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N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems

One Sky Dog
 

In a message dated 4/18/2005 6:59:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
kfortin@... writes:

Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after takeoff.




Kevin,
Head pressure of water is apx .5 psi per foot. With gas which is apx 75% as
dense as water the pressure is apx .375 psi per foot for a total of 1.125
psi.fuel pressure or .0764 inches of mercury.

Remember 14.7 psi is 33.9 FEET of water!!!

Depending on where your filler is you definitely could pull your fuel
pressure to zero.

When I first got my plane the cabin flow was in the tail exit vent and out
the side inlet vents.

Excellent handling of the sensory overload.

Regards,

One Sky Dog
rbarbour27@...
 

Sam - I was on that flight with Art Jewett in Springfield, MO. As I remember
it, while Art was fueling his plane he was talking to the fuel truck driver
and got distracted. He realized he was running a little late so he just handed
the fuel truck driver the hose and quickly latched the gas access door. I
climbed in and off we went. We were at about 100 feet altitude and the engine
just seemed to lose RPM. Art radioed a MAYDAY and the tower operator sounded
the alarm. Art told the tower he was going to do a 180 and land downwind. We
finally made it back to the airport and the tower operator radioed that he was
about 30 seconds from ordering a "foaming of the runway". We taxied back to
the hangar and began, removed the cowl and started looking for any cause for
the problem. Finally, Art opened the gas door and the cap for this filler tube
was laying right along side the opened gas tube. Events like this sure take
one's mind off "hanky-panky." Just thought I'd share that event with the
brothers that illustrates what can happen when you lose ram air pressure in the
fuel system.

Dick Barbour
Rogers, AR.
Kevin Fortin <kfortin@...>
 

Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it, but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that
has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting. The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,
but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without
any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson
bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn, I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Mark/Pat Pearson/Pound <wlkabout@...>
 

kevin:
Can you rig up a vacumn to the gas filler to try to replicate the
apparent lose of fuel flow? measure the vacumn?

Mark

Kevin Fortin wrote:


Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something
here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it
was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term
loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force.
It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward
facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air
rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the
gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely
could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of
a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after
takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a
separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before
my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it,
but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin



-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that

has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting.
The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all
leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,

but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf

Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other
firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can
for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined
up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan
as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at
this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan
B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a
few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get
her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's
say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without

any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for
a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started
pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson

bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn,
I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran
the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting
down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the
compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch,
and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it
before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet
an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











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http://www.quickiebuilders.org


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http://www.quickiebuilders.org




---------------------------------------------------------------
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Sam Hoskins <shoskins@...>
 

Kevin,

This phenomena of the low pressure air leaking into the fuel system is well
documented. In fact, that was my first thought when I read your e-mail.
Naturally all the gascolator foes come out of the woodwork, but if you have
a leaky gas cap you will have trouble.

It happened to me, to Art Jewett, and to others. I made a mention of it on
my modifications page: http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/modifications.html

Sam

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html







_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Kevin Fortin
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:58 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems




Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it, but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that
has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting. The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,
but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without
any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson
bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn, I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude Children's Research
Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'
http://us.click.yahoo.com/6iY7fA/5WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/SyTolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

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http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links











Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org






_____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/

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Kevin Fortin <kfortin@...>
 

Mark,

That sparks some interesting testing ideas. Let me do a bit of math and see
what kind of vacuum 120/140 mph (in Denver) represents, then I can guess if
I can make a "constant vacuum" supply that I can use on the ramp for
testing.....Interesting


Kevin



kevin:
Can you rig up a vacumn to the gas filler to try to replicate the
apparent lose of fuel flow? measure the vacumn?

Mark

Kevin Fortin wrote:


Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something
here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it
was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term
loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force.
It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward
facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air
rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the
gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely
could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of
a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after
takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a
separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before
my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it,
but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin



-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that

has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting.
The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all
leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,

but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf

Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other
firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can
for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined
up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan
as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at
this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan
B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a
few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get
her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's
say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without

any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for
a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started
pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson

bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn,
I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran
the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting
down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the
compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch,
and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it
before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet
an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links











Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org




---------------------------------------------------------------
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* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Q-LIST-unsubscribe@...

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links
Kevin Fortin <kfortin@...>
 

Sam and gang,

I have to admit, thinking that I scared the hell out of myself because I
didn't tighten the gas cap properly is a bit annoying but at this point,
this line of thinking is making the most sense. If you or anyone has a way
to test this I would appreciate it.

