Date
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Gascolators
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Steve <sham@...>
Jim, Do you have a main tank sump drain??
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Steve Ham ----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Patillo To: Q-LIST@... Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:33 PM Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Re: Gascolators Hi Steve & Phil, I had a 1" blast tube installed directly onto the gascolator when it vapor locked and the engine quit(near ground)a few years back. Maybe I'm still just a little over sensitive. You bring up a good point about the FBO tanks but when was the last time you ever found any water in your quickie tanks? Come on I'm a big boy, I can take it! Did you ever find any? Since the system is gravity fed from the header and you are pulling from a low spot in the header, wouldn't any accumulated water be sucked into the carburator right after start up or before run up? I'm just curious? I respect your opinions but like I said; I really liked my gascolator til the engine quit. I've got 400+ hours on the plane since I tossed the gascolator with no problems. P.S. I've checked for water many times in my Q but never found any. Regards, Jim Patillo N46JP Q200 --- In Q-LIST@..., "Steve" <sham@i...> wrote: > Jim, I had the same thing happen and decided to install a 1" blast tube directly on the gascolator. I have not had any trouble since. I sure like having the gascolator with the ability to separate any moister at the firewall. These birds may not sweat, but the tanks at the FBO sure due. > > Steve Ham----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Patillo > To: Q-LIST@... > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:01 PM > Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Q200 takeoff procedures > > > > > Phil, > > Me and several others have had problems with gascolators on the > Q200. Bob Farnam warned me to remove it but I didn't listen. I was > always an advocate for gascolators until mine almost caused a > catastrophe. > > If fact on a real hot day a couple of years ago, I had a vapor lock > onj take off at 100'. I had a shroud around the gascolator and the > unit was well cooled I thought. I removed and tossed it and never > had the problem again. I've never seen any example of water in the > fuel even though I have the fuel inlet on the top of the fuselage. > Since there are no aluminum tanks (no sweating), I feel the > gascolator is not needed. > > My fuel line runs throught the firewall just in front of my right > foot. Its a very short fuel run from the firewall to the carb and is > fire sleeve protected. If it doesn't do you any good why do you need > it? > > Regards, > JIm Patillo N46JP Q200 > > > > Kevin: > > > > Listen to everything Jim has to say. But I have a Gascolator on my > plane and > > it works fine. If you do have a Gascolator, be sure it is very > well > > insulated from engine bay heat. Mine has a neat little shroud that > keeps it > > insulated. You don't want to percolate in your Gascolator and end > up with vapor > > lock. > > > > I think Jim is just a little angry at Gascolators. That's because > he > > developed a case of pitcher's elbow when he threw his across the > tarmac before > > warming up. > > > > I like the idea of a Gascolator since it is an additional water > trap that > > can be checked and drained during a preflight. Just be sure it is > well > > insulated. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Phil > > N870BM > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickie Builders Association WEB site > http://www.quickiebuilders.org > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://www.quickiebuilders.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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In a message dated 1/18/05 5:47:30 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
patillo@... writes: I've got 400+ hours on the plane since I tossed the gascolator with no problems. Hello Jim: The question I have is,"How many trouble free hours on the plane BEFORE you tossed the gascolator?" Your root cause analysis led you to discard the gascolator. What actually iron clad proof do you have that the gascolator and vapor lock were the culprit? Sure, twin electrics make it unlikely that an electrical failure was to blame, but how are you so sure that vapor lock due to gascolator temperatures were to blame? Could you have checked the Gascolator THAT day for water? Could it have been the day you decided NOT to check it? This, and more---when we return to "When the Prop Turns" Organ music plays in abrupt suspenseful ending. Cheers, Phil N870BM |
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Jim Patillo <patillo@...>
Hi Steve & Phil,
