the Official Runway Distance thread


quickieaircraft
 

I've been looking through the archives trying to figure out what a
reasonable expectation for a minimum TO/LD distance is for these
planes. I have encountered everything from 700ft (Mike!) to 3500
ft. If you want, post the distance that YOU takeoff/land in.

Please also include:
1)if you've got a tri (you might be able to hit the brakes harder) or
taildragger
2) Your prop--unless you like to land deadstick
3) any mods, esp the reflexor (and its setting) or VGs.
4) GVW during the TO/LD
5) field condition: wet, asphalt, grass?
6) whether you're pulling the stick aft, neutral, or fwd.
7) the airspeed @which you flare, hit the brakes, call your wife, and
do other important things.


Hopefully, we'll be able to identify what it is that those short
landing guys are doing right. But I've got a personal motivation
too. There's an airport by my house (CGS) that's 2607 x60ft and
could represent a high pucker factor.


britmcman99
 

2607 feet is plenty of room to land a conventional Q200 taildragger. That's
all you should ever need if everything works out right. I have landed in
less than 2607 feet and on runways with 50' width. If you commit yourself to a
home airport where you must do this every time, then one day you will not
succeed. Plan for success by allowing some margin.

I had a good friend and mentor. He was my Civil Air Patrol Captain in
Shawnee Oklahoma. He had a Beech Musketeer and flew regularly out of his private
ranch airstrip. I had an opportunity to overfly his place in my Cherokee 140
and as a young low time pilot I thought to myself that I would never attempt
to land there in my plane. The day came when bad things happened and it
resulted in the loss of the pilot, plane and a passenger who was along for a joy
ride.

A 3000 foot runway is probably fine for a conventional Q200 pilot who is
proficient in his aircraft. Less than 3000 feet - pick a different aircraft.

I have a hunch that far too many pilots strive to touch the numbers on
landing and thus remove any margin for safety in the event of an engine failure on
final. Good practice would be to be able to make the field in the event of
an engine failure anywhere past midfield downwind. A short runway entices
folks to focus too much on what is at the other end of the runway when they
should leave a little worry about what is in front of the runway.

Just my two cents worth. I have flown and crash landed a Q200 and I am in
the process of prepping a Tri-Q200 and a Revmaster Q2. I love these planes,
but give me lots of runway.


Cheers,

Phil Lankford


Doug Humble <hawkidoug@...>
 

Your email didn't have your name or location which is always nice, so we know who's asking the question.

Without answering all your questions, the reality is your 2600 x 60 foot runway is not a good choice for the tail dragger version of this airplane unless you are very experienced in one. You come over the numbers at 80+ mph and things happen fast. I've landed within 2500' but it was on a runway of 150' x 8000' so I had plenty of room for error. Some of the more experienced pilots could do it, but I would guess they would not call a 2600x60 home base (Unless your Jon Finley). If you are talking about a grass field - look for a different aircraft.

Lets see what the Tri-Q guys think.

Just my "Humble" opinion.

Doug "Hawkeye" Humble
A Sign Above www.asignabove.net
Omaha NE
N25974

----- Original Message -----
From: quickieaircraft
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 8:13 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread


I've been looking through the archives trying to figure out what a
reasonable expectation for a minimum TO/LD distance is for these
planes. I have encountered everything from 700ft (Mike!) to 3500
ft. If you want, post the distance that YOU takeoff/land in.

Please also include:
1)if you've got a tri (you might be able to hit the brakes harder) or
taildragger
2) Your prop--unless you like to land deadstick
3) any mods, esp the reflexor (and its setting) or VGs.
4) GVW during the TO/LD
5) field condition: wet, asphalt, grass?
6) whether you're pulling the stick aft, neutral, or fwd.
7) the airspeed @which you flare, hit the brakes, call your wife, and
do other important things.

Hopefully, we'll be able to identify what it is that those short
landing guys are doing right. But I've got a personal motivation
too. There's an airport by my house (CGS) that's 2607 x60ft and
could represent a high pucker factor.


Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

Quickiecraft,



Best short field I have done as a Q2 tail dragger is 2114ft (gravel) with a
head wind of 10-15KTS and this is the cross strip at Maroochy I have used
several times.

Then I was based at Noosa which is narrow 25ft x 2760ft (gravel) with a
displaced threshold for trees at one end and a lake at the other. No go
arounds.

As a Q2 the prop was 56x49 and gross about 410KG

Now as a Q-200 Jabiru the prop is 56X72 and gross 420KG.

Best short field performance is found by following the POH. "Land full stall
tailwheel first" and for me that means over the fence at no more than 70KTS,
which translates into a fairly steep nose high descent , hold it off till
the stall warning peeps, then feel for the runway with the tailwheel and
pull full aft stick when it contacts the tarmac. Once the canard is stalled
then by holding full aft stick the elevator at 23 deg is a flap and
contributes useful drag which reduces the run. Takeoff run for both my Q2
and the Q200 is about 970ft to the lift off point. I have the modified
tailwheel hardware with vertical axis and pneumatic tyre, no other mods. I
believe that the tailwheel is for steering and the brakes are for braking.
For my preference I don't want a dual brakes and tailwheel steering mode and
would not recommend the added fail points and complexity of the additional
bellcrank. Just my opinion. Without dual brakes the plans bellcrank is fine
for parking and fine for fast taxi provided that you fix your eyes on the
end of the runway, otherwise there will be unavoidable PIO swerves.

