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certifying projects without logs

fionapple
 

I'm worried that I wouldn't be able to certify or inspect a project I
complete if it has no logs to establish that it was built for
recreational purposes.

Let's say I buy a quickie project without logs. The airframe and
avionics are mostly complete, but I spend, say, 1,000 hours on
installing the engine, fitting the controls and building a couple
control surfaces, and checking the avionics. The prior builders are
unavailable, but I believe the panel was started by an avionics shop
and some airframe work and painting was done by another company. When
I look at the FAA documents listed at

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/av-info/dst/amateur/default.htm

I wonder:

(1) Can the plane be certificated (assuming it is airworthy)?
See 14 CFR part 21.191(g), ac20-139, ac20-27F.

Does anyone know about the designated airworthiness representatives
(DAR's) in the LVK/SFO area? Can I submit a prospective form 8000-38
to the local DAR for evaluation?


(2) Can I be certificated as the repairman for purposes of the annual
condition inspection?

This seems to be the applicable FAA document:
http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8300/8300_vol2/2_025_00.pdf

The only avenue seems to be (7)(B)(3), proving my ability to perform
condition inspections, since I'd fail (1) & (2). However, AC20-27F
(16)(a) suggests that I would also have to be the primary builder.
Does anyone have experience with getting this certificate without
prior builders' logs?

Thanks in advance...
HawkiDoug <hawkidoug@...>
 

If the airplane is airworthy, then it will pass FAA inspection to be so. If no one has applied for the mechanic's certificate, you MAY be able to get it yourself, but you have to prove to the FAA that you built 51% of the airplane. Photo's of you building it help. If you don't prove you built 51%, then you pay an A&P to do sign your log book for annual airworthiness. This is what I do as I did not build my airplane.

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974

----- Original Message -----
From: "fionapple" <fionapple@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:39 AM
Subject: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs




I'm worried that I wouldn't be able to certify or inspect a project I
complete if it has no logs to establish that it was built for
recreational purposes.

Let's say I buy a quickie project without logs. The airframe and
avionics are mostly complete, but I spend, say, 1,000 hours on
installing the engine, fitting the controls and building a couple
control surfaces, and checking the avionics. The prior builders are
unavailable, but I believe the panel was started by an avionics shop
and some airframe work and painting was done by another company. When
I look at the FAA documents listed at

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/av-info/dst/amateur/default.htm

I wonder:

(1) Can the plane be certificated (assuming it is airworthy)?
See 14 CFR part 21.191(g), ac20-139, ac20-27F.

Does anyone know about the designated airworthiness representatives
(DAR's) in the LVK/SFO area? Can I submit a prospective form 8000-38
to the local DAR for evaluation?


(2) Can I be certificated as the repairman for purposes of the annual
condition inspection?

This seems to be the applicable FAA document:
http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8300/8300_vol2/2_025_00.pdf

The only avenue seems to be (7)(B)(3), proving my ability to perform
condition inspections, since I'd fail (1) & (2). However, AC20-27F
(16)(a) suggests that I would also have to be the primary builder.
Does anyone have experience with getting this certificate without
prior builders' logs?

Thanks in advance...







Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links
Michael D. Callahan <micallahan@...>
 

This subject came up recently. One who is DEFINITELY in the know, and shall
remain nameless said that IF the plane had never been certified, it
basically doesn't exist, so you could easily get the workman's cert. If it
has been certified previously, it is nearly impossible to get the workman's
cert as the 2nd owner. Mike C.

----- Original Message -----
From: "fionapple" <fionapple@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:39 AM
Subject: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs




I'm worried that I wouldn't be able to certify or inspect a project I
complete if it has no logs to establish that it was built for
recreational purposes.

Let's say I buy a quickie project without logs. The airframe and
avionics are mostly complete, but I spend, say, 1,000 hours on
installing the engine, fitting the controls and building a couple
control surfaces, and checking the avionics. The prior builders are
unavailable, but I believe the panel was started by an avionics shop
and some airframe work and painting was done by another company. When
I look at the FAA documents listed at

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/av-info/dst/amateur/default.htm

I wonder:

(1) Can the plane be certificated (assuming it is airworthy)?
See 14 CFR part 21.191(g), ac20-139, ac20-27F.

Does anyone know about the designated airworthiness representatives
(DAR's) in the LVK/SFO area? Can I submit a prospective form 8000-38
to the local DAR for evaluation?


