Thanks Bill, that is some interesting information to consider.

    The reason I select carb heat cold on late final is not damage to the engine but Rich Cut, and even then that is not a problem if you are landing, but on T&G's and on short fields can be a decider if you end up in the hedge ( or at Henstridge in the fence or girders), so I my norm is Carb Heat Cold on late final and a gentle cycle of the throttle to check its still there.

    Br

    RichT.

On 04/01/2021 08:13, Bill Allen wrote:

Hi Kieth,

You wrote: <<  I was hoping for some info regarding the use of Prist. >>r

Joel Ventura did quite a detailed article on Prist etc here: 

https://www.canardzone.com/forums/topic/35089-ice-in-the-fuel-system-part-2-the-remediation/?tab=comments#comment-65955

Bill

Note: Prist wont stop carb ice, which comes out of the atmosphere. Prist deals with water already in suspension within the fuel. 

On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 at 03:58, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:

Hi again,

All your comments, experiences and knowledge no doubt turned out to be a real education.  I don’t know about y’all but icing is normally not a discussion item.  I’m glad I took the chance to post the article.  Learned more than I thought I would.  And thank you all for “Your Opinions”

 

I must admit I was hoping for some info regarding the use of Prist.  I did actually use it in the Quickie for a time.  Reckon it did ok..that was several years ago.  My Q does not have carb heat nor does the carb have access to outside air, only hot air off the engine and is why the interest in the Teflon coating.  The carb on the newer Onan sets higher so to accommodate a new heat box I would need to make a new cowl bump....like that was gonna happen!  Not surprised no one had much to say about it.  

 

Like Jay I’m sure ice will form Teflon or not but I’ve never used a Teflon coated anything that anything would stick to it.  I once froze water in both a steel pan and a Teflon one.  Guess which one the ice slid out of.  The steel pan had ice remnants sticking to it after most was chipped out.  Yeah, pretty unscientific but....  Think about your plastic ice server bucket when guest come over, the ice sticks to everything even fingers.  At least modern technology has provided us with some options.

Thanks again,

Keith

Please note: message attached

From: "Mike Dwyer " <q200pilot@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 17:00:40 -0500

--

Hi again,

All your comments, experiences and knowledge no doubt turned out to be a real education.  I don’t know about y’all but icing is normally not a discussion item.  I’m glad I took the chance to post the article.  Learned more than I thought I would.  And thank you all for “Your Opinions”

 

I must admit I was hoping for some info regarding the use of Prist.  I did actually use it in the Quickie for a time.  Reckon it did ok..that was several years ago.  My Q does not have carb heat nor does the carb have access to outside air, only hot air off the engine and is why the interest in the Teflon coating.  The carb on the newer Onan sets higher so to accommodate a new heat box I would need to make a new cowl bump....like that was gonna happen!  Not surprised no one had much to say about it.  

 

Like Jay I’m sure ice will form Teflon or not but I’ve never used a Teflon coated anything that anything would stick to it.  I once froze water in both a steel pan and a Teflon one.  Guess which one the ice slid out of.  The steel pan had ice remnants sticking to it after most was chipped out.  Yeah, pretty unscientific but....  Think about your plastic ice server bucket when guest come over, the ice sticks to everything even fingers.  At least modern technology has provided us with some options.

Thanks again,

Keith

Please note: message attached

From: "Mike Dwyer " <q200pilot@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2021 17:00:40 -0500

I would say move to Oklahoma but we just had a snow storm move through.  Hope the banana crop is ok!

Bruce

On Jan 2, 2021, at 9:06 PM, Kevin Boddicker <trumanst@...> wrote:

Caian't See!!!

On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@...> wrote:

So, what's the problem?

-------- Original message --------

From: Kevin Boddicker <trumanst@...>

Date: 1/2/21 5:33 PM (GMT-05:00)

To: Q List <Q-List@groups.io>

Subject: [Q-List] Sunshine

THIS is 31°F and sunshine. 

Well at least that is what they forecast.

Good news is tomorrow is supposed to be as beautiful as today.

It’ll get better, someday.

If you got um, fly um!!!!

<IMG_2857.jpeg>

Kevin Boddicker
TriQ 200 N7868B   548 hrs
Luana, IA.

I would say move to Oklahoma but we just had a snow storm move through.  Hope the banana crop is ok!

Bruce

On Jan 2, 2021, at 9:06 PM, Kevin Boddicker <trumanst@...> wrote:

Caian't See!!!

On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@...> wrote:

So, what's the problem?

-------- Original message --------

From: Kevin Boddicker <trumanst@...>

Date: 1/2/21 5:33 PM (GMT-05:00)

To: Q List <Q-List@groups.io>

Subject: [Q-List] Sunshine

THIS is 31°F and sunshine. 

