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Re: Sparrow strainer stall
I see no Sparrow Strainer! We've been "punked"! Shoulda, Coulda Woulda!
B Please note: message attached From: "Jay Scheevel" <jay@...> To: <main@Q-List.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Sparrow strainer stall Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 18:13:28 -0600
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Re: Sparrow strainer stall
David J. Gall
Jay,
The UIUC airfoil database has two files: AMSOIL1.DAT is the canard airfoil, AMSOIL2.DAT is the wing airfoil. They’re similar, but the canard airfoil has more camber. I’ve done zero analysis on them….
David J. Gall
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 5:13 PM To: main@Q-List.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] Sparrow strainer stall
Here’s another one: From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Hi David,
This is what I got off the University of Illinois airfoil database. There are two airfoils there listed under Rutan Amsoil racer. They look to be very similar. I wonder if they used nearly the same airfoil on both wings, but with differing incidences. Here is the only photo I could find of it but it is difficult to tell from this angle (I thin this is the second one built, first was destroyed in the crash).
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of David J. Gall
Jay,
I think you’ve got the wrong airfoil there. The topic of discussion is canard airfoil, you’re showing the Amsoil Racer *wing* airfoil.
That said, what airfoil software are you using?
David J. Gall
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
I think it looked more like this.
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Did they use the Roncz canard on the Amzoil Racer? Didn't Burt design that bird? Bruce I think that the Roncz airfoil would probably have been the way to go, but unfortunately, as David said, Burt Rutan did not win that argument. I think, if that airfoil had been used, there would have been no need for the carbon fiber spar. Maybe the next time Sam replaces his canard, he can use that airfoil 😊
Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
I like this picture. I wasn't smart 'nough to understand the others you sent Jay.
I am noticing the aft end of the airfoils look different. It looks like there is negative camber on the aft end of the LS1. The Epler does away with that negative camber. Would that negative camber make the aft end want to pull up on the elevator? Plus would it make the airflow blurble up after the trailing edge of the elevator. Not sure about the top of the LS1 airflow going inboard with respect to the 2 airfoils! Any speculation Jay? Do we need to design a new airfoil for the canard on the Quickie to make it go faster or slow the stall speed? "Not a Rock Scientist" Bruce Crain
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Re: Sparrow strainer stall
Here’s another one:
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 6:09 PM To: main@Q-List.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] Sparrow strainer stall
Hi David,
This is what I got off the University of Illinois airfoil database. There are two airfoils there listed under Rutan Amsoil racer. They look to be very similar. I wonder if they used nearly the same airfoil on both wings, but with differing incidences. Here is the only photo I could find of it but it is difficult to tell from this angle (I thin this is the second one built, first was destroyed in the crash).
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of David J. Gall
Jay,
I think you’ve got the wrong airfoil there. The topic of discussion is canard airfoil, you’re showing the Amsoil Racer *wing* airfoil.
That said, what airfoil software are you using?
David J. Gall
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
I think it looked more like this.
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Did they use the Roncz canard on the Amzoil Racer? Didn't Burt design that bird? Bruce I think that the Roncz airfoil would probably have been the way to go, but unfortunately, as David said, Burt Rutan did not win that argument. I think, if that airfoil had been used, there would have been no need for the carbon fiber spar. Maybe the next time Sam replaces his canard, he can use that airfoil 😊
Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
I like this picture. I wasn't smart 'nough to understand the others you sent Jay.
I am noticing the aft end of the airfoils look different. It looks like there is negative camber on the aft end of the LS1. The Epler does away with that negative camber. Would that negative camber make the aft end want to pull up on the elevator? Plus would it make the airflow blurble up after the trailing edge of the elevator. Not sure about the top of the LS1 airflow going inboard with respect to the 2 airfoils! Any speculation Jay? Do we need to design a new airfoil for the canard on the Quickie to make it go faster or slow the stall speed? "Not a Rock Scientist" Bruce Crain
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Re: Sparrow strainer stall
Hi David,
This is what I got off the University of Illinois airfoil database. There are two airfoils there listed under Rutan Amsoil racer. They look to be very similar. I wonder if they used nearly the same airfoil on both wings, but with differing incidences. Here is the only photo I could find of it but it is difficult to tell from this angle (I thin this is the second one built, first was destroyed in the crash).
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of David J. Gall
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 5:17 PM To: main@Q-List.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] Sparrow strainer stall
Jay,
I think you’ve got the wrong airfoil there. The topic of discussion is canard airfoil, you’re showing the Amsoil Racer *wing* airfoil.
That said, what airfoil software are you using?
David J. Gall
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
I think it looked more like this.
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Did they use the Roncz canard on the Amzoil Racer? Didn't Burt design that bird? Bruce I think that the Roncz airfoil would probably have been the way to go, but unfortunately, as David said, Burt Rutan did not win that argument. I think, if that airfoil had been used, there would have been no need for the carbon fiber spar. Maybe the next time Sam replaces his canard, he can use that airfoil 😊
Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
I like this picture. I wasn't smart 'nough to understand the others you sent Jay.