I would recommend the Gall alignment based on the reports of others and a
reflexor would assist in managing the final approach visibility and flare.

Peter



_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
quickieaircraft
Sent: Saturday, 21 October 2006 11:14 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread



I've been looking through the archives trying to figure out what a
reasonable expectation for a minimum TO/LD distance is for these
planes. I have encountered everything from 700ft (Mike!) to 3500
ft. If you want, post the distance that YOU takeoff/land in.

Please also include:
1)if you've got a tri (you might be able to hit the brakes harder) or
taildragger
2) Your prop--unless you like to land deadstick
3) any mods, esp the reflexor (and its setting) or VGs.
4) GVW during the TO/LD
5) field condition: wet, asphalt, grass?
6) whether you're pulling the stick aft, neutral, or fwd.
7) the airspeed @which you flare, hit the brakes, call your wife, and
do other important things.

Hopefully, we'll be able to identify what it is that those short
landing guys are doing right. But I've got a personal motivation
too. There's an airport by my house (CGS) that's 2607 x60ft and
could represent a high pucker factor.


MartinErni@...
 

Sam,
The 1st one looks like the place I did my 1st solo quickie flight.
That's what it felt like, but it was actually 8000X150. :-)

Earnest


Sam Hoskins <shoskins@...>
 

Here are a few airports that may be challenging. Maybe one or two might be
suitable for the Tandem Wing event. Any of you guys ever been to any of
these?

http://www.mountainflying.com/dewey1.htm
http://www.mountainflying.com/milehi2.htm
http://www.mountainflying.com/soldier5.htm
http://www.mountainflying.com/soldier6.htm

Sam Hoskins Q-200

_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
quickieaircraft
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 8:14 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread



I've been looking through the archives trying to figure out what a
reasonable expectation for a minimum TO/LD distance is for these
planes. I have encountered everything from 700ft (Mike!) to 3500
ft. If you want, post the distance that YOU takeoff/land in.

Please also include:
1)if you've got a tri (you might be able to hit the brakes harder) or
taildragger
2) Your prop--unless you like to land deadstick
3) any mods, esp the reflexor (and its setting) or VGs.
4) GVW during the TO/LD
5) field condition: wet, asphalt, grass?
6) whether you're pulling the stick aft, neutral, or fwd.
7) the airspeed @which you flare, hit the brakes, call your wife, and
do other important things.

Hopefully, we'll be able to identify what it is that those short
landing guys are doing right. But I've got a personal motivation
too. There's an airport by my house (CGS) that's 2607 x60ft and
could represent a high pucker factor.


Jon Finley <jon@...>
 

1. Q2(GU-Taildragger) - Subaru EJ-22
2. Warp Drive 3 blade (about 13 degrees)
3. Reflexor - NO belly board - No numbers on the Reflexor but always shoot
for a three-point touchdown attitude on base/final (which is ailerons
reflexed UP (tail down))
4. Typically 1050-1100 lbs - Occasionally more
5. Dry, asphalt/concrete
6. Aft
7. Below...

My home airport is now E98 which has a 4340' x 37' runway at 4830' MSL. I
prefer to think of it as a 4350' x 40'.... ;-) Most of my flying here has
been at 7000-8000' density altitudes. I've got some things to test to see
if I screwed up my airplane (during the move here) but currently, I have to
be at 100mph all the way to touchdown or I am out of elevator. That speed
plus focus on keeping it on the runway result in using the WHOLE runway.
Takeoff only requires about 2500' (a guess).

Previous home base (FCM) had 3900x75 at 900' MSL. Same setup, DA of around
1500-2000'. Had to be over the numbers at 90 mph and generally touched down
around 85 mph. Typically used about 1500' on TO. Landings required about
2500'. If anything was amiss, I could chew up the whole length without a
second thought.

I NEVER do ANYTHING but fly the airplane until I am stopped (as in not
moving at all).

Jon Finley
N90MG - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 Legacy
http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru
Mid-Valley Airpark, Los Lunas, NM

P.S. I tried to land on a 2500' runway a couple of times in MN (no wind) and
could never get myself to commit as the end of the runway always appeared to
approaching must too fast.

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]On Behalf Of
quickieaircraft
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 7:14 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread


I've been looking through the archives trying to figure out what a
reasonable expectation for a minimum TO/LD distance is for these
planes. I have encountered everything from 700ft (Mike!) to 3500
ft. If you want, post the distance that YOU takeoff/land in.

Please also include:
1)if you've got a tri (you might be able to hit the brakes harder) or
taildragger
2) Your prop--unless you like to land deadstick
3) any mods, esp the reflexor (and its setting) or VGs.
4) GVW during the TO/LD
5) field condition: wet, asphalt, grass?
6) whether you're pulling the stick aft, neutral, or fwd.
7) the airspeed @which you flare, hit the brakes, call your wife, and
do other important things.


