Wes,
The kit spinner was kevlar and is much tougher than alum. It does need a
front bulkhead. Is that what you have or is it really fiberglass?
Earnest

Hi -

For my Q200 I have a fibreglas spinner and bulkhead that I've decided
to replace with aluminum (spinner, rear bulkhead and probably front
bulkhead), most likely the Aircraft Spruce one mentioned by Sam Hoskins in

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/message/19334

i.e.,

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sn4.php

If someone knows of a better (more timely?) alternative, let me know.
(I considered getting the rear bulkhead and buying or making the
front bulkhead and sticking with the fibreglas spinner, but I'm
guessing I'd save at most a pound for the trouble.)

Thanks -
Wes

I think balance is a big factor but not so easy to balance the cone.
Peter

Wes,
The rear bulkhead is kevlar also and I have never heard of one failing.
Kevlar is tough as nails and will not crack. The biggest problem is cutting
it. It takes very, very sharp tools. An easy way to make a front bulkhead is
to make a sandwich of thin but dense foam with a layer of bid on each side.
Then cut out a hole in the center that is the exact size of your prop crush
plate. It has to fit tight and does not go under the plate, just fits around it.
Then cut the outside diameter of the sandwich the same size as the spinner
inside diameter at the crush plate location. This cut should be beveled to fit
snuggly inside the spinner. When the spinner is installed the prop and crush
plate hold the front bulkhead in one direction and the spinner holds it in
the other. This way the front of the spinner can't move in any direction as
long as you keep it a tight fit. Jerry Marstall used this method very
successfully on his Q2. I would consider putting a flox closeout where the foam is
exposed.
Earnest

Wes,

You DO need to install a front bulkhead for your spinner. Talk to
Brad Olsen about what happens when you don't. He didn't have one and
his rear bulkhead failed (around the bolt pattern) on our way back
from Oshkosh, leaving the spinner flopping around on his new prop.
Fortunately I saw it just as we landed in Rapid City, SD. A couple
more minutes and it would have failed and could have taken off the
prop as it was already cutting into it.

Jim Patillo N46JP Q200

P.S. All of the issues you keep asking about have been done and are
readily solvable. Just look at the beautiful example next you and
copy it! A no brainer. Remember there are more Q200's on your field
than anywhere else on the earth.

--- In Q-LIST@..., "wesisberg" <wes@c...> wrote:

Hi -

For my Q200 I have a fibreglas spinner and bulkhead that I've

decided

to replace with aluminum (spinner, rear bulkhead and probably front
bulkhead), most likely the Aircraft Spruce one mentioned by Sam

Hoskins in

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/message/19334

i.e.,

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sn4.php

If someone knows of a better (more timely?) alternative, let me

know.

(I considered getting the rear bulkhead and buying or making the
front bulkhead and sticking with the fibreglas spinner, but I'm
guessing I'd save at most a pound for the trouble.)

Thanks -
Wes

Hi Jim -

Mainly I was hoping to hear of bulkheads I could get faster.

I did talk with Brad and did plan the front bulkhead (make or buy).
I try to do the research before posting so as not to waste people's
time, but also I'd like to hear any objections in case I left
something out (e.g., perhaps I should keep the *kevlar* spinner but
use the SN-4 bulkheads, or buy the rear and make the front...).
I have about 100 items on my todo list for 57RM, and I'm trying not
to ask too much of you, Bob, Dave, et al. And if I did try to copy
the beautiful machine next to mine, it would be more like 1000
todo items! Yours does give me something to aim for - after 57RM is
flying again.

Thanks -
Wes

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Jim Patillo"
<logistics_engineering@m...> wrote:

Wes,

You DO need to install a front bulkhead for your spinner. Talk to
Brad Olsen about what happens when you don't. He didn't have one and
his rear bulkhead failed (around the bolt pattern) on our way back
from Oshkosh, leaving the spinner flopping around on his new prop.
Fortunately I saw it just as we landed in Rapid City, SD. A couple
more minutes and it would have failed and could have taken off the
prop as it was already cutting into it.