I am noticing the aft end of the airfoils look different. It looks like there is negative camber on the aft end of the LS1. The Epler does away with that negative camber. Would that negative camber make the aft end want to pull up on the elevator? Plus would it make the airflow blurble up after the trailing edge of the elevator. Not sure about the top of the LS1 airflow going inboard with respect to the 2 airfoils! Any speculation Jay? Do we need to design a new airfoil for the canard on the Quickie to make it go faster or slow the stall speed? "Not a Rock Scientist" Bruce Crain
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Re: Sparrow strainer stall
David J. Gall
Jay,
I think you’ve got the wrong airfoil there. The topic of discussion is canard airfoil, you’re showing the Amsoil Racer *wing* airfoil.
That said, what airfoil software are you using?
David J. Gall
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jay Scheevel
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 8:08 PM To: main@Q-List.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] Sparrow strainer stall
I think it looked more like this.
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Did they use the Roncz canard on the Amzoil Racer? Didn't Burt design that bird? Bruce I think that the Roncz airfoil would probably have been the way to go, but unfortunately, as David said, Burt Rutan did not win that argument. I think, if that airfoil had been used, there would have been no need for the carbon fiber spar. Maybe the next time Sam replaces his canard, he can use that airfoil 😊
Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
I like this picture. I wasn't smart 'nough to understand the others you sent Jay.
I am noticing the aft end of the airfoils look different. It looks like there is negative camber on the aft end of the LS1. The Epler does away with that negative camber. Would that negative camber make the aft end want to pull up on the elevator? Plus would it make the airflow blurble up after the trailing edge of the elevator. Not sure about the top of the LS1 airflow going inboard with respect to the 2 airfoils! Any speculation Jay? Do we need to design a new airfoil for the canard on the Quickie to make it go faster or slow the stall speed? "Not a Rock Scientist" Bruce Crain
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Re: EXT :[Q-List] Oil leak - Cylinder Base
Kidd, Robert L [US] (IS)
Jim, My C150 was leaving a trail when I’d land and taxi, I thought the seal on the vacuum pump shaft was leaking, so I replaced it several times before I dug a bit deeper and tightened the bottom center case bolts. That significantly reduced the oil trail I was leaving, and the oil consumption on my O-200. Just saying, you may want to look at that while you are working on it. Robert Kidd Logan, Utah
From: main@Q-List.groups.io [mailto:main@Q-List.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
Hey Bruce, Please let me know what you found and how you repaired it.
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Re: Sparrow strainer stall
To date, has there been a Q with the Roncz airfoil built and flown?
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Re: Sparrow strainer stall
Since it was built as a pylon racer, the mission was quite different than fast cruise. Not sure, but I think Roncz designed the Amsoil airfoils also. Take a look at the area behind the 50% chord, you will see the camber there, but you are right, it is close to symmetrical.
Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Looks almost symmetrical! Would perhaps need a bit of up incidence for cruise. But then you're not looking for just cruise when racing! Bruce
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Re: Sparrow strainer stall
Looks almost symmetrical! Would perhaps need a bit of up incidence for cruise. But then you're not looking for just cruise when racing!
Bruce Please note: message attached From: "Jay Scheevel" <jay@...> To: <main@Q-List.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Sparrow strainer stall Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 21:07:55 -0600
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Re: Oil leak - Cylinder Base
Nothing on the threads. The thread locker goes in the silk thread around the through bolt. My mid engine through bolt has been dry for years. The left two through bolts have not. Today I hope to finish plumbing everything together for runup then cowl and fly. Hoping for the best!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Bruce
On Mar 22, 2020, at 10:40 PM, Phil Lankford via Groups.Io <britmcman@...> wrote:
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Re: Oil leak - Cylinder Base
I am not sure you wouldn’t (double negative?) get a similar positive seal on those threads if you were to just dress them with Hylomar without the silk thread trick. But I’m listening.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Phil Lankford
On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:45 PM, Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
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Re: Sparrow strainer stall
I think it looked more like this.
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
Did they use the Roncz canard on the Amzoil Racer? Didn't Burt design that bird? Bruce I think that the Roncz airfoil would probably have been the way to go, but unfortunately, as David said, Burt Rutan did not win that argument. I think, if that airfoil had been used, there would have been no need for the carbon fiber spar. Maybe the next time Sam replaces his canard, he can use that airfoil 😊
Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
I like this picture. I wasn't smart 'nough to understand the others you sent Jay.
I am noticing the aft end of the airfoils look different. It looks like there is negative camber on the aft end of the LS1. The Epler does away with that negative camber. Would that negative camber make the aft end want to pull up on the elevator? Plus would it make the airflow blurble up after the trailing edge of the elevator. Not sure about the top of the LS1 airflow going inboard with respect to the 2 airfoils! Any speculation Jay? Do we need to design a new airfoil for the canard on the Quickie to make it go faster or slow the stall speed? "Not a Rock Scientist" Bruce Crain
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Re: Sparrow strainer stall
Did they use the Roncz canard on the Amzoil Racer? Didn't Burt design that bird?