(2) Can I be certificated as the repairman for purposes of the annual
condition inspection?

This seems to be the applicable FAA document:
http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8300/8300_vol2/2_025_00.pdf

The only avenue seems to be (7)(B)(3), proving my ability to perform
condition inspections, since I'd fail (1) & (2). However, AC20-27F
(16)(a) suggests that I would also have to be the primary builder.
Does anyone have experience with getting this certificate without
prior builders' logs?

Thanks in advance...







Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links
James Postma <james@...>
 

The best info I have on this at this time is that you only have to show that
it was amateur built to have it certified. You do not have to do the work,
but you should do some of it to get an airworthiness certificate with you as
the manufacturer. If you have any of the build history it will be helpful.
It would not be economical for a professional to build this airplane.
Usually they sell for less than the cost of completion, so there should be
no question that it was amateur built. Do you have a bill of sale from the
previous owner? Does he have a bill of sale? etc.

This info is from talking to the FAA in the Seattle area . Your mileage may
vary.

You may be able to get the repairman's certificate if you do 1,000 hours of
work on it.

James Postma
Q2 Revmaster N145EX
Q200 N8427
Steilacoom, Washington
(253) 584-1182 9:00 to 8:00 PDT
May your header tank be always full and your wings right side up.

----- Original Message -----
From: "fionapple" <fionapple@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 10:39 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs




I'm worried that I wouldn't be able to certify or inspect a project I
complete if it has no logs to establish that it was built for
recreational purposes.

Let's say I buy a quickie project without logs. The airframe and
avionics are mostly complete, but I spend, say, 1,000 hours on
installing the engine, fitting the controls and building a couple
control surfaces, and checking the avionics. The prior builders are
unavailable, but I believe the panel was started by an avionics shop
and some airframe work and painting was done by another company. When
I look at the FAA documents listed at

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/av-info/dst/amateur/default.htm

I wonder:

(1) Can the plane be certificated (assuming it is airworthy)?
See 14 CFR part 21.191(g), ac20-139, ac20-27F.

Does anyone know about the designated airworthiness representatives
(DAR's) in the LVK/SFO area? Can I submit a prospective form 8000-38
to the local DAR for evaluation?


(2) Can I be certificated as the repairman for purposes of the annual
condition inspection?

This seems to be the applicable FAA document:
http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8300/8300_vol2/2_025_00.pdf

The only avenue seems to be (7)(B)(3), proving my ability to perform
condition inspections, since I'd fail (1) & (2). However, AC20-27F
(16)(a) suggests that I would also have to be the primary builder.
Does anyone have experience with getting this certificate without
prior builders' logs?

Thanks in advance...







Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links
haiqu
 

Hi James,

Not sure about FAA rules, but the Australian CASA boys don't care if
we do 1000 hours of work on it, since we may just be slow workers. The
operative rule is "greater than 51% of the manufacturing". The actual
rules state that consecutive homebuilders can claim the prior time
spent by the earlier builders, but only if full documentation is
presented. i.e. 8" x 10" colour glossies with the arrows and the
circles ... in reality they are unlikely to grant maintenance rights
to someone who bought a near-completed project, for obvious reasons.

Rob


--- In Q-LIST@..., "James Postma" <james@p...> wrote:
The best info I have on this at this time is that you only have to
show that
it was amateur built to have it certified. You do not have to do
the work,
but you should do some of it to get an airworthiness certificate
with you as
the manufacturer. If you have any of the build history it will be
helpful.
It would not be economical for a professional to build this airplane.
Usually they sell for less than the cost of completion, so there
should be
no question that it was amateur built. Do you have a bill of sale
from the
previous owner? Does he have a bill of sale? etc.

This info is from talking to the FAA in the Seattle area . Your
mileage may
vary.

You may be able to get the repairman's certificate if you do 1,000
hours of
work on it.

James Postma
Q2 Revmaster N145EX
Q200 N8427
Steilacoom, Washington
(253) 584-1182 9:00 to 8:00 PDT
May your header tank be always full and your wings right side up.

----- Original Message -----
From: "fionapple" <fionapple@y...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 10:39 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs




I'm worried that I wouldn't be able to certify or inspect a project I
complete if it has no logs to establish that it was built for
recreational purposes.