Jim Patillo N46JP Q200

P.S. All of the issues you keep asking about have been done and are
readily solvable. Just look at the beautiful example next you and
copy it! A no brainer. Remember there are more Q200's on your field
than anywhere else on the earth.

--- In Q-LIST@..., "wesisberg" <wes@c...> wrote:

Hi -

For my Q200 I have a fibreglas spinner and bulkhead that I've

decided

to replace with aluminum (spinner, rear bulkhead and probably front
bulkhead), most likely the Aircraft Spruce one mentioned by Sam

Hoskins in

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/message/19334

i.e.,

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sn4.php

If someone knows of a better (more timely?) alternative, let me

know.

(I considered getting the rear bulkhead and buying or making the
front bulkhead and sticking with the fibreglas spinner, but I'm
guessing I'd save at most a pound for the trouble.)

Thanks -
Wes

Earnest,

The kit spinner is kevlar? I'll verify mine is, and try to keep it if
so.

Is the kit rear bulkhead kevlar? I've been assuming I should replace
it with aluminum. I'll check that. As I hear it, the risk with
composite bulkheads is that the material clamped under the bolts gets
hot and soft, allowing the prop bolts to loosen, which makes more
fretting/friction, leading to failure. (Are they also just more
brittle/susceptible to cracking?) The aerocomposite (?) bulkheads
report special multi-point bosses to avoid fretting; I'm not sure
exactly what that means or whether it works, or whether it applies to
the kit bulkhead (assuming ftm that's what I have). There are other
FAA-certified composite bulkheads, so I'd expect there's some way to
do them right.

I'll certainly add a front bulkhead. Bob F. has told me how to make
one from aluminum.

Thanks -
Wes


--- In Q-LIST@..., MartinErni@a... wrote:

Wes,
The kit spinner was kevlar and is much tougher than alum. It

does need a

front bulkhead. Is that what you have or is it really fiberglass?
Earnest


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wes, I installed the SN-4 a few years ago. I ordered the front bulkhead but my prop hub was too thick for it so I put the front bulkhead on the lathe and turned it down to the right size. This removed the nice flange that rests against the inside of the spinner so I got some small gauge nylon tubing, slit it down one side and pressed it over the edge of the front bulkhead disc all the way round. It makes a good fit with the inside of the spinner. You can use tubing with different wall thicknesses to adjust the fit. It has held up well so far.

I also have an unused, uncut, white 10" UHS fiberglass spinner (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/uhs.php). It has a front bulkhead only (spinner is attached to front bulkhead) and is suitable for prop hubs less than 3.25" thick. It would work fine on a Q2 but my prop hub was too thick. If anyone wants it let me know.

Dave Chalmers
TriQ200 N4016G 250hrs
Redmond WA

In my experience Kevlar is very difficult to make clean non-fuzzy cuts. I
would recommend the aluminum spinner with the aluminum back plate.

Spruce has a limited number of front plates available. As already
mentioned, the geometry of the front plate is dependent on the prop
thickness.

There is a very long lead-time (months) ordering spinners and back plates
from Spruce and they don't always fit perfectly. It might not hurt to order
two back plates and keep one as a spare. Each one is custom made, since
they drill the bolt pattern. The O-200 uses the SAE 1 pattern with 5/8"
bushings.

I tried the plastic tubing method for the front plant and it failed on me,
so I fabricated my own front plate using Kevlar. Carbon fiber probably
would have been a better choice. I installed nut plates and use four screws
to attach the spinner to the front plate.

I have probably installed six spinners in the last 20 years. For me, it's a
real pain in the rear and gut wrenching experience. Overall, I am very
dissatisfied with the ACS product support and customer service. If there
was a suitable off-the-shelf composite spinner supplier I would sure like to
meet them.