I had a 1" blast tube installed directly onto the gascolator when it vapor locked and the engine quit(near ground)a few years back. Maybe I'm still just a little over sensitive. You bring up a good point about the FBO tanks but when was the last time you ever found any water in your quickie tanks? Come on I'm a big boy, I can take it! Did you ever find any? Since the system is gravity fed from the header and you are pulling from a low spot in the header, wouldn't any accumulated water be sucked into the carburator right after start up or before run up? I'm just curious? I respect your opinions but like I said; I really liked my gascolator til the engine quit. I've got 400+ hours on the plane since I tossed the gascolator with no problems. P.S. I've checked for water many times in my Q but never found any. Regards, Jim Patillo N46JP Q200 --- In Q-LIST@..., "Steve" <sham@i...> wrote: Jim, I had the same thing happen and decided to install a 1" blasttube directly on the gascolator. I have not had any trouble since. I sure like having the gascolator with the ability to separate any moister at the firewall. These birds may not sweat, but the tanks at the FBO sure due. was always an advocate for gascolators until mine almost caused alock onj take off at 100'. I had a shroud around the gascolator andthe unit was well cooled I thought. I removed and tossed it andnever had the problem again. I've never seen any example of water inthe fuel even though I have the fuel inlet on the top of thefuselage. Since there are no aluminum tanks (no sweating), I feel theright foot. Its a very short fuel run from the firewall to the carband is fire sleeve protected. If it doesn't do you any good why do youneed it?on my plane andvery wellthat keeps itend up with vaporbecause hethe tarmac beforewater trap thatit is well----------- Yahoo! Groups Linksof Service. |
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Steve <sham@...>
Jim, I have only on one occasion. I got fuel at a small airport outside of Chicago last year. I check my main about every couple of tanks and found some ( 1-1.5 ounces) of brown,rusty looking water. I could only assume it came from the metal tanks at the last airport.
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Your point is well taken. If one would check the main sump there would be no need for a gascalator. Composite doesn't sweat. That's why we have this list......learn sumpin new every day. Thank's Steve Ham ----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Patillo To: Q-LIST@... Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:23 AM Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Gascolators Yes I do have a main tank sump drain Steve. Never found any water there either. But you didn't say whether you ever found water in your Quickie or not. Jim P > Jim, Do you have a main tank sump drain?? > Steve Ham > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Patillo > To: Q-LIST@... > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:33 PM > Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Re: Gascolators > > > > > Hi Steve & Phil, > > I had a 1" blast tube installed directly onto the gascolator when it > vapor locked and the engine quit(near ground)a few years back. Maybe > I'm still just a little over sensitive. You bring up a good point > about the FBO tanks but when was the last time you ever found any > water in your quickie tanks? Come on I'm a big boy, I can take it! > Did you ever find any? > > Since the system is gravity fed from the header and you are pulling > from a low spot in the header, wouldn't any accumulated water be > sucked into the carburator right after start up or before run up? > I'm just curious? > > I respect your opinions but like I said; I really liked my > gascolator til the engine quit. I've got 400+ hours on the plane > since I tossed the gascolator with no problems. > > P.S. I've checked for water many times in my Q but never found any. > > Regards, > Jim Patillo N46JP Q200 > > --- In Q-LIST@..., "Steve" <sham@i...> wrote: > > Jim, I had the same thing happen and decided to install a 1" blast > tube directly on the gascolator. I have not had any trouble since. I > sure like having the gascolator with the ability to separate any > moister at the firewall. These birds may not sweat, but the tanks at > the FBO sure due. > > > > Steve Ham----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jim Patillo > > To: Q-LIST@... > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:01 PM > > Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Q200 takeoff procedures > > > > > > > > > > Phil, > > > > Me and several others have had problems with gascolators on the > > Q200. Bob Farnam warned me to remove it but I didn't listen. I > was > > always an advocate for gascolators until mine almost caused a > > catastrophe. > > > > If fact on a real hot day a couple of years ago, I had a vapor > lock > > onj take off at 100'. I had a shroud around the gascolator and > the > > unit was well cooled I thought. I removed and tossed it and > never > > had the problem again. I've never seen any example of water in > the > > fuel even though I have the fuel inlet on the top of the > fuselage. > > Since there are no aluminum tanks (no sweating), I feel the > > gascolator is not needed. > > > > My fuel line runs throught the firewall just in front of my > right > > foot. Its a very short fuel run from the firewall to the carb > and is > > fire sleeve protected. If it doesn't do you any good why do you > need > > it? > > > > Regards, > > JIm