Date   

Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Terry Crouch
 

The answer for me would be yes.   Brief comments on ground angle of attack

When the original Quickie prototype started flying it had a lot of modifications before the plans came out. These can be seen in all the early photos in magazines etc. Added rudder instead of tail wheel fairing, multiple changes in tailwheel spring angle. When I built my Q1 I verified the ground angle of attack of the prototype. It was 7.5 degrees. That is how I built my airplane. Ground handling is great.
 Q2 plans addendum Q2PC9 dated July 1, 1981. Called a mandatory revision to plans, specs out how to set the ground angle of attack. Sentence from these instructions.    This limitation is to assist tailwheel first landings and three point takeoffs at mid/forward c.g.   
 My best guess is the ground angle of attach is limited to get the rear wing to quit flying sooner to get some pressure on the tailwheel.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC
1008 TT


-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony P <solarant@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jan 8, 2022 9:35 am
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Are people leaving the ground while still in a 3-point attitude?


--
Q2 N86KL


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Anthony P
 

Are people leaving the ground while still in a 3-point attitude?


--
Q2 N86KL


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

David J. Gall
 

Mike, why are you looking at the main wing here? It’s the canard that controls liftoff speed….

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 6:28 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

 

Finally found the Wainfan references I was looking for; wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy before weighing in. The following is quick, back of the envelope engiNerding meant for illustrative purposes more than anything, so play along for funsies...

Aerodynamically, the best things to reduce takeoff roll are to reduce wing loading and get as close to maximum lift coefficient (Clmax) as possible. Our wings are pretty well fixed (pun intended) so that leaves us getting close to Clmax via mounting angle (angle of attack). Looking *just* at the main wing airfoil, at a close but not perfect takeoff condition since I'm lazy (Reynolds 1M vs ~800k), we see Clmax occurs ~15 degress AoA. We are a tandem wing airplane, so we can't get close to that.

So the next best thing we can do is get as much angle as possible before drag (Cd) goes straight through the roof. That appears to happen in the 10ish degree range:



A good bet here - where we can't achieve max lift - would be to maximize "lifting efficiency", or Cl/Cd for us engineer types. That appears to occur within a neat little plateau from around 10±2.5 degrees...SMACK where Jay has observed it on flying airplanes:



So basically...don't stress it too much. There's a fair bit of wiggle room, and Flying Airplanes don't lie 😉
--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

David J. Gall
 

Since we’re only interested in “ground angle of attack” the analysis centers on the canard with “flap extended” (full aft stick). Set the “ground angle of attack” via the tailspring installed angle/length so that in the three-point attitude the canard can get close to its full-aft-stick CLmax to permit liftoff at minimum speed (and to be able to land at minimum touchdown speed).

 

Since the tailwheel prevents the airplane from being rotated nose-up while rolling in the three-point attitude, setting the “ground angle of attack” to a too-low pitch attitude that prevents achieving nearly CLmax will mean that the airplane will need to continue accelerating on the ground until the lower angle of attack/CL and the higher speed satisfy the lift equation to overcome gravity. Yes, it is possible that a lower ground angle of attack *might* yield less drag during acceleration so that the higher liftoff speed would be attained in a shorter distance, but who’s got the analysis horsepower for that effort? And anyway, if one thinks that to be the case, the stick also serves as a drag control on the ground – don’t pull full aft stick until close to liftoff speed.

 

Set the “ground angle of attack” the old-school way like the Piper Cub guy did, so that the “front wing” (canard) can make close to its CLmax while still in the three-point attitude and, thereby, liftoff at minimum flying speed.

 

You’ll note that I couched references to the CLmax term with a “close to” at every instance; this is so that liftoff actually occurs at something a little bit faster than stall speed. It’s no fun lifting off and climbing out of ground effect only to stall right away. About a one degree lower “ground angle of attack” margin will give a 0.1 CL margin above stall. The liftoff still happens well below (L/D)max so the initial acceleration in ground effect is on the “back side of the power curve” -- some airplanes are so draggy that the margin needs to be more than just one degree, but I think the Q2/Q200 is a fairly low-drag design, so a one degree margin below the CLmax “ground angle of attack” should be sufficient to prevent unexpected settling back onto the runway after liftoff.

