Air Flow at canard - fuselage intersection LS1


Phil Lankford
 

Golly Jim! Is Mark another 4 mph faster? Are there any pictures of Mark's
VG set-up in the files yet? Great work, Mark!

Cheers,

Phil


Jim Patillo
 

All,

A few weeks ago Mark Summers from Livermore (Q200 with GU canard) did
an oil flow test and found the canard - fuselage intersection on his
plane to be real draggy. The flow lines were all over the place. He
installed a vortex generator on the GU (at the 40% of cord area) about
1 1/2" from the fuselage and about 3" of dimpled tape up the side of
the fuselage on both sides. He claims about a 4 mph increase in speed
as a result. He repeated the flow test and found the area cleaned up
significantly and the air was now staying attached.

For a long time now we have been told by people like John Ronz that
this area was suspect. Many of us thought of reworking the area for
drag reduction.

As one always looking for speed I did the oil flow test on my Q200
-LS1 canard this weekend and found a totally different situation. The
air flow in that area of my plane stays attached. Take a look in the
photos section to the left titled Jim Patillo. AS soon as I landed I
looked at the flow and the lines were straight. (Note these pictures
were taken about 10 minutes after landng and were starting to droop
because fo gravity).. It appears the LS1 also cleaned up that area
for air flow. The only thing I noticed was that at the sparrow
strainer, the flow was not attached fully in that area. Don't know if
that is significant or not. Any opinions?

Jim Patillo N46JP Q200


David J. Gall
 

Jim,

That's some good-looking airflow you've got in that wing/fuselage
intersection!


David J. Gall

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 9:28 PM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Q-LIST] Air Flow at canard - fuselage intersection LS1


All,

A few weeks ago Mark Summers from Livermore (Q200 with GU
canard) did an oil flow test and found the canard - fuselage
intersection on his plane to be real draggy. The flow lines
were all over the place. He installed a vortex generator on
the GU (at the 40% of cord area) about
1 1/2" from the fuselage and about 3" of dimpled tape up the
side of the fuselage on both sides. He claims about a 4 mph
increase in speed as a result. He repeated the flow test and
found the area cleaned up significantly and the air was now
staying attached.

For a long time now we have been told by people like John
Ronz that this area was suspect. Many of us thought of
reworking the area for drag reduction.

As one always looking for speed I did the oil flow test on my Q200
-LS1 canard this weekend and found a totally different
situation. The air flow in that area of my plane stays
attached. Take a look in the photos section to the left
titled Jim Patillo. AS soon as I landed I looked at the flow
and the lines were straight. (Note these pictures were taken
about 10 minutes after landng and were starting to droop
because fo gravity).. It appears the LS1 also cleaned up
that area for air flow. The only thing I noticed was that at
the sparrow strainer, the flow was not attached fully in that
area. Don't know if that is significant or not. Any opinions?

Jim Patillo N46JP Q200


Larry Severson
 

Golly Jim! Is Mark another 4 mph faster? Are there any pictures of Mark's
VG set-up in the files yet? Great work, Mark!
Any join of surfaces greater than 45 degrees should be contoured (beer can fillet) for minimum drag. I have not seen (noticed) any that have such a fillet below the main wing on Qs.


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@socal.rr.com


Jim Patillo
 

Phil,

Mark is kind of quit. He's off working at Homeland Security in DC as
of last week. You may never see those pictures in the files. Should of
taken pictures when you were here. I said he claims 4 mph, I didn't
say he was getting it! We'll verify next time we fly together.
Although when he says something you can usually count on it.

With his fuel injected pumped up 0200 and this new mod he does have a
fast plane. Mark's made many inovations in drag reduction on his
plane, like cutting the kidney tank in half and keeping the engine
cowling flush with the bottom of fuselage, his own design for VG's on
the GU canard and this latest one. All these things make for a slick
plane.

Regards,
JIm Patillo N46JP Q200


--- In Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com, britmcman@... wrote:

Golly Jim! Is Mark another 4 mph faster? Are there any pictures of
Mark's
VG set-up in the files yet? Great work, Mark!

Cheers,

Phil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Jim Patillo
 

That sounds good Larry but did you look at the actual facts with the
pix of my canard flow test this weekend. That may shoot your theory
all to hell. The main wing is next. What are you doing to promote
the species? Are you in the air still?