Hopefully, we'll be able to identify what it is that those short
landing guys are doing right. But I've got a personal motivation
too. There's an airport by my house (CGS) that's 2607 x60ft and
could represent a high pucker factor.


Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
 

Hey Jon,
Did I read that right, you land with full up aileron reflexer? This makes you need more speed to three point it cause the tail will be low I believe.... An experiment you could try would be to get a level in your plane that reads 0 degrees pitch on the ground (your landing attitude). Go up a few thousand feet. Set the reflexer to neutral and see what speed you get when the level is 0. Then set the reflexer up and see what speed it takes to get a 0 degrees. I bet the speed is much higher with the reflexer up. Also, maybe your doing high sink rate landings. I find that if I'm sinking fast then I can run out of elevator in the flare so I use a little power to stop the sink rate. Try using some power and keep the sink rate down, then chop the power over the numbers.

Another way to think of this is the reflexer reduces the lift on the rear wing so you've got to go forward on the elevator to maintain a balance. You've reduced lift overall so the stall speed has to be higher. Just my opinion...

Here's my numbers N3QP

1. Q200 Taildragger - Cont 0-200 unmodified
2. Marge Warnkee 2 blade 58 Dia 64 pitch?
3. Reflexor - NO belly board. Always shoot for a three-point touchdown attitude on base/final (ailerons reflexed neutral). Use the reflexer full up to cruise faster (4mph) and to kill lift just after touchdown.
4. Typically <1100 lbs
5. Dry, asphalt/concrete
6. Aft
7. 85MPH indicated single place, 90 mph indicated two place over the numbers. Sea level 59F takeoff single place 700', best landing 1600' Two place with full full and baggage I'm happy with 3000' to land. Narrowest runway I've ever landed on 60'. Chicken factor 10, I want to be an old pilot...




Jon Finley wrote:

1. Q2(GU-Taildragger) - Subaru EJ-22
2. Warp Drive 3 blade (about 13 degrees)
3. Reflexor - NO belly board - No numbers on the Reflexor but always shoot
for a three-point touchdown attitude on base/final (which is ailerons
reflexed UP (tail down))
4. Typically 1050-1100 lbs - Occasionally more
5. Dry, asphalt/concrete
6. Aft
7. Below...

My home airport is now E98 which has a 4340' x 37' runway at 4830' MSL. I
prefer to think of it as a 4350' x 40'.... ;-) Most of my flying here has
been at 7000-8000' density altitudes. I've got some things to test to see
if I screwed up my airplane (during the move here) but currently, I have to
be at 100mph all the way to touchdown or I am out of elevator. That speed
plus focus on keeping it on the runway result in using the WHOLE runway.
Takeoff only requires about 2500' (a guess).

Previous home base (FCM) had 3900x75 at 900' MSL. Same setup, DA of around
1500-2000'. Had to be over the numbers at 90 mph and generally touched down
around 85 mph. Typically used about 1500' on TO. Landings required about
2500'. If anything was amiss, I could chew up the whole length without a
second thought.

I NEVER do ANYTHING but fly the airplane until I am stopped (as in not
moving at all).

Jon Finley
N90MG - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 Legacy
http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru
Mid-Valley Airpark, Los Lunas, NM

P.S. I tried to land on a 2500' runway a couple of times in MN (no wind) and
could never get myself to commit as the end of the runway always appeared to
approaching must too fast.


-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...]On Behalf Of
quickieaircraft
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 7:14 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread


I've been looking through the archives trying to figure out what a
reasonable expectation for a minimum TO/LD distance is for these
planes. I have encountered everything from 700ft (Mike!) to 3500
ft. If you want, post the distance that YOU takeoff/land in.

Please also include:
1)if you've got a tri (you might be able to hit the brakes harder) or
taildragger
2) Your prop--unless you like to land deadstick
3) any mods, esp the reflexor (and its setting) or VGs.
4) GVW during the TO/LD
5) field condition: wet, asphalt, grass?
6) whether you're pulling the stick aft, neutral, or fwd.
7) the airspeed @which you flare, hit the brakes, call your wife, and
do other important things.


Hopefully, we'll be able to identify what it is that those short
landing guys are doing right. But I've got a personal motivation
too. There's an airport by my house (CGS) that's 2607 x60ft and
could represent a high pucker factor.



Sam Hoskins <shoskins@...>
 

I also land with full up reflexor. In fact, when I'm on downwind, abeam the
numbers, I pull power to 1,500 RPM, drop the speed brake, then set the
reflexor to full up and leave it there. I often land tail wheel first.
This is the scenario I use to get it slowed down the best.

Then I use my finger brakes and my unmodified tail wheel and the small
rudder to keep it on the center line.

I guess I'm just kind of contrary. Must be lucky too.

