Thanks Jim,
The Norton setup was based on two simple independent EI units which are independently switched from a common shared power supply. I like this setup because each EI unit fires (in the case of 0-200) 4 plugs so the engine runs with very small "mag drop".In operation both EI units are run continuous after a preflight test to confirm "mag drop" . With the Norton setup it is hard to detect any rpm drop when one unit is off. If one unit fails in flight there is no noticeable loss of power and no action required to switch or restart the engine. The setup is similar in that sense to running a magneto.It is fully redundant continuous ignition.
The installation was done according to the installation manual supplied and I used the wiring harness as supplied.There was no warning about protection of the power supply, and I think not (by Midwest) even today . That is why I have raised the subject .
Now that there are several EI systems available and some others may be without this warning, and some require switching to a backup system after the engine stops. It is important in every case to ensure protection from power supply failure and power supply over voltage .
In my case the damage was gradually done over many 30min test flights when the only clue was weak ignition at high rpm
I spent a lot of time checking plugs and leads and harness connections but was satisfied my system was complete and safe as supplied. No way. I had a single battery,no voltage warning device. None recommended.I know better now.
It is probable that final failure was sequential during the last flight ie one unit failed and increased load on the second (already weakened) caused it to fail soon after. From 3000ft 2 mi from the airstrip I turned final at 1000ft 80kts expecting to slip down to land but found the morning sea wind had started gusting from 5 to 20kts. and my RH wheel clipped the top of a fence post, the Q rotated 180deg and fell on the LH canard which broke when the spar shattered.Both the wheel pants sheared off clean and a star picket slashed under my seat leaving velcro untouched, and slashed the fuel tank. It was not my day.
I have fitted a protection circuit with 3x 12A shunt mosfets which are switched on when supply voltage is more than 16V and this will take the excess alternator output and I have a volt/ampmeter in the panel. I have a new full EFI system by GEMS UK and will add fuel injection later.
Sounds like you are also well protected Jim, and enjoy that flight.
Peter

<Maybe your situation qualified as a single point failure. One source,
an overvoltaged regulator or alternator, over time destroying both EI
brains.

Were both EI's running from the same battery/alternator? Did you have
a way to know that you were over volting? Did you have a way to
switch one system completely out of the loop? I presume in your
case, it was too late when discovered. Both EI's just completely shut
down at the same time? That must have been interesting. How far from
the airport were you? As far as manual switching, what are you
saying? Wouldn't it be better to manually switch something to
continue flight?

Thanks Jim Patillo N46JP Q200

Should be wrapping up my installation in the next couple days and
will do a comparrison report of before and after. May have some pix
tonight. >

Jim I have no magneto. It is a Norton installation.I was running

dual EIS installed as originally supplied (early model)and both
failed together after some hours exposed to unseen overvoltage.

The battery is no use when the dual EIS is dead.
But I am not in favour of "dual" meaning "back up" which requires

manual switching when the engine stops.

The message is to make sure any EI system is protected and visual

warnings or alarm as well.

Peter


--- In Q-LIST@..., "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris@b...>
wrote:

Re power supplies I have had two different voltage regulator

failures.The first on the Revmaster caused the battery to boil

after

a 4 hr flight.The second on the Norton caused excessive voltage
supply to the electronic ignition which saturated the coils at

cruise

rpm causing total EI failure after several hours. That is when I
broke the canard.

I would recommend fitting a safety circuit which will take the

excess alternator output when voltage exceed 15V . Also I have

fitted

a dual volt/amp meter so I can see output on the panel.

I guess there are other fixes, but remember that a voltage

regulator can fail.

Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: rondefly
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 1:45 AM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: New Quickie Owners


Jim, B&C has 60 amp alternator's that mount either belt at the

bottom of the

engine or case mount, but said for lycoming, not sure if they

are

adaptable

for continental or not. here is the web page.
http://www.bandc.biz/L60desc.html

Ron T

Ron Triano, Quickerone

http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page3.h

tml

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Patillo [mailto:patillo@a...]
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 7:30 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: New Quickie Owners



John,

I am using the standard 60AH Cessna alternator bolted in on

the

bottom of the accessory case. I would like t change it to a

B&C

but I

think they only make a 12 AH which might be a little light

for

night

or light IFR.