 

Worth every penny you paid for it, my advice is only an opinion and I hereby declaim any and all liability for anything bad that comes of it. (Kudos and accolades for good outcomes may be expressed via copious amounts of cash, as always.)

 

 

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 6:28 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

 

Finally found the Wainfan references I was looking for; wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy before weighing in. The following is quick, back of the envelope engiNerding meant for illustrative purposes more than anything, so play along for funsies...

Aerodynamically, the best things to reduce takeoff roll are to reduce wing loading and get as close to maximum lift coefficient (Clmax) as possible. Our wings are pretty well fixed (pun intended) so that leaves us getting close to Clmax via mounting angle (angle of attack). Looking *just* at the main wing airfoil, at a close but not perfect takeoff condition since I'm lazy (Reynolds 1M vs ~800k), we see Clmax occurs ~15 degress AoA. We are a tandem wing airplane, so we can't get close to that.

So the next best thing we can do is get as much angle as possible before drag (Cd) goes straight through the roof. That appears to happen in the 10ish degree range:



A good bet here - where we can't achieve max lift - would be to maximize "lifting efficiency", or Cl/Cd for us engineer types. That appears to occur within a neat little plateau from around 10±2.5 degrees...SMACK where Jay has observed it on flying airplanes:



So basically...don't stress it too much. There's a fair bit of wiggle room, and Flying Airplanes don't lie 😉
--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Michael Dunning
 

Finally found the Wainfan references I was looking for; wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy before weighing in. The following is quick, back of the envelope engiNerding meant for illustrative purposes more than anything, so play along for funsies...

Aerodynamically, the best things to reduce takeoff roll are to reduce wing loading and get as close to maximum lift coefficient (Clmax) as possible. Our wings are pretty well fixed (pun intended) so that leaves us getting close to Clmax via mounting angle (angle of attack). Looking *just* at the main wing airfoil, at a close but not perfect takeoff condition since I'm lazy (Reynolds 1M vs ~800k), we see Clmax occurs ~15 degress AoA. We are a tandem wing airplane, so we can't get close to that.

So the next best thing we can do is get as much angle as possible before drag (Cd) goes straight through the roof. That appears to happen in the 10ish degree range:



A good bet here - where we can't achieve max lift - would be to maximize "lifting efficiency", or Cl/Cd for us engineer types. That appears to occur within a neat little plateau from around 10±2.5 degrees...SMACK where Jay has observed it on flying airplanes:



So basically...don't stress it too much. There's a fair bit of wiggle room, and Flying Airplanes don't lie 😉
--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Bruce Crain
 

We actually have two badges.  One we leave at the gate and the other stays on a lanyard around our neck or clip onto our shirts.  Both have our names and pictures on them so they can verify it is actually us walking out of the prison.  The badge also helps in case of a problem or riot.  We also wear checkered shirts to identify us from inmates in case the guards come in blazing.  If you’re on the ground and in a checkered shirt you might be ushered out more quickly.  
My friend Ralph entered once with his team sweat shirt from OSU.  It was Orange and Ralph was sitting with his circle of inmates for prayer and share.  (Their inmate clothing is total orange).  I asked them if they had seen Ralph a couple of times before Ralph said “oh you  son of a gun”.  The inmates fell out laughing!  I don’t remember if Ralph made that mistake again.

Bruce


On Jan 6, 2022, at 2:24 PM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

 Jay,

Yes you need the badge to open the get to get out at Ogden but they dropped making you enter your PIN number to get out. You need the badge and secret PIN number to get in.

Charlie.





On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 1:17 PM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Do you need to have the badge to exit the prison?  😊

 

Sorry, could not resist.

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 12:14 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

I am required to have background check and badge to enter the prison that we minister.  Are pilots now considered "Terrorists"?  Probably thanks to 911 and other attacks.  And the border is porous so....

My 2 cents.

Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Ryszard Zadow" <ryszardzadow@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Cc: Q_List <Q-List@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:19:11 -0500

 

 

On Jan 6, 2022, at 12:14, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

New regulations for hangar use at KOGD proof city hates GA pilots and builders.

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS 

 

 

 

 

POLICY 2040 NONAERONAUTICAL USE OF AIRPORT HANGARS

Legal publisher offering ordinance codification services for local governments, specializing in providing codes of ordinances in print and on the Internet

 

 

 

Charlie

 






 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 10:05 AM, One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...> wrote:

Mike,

 

Here is KOGD info it is a pain and Ogden City hates general aviation pilots and hangar owners.