Sam Hoskins 1,600 hrs. (probably that many landings also)

Murphysboro, IL



_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Mike Dwyer
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 7:58 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread



Hey Jon,
Did I read that right, you land with full up aileron reflexer? This
makes you need more speed to three point it cause the tail will be low I
believe.... An experiment you could try would be to get a level in your
plane that reads 0 degrees pitch on the ground (your landing attitude).
Go up a few thousand feet. Set the reflexer to neutral and see what
speed you get when the level is 0. Then set the reflexer up and see
what speed it takes to get a 0 degrees. I bet the speed is much higher
with the reflexer up. Also, maybe your doing high sink rate landings.
I find that if I'm sinking fast then I can run out of elevator in the
flare so I use a little power to stop the sink rate. Try using some
power and keep the sink rate down, then chop the power over the numbers.

Another way to think of this is the reflexer reduces the lift on the
rear wing so you've got to go forward on the elevator to maintain a
balance. You've reduced lift overall so the stall speed has to be
higher. Just my opinion...

Here's my numbers N3QP

1. Q200 Taildragger - Cont 0-200 unmodified
2. Marge Warnkee 2 blade 58 Dia 64 pitch?
3. Reflexor - NO belly board. Always shoot for a three-point touchdown
attitude on base/final (ailerons reflexed neutral). Use the reflexer full up
to cruise faster (4mph) and to kill lift just after touchdown.
4. Typically <1100 lbs
5. Dry, asphalt/concrete
6. Aft
7. 85MPH indicated single place, 90 mph indicated two place over the
numbers.
Sea level 59F takeoff single place 700', best landing 1600' Two place with
full full and baggage I'm happy with 3000' to land. Narrowest runway I've
ever landed on 60'. Chicken factor 10, I want to be an old pilot...

Jon Finley wrote:
1. Q2(GU-Taildragger) - Subaru EJ-22
2. Warp Drive 3 blade (about 13 degrees)
3. Reflexor - NO belly board - No numbers on the Reflexor but always shoot
for a three-point touchdown attitude on base/final (which is ailerons
reflexed UP (tail down))
4. Typically 1050-1100 lbs - Occasionally more
5. Dry, asphalt/concrete
6. Aft
7. Below...

My home airport is now E98 which has a 4340' x 37' runway at 4830' MSL. I
prefer to think of it as a 4350' x 40'.... ;-) Most of my flying here has
been at 7000-8000' density altitudes. I've got some things to test to see
if I screwed up my airplane (during the move here) but currently, I have
to
be at 100mph all the way to touchdown or I am out of elevator. That speed
plus focus on keeping it on the runway result in using the WHOLE runway.
Takeoff only requires about 2500' (a guess).

Previous home base (FCM) had 3900x75 at 900' MSL. Same setup, DA of around
1500-2000'. Had to be over the numbers at 90 mph and generally touched
down
around 85 mph. Typically used about 1500' on TO. Landings required about
2500'. If anything was amiss, I could chew up the whole length without a
second thought.

I NEVER do ANYTHING but fly the airplane until I am stopped (as in not
moving at all).

Jon Finley
N90MG - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 Legacy
http://www.finleywe <http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru> b.net/Q2Subaru
Mid-Valley Airpark, Los Lunas, NM

P.S. I tried to land on a 2500' runway a couple of times in MN (no wind)
and
could never get myself to commit as the end of the runway always appeared
to
approaching must too fast.


-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com]On Behalf
Of
quickieaircraft
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 7:14 PM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread


I've been looking through the archives trying to figure out what a
reasonable expectation for a minimum TO/LD distance is for these
planes. I have encountered everything from 700ft (Mike!) to 3500
ft. If you want, post the distance that YOU takeoff/land in.

Please also include:
1)if you've got a tri (you might be able to hit the brakes harder) or
taildragger
2) Your prop--unless you like to land deadstick
3) any mods, esp the reflexor (and its setting) or VGs.
4) GVW during the TO/LD
5) field condition: wet, asphalt, grass?
6) whether you're pulling the stick aft, neutral, or fwd.
7) the airspeed @which you flare, hit the brakes, call your wife, and
do other important things.


Hopefully, we'll be able to identify what it is that those short
landing guys are doing right. But I've got a personal motivation
too. There's an airport by my house (CGS) that's 2607 x60ft and
could represent a high pucker factor.



Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

Sam

To me it also makes sense to have the aelerons up for the flare so as to get
the tailwheel down and hold it down as early as possible. The aim I think is
not to three point it but get the tailwheel down first then stall the
canard. Once it is stalled the rest is easier.

Peter





_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Sam Hoskins
Sent: Sunday, 22 October 2006 1:54 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: RE: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread



I also land with full up reflexor. In fact, when I'm on downwind, abeam the
numbers, I pull power to 1,500 RPM, drop the speed brake, then set the
reflexor to full up and leave it there. I often land tail wheel first.
This is the scenario I use to get it slowed down the best.

Then I use my finger brakes and my unmodified tail wheel and the small
rudder to keep it on the center line.

I guess I'm just kind of contrary. Must be lucky too.