Jim P. Q200 N46JP


--- In Q-LIST@..., "John Cartledge"

<urecomps@a...>

wrote:

> Jim,
> Which alternator are you using and is it installed

where the

original
> generator like I have is situated?
> I ask because I reckon I need to get an alternator

and

starter

> installed ( Armstrong start now!) before looking at

electronic

ignition.
> Thanks for your input.
> Regards

John

Cartledge
> VH LOQ 260 hrs



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Brad,

This is an interesting and informative subject, please let us know what
you find out.

Sam

Brad Olson wrote:

Peter,

Thanks for the insite. I've been looking at single point failure
modes for my setup and found none.

Maybe your situation qualified as a single point failure. One source,
an overvoltaged regulator or alternator, over time destroying both EI
brains.

Were both EI's running from the same battery/alternator? Did you have
a way to know that you were over volting? Did you have a way to
switch one system completely out of the loop? I presume in your
case, it was too late when discovered. Both EI's just completely shut
down at the same time? That must have been interesting. How far from
the airport were you? As far as manual switching, what are you
saying? Wouldn't it be better to manually switch something to
continue flight?

Thanks Jim Patillo N46JP Q200

Should be wrapping up my installation in the next couple days and
will do a comparrison report of before and after. May have some pix
tonight.

Jim I have no magneto. It is a Norton installation.I was running

dual EIS installed as originally supplied (early model)and both
failed together after some hours exposed to unseen overvoltage.

The battery is no use when the dual EIS is dead.
But I am not in favour of "dual" meaning "back up" which requires

manual switching when the engine stops.

The message is to make sure any EI system is protected and visual

warnings or alarm as well.

Peter


--- In Q-LIST@..., "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris@b...>
wrote:

Re power supplies I have had two different voltage regulator

failures.The first on the Revmaster caused the battery to boil

after

a 4 hr flight.The second on the Norton caused excessive voltage
supply to the electronic ignition which saturated the coils at

cruise

rpm causing total EI failure after several hours. That is when I
broke the canard.

I would recommend fitting a safety circuit which will take the

excess alternator output when voltage exceed 15V . Also I have

fitted

a dual volt/amp meter so I can see output on the panel.

I guess there are other fixes, but remember that a voltage

regulator can fail.

Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: rondefly
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 1:45 AM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: New Quickie Owners


Jim, B&C has 60 amp alternator's that mount either belt at the

bottom of the

engine or case mount, but said for lycoming, not sure if they

are

adaptable

for continental or not. here is the web page.
http://www.bandc.biz/L60desc.html

Ron T

Ron Triano, Quickerone

http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page3.h

tml

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Patillo [mailto:patillo@a...]
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 7:30 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: New Quickie Owners



John,

I am using the standard 60AH Cessna alternator bolted in on

the

bottom of the accessory case. I would like t change it to a

B&C

but I

think they only make a 12 AH which might be a little light

for

night

or light IFR.

Jim P. Q200 N46JP


--- In Q-LIST@..., "John Cartledge"

<urecomps@a...>

wrote:

> Jim,
> Which alternator are you using and is it installed

where the

original
> generator like I have is situated?
> I ask because I reckon I need to get an alternator

and

starter

> installed ( Armstrong start now!) before looking at

electronic

ignition.
> Thanks for your input.
> Regards

John

Cartledge
> VH LOQ 260 hrs



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I think some of the group use Cheng Shin tires and I discovered yesterday that Great Plains A/C Supply sell them in 4.10/3.50 - 5 size @ just under $29.00 for tube & tire. Just an FYI.

http://www.greatplainsas.com/pg37.html

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
A Sign Above
Omaha NE

Curt,

Sorry - this was intended as an email. I will contact you directly.

Brad Olson

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Brad Olson" <n1tm@p...> wrote:

Curt,

I saw your post. Thanks for the info on the GRT EIS. I am going

to

go ahead and buy one - the 4000 model, with manafold pressure
sensor, possibly fuel tank sensors (if they will work on a Q200),

I

may look at a direct drive tach sensor, and get a OAT probe.

Do you a sell them?

Any info would be appreciated.

Brad Olson

Curt,

I saw your post. Thanks for the info on the GRT EIS. I am going to
go ahead and buy one - the 4000 model, with manafold pressure
sensor, possibly fuel tank sensors (if they will work on a Q200), I
may look at a direct drive tach sensor, and get a OAT probe.

Do you a sell them?

Any info would be appreciated.

Brad Olson

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Curt Heggemeyer" <curth@n...> wrote:

If you need to buy an EIS I can get you a good deal on them.

