Elevator and Aileron Bushings


MartinErni@...
 

In a message dated 12/26/2005 1:44:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
logistics_engineering@... writes:

Has anyone determined if the bushing is at fault or is it the AN3
pivot point that is wearing, ot both? If so what did you do to fix
it? If it was the steel bushing, what is the new part number to
replace it? Did it solve the problem?



Jim,
I replaced mine with oilite bearings of the same profile from A/S and
they took out the play. The original bearing was alum and the pivot was steel.
Earnest


Jim Patillo
 

Guys,

I've brought this subject up before but this time I intend to fix it.

I'm doing my condition inspection now and found the elevators and
ailerons have a lot of play at the outside hinge points. You can push
up and down and definitely feel play. I further inspected the other
Q's on the field and found they all have almost the same amount of
play.

Has anyone determined if the bushing is at fault or is it the AN3
pivot point that is wearing, ot both? If so what did you do to fix
it? If it was the steel bushing, what is the new part number to
replace it? Did it solve the problem?

Should people now building consider a better solution? Seems to me
that steel on steel is not the answer!

Regards,

JP

P.S. I tried a cell phone with the new Thirty 3G's and it works
perfectly. Very clear on transmission and reception.


Dave Dugas
 

Jim,
My outboard elevator pivots were actually loose, probably due to a bit of corrossion causing them to turn and eventually loosen. The whole stud was moving around. I removed the elevators and tightened the lock nut that was exposed. You may have to hold the pivot with pliers if it wants to turn when tightening the nut. It also could have been caused by the plywood shrinking up a bit over the years. I also used a thicker grease before I reassembled, hoping that it would keep working longer. My center bushings and hinge pin were fine, and I greased them too. Dave Dugas

Jim Patillo <logistics_engineering@...> wrote:
Guys,

I've brought this subject up before but this time I intend to fix it.

I'm doing my condition inspection now and found the elevators and
ailerons have a lot of play at the outside hinge points. You can push
up and down and definitely feel play. I further inspected the other
Q's on the field and found they all have almost the same amount of
play.

Has anyone determined if the bushing is at fault or is it the AN3
pivot point that is wearing, ot both? If so what did you do to fix
it? If it was the steel bushing, what is the new part number to
replace it? Did it solve the problem?

Should people now building consider a better solution? Seems to me
that steel on steel is not the answer!

Regards,

JP

P.S. I tried a cell phone with the new Thirty 3G's and it works
perfectly. Very clear on transmission and reception.





Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org





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French <LJFrench@...>
 

Jim,
When inspecting mine a couple years ago, I noticed that corrosion was a problem on some of them. It causes wear to increase, but in one case it caused the bushing to bind on the pivot pin causing the bushing to turn in the torque tube.
I machined some long bushings out of oilite bronze to increase the wear surface and hopefuly avoid any wear on the pivot pin. Did all the outboard bushings and the top rudder bushing as well. Have not had any problems for two years now.
LF

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Dugas" <davedq2@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Elevator and Aileron Bushings


Jim,
My outboard elevator pivots were actually loose, probably due to a bit of corrossion causing them to turn and eventually loosen. The whole stud was moving around. I removed the elevators and tightened the lock nut that was exposed. You may have to hold the pivot with pliers if it wants to turn when tightening the nut. It also could have been caused by the plywood shrinking up a bit over the years. I also used a thicker grease before I reassembled, hoping that it would keep working longer. My center bushings and hinge pin were fine, and I greased them too. Dave Dugas

Jim Patillo <logistics_engineering@...> wrote:
Guys,

I've brought this subject up before but this time I intend to fix it.

I'm doing my condition inspection now and found the elevators and
ailerons have a lot of play at the outside hinge points. You can push
up and down and definitely feel play. I further inspected the other
Q's on the field and found they all have almost the same amount of
play.

Has anyone determined if the bushing is at fault or is it the AN3
pivot point that is wearing, ot both? If so what did you do to fix
it? If it was the steel bushing, what is the new part number to
replace it? Did it solve the problem?

Should people now building consider a better solution? Seems to me
that steel on steel is not the answer!

Regards,

JP

P.S. I tried a cell phone with the new Thirty 3G's and it works
perfectly. Very clear on transmission and reception.



Jim Patillo
 

Earnest,

I looked in the Aircraft Spruce catalog. Do you recall the model
number of the bushing?

JP
--- In Q-LIST@..., MartinErni@a... wrote:


In a message dated 12/26/2005 1:44:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
logistics_engineering@m... writes:

Has anyone determined if the bushing is at fault or is it the AN3
pivot point that is wearing, ot both? If so what did you do to fix
it? If it was the steel bushing, what is the new part number to
replace it? Did it solve the problem?