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT 

 

 

 

 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT

 

 

 

 

 

Charlie



 

On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 9:27 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:

Hi All,

Do any of you own/rent hangars at USA airports that have Scheduled airlines?

 

If so, I'd like to know how your airport handles TSA Badge requirements.

 

KPIE started charging a $20 a year badge fee and makes us take a TSA test on driving airport tugs and reporting bags that are left laying around... none of which we have at the General Aviation hangars!

 

The badge manager and I had a discussion.  He believes that all pilots flying have some sort of training and badges that allow them to walk on the ramp.  I told him that I could fly into any airport in the country and I don't need no stinking badge!  LOL.

 

Thanks,

Mike Dwyer Q200

 

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF

 

 




Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Anthony P
 

I need a badge and PIN at KBED.  It's mainly business/private charter there.  Commercial flight once in a blue moon.
I didn't need the training for driving in the non-movement areas or ramp because I do not have that level of authorization from my sponsor, which is the aero club.
Early in my training it was ok to be escorted by my CFI.
If you fly in and stay on the ramp, you don't need one.
If you want to go through an FBO to rental cars or taxi, you need a special escort from the FBO.
They do have TSA agents at the main building/entrance and a carry-on x-ray machine.

Saying any more would constitute a breach of my agreement with the port authority, the state police, TSA, and probably Dept. of Home Land Security.



BUT, after 7 months, the FAA finally recognizes me as the owner of a Quickie!!!   
And for that, I'm very happy.


--
Q2 N86KL


Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Michael Dunning
 

Hangar at KHSV...big airport, big runways (feel free to check).

Initial training on airport security and ground operations (aka please don't drive your car into an airliner) => initial badge. Badge expires every 12 calendar months with a 30 day leeway. If you fill out the 1 page renewal form within that timespan, you can just email the form to the security manager and then go stop by and pick up your new badge + ramp sticker (never stuck it). I let it fully lapse the first year and had to retake the training.

At least here our badges are free and the gate works off a fancy RFID chip embedded in the badge, so no passcodes.
--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Jay Scheevel
 

Did a quick survey of the planes I have measured over the years. These are all tail-draggers that have been flying for years, most of them decades (not attaching names/N-numbers to protect the innocent):

Degrees ground angle (unloaded)
8.97
8.84
7.8
8.98
7.95
9.36
8.1
6.5
8.35
8.5
7.5

Only a very few of these planes had zero decalage, so I averaged the MW and Canard angles to arrive at the average wing ground angle.

Also, based on 5 different planes where I had inflight videos, all aircraft including tri-gear flared and touched down between 8 and 10 degrees AOA.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Walterson
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 5:15 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Troy------- I am probably wrong , but I think somewhere i read that the angle is 7.5---8.5. I had sent a few pictures of my airplane to Jay and he did the check for angle and I came out where I should be. I have only flow it twice , but it seems good.

Sometimes " lucky" is better than smart.----------- Chris


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Chris Walterson
 

Troy------- I am probably wrong , but I  think somewhere  i read that the angle is 7.5---8.5.  I had sent a few pictures of my airplane to Jay and he did the check for angle and I came out where I should be.  I have only flow it twice , but it seems good.

 Sometimes " lucky" is better than smart.-----------  Chris


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Jay Scheevel
 

My Dad and I had a friend, now passed, who was a United Airlines pilot after mustering out of the Army Air Corps as bomber pilot. He said  he and all the other WWII pilots at United wore sidearms on commercial flights. I asked why. He said they just felt like it was part of the uniform, since flight officers carried sidearms as part of their kit during the war. I asked when the airline asked them to stop doing that. He said “around 1965”. That was about the time that airlines started being hijacked. Hmmm…

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Paul Fisher
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 4:33 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

Interesting Jay, that was Archie Bunker's idea to solve the problem of people hijacking planes to Cuba so many years ago!

 

On Thu, Jan 6, 2022, 17:27 Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

I had a friend whose dad used to say that locks are to keep honest people out. Terrorists tend to find a way to terrorize.

 

My solution to air travel security after 9/11 was to have a rack of single shot pistols at the boarding door of the plane, then issue one to each adult as they walk onto the plane, and collect them at the other end. Basically, the plane is going to go where everyone on board wants it to go. Any minority opinions would be greatly discouraged.