Sam Hoskins

Murphysboro, IL





_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
wesisberg
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:30 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: aluminum spinner - ACS SN-4?



Hi Jim -

Mainly I was hoping to hear of bulkheads I could get faster.

I did talk with Brad and did plan the front bulkhead (make or buy).
I try to do the research before posting so as not to waste people's
time, but also I'd like to hear any objections in case I left
something out (e.g., perhaps I should keep the *kevlar* spinner but
use the SN-4 bulkheads, or buy the rear and make the front...).
I have about 100 items on my todo list for 57RM, and I'm trying not
to ask too much of you, Bob, Dave, et al. And if I did try to copy
the beautiful machine next to mine, it would be more like 1000
todo items! Yours does give me something to aim for - after 57RM is
flying again.

Thanks -
Wes

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Jim Patillo"
<logistics_engineering@m...> wrote:

Wes,

You DO need to install a front bulkhead for your spinner. Talk to
Brad Olsen about what happens when you don't. He didn't have one and
his rear bulkhead failed (around the bolt pattern) on our way back
from Oshkosh, leaving the spinner flopping around on his new prop.
Fortunately I saw it just as we landed in Rapid City, SD. A couple
more minutes and it would have failed and could have taken off the
prop as it was already cutting into it.

Jim Patillo N46JP Q200

P.S. All of the issues you keep asking about have been done and are
readily solvable. Just look at the beautiful example next you and
copy it! A no brainer. Remember there are more Q200's on your field
than anywhere else on the earth.

--- In Q-LIST@..., "wesisberg" <wes@c...> wrote:

Hi -

For my Q200 I have a fibreglas spinner and bulkhead that I've

decided

to replace with aluminum (spinner, rear bulkhead and probably front
bulkhead), most likely the Aircraft Spruce one mentioned by Sam

Hoskins in

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/message/19334

i.e.,

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sn4.php

If someone knows of a better (more timely?) alternative, let me

know.

(I considered getting the rear bulkhead and buying or making the
front bulkhead and sticking with the fibreglas spinner, but I'm
guessing I'd save at most a pound for the trouble.)

Thanks -
Wes

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org






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_____

From my experience with resins and cloth, I would choose carbon fibre, I
surely believe it has the best qualities for a part like a spinner, I also
agree with both plates, Once made the part should be balanced. That is
probably why some are having a problem with the different materials
cracking, I really think it is in the balance. Charlie, (One Sky Dog) made a
beautiful carbon fibre one and I think he had them for sale a few years
back, Think he monitors this list and the Dfly list.



Keep Building

Ron T



_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Sam Hoskins
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:08 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: aluminum spinner - ACS SN-4?



In my experience Kevlar is very difficult to make clean non-fuzzy cuts. I
would recommend the aluminum spinner with the aluminum back plate.

Spruce has a limited number of front plates available. As already
mentioned, the geometry of the front plate is dependent on the prop
thickness.

There is a very long lead-time (months) ordering spinners and back plates
from Spruce and they don't always fit perfectly. It might not hurt to order
two back plates and keep one as a spare. Each one is custom made, since
they drill the bolt pattern. The O-200 uses the SAE 1 pattern with 5/8"
bushings.

I tried the plastic tubing method for the front plant and it failed on me,
so I fabricated my own front plate using Kevlar. Carbon fiber probably
would have been a better choice. I installed nut plates and use four screws
to attach the spinner to the front plate.

I have probably installed six spinners in the last 20 years. For me, it's a
real pain in the rear and gut wrenching experience. Overall, I am very
dissatisfied with the ACS product support and customer service. If there
was a suitable off-the-shelf composite spinner supplier I would sure like to
meet them.

Sam Hoskins

Murphysboro, IL





_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
wesisberg
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:30 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: aluminum spinner - ACS SN-4?



Hi Jim -

Mainly I was hoping to hear of bulkheads I could get faster.

