Q-1 - How much Hp is needed


Hot Wings
 

I'm planning on picking up my new project next weekend and would kind
of like to have it flying about the same time that my brother gets his Tri-Q
in the air. I have not yet decided on the "proper" power plant but I have
run across a 22 Hp V2 that, weighs a bit less than the Onan (minus radiator;
and fluid), has a nice flat torque curve that peaks in the right spot for
direct drive, is affordable, - but is only 22 Hp.
I will normally fly at high density altitudes and at high gross and
know that even the high horsepower versions of the Onan were not really up to
the job. What I would like is some feed back (or even speculation with logic
attached) from some current or former Q-1 pilots on just how much Hp is
"enough".
Will also entertain alternate powerplant recommendations - excluding 2
stroke. There is nothing wrong with a 2 stroke in a Q-1, but it's just not
for me.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Think outside the box......Fly in the envelope

Leon McAtee
Q-2/turbo VW Rabbit GTI/G-60
Q-1//3 Cyl Diahatsu Diesel?????????????????????????????


Hot Wings
 

In a message dated 12/31/01 6:45:29 PM Mountain Standard Time,
jtenhave@... writes:


. That said, the life of an anorexic midget is not for everyone....
This is something I will NEVER know - but I should try a bit harder on
the anorexic part<G>
I didn't know that Leon (strange name) Davis had been working with
water-cooled motors. He does have a bunch of experience with the smaller
power plants so I guess I'll have to scare up a copy of Contact.
Thanks for the tip.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Think outside the box......Fly in the envelope

Leon McAtee
Q-2/turbo VW Rabbit GTI/G-60
Q-1//3 Cyl Diahatsu Diesel????????????????????


JMasal@...
 

In a message dated 12/31/01 7:58:02 PM Central Standard Time, BD5ER@...
writes:



I didn't know that Leon (strange name) Davis
Actually I think it's Leeon. They do some funky things out in west Texas.


JMasal@...
 

Having flown behind a so-called Onan 22hp, a Global and a Rotax, I think that
35 horses would be just about right for a Quickie. Seems like the 503's are
excessive and need to be restrained by prop pitch.

j.


jtenhave@mets.mq.edu.au <jtenhave@...>
 

Leon,

has your project flown at all? If not, you might want to consider reducing
the variables somewhat by either purchasing an Onan firewall forward
package( they are not exactly a sought after commodity) and using that to
debug the airframe, learn to fly it and then or parallel to that effort
develop the new power plant.

If the airframe is a proven performer, have a look at one of the back
issues of "Contact" which describes Leon Davis's conversion of the engine
to which you refer - it will save you a great deal of grief. ( he is a
pretty smart engineer and did nice work on that project)

A final comment on low HP powerplants. a 2 hp degradation in performance
is not much normally, but if the engine is only good for 20 hp it is a 10%
reduction so maintaining optimum tune is extremely important. Higher HP
engines are a bit more tolerant of being slightly off song. Performance
is closely related to power to wieght ratios. If you want the best from the
power available, get the weight down and keep it down. Too often the
decision is made to put a more powerful engine in to compensate and the
attention to wieght saving is relaxed. The net result being that much of
the anticipated gain is lost.

The number of times I have been outclimbed by an otherwise identical Q1
flown by a pilot 20 kg lighter than I ( the fact that he was a much better
pilot had absolutely nothing to do with it ;-)) are too numerous to
mention. That said, the life of an anorexic midget is not for everyone....

