6 degrees of up delection and 2degrees of down.
Tom I





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Re: Oil Flows Q-200

Jon Finley <finley@...>
 

Where else?? To the Q-List files section.

http://www.egroups.com/group/Q-LIST select files. If you don't see it or
can't select then you are not signed on.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: David J. Gall [mailto:David@...]
Sent: November 09, 2000 8:59 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200


Larry,

Could you post a link to your pictures? I can't find your website address.

Thanks,


David J. Gall

----- Original Message -----
From: "L Koutz" <koutzl@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 2:19 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200


> I have added 11 JPG photos of my oil flow testing on a Q-200
>
> They show:
>
> Canard Wing root on both sides
> Canard wheel pants- inside, outside, top
> Wing root leading edge
> Wing tip top flow
>
> Some of the flows are ugly! Especially when I thought the rounded wheel
> pants were more aerodynamic -shows what I know!
>
> Sorry about some of the orientation of the pictures. I was trying to get
the
> "important" stuff all in a picture
>
> Will write more on these picts later-its late!
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...
>
> Quickie Builders Association WEB site
> http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html
>
>
>
>



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pic

Britt Crowell <britt@...>
 

The pics are on the egroups.com server. go login and go to the files area for the Q-list

Regards
Britt Crowell
TCD Webmaster
HP - Fort Collins - Non-HP Employee
970-898-1142


Re: Oil Flows Q-200

Pat Panzera <panzera@...>
 

L Koutz wrote:

I have added 11 JPG photos of my oil flow testing on a Q-200
Where?

Pat


Re: Aileron Reflexor

Greg Z.
 

When I take off or land I have my ailerons reflexed up just a little bit.
This gives me a neutral elevator allowing more authority on flair or takeoff.
As my speed builds up, or I level off for cruise I need to reflex my
elevators down, again to give me a neutral elevator. When I converted my bird
to a tri-Q, I just cut off the wheel pants flush with the bottom of the
canard, effectively giving me an extra 2 feet of lifting surface on the
canard. As I get to 190 mph I need to reflex the ailerons down quite a bit to
give the main wing enough extra lift to allow the elevator to be neutral.
This was the same characteristic I observed on another converted tri-Q but
not on a revmaster conventional Q that I sometimes flew. Greg Z 89RZ PS I
just installed an airtronic ignition system and it performs as advertised.


Re: Oil Flows Q-200

David J. Gall
 

Larry,

Could you post a link to your pictures? I can't find your website address.

Thanks,


David J. Gall

----- Original Message -----
From: "L Koutz" <koutzl@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 2:19 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200


I have added 11 JPG photos of my oil flow testing on a Q-200

They show:

Canard Wing root on both sides
Canard wheel pants- inside, outside, top
Wing root leading edge
Wing tip top flow

Some of the flows are ugly! Especially when I thought the rounded wheel
pants were more aerodynamic -shows what I know!

Sorry about some of the orientation of the pictures. I was trying to get
the
"important" stuff all in a picture

Will write more on these picts later-its late!

Larry




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://web2.airmail.net/qba321tm/q-page1.html




Re: Oil Flows Q-200

Jon Finley <finley@...>
 

Good work Larry!! Very interesting stuff there!

I am shocked at the airflow around the pants! I also thought the rounded
pant would be much better. Come on you guy that are flying!!! Oil flow
yours so we have something to compare to!! We know my shape sucks. Larry's
shape needs some work. WHAT CAN WE SAY ABOUT YOURS??

I think the canard root is showing about what we expected. Now, put a
temporary fillet on and repeat the test. I'd test mine (which has the a
vertically flat fillet - like we discussed) but its so stinking cold the oil
would freeze before I got into the air!! :-)

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: L Koutz [mailto:koutzl@...]
Sent: November 09, 2000 1:19 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Oil Flows Q-200


I have added 11 JPG photos of my oil flow testing on a Q-200

They show:

Canard Wing root on both sides
Canard wheel pants- inside, outside, top
Wing root leading edge
Wing tip top flow

Some of the flows are ugly! Especially when I thought the rounded wheel
pants were more aerodynamic -shows what I know!

Sorry about some of the orientation of the pictures. I was trying to get
the
"important" stuff all in a picture

Will write more on these picts later-its late!

Larry



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Re: Aileron Reflexor

The Ives Hive <iveshive@...>
 

6 degrees of up delection and 2degrees of down.
Tom I


Re: Aileron Reflexor

MartinErni@...
 

Scott Swing gave me these numbers many years ago for the travel limits on the
reflexor. Trailing edge 3/8 inches up to 1/4 inches down. This seems more
than adequate. Hope this helps.
Earnest Martin
Triq200 - 700 HR.


Re: Aileron Reflexor

Who is this?
 

Mine goes up quite a bit and down very little. I have never had the need to
fly it down . It is always up some.

dave