I did talk with Brad and did plan the front bulkhead (make or buy).
I try to do the research before posting so as not to waste people's
time, but also I'd like to hear any objections in case I left
something out (e.g., perhaps I should keep the *kevlar* spinner but
use the SN-4 bulkheads, or buy the rear and make the front...).
I have about 100 items on my todo list for 57RM, and I'm trying not
to ask too much of you, Bob, Dave, et al. And if I did try to copy
the beautiful machine next to mine, it would be more like 1000
todo items! Yours does give me something to aim for - after 57RM is
flying again.

Thanks -
Wes

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Jim Patillo"
<logistics_engineering@m...> wrote:

Wes,

You DO need to install a front bulkhead for your spinner. Talk to
Brad Olsen about what happens when you don't. He didn't have one and
his rear bulkhead failed (around the bolt pattern) on our way back
from Oshkosh, leaving the spinner flopping around on his new prop.
Fortunately I saw it just as we landed in Rapid City, SD. A couple
more minutes and it would have failed and could have taken off the
prop as it was already cutting into it.

Jim Patillo N46JP Q200

P.S. All of the issues you keep asking about have been done and are
readily solvable. Just look at the beautiful example next you and
copy it! A no brainer. Remember there are more Q200's on your field
than anywhere else on the earth.

--- In Q-LIST@..., "wesisberg" <wes@c...> wrote:

Hi -

For my Q200 I have a fibreglas spinner and bulkhead that I've

decided

to replace with aluminum (spinner, rear bulkhead and probably front
bulkhead), most likely the Aircraft Spruce one mentioned by Sam

Hoskins in

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Q-LIST/message/19334

i.e.,

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sn4.php

If someone knows of a better (more timely?) alternative, let me

know.

(I considered getting the rear bulkhead and buying or making the
front bulkhead and sticking with the fibreglas spinner, but I'm
guessing I'd save at most a pound for the trouble.)

Thanks -
Wes

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org






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Well it is not really a point but a small dome. And we need to balance the back and front plates also. I think that generally not enough attention is given to the balancing of each part.
Peter

Thanks Jim. Sounds as if you have the means to balance as good as it gets.
Peter

Jim I just realised I missread yout misspoke ! But if you can balance the whole of the assembly including the prop, the spinner and bulkheads that seems like the way to go ?
Peter

No spinner looks unfinished and how about the effect on airflow into the cowl ?
Peter

Sam, how did the plastic tubing method fail?

Dave Chalmers
TriQ200 N4016G 250hrs
Redmond WA

Apparently the plate/tubing combination was not rock solid and some movement
occurred. This movement flexes the back plate and develops cracks. The cracks
appear as very thin black lines on the backplate, often around the
circumference of the crankshaft flange.
Sam

Sam,

FYI, I've been using an aluminum spinner, aluminum backing plate and
aluminum front bulkhead (wrapped with small diameter black rubber fuel
hose)for 700+ hours now and have never had a problem. The front
bulkhead/rubber hose to spinner is a fairly snug push on fit.

Regards,

Jim P.

P.S. I've now converted the outer bushings on my ailerons and elevators
from steel on steel bushings(factory)to Rulon on steel. It completely
eliminated the up/down slop found on most all Q's. The controls are
extremely smooth. I will keep everyone informed as I complete a 1 yr.
test period.


-- In Q-LIST@..., shoskins@m... wrote:

Apparently the plate/tubing combination was not rock solid and some

movement

occurred. This movement flexes the back plate and develops cracks.

The cracks

appear as very thin black lines on the backplate, often around the
circumference of the crankshaft flange.
Sam





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim, Where did you buy your Rulon. Do they make bushings or did you fabricate yours?

Steve Ham

As another point of info regarding the use of tubing on the front spinner
bulkhead, I also had failures when I used Tygon tubing. When I switched to
polyurethane tubing, the problems went away. Urethane has much higher cut
and abrasion resistance. I have about 250 hours on the urethane and it still
looks good.

Bob F.
N200QK
EAA Flight Advisor