Also, any opinions on a boost pump to give a bit more margin would be
appreciated.

I still may have some engine problems that I want to get to, but I feel sure
that my excitement was fuel related.

Note....I really don't want to do a repeat performance. I'm sure the tower
would appreciate it too.

Kevin

Kevin,

This phenomena of the low pressure air leaking into the fuel system is well
documented. In fact, that was my first thought when I read your e-mail.
Naturally all the gascolator foes come out of the woodwork, but if you have
a leaky gas cap you will have trouble.

It happened to me, to Art Jewett, and to others. I made a mention of it on
my modifications page: http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/modifications.html

Sam

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html







_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Kevin Fortin
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:58 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems




Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it, but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that
has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting. The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,
but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without
any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson
bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn, I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Mark/Pat Pearson/Pound <wlkabout@...>
 

Kevin:
How big of a syringe can you find? You don't really need to know
how much the arrangement as is will/might generate. You need to know if
doing so can recreate your problem.

Kevin Fortin wrote:



Mark,

That sparks some interesting testing ideas. Let me do a bit of math
and see
what kind of vacuum 120/140 mph (in Denver) represents, then I can
guess if
I can make a "constant vacuum" supply that I can use on the ramp for
testing.....Interesting


Kevin



kevin:
Can you rig up a vacumn to the gas filler to try to replicate the
apparent lose of fuel flow? measure the vacumn?

Mark

Kevin Fortin wrote:


Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something
here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that
it
was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term
loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force.
It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward
facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air
rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the
gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it
absolutely
could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head"
of
a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after
takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a
separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed
before
my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do
it,
but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin



-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing
that

has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting.
The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize
the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't
have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all
leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on
engines,

but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of
your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On
Behalf

Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other
firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can
for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined
up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per
plan
as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet
the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at
this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan
B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a
few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get
her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's
say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground
without

any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out
for
a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started
pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake
(Johnson

bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway.
Damn,
I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten
hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran
the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting
down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the
compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not
knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch,
and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it
before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet
an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











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http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links









Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org




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Service.
L Koutz <koutzl@...>
 

I changed over and added a "boost pump". Too many close calls like yours!

I also had a fuel starvation engine "hiccup" probably caused by a cracked main fuel filler cap.

Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Fortin" <kfortin@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 11:03 PM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems




Sam and gang,

I have to admit, thinking that I scared the hell out of myself because I
didn't tighten the gas cap properly is a bit annoying but at this point,
this line of thinking is making the most sense. If you or anyone has a way
to test this I would appreciate it.

Also, any opinions on a boost pump to give a bit more margin would be
appreciated.

I still may have some engine problems that I want to get to, but I feel sure
that my excitement was fuel related.

Note....I really don't want to do a repeat performance. I'm sure the tower
would appreciate it too.

Kevin

Kevin,

This phenomena of the low pressure air leaking into the fuel system is well
documented. In fact, that was my first thought when I read your e-mail.
Naturally all the gascolator foes come out of the woodwork, but if you have
a leaky gas cap you will have trouble.

It happened to me, to Art Jewett, and to others. I made a mention of it on
my modifications page: http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/modifications.html

Sam

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html
Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

Dick as well as fitting a short up - facing vent I have an electric in - line fuel pump. It is important to choose a pump that will free flow when switched off.I am using FuelFlow brand which is good for up to 32 gal/hr and 5 psi.It cost AUD80 and is good for peace of mind.
Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: rbarbour27@...
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems


Sam - I was on that flight with Art Jewett in Springfield, MO. As I remember
it, while Art was fueling his plane he was talking to the fuel truck driver
and got distracted. He realized he was running a little late so he just handed
the fuel truck driver the hose and quickly latched the gas access door. I
climbed in and off we went. We were at about 100 feet altitude and the engine
just seemed to lose RPM. Art radioed a MAYDAY and the tower operator sounded
the alarm. Art told the tower he was going to do a 180 and land downwind. We
finally made it back to the airport and the tower operator radioed that he was
about 30 seconds from ordering a "foaming of the runway". We taxied back to
the hangar and began, removed the cowl and started looking for any cause for
the problem. Finally, Art opened the gas door and the cap for this filler tube
was laying right along side the opened gas tube. Events like this sure take
one's mind off "hanky-panky." Just thought I'd share that event with the
brothers that illustrates what can happen when you lose ram air pressure in the
fuel system.