Well at least that is what they forecast.

Good news is tomorrow is supposed to be as beautiful as today.

It’ll get better, someday.

If you got um, fly um!!!!

<IMG_2857.jpeg>

Kevin Boddicker
TriQ 200 N7868B   548 hrs
Luana, IA.

Updraft, downdraft, - it doesn’t matter. What matters is the relative humidity and air temperature, combined with the carburettors venturi effect and the LHE of the fuel, as below;

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 22:23, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Good points, Bill. I wonder if the EZ’s are not more prone to icing due to the updraft cooling, which puts the coolest air in the bottom half of the cowl?  Your thoughts?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 12:15 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

“Carb” Ice on any engine using petroleum spirit with a Venturi metering device is a silent killer which doesn’t get the attention it deserves. 

Most folk don't ever test to see if their “carb heat” system meets the requirements of FAR 23.1093 (90f rise in intake aIr temp 65% at OAT of 30f)

If the engine quits because of carb ice, you’re going down, - and what’s more, the evidence of the cause of the failure will have melted away by the time any accident investigator gets there.

I’ve lost count of the numbers of people that have crashed due to carb ice/inadequate heat/unused carb heat, and believe that it’s the most dangerous thing on a Continental 0-200/0-240 which are otherwise a great engines.

I have a wrecked LongEz in my shop now (Continental 0-240) which was caused by a poor carb heat system, 

 See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236048

 

A friend wrecked his LongEz, and was badly injured, due to not fully using carb heat;

See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/213001

 

Another friend had icing induced engine failure , and found a big tree in the field fate selected for him, which killed him; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/aircraft-crashed-after-engine-cut-out-due-to-ice-inquest-hears-1.3407962

 

If you can't afford fuel injection, get carb heat muffs on headers both sides and make sure you get the heat rises called for in the FARs - it’s one of those regs that's “written in blood”.  And don't be shy about using heat all the way down to touchdown, and warming the engine every 500ft - those pipes don't have much thermal mass and quickly lose the ability to heat the air adequately.

 

Another thing I’ve noticed about fixed wing pilots is that many apply carb heat as if they were doing harm to the engine, and thus dont seem to like leaving it on.

While it’s true that max power is with cold air, you only need that on a climb out.

 So I’m puzzled when a pilot selects carb heat on the downwind, then turns it off on finals, just when going through the most vulnerable phase of the approach. 

If you believe that carb heat harms the engine in some way, keep in mind that all Robinson R22 helicopters (Lycoming 0-320/360) run with carb heat on all the time (unless you live in the desert of course...)

 

Fly safe, and land with heat :^)

 

Bill Allen

 

 

 

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 19:13, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin

On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 

 

On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

--

Updraft, downdraft, - it doesn’t matter. What matters is the relative humidity and air temperature, combined with the carburettors venturi effect and the LHE of the fuel, as below;

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 22:23, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

Good points, Bill. I wonder if the EZ’s are not more prone to icing due to the updraft cooling, which puts the coolest air in the bottom half of the cowl?  Your thoughts?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 12:15 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

“Carb” Ice on any engine using petroleum spirit with a Venturi metering device is a silent killer which doesn’t get the attention it deserves. 

Most folk don't ever test to see if their “carb heat” system meets the requirements of FAR 23.1093 (90f rise in intake aIr temp 65% at OAT of 30f)

If the engine quits because of carb ice, you’re going down, - and what’s more, the evidence of the cause of the failure will have melted away by the time any accident investigator gets there.

I’ve lost count of the numbers of people that have crashed due to carb ice/inadequate heat/unused carb heat, and believe that it’s the most dangerous thing on a Continental 0-200/0-240 which are otherwise a great engines.

I have a wrecked LongEz in my shop now (Continental 0-240) which was caused by a poor carb heat system, 

 See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236048

 

A friend wrecked his LongEz, and was badly injured, due to not fully using carb heat;

See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/213001

 

Another friend had icing induced engine failure , and found a big tree in the field fate selected for him, which killed him; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/aircraft-crashed-after-engine-cut-out-due-to-ice-inquest-hears-1.3407962

 

If you can't afford fuel injection, get carb heat muffs on headers both sides and make sure you get the heat rises called for in the FARs - it’s one of those regs that's “written in blood”.  And don't be shy about using heat all the way down to touchdown, and warming the engine every 500ft - those pipes don't have much thermal mass and quickly lose the ability to heat the air adequately.

 

Another thing I’ve noticed about fixed wing pilots is that many apply carb heat as if they were doing harm to the engine, and thus dont seem to like leaving it on.

While it’s true that max power is with cold air, you only need that on a climb out.

 So I’m puzzled when a pilot selects carb heat on the downwind, then turns it off on finals, just when going through the most vulnerable phase of the approach. 