John

-----Original Message-----
From: BD5ER@... [SMTP:BD5ER@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 12:19 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Q-1 - How much Hp is needed

I'm planning on picking up my new project next weekend and would
kind
of like to have it flying about the same time that my brother gets his
Tri-Q
in the air. I have not yet decided on the "proper" power plant but I have
run across a 22 Hp V2 that, weighs a bit less than the Onan (minus
radiator;
and fluid), has a nice flat torque curve that peaks in the right spot for
direct drive, is affordable, - but is only 22 Hp.
I will normally fly at high density altitudes and at high gross and
know that even the high horsepower versions of the Onan were not really up
to
the job. What I would like is some feed back (or even speculation with
logic
attached) from some current or former Q-1 pilots on just how much Hp is
"enough".
Will also entertain alternate powerplant recommendations - excluding
2
stroke. There is nothing wrong with a 2 stroke in a Q-1, but it's just not
for me.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Think outside the box......Fly in the envelope

Leon McAtee
Q-2/turbo VW Rabbit GTI/G-60
Q-1//3 Cyl Diahatsu Diesel?????????????????????????????






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Dave King <KingDWS@...>
 

At 08:18 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
I'm planning on picking up my new project next weekend and would kind
of like to have it flying about the same time that my brother gets his Tri-Q
in the air. I have not yet decided on the "proper" power plant but I have
run across a 22 Hp V2 that, weighs a bit less than the Onan (minus radiator;
and fluid), has a nice flat torque curve that peaks in the right spot for
direct drive, is affordable, - but is only 22 Hp.
You know I'm really rather picky on what engine I'll let you put on MY kit ;-]
Depending on what engine you have to start with you can get an easy 35
hp out of them. The Kohler has a 100 extra cc's displacement but the Brigg's
and Honda's have a lot of after market parts. All of them are involved in racing
and will put out 70+ hp in race trim. Just your regular everyday lawn mower engine
burning nitro.....

I think there are two people onlist getting ready to fly behind the Kohlers, The Brigg's
has flown in several guises and there is a German conversion rated at 38hp. The Honda
was out as the "David engine" by Sky West. I think those turned out to be more hype
than horsepower 45-60hp from a 630cc. engine.

Dave


Dave King <KingDWS@...>
 

At 11:37 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
Having flown behind a so-called Onan 22hp, a Global and a Rotax, I think that
35 horses would be just about right for a Quickie. Seems like the 503's are
excessive and need to be restrained by prop pitch.

j.
Since Jim says you can put something other than a Onan in my Q1 Kit,
I'll take a step to the middle and say "FOLLOW THE PLANS"

Happy New Years EveryOne

Dave K


JMasal@...
 

In a message dated 12/31/01 11:11:29 PM Central Standard Time,
KingDWS@... writes:


Since Jim says you can put something other than a Onan in my Q1 Kit,
I'll take a step to the middle and say "FOLLOW THE PLANS"

Happy New Years EveryOne

Dave K
I dint say you should DO it, wise guy, I only said I've flown behind them.
I'm just makin' a theoretical estimation you unnerstand.


RMARIETTA@...
 

Raven of Boulder CO is working on the 3 cyclinder, 4 cycle, water cooled,
laid hortz. with a redrive that is designed to use the same egine mount as
the Rotax 503. HP-45-50, 90 lbs.
They have been working with this engine for some time, just recently using it
in the hort. position.


Hot Wings
 

In a message dated 1/1/02 4:44:17 PM Mountain Standard Time,
RMARIETTA@... writes:


Raven of Boulder CO is working on the 3 cyclinder, 4 cycle, water cooled,
laid hortz. with a redrive that is designed to use the same egine mount as
the Rotax 503. HP-45-50, 90 lbs.
They have been working with this engine for some time, just recently using
it
in the hort. position.
I've got 3 of these motors in the shop (#128 as pulled from the
vehicle) and I had originally planed to do the same thing long before I saw
Ravens' version. Kind of a Q-1 version of the Rabbit I'm going to put in my
Q-2. If they can get this done at #90 without lopping of the third cylinder
I think 9.98 m/sec needs to be revised a bit.
There will be a flood of BD-5 builders waiting outside their doors if
they could pull this off.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Think outside the box......Fly in the envelope

Leon McAtee
Q-2/turbo VW Rabbit GTI/G-60
Q-1//3 Cyl Diahatsu Diesel???


jtenhave@mets.mq.edu.au <jtenhave@...>
 

Jim,

thinking further about your posting, can you recall or derive the MAUW for
each configuration? The reason why I ask is to see if it is possible to
define an optimum power to weight ratio for the Q1. Your observation that
35 hp is optimum is half of a very useful figure.