Dick Barbour
Rogers, AR.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org





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Sam Hoskins <shoskins@...>
 

Kevin,

You can expect your vent system to have very minor leaks. It would not be
expected to hold pressure over a long period of time. However, you want to
ensure there is more air entering the vent system than there is air leaving
it. Here is how I test mine, crude, but effective.

Crawl under the aircraft and wipe your ram-air vent clean with a towel. Put
your mouth over the tube and blow hard. You will be surprised at the volume
needed to pressurize the system. Quickly put your finger over the vent
tube, hold for 5 or 10 seconds, then release.

When you let go, you should feel air rushing back out of the vent. If you
do, you are ok.

Now, simulate the leak condition that you had and do the experiment again to
check the difference.

Good Luck,

Sam

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html







_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
rbarbour27@...
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 11:51 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems



Sam - I was on that flight with Art Jewett in Springfield, MO. As I
remember
it, while Art was fueling his plane he was talking to the fuel truck driver
and got distracted. He realized he was running a little late so he just
handed
the fuel truck driver the hose and quickly latched the gas access door. I
climbed in and off we went. We were at about 100 feet altitude and the
engine
just seemed to lose RPM. Art radioed a MAYDAY and the tower operator
sounded
the alarm. Art told the tower he was going to do a 180 and land downwind.
We
finally made it back to the airport and the tower operator radioed that he
was
about 30 seconds from ordering a "foaming of the runway". We taxied back to

the hangar and began, removed the cowl and started looking for any cause for

the problem. Finally, Art opened the gas door and the cap for this filler
tube
was laying right along side the opened gas tube. Events like this sure take

one's mind off "hanky-panky." Just thought I'd share that event with the
brothers that illustrates what can happen when you lose ram air pressure in
the
fuel system.

Dick Barbour
Rogers, AR.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org






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Sickler, Terry L <terry.l.sickler@...>
 

Kevin,
Have you checked the routing of your fuel lines? Are they covered with
Fire Sleeve firewall forward? What type of pump are you using to provide
fuel transfer? Do you leave it on? Do you have a gascolator installed? I
will come by to see you, look over what you have and discuss this, if
you would like. You do realize that your motor has Venolia high
compression racing pistons I it... Right? What type of fuel are you
burning? ~T~

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 6:58 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems




Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here
with the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that
it was not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that
term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward
facing vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air
rushing by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the
gravity feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it
absolutely could be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a
pressure "head" of a 1 1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after
takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a
separate problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it,
but that was a bit extreme.

Kevin



-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that
has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting. The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,
but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds. Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to
get her back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing.
Let's say the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground
without any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll
out for a bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of
the situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started
pulling a bit to the right. When I realized how hard I was braking I let
off of the brake (Johnson
bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn, I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp. This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting
down, when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











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Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude Children's Research
Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'
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French <LJFrench@...>
 

Kevin,
This does sound exactly like what typically happens with a vent problem. I have voiced my opinions on this in the past and you can refer to them in the archives and I'm not the type to beat a dead horse here. I personally was not happy with a fuel system where you had to always ensure the fuel cap was sealed tight.
One interesting note from my manometer testing of the vent system is that the "vacuum" level generated at my fuel fill cap is highest in high angles of attack - worst case being at the point of pitch buck. I can go fly without the fuel cap and the only time my ram vent is overtaken by the "vacuum" on the fuel filler neck is if I fly for a brief time near stall speed.

LF



Sam and gang,

I have to admit, thinking that I scared the hell out of myself because I
didn't tighten the gas cap properly is a bit annoying but at this point,
this line of thinking is making the most sense. If you or anyone has a way
to test this I would appreciate it.

Also, any opinions on a boost pump to give a bit more margin would be
appreciated.

I still may have some engine problems that I want to get to, but I feel sure
that my excitement was fuel related.

Note....I really don't want to do a repeat performance. I'm sure the tower
would appreciate it too.

Kevin

Kevin,

This phenomena of the low pressure air leaking into the fuel system is well
documented. In fact, that was my first thought when I read your e-mail.
Naturally all the gascolator foes come out of the woodwork, but if you have
a leaky gas cap you will have trouble.