Patillo N46JP Q200 > > > > > > > Kevin: > > > > > > Listen to everything Jim has to say. But I have a Gascolator > on my > > plane and > > > it works fine. If you do have a Gascolator, be sure it is > very > > well > > > insulated from engine bay heat. Mine has a neat little shroud > that > > keeps it > > > insulated. You don't want to percolate in your Gascolator and > end > > up with vapor > > > lock. > > > > > > I think Jim is just a little angry at Gascolators. That's > because > > he > > > developed a case of pitcher's elbow when he threw his across > the > > tarmac before > > > warming up. > > > > > > I like the idea of a Gascolator since it is an additional > water > > trap that > > > can be checked and drained during a preflight. Just be sure > it is > > well > > > insulated. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Phil > > > N870BM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickie Builders Association WEB site > > http://www.quickiebuilders.org > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- --- > ----------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quickie Builders Association WEB site > http://www.quickiebuilders.org > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://www.quickiebuilders.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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Jim Patillo <patillo@...>
Yes I do have a main tank sump drain Steve. Never found any water
there either. But you didn't say whether you ever found water in your Quickie or not. Jim P Jim, Do you have a main tank sump drain??it vapor locked and the engine quit(near ground)a few years back.Maybe I'm still just a little over sensitive. You bring up a good pointit! Did you ever find any?pulling from a low spot in the header, wouldn't any accumulated water beany. blast tube directly on the gascolator. I have not had any troublesince. I sure like having the gascolator with the ability to separate anyat the FBO sure due.the > Q200. Bob Farnam warned me to remove it but I didn't listen.I wasvapor lockand thein theyou needGascolator on myshroud thatand endacross thesure it is--- -----------Terms of Service.---------- Yahoo! Groups LinksService. |
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MartinErni@...
Jim,
In 900 hours have never seen one drop of water - may buy some one day and hope I catch it before it leaves the main tank. Earnest |
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Jim Patillo <patillo@...>
Hi Phil,
Hope everything is going well and you are gainfully employed. I had about 150 hours on my Q when the vapor lock occured. I had dual mags at the time. Prior flights through the year were made in cool to moderate weather. This was the hottest day I had flown in to date. I flew at our open house air show around 10:00 AM in the morning, brought the plane back and it heat soaked on the ramp for 4 hours in about 97 degree weather when I decided to fly again. Thats when the engine quit. When the gascolator was installed I checked it every time before flight. There was no water in it prior to flight. It was on my preflight card and I followed it! This problem has happened to others besides myself. Quickie knew there was a problem because they made a fix and made Q pilots aware of it when it happened to them. I suppose my fuel line (with fire sleeve) routing also contributed to the problem being plumbed in front of the oil tank. I just wanted to eliminate as much fuel in the engine area as possible. Now all I have is a 9-10" line from fire wall to MP3SA with fire sleeve. Guys take this as it is offered, just information. Regards, Jim Patillo Q200 N46JP Standard Time, patillo@a... writes:BEFORE you tossed the gascolator?" Your root cause analysis led you todiscard the gascolator. What actually iron clad proof do you have that thegascolator and vapor lock were the culprit? Sure, twin electrics make itunlikely that an electrical failure was to blame, but how are you so sure thatvapor lock due to gascolator temperatures were to blame? Could you have checked theGascolator THAT day for water? Could it have been the day you decided NOT tocheck it? music plays in abrupt suspenseful ending. |
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No water ever found in mine, Jim. I concede that without the gascolator and
with very little exposed fuel line in the engine bay is a very optimum way to go. Less hardware, less hardware malfunction. I located a job in mid November that is only 5 miles from the house and in my field of profession, quality management. web site is _www.RidgelineEnterprises.com_ (http://www.RidgelineEnterprises.com) . Jim, U Da Man. Phil Lankford N870BM |
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Bartholomew Hanson Fisher
One thing that has not been mentioned yet is that Jim, Earnest and I have higher