Jim,
I replaced mine with oilite bearings of the same profile from
A/S and
they took out the play. The original bearing was alum and the
pivot was steel.
Earnest


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


MartinErni@...
 

Jim,
Look on page 83. I think I used FB46-02 and FF303-01. It's been a while
but I may have had to drill larger holes.
Earnest


MartinErni@...
 

Jim,
They are bronze. Seems like I did drill the receptacle for them but
can't remember for sure. I checked the plans and you are correct they are all
1/4.. I looked for an invoice to double check but could not find one.
Earnest


MartinErni@...
 

Thanks for the info Bob.
Earnest


MartinErni@...
 

In a message dated 12/27/2005 1:27:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
bfarnam@... writes:

Oilite bronze is not the right application. Oilite is porous,
with oil in the spaces between bronze particles


How is oilite likely to fail? (fracture-wear-seize)


Jim Patillo
 

Thanks,

Did you have to drill out or cut down anything?
JP


--- In Q-LIST@..., MartinErni@a... wrote:

Jim,
Look on page 83. I think I used FB46-02 and FF303-01. It's been
a while
but I may have had to drill larger holes.
Earnest


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Jim Patillo
 

Earnest,

Are those bushings steel, aluminum or bronze,oilite? Do we use two
differenet sizes on the elevator and aileron, I thought they were all
the same size?

Thanks again JP

--- In Q-LIST@..., MartinErni@a... wrote:

Jim,
Look on page 83. I think I used FB46-02 and FF303-01. It's been
a while
but I may have had to drill larger holes.
Earnest




Bob Farnam <bfarnam@...>
 

A few points about bushings in general. The original bushings, at least in
my airplane, are aluminum, running on a steel (AN3 or AN4) shaft. Aluminum
on steel is a good bushing, as long as it's lubricated. Honda has used such
a bushing arrangement in their motorcycle camshafts. The softer aluminum is
sacrificial, though if lubricated, it lasts a long time. Solid bronze also
works, but Oilite bronze is not the right application. Oilite is porous,
with oil in the spaces between bronze particles. They are designed for
relatively high speed continuous rotation, where the heat causes the oil to
sweat out and the rotation provides pumping to provide a pressurized surface
to float the shaft. It doesn't work that way for slow reciprocating motion
like in control surfaces. Bushings depend upon clearance from 0.001 MINIMUM
to about 0.004 to allow distribution of the lubricant. Measure the play in
your bushings with a dial indicator to see if it more than 0.004 inch. If
it's less than that, don't worry about it. Ideally, the shaft should be
harder than the AN bolts, but the loads are relatively low. Corrosion
resistance is provided by lubrication in our applications. If you want more
resistance, chrome plate or nickel plate the shaft. Also, making overly long
bushings is not recommended, mostly because of alignment problems in a long
rigidly mounted bushing. Bushings are typically no longer than the diameter
of the shaft - occasionally as much as 1.5 x the diameter. Do not use steel
on steel, as it leads to galling and possible seizing. Clearance which is
too small or lack of lubrication will lead to seizing also. Bottom line, I
think the original bushings are properly designed, but have to be kept
lubricated. If you don't want to lubricate, consider using bushings which
are used in agricultural machinery. They are usually plastic lined and self
lubricating.

My 2 cents.

Bob F.
N200QK
EAA Flight Advisor

ALso 45 years experience as a Mech. Engineer and PE, most in machine design.

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]On Behalf Of
Jim Patillo
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 10:41 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Elevator and Aileron Bushings


Guys,

I've brought this subject up before but this time I intend to fix it.

I'm doing my condition inspection now and found the elevators and
ailerons have a lot of play at the outside hinge points. You can push
up and down and definitely feel play. I further inspected the other
Q's on the field and found they all have almost the same amount of
play.

Has anyone determined if the bushing is at fault or is it the AN3
pivot point that is wearing, ot both? If so what did you do to fix
it? If it was the steel bushing, what is the new part number to
replace it? Did it solve the problem?

Should people now building consider a better solution? Seems to me
that steel on steel is not the answer!

Regards,

JP

P.S. I tried a cell phone with the new Thirty 3G's and it works
perfectly. Very clear on transmission and reception.





Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org





SPONSORED LINKS Aviation maintenance Aviation maintenance training
Aviation maintenance schools
Aviation maintenance schools Aviation Aviation art


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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damiantwinsport@...
 