Let's say I buy a quickie project without logs. The airframe and
avionics are mostly complete, but I spend, say, 1,000 hours on
installing the engine, fitting the controls and building a couple
control surfaces, and checking the avionics. The prior builders are
unavailable, but I believe the panel was started by an avionics shop
and some airframe work and painting was done by another company. When
I look at the FAA documents listed at

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/av-info/dst/amateur/default.htm

I wonder:

(1) Can the plane be certificated (assuming it is airworthy)?
See 14 CFR part 21.191(g), ac20-139, ac20-27F.

Does anyone know about the designated airworthiness representatives
(DAR's) in the LVK/SFO area? Can I submit a prospective form 8000-38
to the local DAR for evaluation?


(2) Can I be certificated as the repairman for purposes of the annual
condition inspection?

This seems to be the applicable FAA document:
http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8300/8300_vol2/2_025_00.pdf

The only avenue seems to be (7)(B)(3), proving my ability to perform
condition inspections, since I'd fail (1) & (2). However, AC20-27F
(16)(a) suggests that I would also have to be the primary builder.
Does anyone have experience with getting this certificate without
prior builders' logs?

Thanks in advance...







Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links
JMasal@...
 

In a message dated 11/28/04 7:35:53 PM Central Standard Time,
micallahan@... writes:


IF the plane had never been certified, it
basically doesn't exist,
Ok, Mike, I have one that was taken off the FAA registry after a pretty good
crash. Do you suppose this one exists? Seems like it wont if its not on the
registry anymore.

j.
John ten Have <Jtenhave@...>
 

JIm,

just a thought - could you simply declare a new build? your "ahem, raw materials might just happen to be different from others "and your 51% rule will be a whole lot easier to comply with"

Too simple?

John

----- Original Message -----
From: JMasal@...
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 2:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs


In a message dated 11/28/04 7:35:53 PM Central Standard Time,
micallahan@... writes:


> IF the plane had never been certified, it
> basically doesn't exist,

Ok, Mike, I have one that was taken off the FAA registry after a pretty good
crash. Do you suppose this one exists? Seems like it wont if its not on the
registry anymore.

j.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org




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Larry Severson
 

At 10:17 AM 12/3/2004 +1100, you wrote:

JIm,

just a thought - could you simply declare a new build? your "ahem, raw materials might just happen to be different from others "and your 51% rule will be a whole lot easier to comply with"

Too simple?
Yes, too simple. The FAA has a detailed list of construction components needed to create the 51%. It needs to be consulted before trying that call. The rule has nothing to do with the time involved. There is a $10K fine for making a false statement on the form.


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...
JMasal@...
 

In a message dated 12/2/04 5:50:50 PM Central Standard Time,
larry2@... writes:


There is a $10K fine for
making a false statement on the form.
velly intelesting, thanks for dat.
j.
Michael D. Callahan <micallahan@...>
 

Jim,
I'll have to check with my guy in the know on this, but as I understand
it, the key word here is NEVER. That one has been registered before. When
you send the certification in, the paper trail will lead back to it if you
use the bill of sale for the original aircraft. If you just bought a pile of
parts that were not an airplane and had no registration with it, that's not
a registered airplane is it?
If you buy a boxed, started kit, or even a complete airplane, there is
no difference as long as neither has been registered (as in somebody
applying for a vanity N number ahead of time). If it has been registered as
N1234 even still in the box, and you buy it with a bill of sale listing it
as N1234, trouble is a'brewin. If it has been built and registered or flown
under that number, you can pretty much forget the workman's cert.
Now if you take that pile of parts, rebuild it, repair it, make
significant changes, or otherwise do enough work to encompass the 51% rule
(which is VERY vague and interpreted differently by different people), and
register it as a different airplane, you may very well get it registered and
workman certified. It will depend on who gives you the sign-off in this
case. If the designee doesn't think you are up to the work, you haven't done
enough of the work to qualify, or you didn't do enough of the various genres
of work required to meet the 51% rule (welding, engine installation, foam,
glass work, controls, rigging, etc...), you definitely will not get a
workman's cert. You need to talk with your guy about this personally. Mike
C.

----- Original Message -----
From: <JMasal@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs



In a message dated 11/28/04 7:35:53 PM Central Standard Time,
micallahan@... writes:


IF the plane had never been certified, it
basically doesn't exist,
Ok, Mike, I have one that was taken off the FAA registry after a pretty
good
crash. Do you suppose this one exists? Seems like it wont if its not on
the
registry anymore.

j.







Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links
haiqu
 

Hi Mike,

Just to expand on that from talking to CASA in Australia - and we
pretty-much follow the FAA here - if I build my own engine and prop, I
get to service those parts after the airplane is built. So the annual
might only need to be signed off by a LAME for the airframe, which
keeps overall service costs lower.

Rob

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Michael D. Callahan" <micallahan@w...>
wrote:
Jim,
I'll have to check with my guy in the know on this, but as I
understand
it, the key word here is NEVER. That one has been registered before.
When
you send the certification in, the paper trail will lead back to it
if you
use the bill of sale for the original aircraft. If you just bought a
pile of
parts that were not an airplane and had no registration with it,
that's not
a registered airplane is it?
If you buy a boxed, started kit, or even a complete airplane,
there is
no difference as long as neither has been registered (as in somebody
applying for a vanity N number ahead of time). If it has been
registered as
N1234 even still in the box, and you buy it with a bill of sale
listing it
as N1234, trouble is a'brewin. If it has been built and registered
or flown
under that number, you can pretty much forget the workman's cert.
Now if you take that pile of parts, rebuild it, repair it, make
significant changes, or otherwise do enough work to encompass the
51% rule
(which is VERY vague and interpreted differently by different
people), and
register it as a different airplane, you may very well get it
registered and
workman certified. It will depend on who gives you the sign-off in this
case. If the designee doesn't think you are up to the work, you
haven't done
enough of the work to qualify, or you didn't do enough of the
various genres
of work required to meet the 51% rule (welding, engine installation,
foam,
glass work, controls, rigging, etc...), you definitely will not get a
workman's cert. You need to talk with your guy about this
personally. Mike
C.

----- Original Message -----
From: <JMasal@a...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs



In a message dated 11/28/04 7:35:53 PM Central Standard Time,
micallahan@w... writes:


IF the plane had never been certified, it
basically doesn't exist,
Ok, Mike, I have one that was taken off the FAA registry after a
pretty
good
crash. Do you suppose this one exists? Seems like it wont if its
not on
the
registry anymore.

j.







Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links
Michael D. Callahan <micallahan@...>
 

Don't think it works that way here. It's all or nothing. Mike C.

----- Original Message -----
From: "HAIQU_OZ" <judd@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 12:55 AM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: certifying projects without logs




Hi Mike,

Just to expand on that from talking to CASA in Australia - and we
pretty-much follow the FAA here - if I build my own engine and prop, I
get to service those parts after the airplane is built. So the annual
might only need to be signed off by a LAME for the airframe, which
keeps overall service costs lower.

Rob

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Michael D. Callahan" <micallahan@w...>
wrote:
Jim,
I'll have to check with my guy in the know on this, but as I
understand
it, the key word here is NEVER. That one has been registered before.
When
you send the certification in, the paper trail will lead back to it
if you
use the bill of sale for the original aircraft. If you just bought a
pile of
parts that were not an airplane and had no registration with it,
that's not
a registered airplane is it?
If you buy a boxed, started kit, or even a complete airplane,
there is
no difference as long as neither has been registered (as in somebody
applying for a vanity N number ahead of time). If it has been
registered as
N1234 even still in the box, and you buy it with a bill of sale
listing it
as N1234, trouble is a'brewin. If it has been built and registered
or flown
under that number, you can pretty much forget the workman's cert.
Now if you take that pile of parts, rebuild it, repair it, make
significant changes, or otherwise do enough work to encompass the
51% rule
(which is VERY vague and interpreted differently by different
people), and
register it as a different airplane, you may very well get it
registered and
workman certified. It will depend on who gives you the sign-off in this
case. If the designee doesn't think you are up to the work, you
haven't done
enough of the work to qualify, or you didn't do enough of the
various genres
of work required to meet the 51% rule (welding, engine installation,
foam,
glass work, controls, rigging, etc...), you definitely will not get a
workman's cert. You need to talk with your guy about this
personally. Mike
C.

----- Original Message -----
From: <JMasal@a...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs



In a message dated 11/28/04 7:35:53 PM Central Standard Time,
micallahan@w... writes:


IF the plane had never been certified, it
basically doesn't exist,
Ok, Mike, I have one that was taken off the FAA registry after a
pretty
good
crash. Do you suppose this one exists? Seems like it wont if its
not on
the
registry anymore.

j.







Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links











Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links
One Sky Dog
 

In a message dated 12/2/2004 4:51:05 PM Mountain Standard Time,
larry2@... writes:

JIm,

just a thought - could you simply declare a new build? your "ahem, raw
materials might just happen to be different from others "and your 51% rule
will be a whole lot easier to comply with"

Too simple?
Yes, too simple. The FAA has a detailed list of construction components
needed to create the 51%. It needs to be consulted before trying that call.
The rule has nothing to do with the time involved. There is a $10K fine for
making a false statement on the form.


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...




Larry,
And others. The 51% rule applies to kits and means that at least 51% of the
labor to build the plane has to be amature. It does not have to be you! It
could be a 4th grade class and you could register it Experimental without
lifting a finger. The legal statement you sign says you swear that it was "amature
built" not that you built it.

The repaiman's certificate is a different matter and had nothing to do with
51% you must have demonstrated proof usually with build logs that you are
competent to repair the airplane. They only issue 1 per airplane.

Regards,

One Sky Dog
Ron Triano <rondefly@...>
 

I can vouch for that, the FAA won't mess around. Back about 10 years ago I
purchased a 182, the seller gave it a fresh annual and the log books had all
the AD's in it and looked ok to me, however when I flew it for a year and
took it in for annual I got a call from my mechanic that the AD's were in
the log book but were not done. In checking further he found many items that
were not up to par that had been changed. We called the FAA about the
mechanic that signed it off and found out the company didn't exist. an
investigation followed and I wound up paying a 2500. fine for flying a plane
that did not have a proper annual done. They really got after the mechanic
but I also got it for something that looked fine in the log book.

Ron Triano

_____

From: JMasal@... [mailto:JMasal@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:39 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs


In a message dated 12/2/04 5:50:50 PM Central Standard Time,
larry2@... writes:


There is a $10K fine for
making a false statement on the form.
velly intelesting, thanks for dat.
j.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org





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HawkiDoug <hawkidoug@...>
 

Ron - I guess the FAA taught you a lesson. (I bet you never call them again about a problem). Punish the messenger. Nice!!!

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Triano" <rondefly@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 8:19 AM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs



I can vouch for that, the FAA won't mess around. Back about 10 years ago I
purchased a 182, the seller gave it a fresh annual and the log books had all
the AD's in it and looked ok to me, however when I flew it for a year and
took it in for annual I got a call from my mechanic that the AD's were in
the log book but were not done. In checking further he found many items that
were not up to par that had been changed. We called the FAA about the
mechanic that signed it off and found out the company didn't exist. an
investigation followed and I wound up paying a 2500. fine for flying a plane
that did not have a proper annual done. They really got after the mechanic
but I also got it for something that looked fine in the log book.

Ron Triano

_____

From: JMasal@... [mailto:JMasal@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:39 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs


In a message dated 12/2/04 5:50:50 PM Central Standard Time,
larry2@... writes:


There is a $10K fine for
making a false statement on the form.
velly intelesting, thanks for dat.
j.





Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org





Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129k6g8ef/M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=gr
oups/S=1705065618:HM/EXP=1102138741/A=2434971/R=0/SIG=11eeoolb0/*http://www.
netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185400> click here

<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5639630.6699735.3001176/D=groups/S=
:HM/A=2434971/rand=473295115>

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Ron Triano <rondefly@...>
 

You are right, like in the airforce, don't volenteer for anything or give
out any more info than you have to.

Ron T

_____

From: HawkiDoug [mailto:hawkidoug@...]
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 6:42 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs


Ron - I guess the FAA taught you a lesson. (I bet you never call them again
about a problem). Punish the messenger. Nice!!!

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Triano" <rondefly@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 8:19 AM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs



I can vouch for that, the FAA won't mess around. Back about 10 years ago I
purchased a 182, the seller gave it a fresh annual and the log books had
all
the AD's in it and looked ok to me, however when I flew it for a year and
took it in for annual I got a call from my mechanic that the AD's were in
the log book but were not done. In checking further he found many items
that
were not up to par that had been changed. We called the FAA about the
mechanic that signed it off and found out the company didn't exist. an
investigation followed and I wound up paying a 2500. fine for flying a
plane
that did not have a proper annual done. They really got after the mechanic
but I also got it for something that looked fine in the log book.