Regards

John

-----Original Message-----
From: JMasal@... [SMTP:JMasal@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:23 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q-1 - How much Hp is needed

In a message dated 12/31/01 11:11:29 PM Central Standard Time,
KingDWS@... writes:


Since Jim says you can put something other than a Onan in my Q1 Kit,
I'll take a step to the middle and say "FOLLOW THE PLANS"

Happy New Years EveryOne

Dave K
I dint say you should DO it, wise guy, I only said I've flown behind them.
I'm just makin' a theoretical estimation you unnerstand.






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JMasal@...
 

In a message dated 1/2/02 10:40:37 PM Central Standard Time,
jtenhave@... writes:


can you recall or derive the MAUW
I'm not an engineer so I don't get anal retentive about these things. No I
can't do this. This is merely a gut feel from a pilot. Wheter the absolute
figure is 37 1/2 hp or 29 and 3/8 is of no interest to me. I'm going with 50.
j.


JMasal@...
 

Jim-john mod. I like it!

Except on a very few subjects endless palaver is of very little interest to
me. But that's just my predilection. It is easy to see from the length of
some threads that it is of great interest and stimulation to my reciprocals.
I am just as happy as a pig in mud to see that there is something for
everyone on this site. Nevertheless I am very resistant to the pull of this
vortex, albeit very interested in the results at the end of a boardful of
equations. Call me a pragmatist (maybe a weighty one, although I have still
to gain 10 pounds to be up to my proper weight for my girth).

Over 10+ years of publishing Quicktalk/QTALK I have observed it is well nigh
impossible to scientifically quantify much about these custom built aircraft.
The subject is rife with variables known, guessed at or unknown and,
therefore, rife with errors of analysis. My opinion is that the best that can
be attained are general rules of thumb. But thats just my opinion and as one
wise sage put it: opinions are like assholes... everyone has one. And that
brings us full circle to the start of this email.

You do good work, John (and you go about it with humor). I just don't have it
in my genetic makeup to appreciate you properly. That's neither good nor bad,
I think.

j.


Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
 

Jim, I think he was asking about your weight... I'd estimate 172lb the last time I saw you... Maybe you want to tell him closer to the truth! LOL
Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: JMasal@...
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q-1 - How much Hp is needed


In a message dated 1/2/02 10:40:37 PM Central Standard Time,
jtenhave@... writes:


> can you recall or derive the MAUW

I'm not an engineer so I don't get anal retentive about these things. No I
can't do this. This is merely a gut feel from a pilot. Wheter the absolute
figure is 37 1/2 hp or 29 and 3/8 is of no interest to me. I'm going with 50.
j.





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jtenhave@mets.mq.edu.au <jtenhave@...>
 

Jim,

you make a good point (- digestive tract aside) in that ultimately it is
performance which counts and that which we all seek. The difference in
performance however is not just a case of power, but what that power is
being applied to. If you are one of these racing sardine body shapes, or
more "inertial" can make a big difference. An apparently asthmatic Q
whilst being flown by a "well rounded personality" could well be a missile
in the hands of the "growth hormonally challenged". I would suggest
that if the power to weight was to be found, it would prove to be a great
leveller. Of course, this does assume that one is prepared to mount the
bathroom scales, has sufficiently good eyesight to read the dial and a
girth which permits a direct line of sight to the dial. As for Mike
Dwyer's irreverence?...he would have to get points for bravery, at least.

As for Retentivity? You are right to avoid this at all costs, this will
simply compound the problem.... indeed, a circular speed brake with a
central cutout could be usefully employed to perform multiple roles... In
keeping with the double barrelled, self named, modification traditions
could I suggest the Jim-John ?