It happened to me, to Art Jewett, and to others. I made a mention of it on
my modifications page: http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/modifications.html

Sam

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html







_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Kevin Fortin
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:58 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems




Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it, but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin



-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that
has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting. The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,
but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without
any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson
bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn, I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links











Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org






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Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

James, I believe that every gravity feed installation should fit free flow in-line pump and a bipass with check valve makes it foolproof (if the check valve is installed right). And every Q should fit a header vent as well.
Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: James Postma
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems


A bypass line with a check valve is an even better idea. I have one.

James Postma

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 3:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems


>
> Dick as well as fitting a short up - facing vent I have an electric in -
> line fuel pump. It is important to choose a pump that will free flow when
> switched off.I am using FuelFlow brand which is good for up to 32 gal/hr
> and 5 psi.It cost AUD80 and is good for peace of mind.
> Peter
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rbarbour27@...
> To: Q-LIST@...
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 2:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems
>
>
> Sam - I was on that flight with Art Jewett in Springfield, MO. As I
> remember
> it, while Art was fueling his plane he was talking to the fuel truck
> driver
> and got distracted. He realized he was running a little late so he just
> handed
> the fuel truck driver the hose and quickly latched the gas access door.
> I
> climbed in and off we went. We were at about 100 feet altitude and the
> engine
> just seemed to lose RPM. Art radioed a MAYDAY and the tower operator
> sounded
> the alarm. Art told the tower he was going to do a 180 and land
> downwind. We
> finally made it back to the airport and the tower operator radioed that
> he was
> about 30 seconds from ordering a "foaming of the runway". We taxied back
> to
> the hangar and began, removed the cowl and started looking for any cause
> for
> the problem. Finally, Art opened the gas door and the cap for this
> filler tube
> was laying right along side the opened gas tube. Events like this sure
> take
> one's mind off "hanky-panky." Just thought I'd share that event with the
> brothers that illustrates what can happen when you lose ram air pressure
> in the
> fuel system.
>
> Dick Barbour
> Rogers, AR.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Quickie Builders Association WEB site
> http://www.quickiebuilders.org
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
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> http://www.quickiebuilders.org
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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>
>



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James Postma <james@...>
 

A bypass line with a check valve is an even better idea. I have one.

James Postma

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Harris" <peterjfharris@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 3:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems



Dick as well as fitting a short up - facing vent I have an electric in - line fuel pump. It is important to choose a pump that will free flow when switched off.I am using FuelFlow brand which is good for up to 32 gal/hr and 5 psi.It cost AUD80 and is good for peace of mind.
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: rbarbour27@...
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems


Sam - I was on that flight with Art Jewett in Springfield, MO. As I remember
it, while Art was fueling his plane he was talking to the fuel truck driver
and got distracted. He realized he was running a little late so he just handed
the fuel truck driver the hose and quickly latched the gas access door. I
climbed in and off we went. We were at about 100 feet altitude and the engine
just seemed to lose RPM. Art radioed a MAYDAY and the tower operator sounded
the alarm. Art told the tower he was going to do a 180 and land downwind. We
finally made it back to the airport and the tower operator radioed that he was
about 30 seconds from ordering a "foaming of the runway". We taxied back to
the hangar and began, removed the cowl and started looking for any cause for
the problem. Finally, Art opened the gas door and the cap for this filler tube
was laying right along side the opened gas tube. Events like this sure take
one's mind off "hanky-panky." Just thought I'd share that event with the
brothers that illustrates what can happen when you lose ram air pressure in the
fuel system.

Dick Barbour
Rogers, AR.





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James Postma <james@...>
 

I don'tknow about you O200 guys but the best deal on the Revmaster is a Facet pump with a pressure regulator set at 1 to 1-1/2 psig.
This was tested on Revmaster's dyno by Joe Horvath. More pressure and the engine choked at WOT. This was with an Ellison carb. The RevFlow carb is similar.
Don't leave home without it.

James Postma
N145EX

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Fortin" <kfortin@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 8:03 PM
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems




Sam and gang,

I have to admit, thinking that I scared the hell out of myself because I
didn't tighten the gas cap properly is a bit annoying but at this point,
this line of thinking is making the most sense. If you or anyone has a way
to test this I would appreciate it.

Also, any opinions on a boost pump to give a bit more margin would be
appreciated.

I still may have some engine problems that I want to get to, but I feel sure
that my excitement was fuel related.

Note....I really don't want to do a repeat performance. I'm sure the tower
would appreciate it too.