If you believe that carb heat harms the engine in some way, keep in mind that all Robinson R22 helicopters (Lycoming 0-320/360) run with carb heat on all the time (unless you live in the desert of course...)

 

Fly safe, and land with heat :^)

 

Bill Allen

 

 

 

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 19:13, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin

On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 

 

On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

--

Good points, Bill. I wonder if the EZ’s are not more prone to icing due to the updraft cooling, which puts the coolest air in the bottom half of the cowl?  Your thoughts?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Allen
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 12:15 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

“Carb” Ice on any engine using petroleum spirit with a Venturi metering device is a silent killer which doesn’t get the attention it deserves. 

Most folk don't ever test to see if their “carb heat” system meets the requirements of FAR 23.1093 (90f rise in intake aIr temp 65% at OAT of 30f)

If the engine quits because of carb ice, you’re going down, - and what’s more, the evidence of the cause of the failure will have melted away by the time any accident investigator gets there.

I’ve lost count of the numbers of people that have crashed due to carb ice/inadequate heat/unused carb heat, and believe that it’s the most dangerous thing on a Continental 0-200/0-240 which are otherwise a great engines.

I have a wrecked LongEz in my shop now (Continental 0-240) which was caused by a poor carb heat system, 

 See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/236048

 

A friend wrecked his LongEz, and was badly injured, due to not fully using carb heat;

See https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/213001

 

Another friend had icing induced engine failure , and found a big tree in the field fate selected for him, which killed him; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/aircraft-crashed-after-engine-cut-out-due-to-ice-inquest-hears-1.3407962

 

If you can't afford fuel injection, get carb heat muffs on headers both sides and make sure you get the heat rises called for in the FARs - it’s one of those regs that's “written in blood”.  And don't be shy about using heat all the way down to touchdown, and warming the engine every 500ft - those pipes don't have much thermal mass and quickly lose the ability to heat the air adequately.

 

Another thing I’ve noticed about fixed wing pilots is that many apply carb heat as if they were doing harm to the engine, and thus dont seem to like leaving it on.

While it’s true that max power is with cold air, you only need that on a climb out.

 So I’m puzzled when a pilot selects carb heat on the downwind, then turns it off on finals, just when going through the most vulnerable phase of the approach. 

If you believe that carb heat harms the engine in some way, keep in mind that all Robinson R22 helicopters (Lycoming 0-320/360) run with carb heat on all the time (unless you live in the desert of course...)

 

Fly safe, and land with heat :^)

 

Bill Allen

 

 

 

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 19:13, Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin

On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 

 

On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>

--

Corbin 
N33QR

--

Agreed...love not worrying about carb ice!

Corbin

On Jan 3, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:



Martin,

 

Where did your Tri-Q end up?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Martin Skiby
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Your Opinion

 

I had it once very bad just as I was about to head over the mountains.  It was in the TriQ200.  70 degree day also.  Tried everything else first as I really did not expect the issue to be ice.  I turned back toward the valley and pulled the carb heat.  The engine sputtered for a bit then roared back to life.  

 

I had a cold air ram system into the carb for max performance.   The 0200 is famous for carb ice so I recommend NEVER flying without a working  carb heat!  Unless you have fuel injection like Corbin!!

 

Fly safe!

 

Martin

 

 

 

On Jan 2, 2021, at 7:54 AM, Keith Welsh <klw544@...> wrote:



Hello everyone,

I hope y'all had a great bringing in of the new year. 

 

I've attached an article I read about once every five years or so regarding carb icing. 

We all know about carb ice and the danger it poses.  I experienced it years ago in my then Aeronca Chief when, in the summer, the engine stopped producing power on final.  At least it would not throttle up when flaring to land and stopped on touchdown.  After setting a bit she started just fine...by hand propping of course. 

 

The highlighted area toward the end of the article gets my curiosity up and is what I would like your opinions on since many of you are much smarter than I.

The reason for asking is that somewhere in the 90's I had the throttle shaft, throttle plate and intake manifold teflon coated on my Quickie and this article is where it all started.

 

One hot humid day back then while looking down the carburetor with the engine running I was surprised at the amount of water that was forming on the throttle plate, the size of the droplets and the time it took for them to run off.  Onan carbs are on the top of the engine as most know.

I found a company in Indy that did industrial teflon coating, Keco Coatings, and they are still there and this is their website https://www.kecocoatings.com/coatings/teflon/

After the Teflon coating was done the water still formed but with a notable difference.  The droplets were miniature sized and it was like a contest to see who could run off the throttle plate first.  Very impressive.

 

I've never sought the opinion of others regarding this article but knowing the breath of knowledge among you Q guys I thought I'd reach out and see.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

Keith

N494K

 

 

 

<INDUCTION ICING STUDY.doc>

--

Corbin 
N33QR