Sam Hoskins 1,600 hrs. (probably that many landings also)

Murphysboro, IL

_____

From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
Of
Mike Dwyer
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 7:58 PM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread

Hey Jon,
Did I read that right, you land with full up aileron reflexer? This
makes you need more speed to three point it cause the tail will be low I
believe.... An experiment you could try would be to get a level in your
plane that reads 0 degrees pitch on the ground (your landing attitude).
Go up a few thousand feet. Set the reflexer to neutral and see what
speed you get when the level is 0. Then set the reflexer up and see
what speed it takes to get a 0 degrees. I bet the speed is much higher
with the reflexer up. Also, maybe your doing high sink rate landings.
I find that if I'm sinking fast then I can run out of elevator in the
flare so I use a little power to stop the sink rate. Try using some
power and keep the sink rate down, then chop the power over the numbers.

Another way to think of this is the reflexer reduces the lift on the
rear wing so you've got to go forward on the elevator to maintain a
balance. You've reduced lift overall so the stall speed has to be
higher. Just my opinion...

Here's my numbers N3QP

1. Q200 Taildragger - Cont 0-200 unmodified
2. Marge Warnkee 2 blade 58 Dia 64 pitch?
3. Reflexor - NO belly board. Always shoot for a three-point touchdown
attitude on base/final (ailerons reflexed neutral). Use the reflexer full up
to cruise faster (4mph) and to kill lift just after touchdown.
4. Typically <1100 lbs
5. Dry, asphalt/concrete
6. Aft
7. 85MPH indicated single place, 90 mph indicated two place over the
numbers.
Sea level 59F takeoff single place 700', best landing 1600' Two place with
full full and baggage I'm happy with 3000' to land. Narrowest runway I've
ever landed on 60'. Chicken factor 10, I want to be an old pilot...

Jon Finley wrote:
1. Q2(GU-Taildragger) - Subaru EJ-22
2. Warp Drive 3 blade (about 13 degrees)
3. Reflexor - NO belly board - No numbers on the Reflexor but always shoot
for a three-point touchdown attitude on base/final (which is ailerons
reflexed UP (tail down))
4. Typically 1050-1100 lbs - Occasionally more
5. Dry, asphalt/concrete
6. Aft
7. Below...

My home airport is now E98 which has a 4340' x 37' runway at 4830' MSL. I
prefer to think of it as a 4350' x 40'.... ;-) Most of my flying here has
been at 7000-8000' density altitudes. I've got some things to test to see
if I screwed up my airplane (during the move here) but currently, I have
to
be at 100mph all the way to touchdown or I am out of elevator. That speed
plus focus on keeping it on the runway result in using the WHOLE runway.
Takeoff only requires about 2500' (a guess).

Previous home base (FCM) had 3900x75 at 900' MSL. Same setup, DA of around
1500-2000'. Had to be over the numbers at 90 mph and generally touched
down
around 85 mph. Typically used about 1500' on TO. Landings required about
2500'. If anything was amiss, I could chew up the whole length without a
second thought.

I NEVER do ANYTHING but fly the airplane until I am stopped (as in not
moving at all).

Jon Finley
N90MG - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 Legacy
http://www.finleywe <http://www.finleywe
<http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru> b.net/Q2Subaru> b.net/Q2Subaru
Mid-Valley Airpark, Los Lunas, NM

P.S. I tried to land on a 2500' runway a couple of times in MN (no wind)
and
could never get myself to commit as the end of the runway always appeared
to
approaching must too fast.


-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com]On Behalf
Of
quickieaircraft
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 7:14 PM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread


I've been looking through the archives trying to figure out what a
reasonable expectation for a minimum TO/LD distance is for these
planes. I have encountered everything from 700ft (Mike!) to 3500
ft. If you want, post the distance that YOU takeoff/land in.

Please also include:
1)if you've got a tri (you might be able to hit the brakes harder) or
taildragger
2) Your prop--unless you like to land deadstick
3) any mods, esp the reflexor (and its setting) or VGs.
4) GVW during the TO/LD
5) field condition: wet, asphalt, grass?
6) whether you're pulling the stick aft, neutral, or fwd.
7) the airspeed @which you flare, hit the brakes, call your wife, and
do other important things.


Hopefully, we'll be able to identify what it is that those short
landing guys are doing right. But I've got a personal motivation
too. There's an airport by my house (CGS) that's 2607 x60ft and
could represent a high pucker factor.



britmcman99
 

870BM had good elevator authority on landing with full down reflexor (Nose
down / tail high - main wing highest lift factor configuration). This gave
best view of runway during approach. Landing was tail wheel first with
elevator controlling attitude. Upon canard touchdown I would pull full up reflex
(reflex control on right hand).

With this configuration, I suspect the plane could fly at its slowest since
both reflexed ailerons and the elevators presented a high lift wind
configuration. Once on the deck, the switched reflexor assures main wing won't fly
and tail wheel authority is better assured.