Jim, thanks for bring that up .Steel on steel is no Bueno! An Amco 45 bushing would be better or St. Gobain makes some very unique and Low Friction co effeceint linear bearings/ bushings.

Regards,
Damian Gregory N8427 Q200

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Patillo <logistics_engineering@...>
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:41:27 -0000
Subject: [Q-LIST] Elevator and Aileron Bushings


Guys,

I've brought this subject up before but this time I intend to fix it.

I'm doing my condition inspection now and found the elevators and
ailerons have a lot of play at the outside hinge points. You can push
up and down and definitely feel play. I further inspected the other
Q's on the field and found they all have almost the same amount of
play.

Has anyone determined if the bushing is at fault or is it the AN3
pivot point that is wearing, ot both? If so what did you do to fix
it? If it was the steel bushing, what is the new part number to
replace it? Did it solve the problem?

Should people now building consider a better solution? Seems to me
that steel on steel is not the answer!

Regards,

JP

P.S. I tried a cell phone with the new Thirty 3G's and it works
perfectly. Very clear on transmission and reception.






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links


Jay R. Scheevel <scheevel@...>
 

Bob F, Thanks for your 2 cents. I have an additional question, since I
have not yet installed my outboard bushings. Do you think it would be
wise to go with a sealed bearing instead, or would that invite
corrosion?

Jay Scheevel -- Tri-Q, still building


Ron <rondefly@...>
 

Jay, I think Bob will come up with the right answer with the knowledge from
the business he is in, However, my two cents tells me I think you have a
good idea, Just think of all the sealed auto/ etc. bearings there are out
there in everyday service. I think something sealed would be much better
than the original setup but will wait to see what Bob will say. Either way,
I am not going to change another thing on mine unless it is an emergency. I
really want to get this thing flying. Getting so close I can taste it.



Ron Triano



_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Jay R. Scheevel
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 2:05 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] RE: Elevator and Aileron Bushings



Bob F, Thanks for your 2 cents. I have an additional question, since I
have not yet installed my outboard bushings. Do you think it would be
wise to go with a sealed bearing instead, or would that invite
corrosion?

Jay Scheevel -- Tri-Q, still building



Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org






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French <LJFrench@...>
 

I posted a photo on the Yahoo site called Pivot bushings at http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/q-list/vwp?.dir=/&.src=gr&.dnm=Pivot+bushings.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/q-list/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=gr%26.view=t
Sorry for the poor quality. I went to the hanger and pulled out the drawer that had the original issue bushings that are with the 2nd kit that I am building. These bushings are hanging from my telescopic magnet - which means they have something ferrous in them. Also, some of the old bushings from my flying Q are also included. All show some signs of corrosion - some of them very bad. They appear to be plated with something because they are silver in color - not bare steel or painted. Past Q-Talk articles also confirm this issue.
My second kit will have the same bushings I put in N142LF which look similar to what Earnest pointed out in ACS - which are bronze.

LF

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Patillo" <logistics_engineering@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 10:11 AM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Elevator and Aileron Bushings


Earnest,

Are those bushings steel, aluminum or bronze,oilite? Do we use two
differenet sizes on the elevator and aileron, I thought they were all
the same size?

Thanks again JP

--- In Q-LIST@..., MartinErni@a... wrote:

Jim,
Look on page 83. I think I used FB46-02 and FF303-01. It's been
a while
but I may have had to drill larger holes.
Earnest








Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links








Bob Farnam <bfarnam@...>
 

Earnest,

Probably won't fail any faster than plain bronze, but the advantages of
Oilite in continuous rotation won't show up in this application. In the
continuous rotation application, Oilite can help hold and supply oil and the
rotation builds a pressurized oil film which supports the shaft and mostly
eliminates metal to metal contact. Oilite bearings are vacuum impregnated
with oil which is supplied to the surface primarily thru capillary action.
The problem is that very low speeds of the shaft permit metal to metal
contact which results in wear just like plain bronze or aluminum, which is
the likely method of failure. Fracture (if properly supported) is unlikely,
and seizing is unlikely unless there is shaft heating or insufficient
running clearance. I didn't mean to say that Oilite is bad, only that in
this application, it probably doesn't have the advantage. There are many
types of Oilite. If you want to use it, you might look at one of the leaded
Oilite materials. Another good choice, I think, would be to use one of the
newer bushings which incorporate Teflon. What happens is that on the first
few rotations, teflon transfers from the bushing to fill in the microscopic
roughness of the shaft. After that, wear is generally quite low and the
bearings are pretty much self lubricated. If I were building now, I would
look hard at that approach.