Curt
----- Original Message -----

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Olson" <n1tm@p...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 8:20 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Grand Rapids EIS

I'm planning a new panel and want to use a GRT EIS. All of
the feedback I've received from non Q drivers is that the unit

is

first class. Is anyone using one in a Q and are there any
installation quirks or issues I should consider?

Thanks,

Brad Olson
N321TM

Jim,
<But I have never seen an alternator/regulator and battery fail at
the same time.

Why didn't you switch to your second CDI or mag which was totally
independent, keep flying and not break your canard?

Thanks
Jim Patillo N46JP Q200..>

Jim I have no magneto. It is a Norton installation.I was running dual EIS installed as originally supplied (early model)and both failed together after some hours exposed to unseen overvoltage.
The battery is no use when the dual EIS is dead.
But I am not in favour of "dual" meaning "back up" which requires manual switching when the engine stops.
The message is to make sure any EI system is protected and visual warnings or alarm as well.
Peter


--- In Q-LIST@..., "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris@b...>
wrote:

Re power supplies I have had two different voltage regulator

failures.The first on the Revmaster caused the battery to boil after
a 4 hr flight.The second on the Norton caused excessive voltage
supply to the electronic ignition which saturated the coils at cruise
rpm causing total EI failure after several hours. That is when I
broke the canard.

I would recommend fitting a safety circuit which will take the

excess alternator output when voltage exceed 15V . Also I have fitted
a dual volt/amp meter so I can see output on the panel.

I guess there are other fixes, but remember that a voltage

regulator can fail.

Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: rondefly
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 1:45 AM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: New Quickie Owners


Jim, B&C has 60 amp alternator's that mount either belt at the

bottom of the

engine or case mount, but said for lycoming, not sure if they are

adaptable

for continental or not. here is the web page.
http://www.bandc.biz/L60desc.html

Ron T

Ron Triano, Quickerone

http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page3.h
tml

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Patillo [mailto:patillo@a...]
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 7:30 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: New Quickie Owners



John,

I am using the standard 60AH Cessna alternator bolted in on the
bottom of the accessory case. I would like t change it to a B&C

but I

think they only make a 12 AH which might be a little light for

night

or light IFR.

Jim P. Q200 N46JP


--- In Q-LIST@..., "John Cartledge" <urecomps@a...>

wrote:

> Jim,
> Which alternator are you using and is it installed

where the

original
> generator like I have is situated?
> I ask because I reckon I need to get an alternator and

starter

> installed ( Armstrong start now!) before looking at electronic
ignition.
> Thanks for your input.
> Regards

John

Cartledge
> VH LOQ 260 hrs



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I have a HI/low volt indicator that reads the main bus and alarms
with a flashing yellow over 15V and steady yellow under 12V. If
everything is working normal the light is off. There are also two 5AH
pullable breakers in line feeding both CDI's . The alternator also
has a crow bar on it for excessive voltage.

I agree alternators and regulators can and do fail! Its happened to
me. But I have never seen an alternator/regulator and battery fail at
the same time.

Why didn't you switch to your second CDI or mag which was totally
independent, keep flying and not break your canard?

Thanks
Jim Patillo N46JP Q200.


--- In Q-LIST@..., "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris@b...>
wrote:

Re power supplies I have had two different voltage regulator

failures.The first on the Revmaster caused the battery to boil after
a 4 hr flight.The second on the Norton caused excessive voltage
supply to the electronic ignition which saturated the coils at cruise
rpm causing total EI failure after several hours. That is when I
broke the canard.

I would recommend fitting a safety circuit which will take the

excess alternator output when voltage exceed 15V . Also I have fitted
a dual volt/amp meter so I can see output on the panel.

I guess there are other fixes, but remember that a voltage

regulator can fail.

Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: rondefly
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 1:45 AM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: New Quickie Owners


Jim, B&C has 60 amp alternator's that mount either belt at the

bottom of the

engine or case mount, but said for lycoming, not sure if they are

adaptable

for continental or not. here is the web page.
http://www.bandc.biz/L60desc.html

Ron T

Ron Triano, Quickerone

http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page3.h
tml

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Patillo [mailto:patillo@a...]
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 7:30 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: New Quickie Owners



John,

I am using the standard 60AH Cessna alternator bolted in on the
bottom of the accessory case. I would like t change it to a B&C

but I

think they only make a 12 AH which might be a little light for

night

or light IFR.