Phil Lankford


Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
 

Hey Sam,
Have you posted your landing distances using that method? I searched the thread any didn't see the info. I'd also be curious what your best landing distance would be with and without the speed brake. This would help us understand how important it is (maybe I'll install one some day).
Happy Flyin,
Mike Q200



Sam Hoskins wrote:

I also land with full up reflexor. In fact, when I'm on downwind, abeam the
numbers, I pull power to 1,500 RPM, drop the speed brake, then set the
reflexor to full up and leave it there. I often land tail wheel first.
This is the scenario I use to get it slowed down the best.

Then I use my finger brakes and my unmodified tail wheel and the small
rudder to keep it on the center line.

I guess I'm just kind of contrary. Must be lucky too.

Sam Hoskins 1,600 hrs. (probably that many landings also)

Murphysboro, IL


_____
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Mike Dwyer
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 7:58 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread


Hey Jon,
Did I read that right, you land with full up aileron reflexer? This makes you need more speed to three point it cause the tail will be low I believe.... An experiment you could try would be to get a level in your plane that reads 0 degrees pitch on the ground (your landing attitude). Go up a few thousand feet. Set the reflexer to neutral and see what speed you get when the level is 0. Then set the reflexer up and see what speed it takes to get a 0 degrees. I bet the speed is much higher with the reflexer up. Also, maybe your doing high sink rate landings. I find that if I'm sinking fast then I can run out of elevator in the flare so I use a little power to stop the sink rate. Try using some power and keep the sink rate down, then chop the power over the numbers.

Another way to think of this is the reflexer reduces the lift on the rear wing so you've got to go forward on the elevator to maintain a balance. You've reduced lift overall so the stall speed has to be higher. Just my opinion...

Here's my numbers N3QP

1. Q200 Taildragger - Cont 0-200 unmodified
2. Marge Warnkee 2 blade 58 Dia 64 pitch?
3. Reflexor - NO belly board. Always shoot for a three-point touchdown
attitude on base/final (ailerons reflexed neutral). Use the reflexer full up
to cruise faster (4mph) and to kill lift just after touchdown.
4. Typically <1100 lbs
5. Dry, asphalt/concrete
6. Aft
7. 85MPH indicated single place, 90 mph indicated two place over the
numbers. Sea level 59F takeoff single place 700', best landing 1600' Two place with
full full and baggage I'm happy with 3000' to land. Narrowest runway I've
ever landed on 60'. Chicken factor 10, I want to be an old pilot...

Jon Finley wrote:

1. Q2(GU-Taildragger) - Subaru EJ-22
2. Warp Drive 3 blade (about 13 degrees)
3. Reflexor - NO belly board - No numbers on the Reflexor but always shoot
for a three-point touchdown attitude on base/final (which is ailerons
reflexed UP (tail down))
4. Typically 1050-1100 lbs - Occasionally more
5. Dry, asphalt/concrete
6. Aft
7. Below...

My home airport is now E98 which has a 4340' x 37' runway at 4830' MSL. I
prefer to think of it as a 4350' x 40'.... ;-) Most of my flying here has
been at 7000-8000' density altitudes. I've got some things to test to see
if I screwed up my airplane (during the move here) but currently, I have
to

be at 100mph all the way to touchdown or I am out of elevator. That speed
plus focus on keeping it on the runway result in using the WHOLE runway.
Takeoff only requires about 2500' (a guess).

Previous home base (FCM) had 3900x75 at 900' MSL. Same setup, DA of around
1500-2000'. Had to be over the numbers at 90 mph and generally touched
down

around 85 mph. Typically used about 1500' on TO. Landings required about
2500'. If anything was amiss, I could chew up the whole length without a
second thought.

I NEVER do ANYTHING but fly the airplane until I am stopped (as in not
moving at all).

Jon Finley
N90MG - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 Legacy
http://www.finleywe <http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru> b.net/Q2Subaru
Mid-Valley Airpark, Los Lunas, NM

P.S. I tried to land on a 2500' runway a couple of times in MN (no wind)
and

could never get myself to commit as the end of the runway always appeared
to

approaching must too fast.


-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
[mailto:Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com]On Behalf
Of

quickieaircraft
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 7:14 PM
To: Q-LIST@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> com
Subject: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread


I've been looking through the archives trying to figure out what a
reasonable expectation for a minimum TO/LD distance is for these
planes. I have encountered everything from 700ft (Mike!) to 3500
ft. If you want, post the distance that YOU takeoff/land in.

Please also include:
1)if you've got a tri (you might be able to hit the brakes harder) or
taildragger
2) Your prop--unless you like to land deadstick
3) any mods, esp the reflexor (and its setting) or VGs.
4) GVW during the TO/LD
5) field condition: wet, asphalt, grass?
6) whether you're pulling the stick aft, neutral, or fwd.
7) the airspeed @which you flare, hit the brakes, call your wife, and
do other important things.


Hopefully, we'll be able to identify what it is that those short
landing guys are doing right. But I've got a personal motivation
too. There's an airport by my house (CGS) that's 2607 x60ft and
could represent a high pucker factor.









Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links






britmcman99
 

Q: Is FULL down reflexor on the ailerons, on 870BM, the same aileron
position as planes without a reflexor installed?