John

-----Original Message-----
From: JMasal@... [SMTP:JMasal@...]
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 11:39 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q-1 - How much Hp is needed

In a message dated 1/2/02 10:40:37 PM Central Standard Time,
jtenhave@... writes:


can you recall or derive the MAUW
I'm not an engineer so I don't get anal retentive about these things. No I
can't do this. This is merely a gut feel from a pilot. Wheter the absolute
figure is 37 1/2 hp or 29 and 3/8 is of no interest to me. I'm going with
50.
j.






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Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

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pwright5@...
 

Like Jim .... I've flown behind 4 different engines. Being somewhat
non-anorexic (sp?), 50+ HP is good for me.
I STILL want to go with the HKS700 if and when John TH finishes the R&D for
me (lazy or what)? :-)

If you're under 120lbs go ONAN (22HP)
Under 175 lbs go Mosler or Global (35 HP)
Anything over 200 (thats me!!!) needs 2-stroke to get enough power to
wieght ratio .... so Rotax 503 (50+ HP)

In the cruise 30 hp is fine ..... but nice to get up to this position
quickly!

Happy New Year everyone,

Paul




JMasal@... on 04/01/2002 05:34:27

Please respond to Q-LIST@...

To: Q-LIST@...
cc:
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q-1 - How much Hp is needed


Jim-john mod. I like it!

Except on a very few subjects endless palaver is of very little interest to
me. But that's just my predilection. It is easy to see from the length of
some threads that it is of great interest and stimulation to my
reciprocals.
I am just as happy as a pig in mud to see that there is something for
everyone on this site. Nevertheless I am very resistant to the pull of this
vortex, albeit very interested in the results at the end of a boardful of
equations. Call me a pragmatist (maybe a weighty one, although I have still
to gain 10 pounds to be up to my proper weight for my girth).

Over 10+ years of publishing Quicktalk/QTALK I have observed it is well
nigh
impossible to scientifically quantify much about these custom built
aircraft.
The subject is rife with variables known, guessed at or unknown and,
therefore, rife with errors of analysis. My opinion is that the best that
can
be attained are general rules of thumb. But thats just my opinion and as
one
wise sage put it: opinions are like assholes... everyone has one. And that
brings us full circle to the start of this email.

You do good work, John (and you go about it with humor). I just don't have
it
in my genetic makeup to appreciate you properly. That's neither good nor
bad,
I think.

j.






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Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

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http://www.quickiebuilders.org



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Pat Panzera <panzera@...>
 

JMasal@... wrote:

Jim-john mod. I like it!
<snip>

I had great difficulty understanding Jim's message. There were far
too many big words in it. So I found a website with an on-line
"english to knuckle dragger" translator, fed the text in, and it
translated it great!

Here's the results:

"Except on a very few subjects endless palaver is of very little
interest to me."

Translation: Except when it serves me, I get bored with you guys who
like discuss things to completion.

"But that's just my predilection."

Translation: But that's just how I am.

"It is easy to see from the length of some threads that it is of great
interest and stimulation to my reciprocals. "

Translation: But I realize that those of you who are not as smart as
I am, take pleasure in this exercise.

"I am just as happy as a pig in mud to see that there is something for
everyone on this site. "

Translation: And it truly warms my heart the way you mindless individuals
can find happiness any way you can, and can find entertainment in a piece
of pocket lint.

"Nevertheless I am very resistant to the pull of this vortex, albeit very
interested in the results at the end of a boardful of equations. "

Translation: However, I'm still above participating, even though I'm
interested in the outcome.

"Call me a pragmatist (maybe a weighty one, although I have still
to gain 10 pounds to be up to my proper weight for my girth)."

Translation: Call me realistic (as opposed to idealistic).
OR
Translation: Call me a transvestite (because I have to wear a mumu now
that I've outgrown my walking shorts). ;)

"Over 10+ years of publishing Quicktalk/QTALK I have observed it is well nigh
impossible to scientifically quantify much about these custom built aircraft."