Jim Patillo N46JP Q200


--- In Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com, larry severson <larry2@...> wrote:


Golly Jim! Is Mark another 4 mph faster? Are there any pictures
of Mark's
VG set-up in the files yet? Great work, Mark!
Any join of surfaces greater than 45 degrees should be contoured
(beer can fillet) for minimum drag. I have not seen (noticed) any
that have such a fillet below the main wing on Qs.


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Larry Severson
 

That sounds good Larry but did you look at the actual facts with the
pix of my canard flow test this weekend.
No, I need to do it.

That may shoot your theory
all to hell. The main wing is next. What are you doing to promote
the species?
Everything I can.

Are you in the air still?
Well. I haven't flown since 6/6 because of an apparent engine overtemp situation. After spending time building a bigger plenum, I found that the problem was in my engine monitoring system. I was going to fly Thursday, but low ceilings and drizzle killed that. Tomorrow, I hope. I need to fly a lot. SOON!


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@socal.rr.com


Phil Lankford
 

Jim:

I took careful note of Mark's VG arrangement, but saw no VGs in close
proximity to the upper aft inboard canard region. The implication was that there
were some special placements of VGs in that area to keep the air attached.

I too have a very streamlined oil tank. It even has a place to store the
carburetor.;)

Phil


Jim Patillo
 

I believe he had them installed at the flyin Phil.
JIm
--- In Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com, britmcman@... wrote:

Jim:

I took careful note of Mark's VG arrangement, but saw no VGs in close
proximity to the upper aft inboard canard region. The implication
was that there
were some special placements of VGs in that area to keep the air
attached.

I too have a very streamlined oil tank. It even has a place to
store the
carburetor.;)

Phil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Dave Richardson <dave@...>
 

Hi Jim,



I had similar results in some "unscheduled" oil flow tests on my Tri-Q2
with an LS1. The specific point I saw was the arched clean area about
4-5 inches above the canard / fuselage intersection. I always wondered
what the air was doing right in the contour between the canard and
fuselage. Some had suggested that it was compressing the air there
which would cause drag and less of a V shape and more of an L shape
there would help. That is a compound low pressure area from the canard
shape as well as the fuselage shape. In fact, it is low enough to suck
loose oil from inside the cowling (hence my "tests"). You know I think
Burt and co. really had it right on the Quickie by putting the major
cowling exit air out over the canard through those gills. On the Q2/xx
we try to dump the cooling air out into a high pressure area under the
fuselage and we have these two nice low pressure areas. I'm sure there
are other considerations, though. The Eagle 150 uses this area for
their cooling air exit.



Anyway, thanks for sharing the photos.



Dave Richardson

Tri-Q2 825DR 69 hrs.


David J. Gall
 

You
know I think Burt and co. really had it right on the Quickie
by putting the major cowling exit air out over the canard
through those gills. On the Q2/xx we try to dump the cooling
air out into a high pressure area under the fuselage and we
have these two nice low pressure areas.
Agreed. Check the files section under "Side Cooling" for the late Larry
Koutz' excellent work mapping the low pressure area on his Q200.


David J. Gall


-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Dave Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 8:19 AM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: Air Flow at canard - fuselage
intersection LS1

Hi Jim,



I had similar results in some "unscheduled" oil flow tests on
my Tri-Q2 with an LS1. The specific point I saw was the
arched clean area about
4-5 inches above the canard / fuselage intersection. I
always wondered what the air was doing right in the contour
between the canard and fuselage. Some had suggested that it
was compressing the air there which would cause drag and less
of a V shape and more of an L shape there would help. That
is a compound low pressure area from the canard shape as well
as the fuselage shape. In fact, it is low enough to suck
loose oil from inside the cowling (hence my "tests"). You
know I think Burt and co. really had it right on the Quickie
by putting the major cowling exit air out over the canard
through those gills. On the Q2/xx we try to dump the cooling
air out into a high pressure area under the fuselage and we
have these two nice low pressure areas. I'm sure there are
other considerations, though. The Eagle 150 uses this area
for their cooling air exit.



Anyway, thanks for sharing the photos.



Dave Richardson

Tri-Q2 825DR 69 hrs.



Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org


Yahoo! Groups Links









Larry Severson
 

Some had suggested that it was compressing the air there
which would cause drag and less of a V shape and more of an L shape
there would help.
Actually, best is a fillet with "beer can" rounding for min drag.


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@socal.rr.com


Patrick Panzera <panzera@...>
 

This is the kind of stuff I'd do on a regular basis if only I had a plane to
fly and experiment with. :(

Good job Jim.

