Fuel filler problem and brake seals.


Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

Chris I was told by my original builder to use only ATM fluid as brake fluid will spoil the large O ring seals. I have used this for 15 years with absolutely no effect on the seals and this fluid is kind to paint and non corrosive. The brakes work fine.
Peter
<After the discussions about brake fluid and seals etc a while ago, I looked on the Shell website. I was a bit concerned that the BUNA used by Airheart for the seals has poor compatibility with both types a aircraft fluid (natural and synthetic). Has anyone had a problem with the seals though?

Chris Rayner - still building; still learning....>





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chris rayner <rayners@...>
 

Guys, I found a problem which maybe only affects me, but maybe not. Nearly twenty years ago, the original builder of my Q followed an instruction in the builders manual and "trundled down to the local plumbing store" and bought some PVC pipe which he built in the two filler points.
Jump to present and I have had the fuselage upside down for a few weeks while I work on the underside. There was a little fuel in the tanks and this was sitting around the filler caps. After a while, some drips appeared around the caps, so I tried to tighten them a bit. I found that the PVC had gone very soft and distorted. The epoxy is fine.
Maybe no-one else has used the PVC option, but maybe someone has done and isn't aware there could be a problem. I am replacing the PVC with metal - steel and aluminium.

After the discussions about brake fluid and seals etc a while ago, I looked on the Shell website. I was a bit concerned that the BUNA used by Airheart for the seals has poor compatibility with both types a aircraft fluid (natural and synthetic). Has anyone had a problem with the seals though?

Chris Rayner - still building; still learning....


Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@...>
 

Chris, thanks for the post on the PVC problem. I used PVC between the header tank and the main tank. Upon reading your post I checked mine to find soft spots as well. Thanks for taking the time to note your problem so the rest of us could benefit. What kind of material are you using to replace the PVC?
Jerry Marstall

chris rayner wrote:

Guys, I found a problem which maybe only affects me, but maybe not. Nearly twenty years ago, the original builder of my Q followed an instruction in the builders manual and "trundled down to the local plumbing store" and bought some PVC pipe which he built in the two filler points. Jump to present and I have had the fuselage upside down for a few weeks while I work on the underside. There was a little fuel in the tanks and this was sitting around the filler caps. After a while, some drips appeared around the caps, so I tried to tighten them a bit. I found that the PVC had gone very soft and distorted. The epoxy is fine. Maybe no-one else has used the PVC option, but maybe someone has done and isn't aware there could be a problem. I am replacing the PVC with metal - steel and aluminium.

After the discussions about brake fluid and seals etc a while ago, I looked on the Shell website. I was a bit concerned that the BUNA used by Airheart for the seals has poor compatibility with both types a aircraft fluid (natural and synthetic). Has anyone had a problem with the seals though?

Chris Rayner - still building; still learning....





Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links







Jim Patillo
 

Unsolicited!

Jerry,

I glassed 2"-2 1/2" steel muffler pipe nipples out of the header and
main and coupled between the two with Goodyear Fuel Hose. Has been
working perfectly for 5 years.

Regards,
Jim Patillo

P.S. Sam Kittle has just done this same mod so he can help you for
parts and where to get them.



--- In Q-LIST@..., Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@b...> wrote:
Chris, thanks for the post on the PVC problem. I used PVC between
the
header tank and the main tank. Upon reading your post I checked
mine to
find soft spots as well. Thanks for taking the time to note your
problem so the rest of us could benefit. What kind of material are
you
using to replace the PVC?
Jerry Marstall

chris rayner wrote:

Guys, I found a problem which maybe only affects me, but maybe
not. Nearly twenty years ago, the original builder of my Q followed
an instruction in the builders manual and "trundled down to the local
plumbing store" and bought some PVC pipe which he built in the two
filler points.
Jump to present and I have had the fuselage upside down for a few
weeks while I work on the underside. There was a little fuel in the
tanks and this was sitting around the filler caps. After a while,
some drips appeared around the caps, so I tried to tighten them a
bit. I found that the PVC had gone very soft and distorted. The epoxy
is fine.
Maybe no-one else has used the PVC option, but maybe someone has
done and isn't aware there could be a problem. I am replacing the PVC
with metal - steel and aluminium.

After the discussions about brake fluid and seals etc a while ago,
I looked on the Shell website. I was a bit concerned that the BUNA
used by Airheart for the seals has poor compatibility with both types
a aircraft fluid (natural and synthetic). Has anyone had a problem
with the seals though?