Jim P. Q200 N46JP


--- In Q-LIST@..., "John Cartledge" <urecomps@a...>

wrote:

> Jim,
> Which alternator are you using and is it installed

where the

original
> generator like I have is situated?
> I ask because I reckon I need to get an alternator and

starter

> installed ( Armstrong start now!) before looking at electronic
ignition.
> Thanks for your input.
> Regards

John

Cartledge
> VH LOQ 260 hrs



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Service.

Peter,

It sounds like both of your VR failures were overvoltage (OV) failures.
This is specifically the situation that Bob Nuckolls' (Aeroelectric
Connection) "crowbar" OV protection circuit it designed to prevent. I
believe that B&C sells OV-protected VR's as well as an add-on OV
protection circuit to augment existing VR's. Good stuff.


David J. Gall

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:52:34 +1000, "Peter Harris" wrote:

Re power supplies I have had two different voltage regulator
failures.The first on the Revmaster caused the battery to boil after a
4 hr flight.The second on the Norton caused excessive voltage supply

to

the electronic ignition which saturated the coils at cruise rpm

causing

total EI failure after several hours. That is when I broke the canard.
I would recommend fitting a safety circuit which will take the excess
alternator output when voltage exceed 15V . Also I have fitted a dual
volt/amp meter so I can see output on the panel.
I guess there are other fixes, but remember that a voltage regulator
can fail.
Peter

Re power supplies I have had two different voltage regulator failures.The first on the Revmaster caused the battery to boil after a 4 hr flight.The second on the Norton caused excessive voltage supply to the electronic ignition which saturated the coils at cruise rpm causing total EI failure after several hours. That is when I broke the canard.
I would recommend fitting a safety circuit which will take the excess alternator output when voltage exceed 15V . Also I have fitted a dual volt/amp meter so I can see output on the panel.
I guess there are other fixes, but remember that a voltage regulator can fail.
Peter

Welcome in.

Jim,

Thanks for the lead. I had picked up on that a few weeks ago when
you posted on the list and I picked up several pair to have on hand.

Can anyone give me advice on storage of these tires? I want to make
sure I keep them in good shap until needed.

As for the Mods, I am planning on a visit to Livermore tomorrow.
Hooking up with Brad so if anyone else is around let me know. I'd
love to look again at your aircraft and snap a few pictures to give
me examples to work from. We are cleaning the aircraft up thios
weekend and building a stand to hold it in place while we work on
the tailwheel mod. Since I don't have lights in my hanger this is
going to be a weekend day only project. I'd take pieces home but the
garage is full of other airplane parts (RV7A) so I'm doing double
duty!

Looking forward to meeting many other Q owners in the future.

Thanks again.

Kevin Haslebacher
Q2 N103JR



--- In Q-LIST@..., "Jim Patillo" <patillo@a...> wrote:

Kevins, and Geoff,

Since you just purchased your planes you may need tires and tubes.
If you need the original 4.00 x 5 (diamond tread) Q2 tires, they

are

available from Bruce at Ability Access @ 510-886-0800.

Update. I am nearing completion of the installation of new dual
Lightspeed CDI's. The electrical system has been pencil whipped

and

final wiring will take place shortly.

I am using a Panasonic (recombinant gas batteries) 17AH for

starting

and a 7.2AH Panasonic for backup. The 17AH is more than adequate

to

crank my new Skytech starter (125 cranking amps required). Both
CDI's are directly fed and grounded from the batteries through 5AH
(+ side) pullable breakers, not through the buss. If the

alternator

fails and voltage begins to drop, a low volt annunciator

iluminates.

Once on battery power only, the 17AH battery runs one or both
ignitions sans alternator. I have a requirement of 2.2AH for a
single CDI and 2AH for the Facet fuel pump. Once the alternator
fails, I have approx. 3 hours cruise left on the main battery

before

it is discharged.

In the extremely rare event both the alternator and 17AH battery
fail at the same time I can switch to the 7.2AH aux battery and

run

either CDI's from it. This battery provides an additional 1.5

hours

of usage. The aux battery is continually charged through a Shotkey
diode (failure mode is open). I've thought through the single

point

failure mode and haven't come up with anything associated yet.

The benefit as I see it is much better range at altitude. I
currently have a 26.5 gal tank and this CDI mod alone could raise
the cruise range to the equivelant of 33.1 gal. Said another way

the

miles per gal go way up because the fuel consumption goes way down.