A: No. Full down reflexor on N870BM meant that the trailing edges of the
ailerons were about 3/8" up above the main wing.

Phil


Tri-Q1 <rryan@...>
 

Phil,

Is FULL down reflexor on the ailerons, on 870BM, the same aileron
position as planes without a reflexor installed?

Ryan

--- In Q-LIST@..., britmcman@... wrote:

870BM had good elevator authority on landing with full down
reflexor (Nose down / tail high - main wing highest lift factor
configuration). This gave best view of runway during approach.
Landing was tail wheel first with elevator controlling attitude.


Upon canard touchdown I would pull full up reflex
(reflex control on right hand).

With this configuration, I suspect the plane could fly at its
slowest since
both reflexed ailerons and the elevators presented a high lift
wind
configuration. Once on the deck, the switched reflexor assures
main wing won't fly
and tail wheel authority is better assured.

Phil Lankford


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

Phil I have not fitted a reflexor because I think I would need to cut the
hull for access to make it. But it seems to me that the only reason to have
a reflexor is so that you can improve visibility as in your case on the
final approach. Otherwise the Q flies faster and also flares better for
landing with the aelerons up.

I have been working with aelerons fixed up 3/8" and suffer a slight
visibility issue on late final and flare but flare and cruise are optimum
with the fixed setting.

Peter



_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
britmcman@...
Sent: Monday, 23 October 2006 4:31 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread



870BM had good elevator authority on landing with full down reflexor (Nose
down / tail high - main wing highest lift factor configuration). This gave
best view of runway during approach. Landing was tail wheel first with
elevator controlling attitude. Upon canard touchdown I would pull full up
reflex
(reflex control on right hand).

With this configuration, I suspect the plane could fly at its slowest since
both reflexed ailerons and the elevators presented a high lift wind
configuration. Once on the deck, the switched reflexor assures main wing
won't fly
and tail wheel authority is better assured.

Phil Lankford


britmcman99
 

Peter:

Do you mean to say that you have a unibody Q2 with no split aft of the main
wing? How do you parallel park at the grocery store? :')

I am beginning to realize why you have so much resistance to this mod. You
don't have access to the work site. I liked being able to pitch the nose
down for approach using the reflexor. I can't tell you what reflexor setting
was best for fastest cruise, but having the reflexor makes the plane tuneable
and since N870BM has posted some of the fastest speeds on record, I can't say
that the reflexor system did any harm. Were you able to install the reflexor
mod, you could also install the Jim Bob 6 pack bell crank and you would
probably not regret having done them.

You write that the Q flies faster and also flares better for landing with
the ailerons up. How can it be that the plane flies faster with the ailerons
up, while also, the plane flares better with ailerons up? I think you might
be tricking yourself into believing that both conditions exist with your
present fixed ailerons high condition. In my experience I had no trouble with
landing reflexor full down (nose down/tail high). I always had sufficient
elevator authority to control pitch attitude so that tail wheel landed first and
able to hold the canard off the deck till it settled on. At that point did I
pull full reflexors up to kill any aspirations the main wing had for flight
and to encourage tail wheel authority.

I am really happy to read about your progress with the Jabiru engine. this
could soon become a popular choice for many of the existing Q2s now powered
by Revmaster 2100s.

Cheers,

Phil


britmcman99
 

You wrote:

objective is to get the tailwheel down early and load it with aft elevator
and a stalled canard.

Peter. The elevator is at the wrong end of the craft to make the tail go
down. It has no effect on the downward force applied to the tail. This is
going to turn into a physics class and for some minute degree of force
differences there might be some small amount argued by some.

You are doing something right since you are flying in that Jabiru craft. I
can't knock success, but I still get a since that you absolutely have a
closed mind to the whole 6-pack contributions. In N870BM there was not any reflex
setting that made the aircraft dangerous to fly. Aileron authority was
positive regardless of setting. It just made a lot more things possible and it
definitely helped stick the tail wheel during landing rollout. Your comment
about holding elevator makes me think that your sparrow strainer setting might
be a factor.

How many flight hours do you have on that Jab to-date?

Cheers,

Phil


Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

I have just set my fixed aelerons flush (again). Is anyone else setting
flush aelerons?

Peter



_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
britmcman@...
Sent: Monday, 23 October 2006 10:57 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Re: the Official Runway Distance thread



Q: Is FULL down reflexor on the ailerons, on 870BM, the same aileron
position as planes without a reflexor installed?

A: No. Full down reflexor on N870BM meant that the trailing edges of the
ailerons were about 3/8" up above the main wing.

Phil


Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

Hi Phil,

Yeah I have a Q unibody registered here as a Q-200 because of the J power
and very sexy it is too. I Would hate to cut it.

The way I see it you can get best cruise with aelerons up because that
effectively unloads the canard and reduces induced drag Reading most of
the posts over the years most of the guys report a few more KTS with the
aelerons up ( and therefore the elevator up a touch).