Chris Rayner - still building; still learning....






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links









chris rayner <rayners@...>
 

My solution probably won't help you guys in the US, which is why I didn't post it. I bought from a local scrap yard, the fuel filler pipe (steel) and locking filler cap from a 1994 Leyland Metro - for 2.50. It has the right diameter and a 45 degree angle top - just right for me. I will glass it from the top to the tank, so replace the whole downpipe.

Coincidentally, the same car provides the gas struts for the forward opening canopy, so another 5 bought a good pair of those.

I hate to open the debate about brake fluid again, but is Peter's suggestion of ATM fluid definitive, or are there disadvantages?

Thanks
Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Patillo" <logistics_engineering@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:45 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Fuel filler problem and brake seals.


Unsolicited!

Jerry,

I glassed 2"-2 1/2" steel muffler pipe nipples out of the header and
main and coupled between the two with Goodyear Fuel Hose. Has been
working perfectly for 5 years.

Regards,
Jim Patillo

P.S. Sam Kittle has just done this same mod so he can help you for
parts and where to get them.



--- In Q-LIST@..., Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@b...> wrote:
Chris, thanks for the post on the PVC problem. I used PVC between
the
header tank and the main tank. Upon reading your post I checked
mine to
find soft spots as well. Thanks for taking the time to note your
problem so the rest of us could benefit. What kind of material are
you
using to replace the PVC?
Jerry Marstall

chris rayner wrote:

Guys, I found a problem which maybe only affects me, but maybe
not. Nearly twenty years ago, the original builder of my Q followed
an instruction in the builders manual and "trundled down to the local
plumbing store" and bought some PVC pipe which he built in the two
filler points.
Jump to present and I have had the fuselage upside down for a few
weeks while I work on the underside. There was a little fuel in the
tanks and this was sitting around the filler caps. After a while,
some drips appeared around the caps, so I tried to tighten them a
bit. I found that the PVC had gone very soft and distorted. The epoxy
is fine.
Maybe no-one else has used the PVC option, but maybe someone has
done and isn't aware there could be a problem. I am replacing the PVC
with metal - steel and aluminium.

After the discussions about brake fluid and seals etc a while ago,
I looked on the Shell website. I was a bit concerned that the BUNA
used by Airheart for the seals has poor compatibility with both types
a aircraft fluid (natural and synthetic). Has anyone had a problem
with the seals though?

Chris Rayner - still building; still learning....






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links












Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links








Paul Buckley
 

Hi Chris

Are you talking about the fuselage side filler point and the tube connecting it to the main tank?
You mention two filler points, is that a 'typo?'
I made my tube out of three plies of BID, wrapped round a form (can't remember what I used for a form but was probably a cardboard tube covered with cling film)
It worked well and was easily and reliably bonded to the tank.

Regards

Paul



>> chris rayner wrote:
>>
>> >Guys, I found a problem which maybe only affects me, but maybe
> not. Nearly twenty years ago, the original builder of my Q followed
> an instruction in the builders manual and "trundled down to the local
> plumbing store" and bought some PVC pipe which he built in the two
> filler points.

----------

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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@...>
 

Thanks for the input Jim.
Jerry

Jim Patillo wrote:

Unsolicited!

Jerry,

I glassed 2"-2 1/2" steel muffler pipe nipples out of the header and
main and coupled between the two with Goodyear Fuel Hose. Has been
working perfectly for 5 years.

Regards,
Jim Patillo

P.S. Sam Kittle has just done this same mod so he can help you for
parts and where to get them.



--- In Q-LIST@..., Jerry Marstall <jnmarstall@b...> wrote:


Chris, thanks for the post on the PVC problem. I used PVC between

the


header tank and the main tank. Upon reading your post I checked

mine to


find soft spots as well. Thanks for taking the time to note your
problem so the rest of us could benefit. What kind of material are

you


using to replace the PVC?
Jerry Marstall

chris rayner wrote:



Guys, I found a problem which maybe only affects me, but maybe

not. Nearly twenty years ago, the original builder of my Q followed
an instruction in the builders manual and "trundled down to the local
plumbing store" and bought some PVC pipe which he built in the two
filler points.


Jump to present and I have had the fuselage upside down for a few

weeks while I work on the underside. There was a little fuel in the
tanks and this was sitting around the filler caps. After a while,
some drips appeared around the caps, so I tried to tighten them a
bit. I found that the PVC had gone very soft and distorted. The epoxy
is fine.