performance engines and therefore produce more heat. Now many problems we encounter are less likely with a completely stock o200 that can produce less heat. That said the case could still happen and although I have never found water or had a lock this is sound advice. I will tell you the quality of fuel, refiners, and holding tanks have improved. Even living in MI with our drastic climate changes, and hi humidity no Gascolators for me. Bart Fisher Quoting MartinErni@...: Jim, In 900 hours have never seen one drop of water - may buy some one day and hope I catch it before it leaves the main tank. Earnest Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://www.quickiebuilders.org Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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I am really at odds at your comments, John. On the one hand, you basically
take my side on the issue of gascolators being a good thing when properly installed. Then you turn around and say something like," a piece of Bush" when I am sure you meant to say,"a piece of Kerry." Phil Lankford N870BM |
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JohntenHave <Jtenhave@...>
Gentlemen,
this omission of a safety device is not based upon a consideration of all the possible reasons why it was mandated in the first place. Most of the reasons for insisting on gascolators and other seemingly irrelevant restrictions are written retrospectively in the blood of someone who's last thoughts were "I didn't think that would happen to me" Water gets into fuel several ways - anybody wash their aircraft? Anyone fly high enough to cool the fuel? Anyone fill from jerrycans? Anyone filled far from home - because it was either that fuel or no fuel? Remember that Gascolators also provide some crude fuel filtering as well. It is dodgy logic to say this device was installed in such a manner that it may have caused vapour lock and therefore the device is useless and needs to be "deep sixed". Surely the problem lies with the installation? - If I were to connect my ignition leads back to front and the engine ran like a dog, applying this approach I would call the mag a piece of "Bush", and hurl it into the corner of the hangar..... Sure, I might well have many hours of "mag problem" free flying but if my electronic ignition turns up it's toes in flight, I doubt if there would be time to add "but the mag didn't fail" as a coda to my last will and testament. Care here guys, there are enough compromises in these aircraft without adding to the list for the wrong reasons. John ten Have SAAA tech counsellor Q1 VH HKS Long Eze VH XMX Rotorway Exec VH BMR --- In Q-LIST@..., fisherb@u... wrote: One thing that has not been mentioned yet is that Jim, Earnest andI have higher performance engines and therefore produce more heat. Now manyproblems we encounter are less likely with a completely stock o200 that canproduce less heat. That said the case could still happen and although I havenever found water or had a lock this is sound advice. I will tell you thequality of fuel, refiners, and holding tanks have improved. Even living in MI withour drastic climate changes, and hi humidity no Gascolators for me.buy some one day Service. |
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Ron Triano <rondefly@...>
Right on Phil
Ron T _____ From: britmcman@... [mailto:britmcman@...] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 6:40 PM To: Q-LIST@... Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: Gascolators I am really at odds at your comments, John. On the one hand, you basically take my side on the issue of gascolators being a good thing when properly installed. Then you turn around and say something like," a piece of Bush" when I am sure you meant to say,"a piece of Kerry." Phil Lankford N870BM Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://www.quickiebuilders.org _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... <mailto:Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...?subject=Unsubscribe> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . |
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JohntenHave <Jtenhave@...>
sorry Phil, it was the first four letter word that popped into my
head... John --- In Q-LIST@..., britmcman@a... wrote: I am really at odds at your comments, John. On the one hand, youbasically take my side on the issue of gascolators being a good thing whenproperly installed. Then you turn around and say something like," a pieceof Bush" when I am sure you meant to say,"a piece of Kerry." |
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I like President Bush also John. What up Dude?
Bruce -- "JohntenHave" <Jtenhave@...> wrote: sorry Phil, it was the first four letter word that popped into my head... John --- In Q-LIST@..., britmcman@a... wrote: I am really at odds at your comments, John. On the one hand, youbasically take my side on the issue of gascolators being a good thing whenproperly installed. Then you turn around and say something like," a pieceof Bush" when I am sure you meant to say,"a piece of Kerry." Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://www.quickiebuilders.org Yahoo! Groups Links ___________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! |
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Stephen Kulczycky <q2pilot@...>
In 1800 hrs operating time and 1600 hrs flying time I never found a drop of water in my tanks. Don't have a gascolator from day one. Figured the header tank acts as a gascolator. Seems to work.