The second benefit is NO MORE MAGS!. I've eliminated the need to
pull the engine to set the timing. No maintenance.

3rd benefit. I will be able to idle much slower and smoother in

the

500 RPM range. This will allow for less power on landing and

shorter

roll.

4th benefit. Much smoother cruise speed at altitude. The

performance

at altitude increases significantly. (Read CAFE 400 comparison

test

results on their web site as relates to dual mags, one mag and one
CDI and dual CDI's. In otherwords, faster speeds for less gas!

If I pick up any unanticipated acceleration down the runway or

climb

that will be an additional benefit. Several people "claim

increased

performance in these areas as well". I'll let you know.

So far, I don't see a downside unless it is initial cost and hasle
to do it.

BTW, I have (2) 300 hour mags/harnesses for sale. They've just

been

pulled and are in very good condition. $475.00 both.

Regards,

Jim Patillo N46JP Q200 Needing to get back into the air. A month

is

too long to be with out your favorite toy.

Jim, B&C has 60 amp alternator's that mount either belt at the bottom of the
engine or case mount, but said for lycoming, not sure if they are adaptable
for continental or not. here is the web page.
http://www.bandc.biz/L60desc.html

Ron T

Ron Triano, Quickerone
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page3.html

John,

I am using the standard 60AH Cessna alternator bolted in on the
bottom of the accessory case. I would like t change it to a B&C but I
think they only make a 12 AH which might be a little light for night
or light IFR.

Jim P. Q200 N46JP


--- In Q-LIST@..., "John Cartledge" <urecomps@a...> wrote:

Jim,
Which alternator are you using and is it installed where the

original

generator like I have is situated?
I ask because I reckon I need to get an alternator and starter
installed ( Armstrong start now!) before looking at electronic

ignition.

Thanks for your input.
Regards John

Cartledge

VH LOQ 260 hrs

No, it was not dynoed. I assembled the engine myself and and just a garage
A&P. The 134 h.p. was based on Ly-Con's calculations and based on their
previous experience.

Jim,
Which alternator are you using and is it installed where the original
generator like I have is situated?
I ask because I reckon I need to get an alternator and starter
installed ( Armstrong start now!) before looking at electronic ignition.
Thanks for your input.
Regards John Cartledge
VH LOQ 260 hrs

Sam,

Was that dyno'd? If so, what RPM does it develop 134?

Bill Archer

To all,

Thanks for the input. My hanger mate has a GRT EIS in his EZ and
really likes it. I didn't know if the Q mag box caused problems
with the tach pick up installation - sounds like it doesn't. Lynn -
thanks for the tip on the oil press sensor - I'll call GRT on that.

Curt, I'll get in touch with you on a purchase.

Tom Moore built N321TM with a nice, full panel. My plan is to go
with a Dynon EFIS, GRT EIS, loose the Collins NAV/COM and VOR for a
slimline Comm, keep the Navaid and coupler, and maybe have a backup
airspeed. Rewiring everything will get me more familiar with the
plane and should drop a few pounds. (Got to keep up with Patillo
and Farnam and you know)

Thanks again,

Brad Olson
N321TM

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Curt Heggemeyer" <curth@n...> wrote:

Need to know what model you are looking at and we can go from

there.

Cheaper than retail that is for sure.

Curt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Russell Horan" <russell.horan@n...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 1:27 PM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Grand Rapids EIS

what is a good deal ?


Russell Horan
Kansas City
Q-200 builder
Russell.Horan@n...

Jim,
Thanks!

I am looking forward to seeing N46JP in the air soon! Even though I
won't be able to keep up...

I have not accepted James Postma's N145EX as yet, pending repair of a
few minor items -- one of which is the brake pads and rotors. Has
anyone found that Airheart's hard pads are better than the soft ones?
I understand that the soft pads are more "sticky", so give the highest
braking performance. But they will glaze over if overheated, and have
a tendency to fall apart with heavy use (per Mark at Airheart). The
hard ones are more robust but give lower brake effectiveness. On the
other hand, once I install toe brakes, perhaps lower effectiveness
would be safer... What is the experience that people have had?

Regarding the tires, thanks for the pointer to Bruce at Ability
Access. I saw his inventory of about 180 tires and tubes today (priced
in small quantities at $35 and $10 each). He mentioned that he plans
to increase the price after the end of the year.

Cheers, Geoff
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Need to know what model you are looking at and we can go from there.
Cheaper than retail that is for sure.

Curt