Ron Triano

_____

From: JMasal@... [mailto:JMasal@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:39 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs


In a message dated 12/2/04 5:50:50 PM Central Standard Time,
larry2@... writes:


There is a $10K fine for
making a false statement on the form.
velly intelesting, thanks for dat.
j.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org





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Larry Severson
 

If you buy a boxed, started kit, or even a complete airplane, there is
no difference as long as neither has been registered (as in somebody
applying for a vanity N number ahead of time). If it has been registered as
N1234 even still in the box, and you buy it with a bill of sale listing it
as N1234, trouble is a'brewin. If it has been built and registered or flown
under that number, you can pretty much forget the workman's cert.
The situation can get really interesting. I bought a plane supposedly ready to fly, but not. The original builder applied for and got a tail number, but not a mfg cert. The second owner did a bunch more work, but there was no paper trail for the transfer of ownership. The 3rd owner got a new tail number and a mfg cert showing the second owner as builder. I had paper work showing that the first builder did 51% of the work, but was not listed as the builder. The FAA said, " you can get the paper work corrected in about 3 years and about $30K in legal fees, or you can get your airworthiness under the second tail number which has a listed builder." I did the 2nd. This allowed me to get past the lack of sales info between the 1st and 2nd owners. Rules are rules, unless they get in the way of flying. But, the airworthiness application is very specific as to the cost of lying.


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...
Ron <rondefly@...>
 

You can buy the ident. Tags at aircraft spruce, then take a letter punch set
(you can get them pretty cheap at a hardware store if you don't have one)
and put your ident. On it. Walla you are in business.



Ron Triano
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page8.html

_____

From: DDD [mailto:log@...]
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:07 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs



I have a problem with this also. You all know that It took me a year to get
my airplane registered to me . I still have one problem. They guy who built
the airplane took the never take metal identification tag out of the
airplane. The FAA is not aware of this. Can I get metal stamps and make a
duplicate or should I let the FAA in on this . Darrell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Triano" <rondefly@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 6:19 AM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs



I can vouch for that, the FAA won't mess around. Back about 10 years ago I
purchased a 182, the seller gave it a fresh annual and the log books had
all
the AD's in it and looked ok to me, however when I flew it for a year and
took it in for annual I got a call from my mechanic that the AD's were in
the log book but were not done. In checking further he found many items
that
were not up to par that had been changed. We called the FAA about the
mechanic that signed it off and found out the company didn't exist. an
investigation followed and I wound up paying a 2500. fine for flying a
plane
that did not have a proper annual done. They really got after the mechanic
but I also got it for something that looked fine in the log book.

Ron Triano

_____

From: JMasal@... [mailto:JMasal@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:39 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs


In a message dated 12/2/04 5:50:50 PM Central Standard Time,
larry2@... writes:


There is a $10K fine for
making a false statement on the form.
velly intelesting, thanks for dat.
j.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org





Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

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Larry Severson
 

At 07:07 PM 12/3/2004 -0800, you wrote:

I have a problem with this also. You all know that It took me a year to get
my airplane registered to me . I still have one problem. They guy who built
the airplane took the never take metal identification tag out of the
airplane. The FAA is not aware of this. Can I get metal stamps and make a
duplicate or should I let the FAA in on this . Darrell
Make it. I did. The FAA accepted it.


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...
DDD <log@...>
 

I have a problem with this also. You all know that It took me a year to get
my airplane registered to me . I still have one problem. They guy who built
the airplane took the never take metal identification tag out of the
airplane. The FAA is not aware of this. Can I get metal stamps and make a
duplicate or should I let the FAA in on this . Darrell

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Triano" <rondefly@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 6:19 AM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs



I can vouch for that, the FAA won't mess around. Back about 10 years ago I
purchased a 182, the seller gave it a fresh annual and the log books had
all
the AD's in it and looked ok to me, however when I flew it for a year and
took it in for annual I got a call from my mechanic that the AD's were in
the log book but were not done. In checking further he found many items
that
were not up to par that had been changed. We called the FAA about the
mechanic that signed it off and found out the company didn't exist. an
investigation followed and I wound up paying a 2500. fine for flying a
plane
that did not have a proper annual done. They really got after the mechanic
but I also got it for something that looked fine in the log book.

Ron Triano

_____

From: JMasal@... [mailto:JMasal@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:39 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] certifying projects without logs


In a message dated 12/2/04 5:50:50 PM Central Standard Time,
larry2@... writes:


There is a $10K fine for
making a false statement on the form.
velly intelesting, thanks for dat.
j.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org





Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT

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oups/S=1705065618:HM/EXP=1102138741/A=2434971/R=0/SIG=11eeoolb0/*http://www.
netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185400> click here

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