To Jay's question about sealed (ball bearings?), OK if you can fit them, but
probably not as good as bushings for this application. Be aware, though,
that even though the friction is lower, they will have a much lower load
rating, and unless there is enough rotation to allow the balls to pick up
new lubricant, they are worse. Vibration without rotation can cause
brinelling, which is the generation of small indentations in the bearing
tracks. Some people will use needle bearings instead of balls, since their
smaller diameter means that a smaller angle of rotation will keep them
lubricated. Bushings are really the best because of relatively high load
capacity, ability to withstand shock, freedom from brinelling, small OD, and
low enough friction for control surfaces.

Hope this helps.

Bob F.
N200QK
EAA Flight Advisor

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]On Behalf Of
MartinErni@...
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 10:36 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Elevator and Aileron Bushings



In a message dated 12/27/2005 1:27:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
bfarnam@... writes:

Oilite bronze is not the right application. Oilite is porous,
with oil in the spaces between bronze particles


How is oilite likely to fail? (fracture-wear-seize)






Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org





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raoborg@...
 

Hi Bob. Since I am doing the ailerons I would be interested in the teflon version of the bushing. Where can I find them? Tks Raoul

--- "Bob Farnam" <bfarnam@...> wrote:

From: "Bob Farnam" <bfarnam@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:33:04 -0800
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Elevator and Aileron Bushings
Earnest,
Probably won't fail any faster than plain bronze, but the
advantages of
Oilite in continuous rotation won't show up in this
application. In the
continuous rotation application, Oilite can help hold and
supply oil and the
rotation builds a pressurized oil film which supports the shaft
and mostly
eliminates metal to metal contact. Oilite bearings are vacuum
impregnated
with oil which is supplied to the surface primarily thru
capillary action.
The problem is that very low speeds of the shaft permit metal
to metal
contact which results in wear just like plain bronze or
aluminum, which is
the likely method of failure. Fracture (if properly supported)
is unlikely,
and seizing is unlikely unless there is shaft heating or
insufficient
running clearance. I didn't mean to say that Oilite is bad,
only that in
this application, it probably doesn't have the advantage. There
are many
types of Oilite. If you want to use it, you might look at one
of the leaded
Oilite materials. Another good choice, I think, would be to use
one of the
newer bushings which incorporate Teflon. What happens is that
on the first
few rotations, teflon transfers from the bushing to fill in the
microscopic
roughness of the shaft. After that, wear is generally quite
low and the
bearings are pretty much self lubricated. If I were building
now, I would
look hard at that approach.
To Jay's question about sealed (ball bearings?), OK if you can
fit them, but
probably not as good as bushings for this application. Be
aware, though,
that even though the friction is lower, they will have a much
lower load
rating, and unless there is enough rotation to allow the balls
to pick up
new lubricant, they are worse. Vibration without rotation can
cause
brinelling, which is the generation of small indentations in
the bearing
tracks. Some people will use needle bearings instead of balls,
since their
smaller diameter means that a smaller angle of rotation will
keep them
lubricated. Bushings are really the best because of relatively
high load
capacity, ability to withstand shock, freedom from brinelling,
small OD, and
low enough friction for control surfaces.
Hope this helps.
Bob F.
N200QK
EAA Flight Advisor

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@...
[mailto:Q-LIST@...]On Behalf Of
MartinErni@...
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 10:36 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Elevator and Aileron Bushings
In a message dated 12/27/2005 1:27:00 P.M. Eastern Standard
Time,
bfarnam@... writes:
Oilite bronze is not the right application. Oilite is
porous,
with oil in the spaces between bronze particles
How is oilite likely to fail? (fracture-wear-seize)

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org
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Jim Patillo
 

As I said earlier, I've checked all the Quickies around this airport,
including Farnams' and they all have a fair to good amount of play,
depending on hours of usage. Has any one flown with the Teflon
bushings Farnam is suggesting we use? If so what has been your
results.

JP


--- In Q-LIST@..., "Bob Farnam" <bfarnam@p...> wrote:


Earnest,

Probably won't fail any faster than plain bronze, but the
advantages of
Oilite in continuous rotation won't show up in this application. In
the
continuous rotation application, Oilite can help hold and supply
oil and the
rotation builds a pressurized oil film which supports the shaft and
mostly
eliminates metal to metal contact. Oilite bearings are vacuum
impregnated
with oil which is supplied to the surface primarily thru capillary
action.
The problem is that very low speeds of the shaft permit metal to
metal
contact which results in wear just like plain bronze or aluminum,
which is
the likely method of failure. Fracture (if properly supported) is
unlikely,
and seizing is unlikely unless there is shaft heating or
insufficient
running clearance. I didn't mean to say that Oilite is bad, only
that in
this application, it probably doesn't have the advantage. There are
many
types of Oilite. If you want to use it, you might look at one of
the leaded
Oilite materials. Another good choice, I think, would be to use one
of the
newer bushings which incorporate Teflon. What happens is that on
the first
few rotations, teflon transfers from the bushing to fill in the
microscopic
roughness of the shaft. After that, wear is generally quite low
and the
bearings are pretty much self lubricated. If I were building now, I
would
look hard at that approach.