But on a slightly different topic...

We've all heard that the "left turning tendency" is partly due to the
"spiral slipstream" but I've never seen any physical evidence of this on any
of the planes I rent, like bugs on the left side of the vertical stab or oil
from the belly making its way up the left side of the fuselage and onto the
vertical stab and/or rudder.

With your new oil flow tests, are there any signs of the "spiral slipstream"
in the oil on your plane?

Thanks!

Pat

That sounds good Larry but did you look at the actual facts with the
pix of my canard flow test this weekend. That may shoot your theory
all to hell. The main wing is next. What are you doing to promote
the species? Are you in the air still?


One Sky Dog
 

In a message dated 9/19/2006 8:37:15 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
logistics_engineering@msn.com writes:

I took careful note of Mark's VG arrangement, but saw no VGs in close
proximity to the upper aft inboard canard region. The implication
was that there
were some special placements of VGs in that area to keep the air
attached.



Ronce says 50% chord for the GU and it is true.

I believe that the GU has a standing separation bubble that forms from the
root and travels out along the hingeline of the elevator. How far out and how
well it develops depends a lot on how the wing was cut and finished, the root
fairing, and the bugs and rain on the leading edge.

I used a wide spacing on my VG's on a Dragonfly 4" between each VG, not
pairs but each one. I have flown in light to moderate rain and they work great. I
do not seek out Cat5 stuff to see if they work in strong rain.

I can see that one VG vortex close to the fuse might disrupt the formation
of the separation bubble. Kinda like sticking your finger in the side of the
vortex in the drain.

Regards,

One Sky Dog


Jim Patillo
 

Pat I was refering to moving my pictures now in the files section to
the photo section.

No I haven't noticed a spiral slipstream.

Thanks Jim

--- In Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Panzera" <panzera@...> wrote:

This is the kind of stuff I'd do on a regular basis if only I had a
plane to
fly and experiment with. :(

Good job Jim.

But on a slightly different topic...

We've all heard that the "left turning tendency" is partly due to the
"spiral slipstream" but I've never seen any physical evidence of
this on any
of the planes I rent, like bugs on the left side of the vertical
stab or oil
from the belly making its way up the left side of the fuselage and
onto the
vertical stab and/or rudder.

With your new oil flow tests, are there any signs of the "spiral
slipstream"
in the oil on your plane?

Thanks!

Pat


That sounds good Larry but did you look at the actual facts with the
pix of my canard flow test this weekend. That may shoot your theory
all to hell. The main wing is next. What are you doing to promote
the species? Are you in the air still?


Patrick Panzera <panzera@...>
 

Pat I was refering to moving my pictures now in the files section to
the photo section.
10-4.

I've tried, no joy.

No I haven't noticed a spiral slipstream.
Cool.

Pat


Sam Hoskins <shoskins@...>
 

Take a look at the wing/fuselage junction on these racers. Pay particular
attention to photos of Nemesis and to Lee Behel, in the Lancair Legacy. I'm
going to do something like that with my Q-200 - someday.

http://www.airventure.de/reno05engl_03.htm

Sam



_____

From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Jim Patillo
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 12:35 PM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Air Flow at canard - fuselage intersection LS1




Phil,

Mark is kind of quit. He's off working at Homeland Security in DC as
of last week. You may never see those pictures in the files. Should of
taken pictures when you were here. I said he claims 4 mph, I didn't
say he was getting it! We'll verify next time we fly together.
Although when he says something you can usually count on it.

With his fuel injected pumped up 0200 and this new mod he does have a
fast plane. Mark's made many inovations in drag reduction on his
plane, like cutting the kidney tank in half and keeping the engine
cowling flush with the bottom of fuselage, his own design for VG's on
the GU canard and this latest one. All these things make for a slick
plane.

Regards,
JIm Patillo N46JP Q200

--- In Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com,
britmcman@... wrote:

Golly Jim! Is Mark another 4 mph faster? Are there any pictures of
Mark's
VG set-up in the files yet? Great work, Mark!

Cheers,

Phil




Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

Some great shots. Time to unload that canard Sam. Where's Jeff Quinn ??