 

Of course, this recommendation never really caught on…. But it would have been cheaper than an entire government agency.

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rick Hole via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 4:12 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

Before I retired in 2016 my home base was Sebastian, Florida (at Velocity).  Badges had been required for years.  Passcodes at the gates.  Pilot were expected to report anything suspicious. 

I was in a T-hanger when an unknown car and person drive up to the gate, went to his trunk and removed an old stop sign with a tether road, tossed it under the gate to trigger the exit-open and drove through. 

I called the local police and did not approach the guy.  Police first spoke to me, then to him.  Later they told me he had a pilot license and with 15 minutes of search was able to find and show them his badge.

I supposed throwing a stop sign must have been more convenient than remembering his passcode.

Rick Hole

 

,_


Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Paul Fisher
 

Interesting Jay, that was Archie Bunker's idea to solve the problem of people hijacking planes to Cuba so many years ago!


On Thu, Jan 6, 2022, 17:27 Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

I had a friend whose dad used to say that locks are to keep honest people out. Terrorists tend to find a way to terrorize.

 

My solution to air travel security after 9/11 was to have a rack of single shot pistols at the boarding door of the plane, then issue one to each adult as they walk onto the plane, and collect them at the other end. Basically, the plane is going to go where everyone on board wants it to go. Any minority opinions would be greatly discouraged.

 

Of course, this recommendation never really caught on…. But it would have been cheaper than an entire government agency.

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rick Hole via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 4:12 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

Before I retired in 2016 my home base was Sebastian, Florida (at Velocity).  Badges had been required for years.  Passcodes at the gates.  Pilot were expected to report anything suspicious. 

I was in a T-hanger when an unknown car and person drive up to the gate, went to his trunk and removed an old stop sign with a tether road, tossed it under the gate to trigger the exit-open and drove through. 

I called the local police and did not approach the guy.  Police first spoke to me, then to him.  Later they told me he had a pilot license and with 15 minutes of search was able to find and show them his badge.

I supposed throwing a stop sign must have been more convenient than remembering his passcode.

Rick Hole

 

,_


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Troy Zawlacki
 

Thank you all for the input on this. I have read various different opinions online but there is no better source than a seasoned group of pilots. 

My canard (LS1) was purchased by the previous owner of this kit back in the 80s from a company called Quality Aircraft Components (QAC, suspicious right?). For whatever reason, the anhedral angle is a little steeper than the plans, so I knew my plane would sit taller in the front than most, which is what led me to asking the question in the first place. 

Thank you again for chiming in, now I feel comfortable to proceed and mount the tail spring.

TAZ

On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:08 PM, Martin Skiby <mskiby@...> wrote:

Follow David Gall’s advice here.   It works.

Martin
On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:59 PM, David J. Gall <David@...> wrote:

TAZ,

Do the Jim-Bob six-pack (all six), do the alignment, and don't worry about the "ground angle of attack." That was a Gene Sheehan red herring that never made any sense except to deflect customer complaints. As long as your nose isn’t so high in the air as to cause the canard to be stalled while rolling with full aft stick you'll be fine.


David J. Gall


-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Troy Zawlacki
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 11:10 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io Group Moderators <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Well I guess I can interpret this as nobody really having a strong opinion on the topic. I’ll proceed with my setup and my ground aoa at 11 degrees and see how she goes!

TAZ

On Jan 4, 2022, at 10:04 PM, Troy Zawlacki <troyzc3@...> wrote:

Q-pilots,

I have a question about the ground angle of attack note in the Q2 appendix "plans changes.” The note calls for setting WL15 level, and measuring from the ground to the bottom of the tailwheel. It gives a recommended range of 25-28.6” for this measurement. 

I am well versed in the Gall wheel alignment, and have just completed that on my plane. I am also pretty sure this note pre-dates the issues that were solved with the Gall alignment, but the Gall paper also doesn’t give an adjusted range for this tailwheel measurement.. There must still be a range right?

Plus, too much AoA on the ground would mean more drag during takeoff and longer runway required right?

Sam, 

I read your blog post about changing your tailwheel angle back shallower for reduced drag (and since you have a proper alignment now). Do you have any idea what this measurement ended up being on your plane (ground to wheel)? My plane right now with the tail spring sitting in what looks right (parallel to top fuselage shell) has a measurement of 33” or 4.5” higher than the plans note.