Maybe no-one else has used the PVC option, but maybe someone has

done and isn't aware there could be a problem. I am replacing the PVC
with metal - steel and aluminium.


After the discussions about brake fluid and seals etc a while ago,

I looked on the Shell website. I was a bit concerned that the BUNA
used by Airheart for the seals has poor compatibility with both types
a aircraft fluid (natural and synthetic). Has anyone had a problem
with the seals though?


Chris Rayner - still building; still learning....






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links














Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links









Dave Dugas
 

Chris,
Regarding the brake fluid issue, I've used aircraft fluid in mine for 5 years now....no problems. If you go to Airheart's website and click on the master cyl.heading you'll see that they offer either automotive or aircraft setups. Check it out, it's http://www.airheart-brakes.com/index.html. Good luck. Dave Dugas

Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...> wrote:
Chris I was told by my original builder to use only ATM fluid as brake fluid will spoil the large O ring seals. I have used this for 15 years with absolutely no effect on the seals and this fluid is kind to paint and non corrosive. The brakes work fine.
Peter
<After the discussions about brake fluid and seals etc a while ago, I looked on the Shell website. I was a bit concerned that the BUNA used by Airheart for the seals has poor compatibility with both types a aircraft fluid (natural and synthetic). Has anyone had a problem with the seals though?

Chris Rayner - still building; still learning....>





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http://www.quickiebuilders.org






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chris rayner <rayners@...>
 

Paul, the two filler points I mention are the one on the side - to the main tank and the one on the top - to the header. The side one had pvc down pipe; wrapped in BID, with a pvc threaded opening and cap. The header filler had just the threaded parts. It was mainly the threads which lost their strength - went very soft and bendy. The down tube just went a bit soft - not very quantitative, but I think you get the picture. These were soaking in avgas for some weeks, so probably reacted rapidly. But I think the long term effect in vapour would be similar.

Regards
Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Buckley" <paulbuckley@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: Fuel filler problem and brake seals.


Hi Chris

Are you talking about the fuselage side filler point and the tube connecting it to the main tank?
You mention two filler points, is that a 'typo?'
I made my tube out of three plies of BID, wrapped round a form (can't remember what I used for a form but was probably a cardboard tube covered with cling film)
It worked well and was easily and reliably bonded to the tank.

Regards

Paul



>> chris rayner wrote:
>>
>> >Guys, I found a problem which maybe only affects me, but maybe
> not. Nearly twenty years ago, the original builder of my Q followed
> an instruction in the builders manual and "trundled down to the local
> plumbing store" and bought some PVC pipe which he built in the two
> filler points.

----------

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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.3 - Release Date: 03/05/2005






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
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Larry Severson
 

At 04:28 PM 5/6/2005 +0100, you wrote:
Paul, the two filler points I mention are the one on the side - to the main
tank and the one on the top - to the header. The side one had pvc down pipe;
wrapped in BID
My Q2 has a single header fill point with an overflow to the main tank. It
is simplicity in construction and prevents overfilling the header. Its main
problem is that the header can't be full unless the main tank is.


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Paul Buckley
 

Larry

So you must be feeding the engine from the main tank with the header 'overflow' taken from the bottom of the header tank, linking the two together.
If you put a standpipe in to act as an overflow, as per plans, you would solve the problem, but then you would have to feed from the header, unless you fitted a selector valve rather than a transfer pump.
But why do you say it is a problem 'as is'......does it matter that the header can only be full if the main is? Do you have a problem with an aft C of G?
Your system is simple, just what we try to achieve.

Paul Buckley
Cheshire, England.

----- Original Message -----
From: larry severson
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: Fuel filler problem and brake seals.


At 04:28 PM 5/6/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>Paul, the two filler points I mention are the one on the side - to the main
>tank and the one on the top - to the header. The side one had pvc down pipe;
>wrapped in BID

My Q2 has a single header fill point with an overflow to the main tank. It
is simplicity in construction and prevents overfilling the header. Its main
problem is that the header can't be full unless the main tank is.


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...





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Jim Patillo
 

Larry
The way to cure the problem you describe is to install a flush mount
filler in the top of the header with a steel or aluminum (grounded)
2- 2 1/2" tube just below the header opening. That way you can fill
the header and main at the same time from the same opening. This
makes filling both tanks very fast and you know exactly how much
fuel is in the header and main simply by looking in the hole. I can
fill my tanks in half the time it takes to fill the conventional
setup. Sam Kittle has just finished this mod and can elaborate if
any one is interested.