Peter



_____

From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Sam Hoskins
Sent: Wednesday, 20 September 2006 10:56 AM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: Air Flow at canard - fuselage intersection LS1



Take a look at the wing/fuselage junction on these racers. Pay particular
attention to photos of Nemesis and to Lee Behel, in the Lancair Legacy. I'm
going to do something like that with my Q-200 - someday.

http://www.airventu <http://www.airventure.de/reno05engl_03.htm>
re.de/reno05engl_03.htm

Sam

_____

From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
Of
Jim Patillo
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 12:35 PM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Air Flow at canard - fuselage intersection LS1

Phil,

Mark is kind of quit. He's off working at Homeland Security in DC as
of last week. You may never see those pictures in the files. Should of
taken pictures when you were here. I said he claims 4 mph, I didn't
say he was getting it! We'll verify next time we fly together.
Although when he says something you can usually count on it.

With his fuel injected pumped up 0200 and this new mod he does have a
fast plane. Mark's made many inovations in drag reduction on his
plane, like cutting the kidney tank in half and keeping the engine
cowling flush with the bottom of fuselage, his own design for VG's on
the GU canard and this latest one. All these things make for a slick
plane.

Regards,
JIm Patillo N46JP Q200

--- In Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com,
britmcman@... wrote:

Golly Jim! Is Mark another 4 mph faster? Are there any pictures of
Mark's
VG set-up in the files yet? Great work, Mark!

Cheers,

Phil




Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

Dave, I made gills for cooling the Norton and have kept them for the Jabiru
3300 installation. I was not aware of Burt's work. I cut "D" shaped panels
from the rear side cowl one each side and glassed the "D" reversed inside
the cowl to make inverted "gills". I think they produce no drag and located
in this low pressure area they work well. But I have retained the shroud and
tunnel underneath. When the shroud is closed I get a cruise CHT of 239degF
when ambient is about 77degF. These gills show up in the pics file for VHONQ
Oskar.

Peter



_____

From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Dave Richardson
Sent: Wednesday, 20 September 2006 1:19 AM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: Air Flow at canard - fuselage intersection LS1



Hi Jim,

I had similar results in some "unscheduled" oil flow tests on my Tri-Q2
with an LS1. The specific point I saw was the arched clean area about
4-5 inches above the canard / fuselage intersection. I always wondered
what the air was doing right in the contour between the canard and
fuselage. Some had suggested that it was compressing the air there
which would cause drag and less of a V shape and more of an L shape
there would help. That is a compound low pressure area from the canard
shape as well as the fuselage shape. In fact, it is low enough to suck
loose oil from inside the cowling (hence my "tests"). You know I think
Burt and co. really had it right on the Quickie by putting the major
cowling exit air out over the canard through those gills. On the Q2/xx
we try to dump the cooling air out into a high pressure area under the
fuselage and we have these two nice low pressure areas. I'm sure there
are other considerations, though. The Eagle 150 uses this area for
their cooling air exit.

Anyway, thanks for sharing the photos.

Dave Richardson

Tri-Q2 825DR 69 hrs.


Ron Triano <rondefly@...>
 

Sam, are you talking about the small fillet at the wing root junction. Other
than a different paint job each of the 3 years I don't see any change to
anything in that area I have several photos of all the NXTs each year.



Ron



Sonerai flying and Q200 gettin there


<http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page11.html>
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page11.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Sam Hoskins
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 5:56 PM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] Re: Air Flow at canard - fuselage intersection LS1



Take a look at the wing/fuselage junction on these racers. Pay particular
attention to photos of Nemesis and to Lee Behel, in the Lancair Legacy. I'm
going to do something like that with my Q-200 - someday.

http://www.airventu <http://www.airventure.de/reno05engl_03.htm>
re.de/reno05engl_03.htm

Sam

_____

From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
Of
Jim Patillo
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 12:35 PM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: [Q-LIST] Re: Air Flow at canard - fuselage intersection LS1

Phil,

Mark is kind of quit. He's off working at Homeland Security in DC as
of last week. You may never see those pictures in the files. Should of
taken pictures when you were here. I said he claims 4 mph, I didn't
say he was getting it! We'll verify next time we fly together.
Although when he says something you can usually count on it.

With his fuel injected pumped up 0200 and this new mod he does have a
fast plane. Mark's made many inovations in drag reduction on his
plane, like cutting the kidney tank in half and keeping the engine
cowling flush with the bottom of fuselage, his own design for VG's on
the GU canard and this latest one. All these things make for a slick
plane.

Regards,
JIm Patillo N46JP Q200

--- In Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com,
britmcman@... wrote:

Golly Jim! Is Mark another 4 mph faster? Are there any pictures of
Mark's
VG set-up in the files yet? Great work, Mark!

Cheers,

Phil