Translation: Although I know more than anyone about Q's in general, there's
still some stuff I don't understand. Even though you guys might think you
can come to understand things better through a more accurate understanding
of physics and engineering, you are still idiots and nothing good can come
of your efforts.

"The subject is rife with variables known, guessed at or unknown and,
therefore, rife with errors of analysis."

Translation: There's no way an educated guess, the application of theory,
or trial and error will do anyone any good. There are some straight up
errors in the way you are going about it, but I won't bother to politely
point them out, as I refuse to (as stated before) get sucked into the vortex
of your idiocy.

"My opinion is that the best that can be attained are general rules of thumb."

Translation: My opinion is that the best that can be attained are general
rules of thumb.

(Translator's comment: Is that such a bad thing?)

"But thats just my opinion and as one wise sage put it: opinions are like
assholes... everyone has one. And that brings us full circle to the start
of this email."

Translation: Profanity is my preferred means of communication.

"You do good work, John (and you go about it with humor). I just don't have
it in my genetic makeup to appreciate you properly. That's neither good nor
bad, I think."

Translation: You do good work John, and I can't be man enough to admit it,
because I'm a victim of genetics. I'm predisposed to being crass, and need
to hide behind the fallacy that personality is genetic. Sorta like the guy
in prison who raped and murdered because his daddy didn't love him.
He's a victim too you know, just like me.


.


RICHARD EDDINGER <mrsrb1@...>
 

Just great

----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Panzera
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 9:14 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q-1 - How much Hp is needed



JMasal@... wrote:

Jim-john mod. I like it!
<snip>

I had great difficulty understanding Jim's message. There were far
too many big words in it. So I found a website with an on-line
"english to knuckle dragger" translator, fed the text in, and it
translated it great!

Here's the results:

"Except on a very few subjects endless palaver is of very little
interest to me."

Translation: Except when it serves me, I get bored with you guys who
like discuss things to completion.

"But that's just my predilection."

Translation: But that's just how I am.

"It is easy to see from the length of some threads that it is of great
interest and stimulation to my reciprocals. "

Translation: But I realize that those of you who are not as smart as
I am, take pleasure in this exercise.

"I am just as happy as a pig in mud to see that there is something for
everyone on this site. "

Translation: And it truly warms my heart the way you mindless individuals
can find happiness any way you can, and can find entertainment in a piece
of pocket lint.

"Nevertheless I am very resistant to the pull of this vortex, albeit very
interested in the results at the end of a boardful of equations. "

Translation: However, I'm still above participating, even though I'm
interested in the outcome.

"Call me a pragmatist (maybe a weighty one, although I have still
to gain 10 pounds to be up to my proper weight for my girth)."

Translation: Call me realistic (as opposed to idealistic).
OR
Translation: Call me a transvestite (because I have to wear a mumu now
that I've outgrown my walking shorts). ;)

"Over 10+ years of publishing Quicktalk/QTALK I have observed it is well nigh
impossible to scientifically quantify much about these custom built aircraft."

Translation: Although I know more than anyone about Q's in general, there's
still some stuff I don't understand. Even though you guys might think you
can come to understand things better through a more accurate understanding
of physics and engineering, you are still idiots and nothing good can come
of your efforts.

"The subject is rife with variables known, guessed at or unknown and,
therefore, rife with errors of analysis."

Translation: There's no way an educated guess, the application of theory,
or trial and error will do anyone any good. There are some straight up
errors in the way you are going about it, but I won't bother to politely
point them out, as I refuse to (as stated before) get sucked into the vortex
of your idiocy.

"My opinion is that the best that can be attained are general rules of thumb."

Translation: My opinion is that the best that can be attained are general
rules of thumb.

(Translator's comment: Is that such a bad thing?)

"But thats just my opinion and as one wise sage put it: opinions are like
assholes... everyone has one. And that brings us full circle to the start
of this email."