I’m excited to hear some thoughts on this before I bond my tail spring in.

TAZ
















Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Jay Scheevel
 

I had a friend whose dad used to say that locks are to keep honest people out. Terrorists tend to find a way to terrorize.

 

My solution to air travel security after 9/11 was to have a rack of single shot pistols at the boarding door of the plane, then issue one to each adult as they walk onto the plane, and collect them at the other end. Basically, the plane is going to go where everyone on board wants it to go. Any minority opinions would be greatly discouraged.

 

Of course, this recommendation never really caught on…. But it would have been cheaper than an entire government agency.

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rick Hole via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 4:12 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

Before I retired in 2016 my home base was Sebastian, Florida (at Velocity).  Badges had been required for years.  Passcodes at the gates.  Pilot were expected to report anything suspicious. 

I was in a T-hanger when an unknown car and person drive up to the gate, went to his trunk and removed an old stop sign with a tether road, tossed it under the gate to trigger the exit-open and drove through. 

I called the local police and did not approach the guy.  Police first spoke to me, then to him.  Later they told me he had a pilot license and with 15 minutes of search was able to find and show them his badge.

I supposed throwing a stop sign must have been more convenient than remembering his passcode.

Rick Hole

 

,_


Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Rick Hole
 

Before I retired in 2016 my home base was Sebastian, Florida (at Velocity).  Badges had been required for years.  Passcodes at the gates.  Pilot were expected to report anything suspicious. 

I was in a T-hanger when an unknown car and person drive up to the gate, went to his trunk and removed an old stop sign with a tether road, tossed it under the gate to trigger the exit-open and drove through. 

I called the local police and did not approach the guy.  Police first spoke to me, then to him.  Later they told me he had a pilot license and with 15 minutes of search was able to find and show them his badge.

I supposed throwing a stop sign must have been more convenient than remembering his passcode.

Rick Hole

 

,_


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Martin Skiby
 

Follow David Gall’s advice here. It works.

Martin

On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:59 PM, David J. Gall <David@...> wrote:

TAZ,

Do the Jim-Bob six-pack (all six), do the alignment, and don't worry about the "ground angle of attack." That was a Gene Sheehan red herring that never made any sense except to deflect customer complaints. As long as your nose isn’t so high in the air as to cause the canard to be stalled while rolling with full aft stick you'll be fine.


David J. Gall


-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Troy Zawlacki
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 11:10 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io Group Moderators <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Well I guess I can interpret this as nobody really having a strong opinion on the topic. I’ll proceed with my setup and my ground aoa at 11 degrees and see how she goes!

TAZ

On Jan 4, 2022, at 10:04 PM, Troy Zawlacki <troyzc3@...> wrote:

Q-pilots,

I have a question about the ground angle of attack note in the Q2 appendix "plans changes.” The note calls for setting WL15 level, and measuring from the ground to the bottom of the tailwheel. It gives a recommended range of 25-28.6” for this measurement.

I am well versed in the Gall wheel alignment, and have just completed that on my plane. I am also pretty sure this note pre-dates the issues that were solved with the Gall alignment, but the Gall paper also doesn’t give an adjusted range for this tailwheel measurement.. There must still be a range right?

Plus, too much AoA on the ground would mean more drag during takeoff and longer runway required right?

Sam,

I read your blog post about changing your tailwheel angle back shallower for reduced drag (and since you have a proper alignment now). Do you have any idea what this measurement ended up being on your plane (ground to wheel)? My plane right now with the tail spring sitting in what looks right (parallel to top fuselage shell) has a measurement of 33” or 4.5” higher than the plans note.

I’m excited to hear some thoughts on this before I bond my tail spring in.

TAZ










Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

David J. Gall
 

TAZ,

Do the Jim-Bob six-pack (all six), do the alignment, and don't worry about the "ground angle of attack." That was a Gene Sheehan red herring that never made any sense except to deflect customer complaints. As long as your nose isn’t so high in the air as to cause the canard to be stalled while rolling with full aft stick you'll be fine.


David J. Gall

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Troy Zawlacki
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 11:10 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io Group Moderators <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Well I guess I can interpret this as nobody really having a strong opinion on the topic. I’ll proceed with my setup and my ground aoa at 11 degrees and see how she goes!