The only kicker is the header we have is different than standard! If
you are building and at this stage you may want to look into this
option. I have 5 years and almost 600 hours on this mod and it works
well.

Jim P.


--- In Q-LIST@..., larry severson <larry2@s...> wrote:
At 04:28 PM 5/6/2005 +0100, you wrote:
Paul, the two filler points I mention are the one on the side -
to the main
tank and the one on the top - to the header. The side one had pvc
down pipe;
wrapped in BID
My Q2 has a single header fill point with an overflow to the main
tank. It
is simplicity in construction and prevents overfilling the header.
Its main
problem is that the header can't be full unless the main tank is.


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@s...


Larry Severson
 

So you must be feeding the engine from the main tank
no

with the header 'overflow' taken from the bottom of the header tank
no, top

, linking the two together.
If you put a standpipe in to act as an overflow, as per plans,
it is.

you would solve the problem, but then you would have to feed from the header,
It does.

But why do you say it is a problem 'as is'......does it matter that the
header can only be full if the main is? Do you have a problem with an aft
C of G?
Under no conditions of fuel or passenger + legal baggage does the plane get
out of CG.

Your system is simple, just what we try to achieve.
yep


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Larry Severson
 

The way to cure the problem you describe is to install a flush mount
filler in the top of the header with a steel or aluminum (grounded)
2- 2 1/2" tube just below the header opening.
Exactly what I have.

That way you can fill
the header and main at the same time from the same opening. This
makes filling both tanks very fast and you know exactly how much
fuel is in the header and main simply by looking in the hole.
I can tell the header, but I need my fuel gage to tell the main.

I can
fill my tanks in half the time it takes to fill the conventional
setup.
yes

Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

Larry that does not work either. That is a fix that was put in to keep the vent open in case a bug gets in the opening. It actually reduces the ram pressure by bleeding air . It just alters the airspeed at which ram pressure = weight of fuel caught in the vent. I had that mod when the Revmaster was almost stopped by fuel in the vent.
A short up facing vent is self clearing.
Peter

<> * 5. I just found a solution for the potential of trapping fuel in the
vent - drill a very small hole at the back of where the vent turns forward.
Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708>
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...





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Paul Buckley
 

Larry

You are a man of (too) few words.
I still do not understand your fuel system or your 'problem'.

Paul Buckley

----- Original Message -----
From: larry severson
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: Fuel filler problem and brake seals.



>So you must be feeding the engine from the main tank

no

> with the header 'overflow' taken from the bottom of the header tank

no, top

>, linking the two together.
>If you put a standpipe in to act as an overflow, as per plans,

it is.

>you would solve the problem, but then you would have to feed from the header,

It does.

>But why do you say it is a problem 'as is'......does it matter that the
>header can only be full if the main is? Do you have a problem with an aft
>C of G?

Under no conditions of fuel or passenger + legal baggage does the plane get
out of CG.

>Your system is simple, just what we try to achieve.

yep


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...





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Larry Severson
 

You are a man of (too) few words.
I still do not understand your fuel system or your 'problem'.
* 1. I have a fuel cap in the header tank.
* 2. There is a 2" PVC pipe starting 2.5" below the cap that goes down
and back to the main tank.
* 3. There is a tank vent at the rear of the header tank that goes
down and forward.
* 4. Until the main tank is filled, the last 2.5" of header tank can
not be filled.
* 5. I just found a solution for the potential of trapping fuel in the
vent - drill a very small hole at the back of where the vent turns forward.
Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Paul Buckley
 

Ah, now I get it.
Originally I thought you meant that the header was essentially empty unless the main was full.
Thanks for the clarification, Larry.

Paul Buckley
Cheshire, England.
TriQ-200
Still building................................

----- Original Message -----
From: larry severson
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: Fuel filler problem and brake seals.



>You are a man of (too) few words.
>I still do not understand your fuel system or your 'problem'.
> * 1. I have a fuel cap in the header tank.
> * 2. There is a 2" PVC pipe starting 2.5" below the cap that goes down
> and back to the main tank.
> * 3. There is a tank vent at the rear of the header tank that goes
> down and forward.
> * 4. Until the main tank is filled, the last 2.5" of header tank can
> not be filled.
> * 5. I just found a solution for the potential of trapping fuel in the
> vent - drill a very small hole at the back of where the vent turns forward.

Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...





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http://www.quickiebuilders.org





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