Kevin

Kevin,

This phenomena of the low pressure air leaking into the fuel system is well
documented. In fact, that was my first thought when I read your e-mail.
Naturally all the gascolator foes come out of the woodwork, but if you have
a leaky gas cap you will have trouble.

It happened to me, to Art Jewett, and to others. I made a mention of it on
my modifications page: http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/modifications.html

Sam

http://home.mchsi.com/~shoskins/springfling.html







_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Kevin Fortin
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:58 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200 potential cap problems




Paul and gang,

Aside from the engine friction issue, Paul, you may have something here with
the fuel cap. Mine is not vented, but, after the fact, I found that it was
not tightened particularly well. After my "flight" (I use that term loosely
here) I removed it by pulling up on it and only with moderate force. It
definitely could have leaked some "pressurized air" from the forward facing
vent through a less than sealed cap.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that the venturi effect of the air rushing
by the gas cap cover could be enough of a vacuum to overcome the gravity
feed of the system? If this venturi "vacuum" is enough, it absolutely could
be the source of my fuel problem. Let's face it, a pressure "head" of a 1
1/2 feet or so doesn't take too much to overcome.

This "venturi" effect also explains why it would quit so soon after takeoff.

I still have some issues with general engine heating, but that is a separate
problem. I will address that in a bit.

Thanks again to you and everyone. I REALLY want this one fixed before my
next aerial adventure. The challenge of flying is the reason we do it, but
that was a bit extreme.

Kevin



-----Original Message-----
From: Fisher Paul A. [mailto:FisherPaulA@...]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 5:48 AM
To: kfortin@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200

Kevin,
Congratulations on your first flight experience! One other thing that
has not been mentioned so far on the list is improper fuel venting. The
fuel vent typically points into the wind to positively pressurize the
fuel system. People have had the symptoms you described on take off
when they forget to put the fuel cap on because the tank doesn't have
sufficient pressure to keep the carburetor fed.

If you blow in your fuel vent (don't blow too hard!). After a few
seconds you should be able to still feel the pressure. If it all leaks
out, then you have a problem.

There are certainly way smarter people on the list than me on engines,
but personally I think your "friction" issue was a by product of your
problem, not the cause.

Just my $0.02!

Paul A. Fisher
Q-200, N17PF ~1160 hours
Taylor Ridge, Illinois, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf
Of Kevin Fortin
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 22:34
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] N275CH First Flight Q200


Hey guys,



Got N275CH off the ground for the first time and got a few other firsts
as
well:



First engine malfunction



First declared emergency



First time in the dirt (mud)



All this took 60 or so seconds.



The good news is only the airplane and the pilot got muddy.



In a nutshell, I did three fast taxis, felt about as good as you can for
your first shot into the air, then decided to give her a go. I lined up
on the runway, hit the throttle and the takeoff went as much per plan as
I could expect. Then after about 10 seconds and at about 100 feet the
engine acted like it ran out of gas. Oh shit. I put the nose down,
declared emergency, and started heading back to the runway which at this
point was obviously too short for the job at hand. Hoping for a plan B,
I hit the throttle, the engine revved up, then slowed again after a few
seconds.
Seeing a connection there I kept pumping the throttle enough to get her
back in the air and around the pattern for my "first" landing. Let's say
the approach was not textbook but I got her back to the ground without
any bounces or anything I could complain about. I let it roll out for a
bit and then started braking. This is where the adrenaline of the
situation got the better of me. I braked too hard and it started pulling
a bit to the right.
When I realized how hard I was braking I let off of the brake (Johnson
bar) then ka-wam, I was headed for the other side of the runway. Damn, I
was just thinking I was going to pull the stunt off. Except for the
embarrassment, all was OK.



Yesterday, and at this point, I am thinking the engine had gotten hot
enough that fuel was boiling in the carb.



Today, to try to reproduce the problem, I tied the tail down and ran the
engine until the oil temp was 190 F, the previous day's takeoff oil
temp.
This was when I noticed what may the real problem. After shutting down,
when I tried to move the prop, it moved with a lot of friction. I
quickly removed the cowl and the sparkplugs to take away the compression
"resistance" and found the engine was still hard to turn. Not knowing
what to do I figured lunch was in order. When I got back from lunch, and
the engine had cooled and it turned as light as I had known it before.



Any ideas of what might cause this "hot" friction? In any case I bet an
engine teardown is in my future.



Kevin











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