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Regards, Steve K CGMBK ----- Original Message -----
From: <MartinErni@...> To: <Q-LIST@...> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: Re: Gascolators
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JohntenHave <Jtenhave@...>
You know Stephen,
in 33 years of flying I have never once fallen out of any aircraft, I think that I will give my seatbelts the flick..... I reckon the "puckered clench" will hold me in.... John --- In Q-LIST@..., "Stephen Kulczycky" <q2pilot@l...> wrote: In 1800 hrs operating time and 1600 hrs flying time I never found adrop of water in my tanks. Don't have a gascolator from day one. Figuredthe header tank acts as a gascolator. Seems to work.one day and hope I catch it before it leaves the main tank. |
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Stephen Kulczycky <q2pilot@...>
John,
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If you read my comment carefully, you will realize that this was a personal observation, not a recommendation not to use a gascolator. We all are responsible for our decisions and have to live with them. Some of my buddies who fly Cessnas and other assorted "safe" spam cans think I am crazy flying a dangerous plane like the Quickie. It's a personal choice. I assure you that my sphincter muscles have been relaxed for the last 16 years. How about yours? ----- Original Message -----
From: "JohntenHave" <Jtenhave@...> To: <Q-LIST@...> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 10:23 PM Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Gascolators
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ron wehba <rwehba@...>
just why do they think a quickie is a dangerous plane?++++++++++++++++++++++++
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----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Kulczycky To: Q-LIST@... Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 1:12 AM Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: Gascolators John, If you read my comment carefully, you will realize that this was a personal observation, not a recommendation not to use a gascolator. We all are responsible for our decisions and have to live with them. Some of my buddies who fly Cessnas and other assorted "safe" spam cans think I am crazy flying a dangerous plane like the Quickie. It's a personal choice. I assure you that my sphincter muscles have been relaxed for the last 16 years. How about yours? ----- Original Message ----- From: "JohntenHave" <Jtenhave@...> To: <Q-LIST@...> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 10:23 PM Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Gascolators > > > You know Stephen, > > in 33 years of flying I have never once fallen out of any aircraft, I > think that I will give my seatbelts the flick..... I reckon > the "puckered clench" will hold me in.... > > > John > > > > --- In Q-LIST@..., "Stephen Kulczycky" <q2pilot@l...> > wrote: >> In 1800 hrs operating time and 1600 hrs flying time I never found a > drop of >> water in my tanks. Don't have a gascolator from day one. Figured > the header >> tank acts as a gascolator. Seems to work. >> Regards, >> Steve K >> CGMBK >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <MartinErni@a...> >> To: <Q-LIST@...> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: Re: Gascolators >> >> >> > >> > Jim, >> > In 900 hours have never seen one drop of water - may buy some > one day >> > and hope I catch it before it leaves the main tank. >> > Earnest >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Quickie Builders Association WEB site >> > http://www.quickiebuilders.org >> > >> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > Quickie Builders Association WEB site > http://www.quickiebuilders.org > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://www.quickiebuilders.org Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Q-LIST-unsubscribe@... c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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JohntenHave <Jtenhave@...>
Stephen,
relaxed? I would seek medical attention immediately! John (Correctly tensioned) --- In Q-LIST@..., "Stephen Kulczycky" <q2pilot@l...> wrote: John,personal observation, not a recommendation not to use a gascolator. We allare responsible for our decisions and have to live with them. Some ofmy buddies who fly Cessnas and other assorted "safe" spam cans think I amcrazy flying a dangerous plane like the Quickie. It's a personal choice. Iassure you that my sphincter muscles have been relaxed for the last 16 years.How about yours? |
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Dave <dave@...>
Perhaps Dr. Steve could make an appointment to see himself! ;-p
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Dave Richardson -----Original Message-----
From: JohntenHave [mailto:Jtenhave@...] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 4:59 PM To: Q-LIST@... Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Gascolators Stephen, relaxed? I would seek medical attention immediately! John (Correctly tensioned) --- In Q-LIST@..., "Stephen Kulczycky" <q2pilot@l...> wrote: John,personal observation, not a recommendation not to use a gascolator. We allare responsible for our decisions and have to live with them. Some ofmy buddies who fly Cessnas and other assorted "safe" spam cans think I amcrazy flying a dangerous plane like the Quickie. It's a personal choice. Iassure you that my sphincter muscles have been relaxed for the last 16 years.How about yours? Quickie Builders Association WEB site http://www.quickiebuilders.org Yahoo! Groups Links |
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