To Jay's question about sealed (ball bearings?), OK if you can fit
them, but
probably not as good as bushings for this application. Be aware,
though,
that even though the friction is lower, they will have a much lower
load
rating, and unless there is enough rotation to allow the balls to
pick up
new lubricant, they are worse. Vibration without rotation can cause
brinelling, which is the generation of small indentations in the
bearing
tracks. Some people will use needle bearings instead of balls,
since their
smaller diameter means that a smaller angle of rotation will keep
them
lubricated. Bushings are really the best because of relatively high
load
capacity, ability to withstand shock, freedom from brinelling,
small OD, and
low enough friction for control surfaces.

Hope this helps.

Bob F.
N200QK
EAA Flight Advisor

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]On
Behalf Of
MartinErni@a...
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 10:36 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Elevator and Aileron Bushings



In a message dated 12/27/2005 1:27:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
bfarnam@p... writes:

Oilite bronze is not the right application. Oilite is porous,
with oil in the spaces between bronze particles


How is oilite likely to fail? (fracture-wear-seize)






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damiantwinsport@...
 

St. Gobain has a variety of suitable bushing materials. Some advanced high hour matrials aretorlon with spots of CF for load bearing( no pun intended)

Regards,
Damian Gregory N8427 Q200

-----Original Message-----
From: raoborg@...
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:02:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Elevator and Aileron Bushings


Hi Bob. Since I am doing the ailerons I would be interested in the teflon
version of the bushing. Where can I find them? Tks Raoul

--- "Bob Farnam" <bfarnam@...> wrote:

From: "Bob Farnam" <bfarnam@...>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 17:33:04 -0800
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Elevator and Aileron Bushings
Earnest,
Probably won't fail any faster than plain bronze, but the
advantages of
Oilite in continuous rotation won't show up in this
application. In the
continuous rotation application, Oilite can help hold and
supply oil and the
rotation builds a pressurized oil film which supports the shaft
and mostly
eliminates metal to metal contact. Oilite bearings are vacuum
impregnated
with oil which is supplied to the surface primarily thru
capillary action.
The problem is that very low speeds of the shaft permit metal
to metal
contact which results in wear just like plain bronze or
aluminum, which is
the likely method of failure. Fracture (if properly supported)
is unlikely,
and seizing is unlikely unless there is shaft heating or
insufficient
running clearance. I didn't mean to say that Oilite is bad,
only that in
this application, it probably doesn't have the advantage. There
are many
types of Oilite. If you want to use it, you might look at one
of the leaded
Oilite materials. Another good choice, I think, would be to use
one of the
newer bushings which incorporate Teflon. What happens is that
on the first
few rotations, teflon transfers from the bushing to fill in the
microscopic
roughness of the shaft. After that, wear is generally quite
low and the
bearings are pretty much self lubricated. If I were building
now, I would
look hard at that approach.
To Jay's question about sealed (ball bearings?), OK if you can
fit them, but
probably not as good as bushings for this application. Be
aware, though,
that even though the friction is lower, they will have a much
lower load
rating, and unless there is enough rotation to allow the balls
to pick up
new lubricant, they are worse. Vibration without rotation can
cause
brinelling, which is the generation of small indentations in
the bearing
tracks. Some people will use needle bearings instead of balls,
since their
smaller diameter means that a smaller angle of rotation will
keep them
lubricated. Bushings are really the best because of relatively
high load
capacity, ability to withstand shock, freedom from brinelling,
small OD, and
low enough friction for control surfaces.
Hope this helps.
Bob F.
N200QK
EAA Flight Advisor
-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@...
[mailto:Q-LIST@...]On Behalf Of
MartinErni@...
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 10:36 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Elevator and Aileron Bushings
In a message dated 12/27/2005 1:27:00 P.M. Eastern Standard
Time,
bfarnam@... writes:
Oilite bronze is not the right application. Oilite is
porous,
with oil in the spaces between bronze particles
How is oilite likely to fail? (fracture-wear-seize)

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org
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