At the same time aelerons up means more elevator authority which makes for a
better flare and easier tailwheel put down. So you see why I get the idea
that the only real advantage of having a reflexor is to adjust the view over
the nose, and this is worth doing too but not to spoil my sexy unibody.
Aelerons up offers the best of both worlds.

I have experimented with fixed aileron up and fixed aileron flush. I have
found a very noticeable loss in elevator authority (scary) with my aelerons
fixed flush (Norton installation) and consequently I set them up 10mm for
the Jab. But now I need to hold the elevator up a few mm at cruise so I have
reset them flush and will fly when the wind stops howling. Optimum setting
might be somewhere in between.

It is a surprise to me how the reflexor was introduced for the Quickie
without apparently any instructions how or when to use it. Can you imagine
Cessna or the others offering such a powerful device without safety
operating instructions? The upshot is that there are many different opinions
on how and when to use it, basically it is hard to find two opinions the
same and that is a concern. I recall big Al complained he lost elevator
authority in the circuit, before he sold the bird and I would guess the
aelerons were down at the time.

I think that there should be a forum to discuss and finalise and set safety
operating instructions for this device. You and I have a different idea how
it works and one of us is wrong. heh heh and it couldn't possibly be me (or
I wouldn't admit it).

As for the bellcrank mod I am not seduced by all the acres of technical
jargon on this subject because the objective has been overlooked. The
objective is to get the tailwheel down early and load it with aft elevator
and a stalled canard. When the tailwheel is down and at rolling speeds the
tiny rudder has negligible effect, because it is completely overwhelmed by
the steering done by the wheel on the deck. I could not justify that
particular mod which introduces 5 more fail points but cheers to those who
like it.

I am in favour of the Gall wheel alignment but not sure how to line bore for
the axle and how to realign the brake assembly. I was in peak overload when
it was first suggested for my Q.

Priority for me right now is to finish running in the Jab. It is still tight
but beginning to go for it.

Cheers,

Peter



_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
britmcman@...
Sent: Monday, 23 October 2006 11:31 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread



Peter:

Do you mean to say that you have a unibody Q2 with no split aft of the main
wing? How do you parallel park at the grocery store? :')

I am beginning to realize why you have so much resistance to this mod. You
don't have access to the work site. I liked being able to pitch the nose
down for approach using the reflexor. I can't tell you what reflexor setting

was best for fastest cruise, but having the reflexor makes the plane
tuneable
and since N870BM has posted some of the fastest speeds on record, I can't
say
that the reflexor system did any harm. Were you able to install the reflexor

mod, you could also install the Jim Bob 6 pack bell crank and you would
probably not regret having done them.

You write that the Q flies faster and also flares better for landing with
the ailerons up. How can it be that the plane flies faster with the ailerons

up, while also, the plane flares better with ailerons up? I think you might
be tricking yourself into believing that both conditions exist with your
present fixed ailerons high condition. In my experience I had no trouble
with
landing reflexor full down (nose down/tail high). I always had sufficient
elevator authority to control pitch attitude so that tail wheel landed first
and
able to hold the canard off the deck till it settled on. At that point did I

pull full reflexors up to kill any aspirations the main wing had for flight
and to encourage tail wheel authority.

I am really happy to read about your progress with the Jabiru engine. this
could soon become a popular choice for many of the existing Q2s now powered
by Revmaster 2100s.

Cheers,

Phil


Peter Harris <peterjfharris@...>
 

Phil,

Only about 15hrs to date with the Jab. Phil the way I see it aft elevator
increases lift on the canard which transfers weight back onto the tail wheel
during rollout and that is what we want for steering. I have explained my
views on some of the 6 pack items and the reasons why and I hope no-one is
offended by that. I think my reasons are OK and I really do believe that it
is time to get a standard operating procedure sorted out for the reflexor.
I think I am not the only one to see a loss of elevator authority due to
flush aelerons. I am happy that the reflexor was not an issue with N870BM
and that may be because they were never flush but always reflexed to some
degree.. I have explained my own experience and will be able to report again
on elevator authority with flush aelerons on VHONQ. The sparrow strainers
have not been altered but I have been operating with more reflex than before
and I think that is probably the cause of the strained wrist. Stay tuned.

Cheers,

Peter



_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
britmcman@...
Sent: Monday, 23 October 2006 3:56 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] the Official Runway Distance thread




You wrote:

objective is to get the tailwheel down early and load it with aft elevator
and a stalled canard.

Peter. The elevator is at the wrong end of the craft to make the tail go
down. It has no effect on the downward force applied to the tail. This is
going to turn into a physics class and for some minute degree of force
differences there might be some small amount argued by some.

You are doing something right since you are flying in that Jabiru craft. I
can't knock success, but I still get a since that you absolutely have a
closed mind to the whole 6-pack contributions. In N870BM there was not any
reflex
setting that made the aircraft dangerous to fly. Aileron authority was
positive regardless of setting. It just made a lot more things possible and
it
definitely helped stick the tail wheel during landing rollout. Your comment
about holding elevator makes me think that your sparrow strainer setting
might
be a factor.

How many flight hours do you have on that Jab to-date?

Cheers,

Phil