TAZ

On Jan 4, 2022, at 10:04 PM, Troy Zawlacki <troyzc3@...> wrote:

Q-pilots,

I have a question about the ground angle of attack note in the Q2 appendix "plans changes.” The note calls for setting WL15 level, and measuring from the ground to the bottom of the tailwheel. It gives a recommended range of 25-28.6” for this measurement.

I am well versed in the Gall wheel alignment, and have just completed that on my plane. I am also pretty sure this note pre-dates the issues that were solved with the Gall alignment, but the Gall paper also doesn’t give an adjusted range for this tailwheel measurement.. There must still be a range right?

Plus, too much AoA on the ground would mean more drag during takeoff and longer runway required right?

Sam,

I read your blog post about changing your tailwheel angle back shallower for reduced drag (and since you have a proper alignment now). Do you have any idea what this measurement ended up being on your plane (ground to wheel)? My plane right now with the tail spring sitting in what looks right (parallel to top fuselage shell) has a measurement of 33” or 4.5” higher than the plans note.

I’m excited to hear some thoughts on this before I bond my tail spring in.

TAZ


Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

David J. Gall
 

“The badge manager and I had a discussion.  He believes that all pilots flying have some sort of training and badges that allow them to walk on the ramp.”

 

Your badge manager CLEARLY failed the TSA training he’s supposed to have attended. Please tell this bozo that the whole intent of the TSA training is to ENLIST the pilot population as ALLIES in surveillance, not to alienate them and cause resentment. Pilots are not “allowed” to walk on the ramp – pilots are EXPECTED to walk on the ramp and REPORT suspicious activity, not BE suspects in the eyes of the local autocrats. Sheesh. And a course on baggage handling and tug driving is for baggage handlers and tug drivers, not pilots. Double-sheesh!!

 

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Dwyer
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 8:27 AM
To: Q_List <Q-List@groups.io>
Subject: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports

 

Hi All,

Do any of you own/rent hangars at USA airports that have Scheduled airlines?

 

If so, I'd like to know how your airport handles TSA Badge requirements.

 

KPIE started charging a $20 a year badge fee and makes us take a TSA test on driving airport tugs and reporting bags that are left laying around... none of which we have at the General Aviation hangars!

 

The badge manager and I had a discussion.  He believes that all pilots flying have some sort of training and badges that allow them to walk on the ramp.  I told him that I could fly into any airport in the country and I don't need no stinking badge!  LOL.

 

Thanks,

Mike Dwyer Q200

 

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


Re: Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

Frankenbird Vern
 

 This is in my build log also. My tailwheel spring is round steel..arc to meet the 8 degree ramp angle. I may end up 
setting a bit more arc since the MKII gear I have in works is more as the RV6..or Tailwind.  In any case my target is 8 
degrees as Jay provides here.      

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 2:42 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle
 

Here is the factory prototype Q200 with a measurement on the firewall like Jim is suggesting (8 degrees from vertical).

 

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 1:40 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

 

Troy,

 

With the tail wheel on the ground and an inclinometer on the firewall


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 11:28:08 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle

 

Problem is it has been a long time for lots of us from the time we went through this mod.  There are a lot of variables with respect to ground handling.  The Gall alignment,  bell crank that Jim Pattilo has on his Q200, differential braking with the rudder pedals or only having one "Johnson Bar" brake or two finger pull brakes with differential braking.  Several ways to improve the ground handling of which angle of attack is one of them.  I did what you are looking at plus I added a large non pneumatic tail wheel which helped.  Also the reflexor attached to the ailerons helps as well.  I converted mine to a TriQ 200 but flew as a Q200 for a while.  Tri Q is a different animal for ground control but slows it down a bit.  

You can do all of them if you like but many of our builders have different ideas about which one or two work best.  

You are looking the right direction to tame this bird so don't give up!  Trouble is I don't remember the numbers for degrees static.

Bruce Crain  N96BJ



---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Troy Zawlacki" <troyzc3@...>
To: "main@Q-List.groups.io Group Moderators" <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Ground AoA/ tailwheel angle
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 11:10:26 -0800

Well I guess I can interpret this as nobody really having a strong opinion on the topic. I’ll proceed with my setup and my ground aoa at 11 degrees and see how she goes!