Bruce
---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Jay Scheevel" <jay@...> To: <main@Q-List.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Sparrow strainer stall Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 20:05:32 -0600 I think that the Roncz airfoil would probably have been the way to go, but unfortunately, as David said, Burt Rutan did not win that argument. I think, if that airfoil had been used, there would have been no need for the carbon fiber spar. Maybe the next time Sam replaces his canard, he can use that airfoil 😊
Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
I like this picture. I wasn't smart 'nough to understand the others you sent Jay.
I am noticing the aft end of the airfoils look different. It looks like there is negative camber on the aft end of the LS1. The Epler does away with that negative camber. Would that negative camber make the aft end want to pull up on the elevator? Plus would it make the airflow blurble up after the trailing edge of the elevator. Not sure about the top of the LS1 airflow going inboard with respect to the 2 airfoils! Any speculation Jay? Do we need to design a new airfoil for the canard on the Quickie to make it go faster or slow the stall speed? "Not a Rock Scientist" Bruce Crain
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Re: Sparrow strainer stall
I think that the Roncz airfoil would probably have been the way to go, but unfortunately, as David said, Burt Rutan did not win that argument. I think, if that airfoil had been used, there would have been no need for the carbon fiber spar. Maybe the next time Sam replaces his canard, he can use that airfoil 😊
Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Crain
I like this picture. I wasn't smart 'nough to understand the others you sent Jay.
I am noticing the aft end of the airfoils look different. It looks like there is negative camber on the aft end of the LS1. The Epler does away with that negative camber. Would that negative camber make the aft end want to pull up on the elevator? Plus would it make the airflow blurble up after the trailing edge of the elevator. Not sure about the top of the LS1 airflow going inboard with respect to the 2 airfoils! Any speculation Jay? Do we need to design a new airfoil for the canard on the Quickie to make it go faster or slow the stall speed? "Not a Rock Scientist" Bruce Crain
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Re: Oil leak - Cylinder Base
I am sorry I did not explain myself good enough! None of the thread or locker is to go under the cylinder base bolts or cylinder skirt for the through bolt Jim is talking about! It is to go inside the hole that the through bolt goes through . Perhaps an inch or so inside the hole in the case halves!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Bruce
On Mar 21, 2020, at 11:57 AM, Jim Patillo <logistics_engineering@...> wrote:
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Re: Oil leak - Cylinder Base
Thanks for the input Bruce and Sam. I will ask on continental engine site.
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Re: Oil leak - Cylinder Base
Jim, also try posting on the https://smallcontinentalengines.groups.io/g/main Silk thread under the through bolts? I dunno. That sounds like the kind of thing that could cause an issue with maintaining proper torque and lead to the loss of a cylinder. Maybe Harry Fenton will see it and comment.
On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 11:57 AM Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:
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Re: Sparrow strainer stall
I like this picture. I wasn't smart 'nough to understand the others you sent Jay.
I am noticing the aft end of the airfoils look different. It looks like there is negative camber on the aft end of the LS1. The Epler does away with that negative camber. Would that negative camber make the aft end want to pull up on the elevator? Plus would it make the airflow blurble up after the trailing edge of the elevator.
Not sure about the top of the LS1 airflow going inboard with respect to the 2 airfoils!
Any speculation Jay?
Do we need to design a new airfoil for the canard on the Quickie to make it go faster or slow the stall speed?
"Not a Rock Scientist"
Bruce Crain
Please note: message attached From: "Jay Scheevel" <jay@...> To: <main@Q-List.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Sparrow strainer stall Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:54:41 -0600
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Re: Oil leak - Cylinder Base
YepI That would be correct on the actual through bolt. I did the silk thread with thread locker or RTV in the thread.
I did both left and right ends to keep from leaking on either side. You will need to pull both 2 and 3 cylinders away from the case halves.
When you start wrapping the thread just keep wrapping it until it starts to fit snugly. Then do the other end and make them both fit snugly. I think I wrapped them at the outer ends but not outside the side of the case. You don't want to let the thread and locker hold the cylinder away from the case half! Add the thread locker to the thread and push the through bolt into place. It should be snug enough to keep it in place but not enough to keep it from going into place.
When you torque the bolt try to keep the ends fairly symmetrical.
My leak has been on the left front side of the case. There are 2 bolts that thread into the case half on the other side. I thought I might need to check out the cylinder base flat O ring but D and B Engines said the leak never happens with that base o ring. He said the 2 bolts are the culprit. I affirm that as I have seen oil coming out of the threads.
I finished remounting the cylinder and torquing the base nuts and installing the new push tube oil return tubes. I will most likely finish plumbing the rest this week while Honey Lamb is working. I get lonesome at the hanger so I came home to "entertain her"!
 I will shout out loud if I can get this 0200 dry!
Bruce Crain
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Jim Patillo" <Logistics_engineering@...> To: main@Q-List.groups.io Subject: [Q-List] Oil leak - Cylinder Base Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:57:07 -0700 Hey Bruce, Please let me know what you found and how you repaired it.
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Oil leak - Cylinder Base
Hey Bruce, Please let me know what you found and how you repaired it.
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