Translation: Profanity is my preferred means of communication.

"You do good work, John (and you go about it with humor). I just don't have
it in my genetic makeup to appreciate you properly. That's neither good nor
bad, I think."

Translation: You do good work John, and I can't be man enough to admit it,
because I'm a victim of genetics. I'm predisposed to being crass, and need
to hide behind the fallacy that personality is genetic. Sorta like the guy
in prison who raped and murdered because his daddy didn't love him.
He's a victim too you know, just like me.


.


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pwright5@...
 

So you invited him to a theological place of eternal punishiment in such a
way that he's looking forward to the trip!?




RICHARD EDDINGER <mrsrb1@...> on 04/01/2002 17:29:11

Please respond to Q-LIST@...

To: Q-list <Q-LIST@...>
cc:
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q-1 - How much Hp is needed


Just great

----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Panzera
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 9:14 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Q-1 - How much Hp is needed



JMasal@... wrote:

Jim-john mod. I like it!
<snip>

I had great difficulty understanding Jim's message. There were far
too many big words in it. So I found a website with an on-line
"english to knuckle dragger" translator, fed the text in, and it
translated it great!

Here's the results:

"Except on a very few subjects endless palaver is of very little
interest to me."

Translation: Except when it serves me, I get bored with you guys who
like discuss things to completion.

"But that's just my predilection."

Translation: But that's just how I am.

"It is easy to see from the length of some threads that it is of great
interest and stimulation to my reciprocals. "

Translation: But I realize that those of you who are not as smart as
I am, take pleasure in this exercise.

"I am just as happy as a pig in mud to see that there is something for
everyone on this site. "

Translation: And it truly warms my heart the way you mindless individuals
can find happiness any way you can, and can find entertainment in a piece
of pocket lint.

"Nevertheless I am very resistant to the pull of this vortex, albeit very
interested in the results at the end of a boardful of equations. "

Translation: However, I'm still above participating, even though I'm
interested in the outcome.

"Call me a pragmatist (maybe a weighty one, although I have still
to gain 10 pounds to be up to my proper weight for my girth)."

Translation: Call me realistic (as opposed to idealistic).
OR
Translation: Call me a transvestite (because I have to wear a mumu now
that I've outgrown my walking shorts). ;)

"Over 10+ years of publishing Quicktalk/QTALK I have observed it is well
nigh
impossible to scientifically quantify much about these custom built
aircraft."

Translation: Although I know more than anyone about Q's in general,
there's
still some stuff I don't understand. Even though you guys might think you
can come to understand things better through a more accurate understanding
of physics and engineering, you are still idiots and nothing good can
come
of your efforts.

"The subject is rife with variables known, guessed at or unknown and,
therefore, rife with errors of analysis."

Translation: There's no way an educated guess, the application of theory,
or trial and error will do anyone any good. There are some straight up
errors in the way you are going about it, but I won't bother to politely
point them out, as I refuse to (as stated before) get sucked into the
vortex
of your idiocy.

"My opinion is that the best that can be attained are general rules of
thumb."

Translation: My opinion is that the best that can be attained are general
rules of thumb.

(Translator's comment: Is that such a bad thing?)

"But thats just my opinion and as one wise sage put it: opinions are like
assholes... everyone has one. And that brings us full circle to the start
of this email."

Translation: Profanity is my preferred means of communication.

"You do good work, John (and you go about it with humor). I just don't have
it in my genetic makeup to appreciate you properly. That's neither good nor
bad, I think."

Translation: You do good work John, and I can't be man enough to admit it,
because I'm a victim of genetics. I'm predisposed to being crass, and
need
to hide behind the fallacy that personality is genetic. Sorta like the guy
in prison who raped and murdered because his daddy didn't love him.
He's a victim too you know, just like me.


.


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ADVERTISEMENT




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

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http://www.quickiebuilders.org



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.






To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


JMasal@...
 

Ouch, Panzera.
And aren't you just an opening between the gluteus maximi.