TAZ

> On Jan 4, 2022, at 10:04 PM, Troy Zawlacki <troyzc3@...> wrote:
>
> Q-pilots,
>
> I have a question about the ground angle of attack note in the Q2 appendix "plans changes.” The note calls for setting WL15 level, and measuring from the ground to the bottom of the tailwheel. It gives a recommended range of 25-28.6” for this measurement.
>
> I am well versed in the Gall wheel alignment, and have just completed that on my plane. I am also pretty sure this note pre-dates the issues that were solved with the Gall alignment, but the Gall paper also doesn’t give an adjusted range for this tailwheel measurement.. There must still be a range right?
>
> Plus, too much AoA on the ground would mean more drag during takeoff and longer runway required right?
>
> Sam,
>
> I read your blog post about changing your tailwheel angle back shallower for reduced drag (and since you have a proper alignment now). Do you have any idea what this measurement ended up being on your plane (ground to wheel)? My plane right now with the tail spring sitting in what looks right (parallel to top fuselage shell) has a measurement of 33” or 4.5” higher than the plans note.
>
> I’m excited to hear some thoughts on this before I bond my tail spring in.
>
> TAZ

 


Re: Airport Operations at Commercial airports

Frankenbird Vern
 

 Interesting.. so what happens to the 1 year limit inoperable, Charlie? Chop it up and truck it off to the dump? You remember some years ago when a ton of money was flowing into the renovation of airports in order to "stimulate" the economy? The airports were forced to take the funds even when the airport managers were saying (in my area anyway..and that would be Pouge Sand Springs and Alva Municipal specifically) that any "renovations" were totally not required.

 I remember asking about this when visiting the fields as a search for a home FBO base, and the managers were actually laughing at the idiocy of the money being forced on them regardless of the facts they repeatedly showed proof no improvements OR upgrades were required at the time at those GA airport.  Now we see the strings attached to the money. The government is here once again to help us. 

 By the way..my opinion is Pilots are among the most educated of peoples. I can't think of many other activities where risk is NOT ONLY to ourselves, but those below. By nature we are already in a protective mode of our own "turf", and especially when considering the aircraft represent a sizable dollar and time outlay.  

 Recently I was at Paine Field (KPAE). Its pretty difficult to get a more critical airfield than that one. It is Commercial Airline, GA, and Boeing Delivery INCLUDING military operations. Similar to Tulsa International in fact.  I have flown as PIC from both airport many times in the past. There is a passcode to access the gate for GA access. The pilots entering monitor anyone trying to piggyback in. No one enters without being questioned to the hilt OR they have passcode. Even then I suspect an unknown person would be challenged! 

Same as I did when I went to work at Boeing on the 767 Tanker every work day last October. We did not "hold the door" for anyone. No passcode..no entry.  

  No pilot was wearing badges at Paine Field that I observed, nor was required to that I heard.  

 What a stupid requirement, and it has nothing to do with gaining hangar space. If it is part of the ever expanding TSA garbage, do the D.C. idiots forcing this mandate think somehow an organized terrorist group can't forge a badge? Better to have the pilots themselves police GA as I observed personally at KPAE.  The only other conclusion is Charlie is correct. Cut out the private GA folks as much as possible, then piss and moan why there are fewer younger pilots and mechanics to support aviation of all kinds.     

 Vern.

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of One Sky Dog via groups.io <Oneskydog@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 11:14 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>; Q_List <Q-List@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Airport Operations at Commercial airports
 

Mike,

Here is KOGD info it is a pain and Ogden City hates general aviation pilots and hangar owners.

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT 

Airport Badging | Ogden, UT




Charlie





On Thursday, January 6, 2022, 9:27 AM, Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:

Hi All,
Do any of you own/rent hangars at USA airports that have Scheduled airlines?

If so, I'd like to know how your airport handles TSA Badge requirements.

KPIE started charging a $20 a year badge fee and makes us take a TSA test on driving airport tugs and reporting bags that are left laying around... none of which we have at the General Aviation hangars!

The badge manager and I had a discussion.  He believes that all pilots flying have some sort of training and badges that allow them to walk on the ramp.  I told him that I could fly into any airport in the country and I don't need no stinking badge!  LOL.

Thanks,
Mike Dwyer Q200

Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF