Ground Loops


MartinErni@...
 

In a message dated 1/2/2007 7:06:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
larry2@... writes:

The good news is that a GL will NEVER result in
getting a wing tip or cartwheel.


Larry,
I'd be a little more careful with the word never. There is always a way.
Earnest


Larry Severson
 

The fear of ground loops is correct when dealing with ME 109s and Piper Cubs. Wing tip mangling and even cartwheels can result. Narrow gear reduces the number of ground loops, but greatly increase the risk!

The bad news is that the Q, with its excessively wide gear, is easy to ground loop. The good news is that a GL will NEVER result in getting a wing tip or cartwheel. There is no safer plane anywhere when it comes to a GL. In fact, this factor can be a safety factor once it is fully understood.

Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


James Doyle <jdoyle1941@...>
 

The ground loop does not do much damage but its the stuff you run into and off of that causes the damage and it is darned hard to avoid obstacles when you are out of control.

Jim Doyle

----- Original Message -----
From: larry severson
To: Q-LIST@...
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 5:48 PM
Subject: [Q-LIST] Ground Loops


The fear of ground loops is correct when dealing with ME 109s and
Piper Cubs. Wing tip mangling and even cartwheels can result. Narrow
gear reduces the number of ground loops, but greatly increase the risk!

The bad news is that the Q, with its excessively wide gear, is easy
to ground loop. The good news is that a GL will NEVER result in
getting a wing tip or cartwheel. There is no safer plane anywhere
when it comes to a GL. In fact, this factor can be a safety factor
once it is fully understood.

Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...






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Larry Severson
 

The ground loop does not do much damage but its the stuff you run into and off of that causes the damage and it is darned hard to avoid obstacles when you are out of control.
I agree with your statement about out of control; however, I have found that on a dry runway (do we land on any other type?) full right rudder and right brake (or left) will result in an abrupt pivot to the right (or left) and a stop. Due to the design of the Q bird, this is NOT the out of control maneuver that we fear. It is important to keep the full rudder and brake until the plane is stopped, or out of control surely could come into play.

It is popular to say that the Q is not like other planes. But how many of those saying that realize that it really isn't. I would not try this trick with any other plane that I have ever seen. The first time I did it was desperation because I was heading for the weeds AGAIN. I was terrified the whole time due to the abruptness of the maneuver. Plane did a 180 virtually in place, the engine stopped, dust flew, and my heart raced. I got out, turned the plane down the runway towards the taxi way, started the engine, and casually taxied to the barn. Of course, I inspected the plane; but, like QAC published, there was no damage at all. I have 4 flights since then. Now if I can only solve my engine heating problems!


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
 

I have done 2 ground loops (so far). One when the tail wheel broke off on a runway center thumper light and one when the wheel camber got so bad I couldn't stop it. Both were at around 50 mph. In both cases the plane turned 90 degrees to the left and quickly stopped. In both cases the plane continued basically down the centerline. In the first case the tail lifted about 4 feet and at the end of the loop it slammed into the runway and crushed the tail skin just forward of the tail fin. It stops real fast when going sideways.

The Q200 isn't the easiest plane to ground loop but it is the safest to ground loop. Given a choice of hitting the fence at the end of the runway or forcing a ground loop, I'm pushing the left rudder petal to the floor every time!

Have a Safe 2007!
Mike Q200 1000+ hours


larry severson wrote:

The fear of ground loops is correct when dealing with ME 109s and Piper Cubs. Wing tip mangling and even cartwheels can result. Narrow gear reduces the number of ground loops, but greatly increase the risk!

The bad news is that the Q, with its excessively wide gear, is easy to ground loop. The good news is that a GL will NEVER result in getting a wing tip or cartwheel. There is no safer plane anywhere when it comes to a GL. In fact, this factor can be a safety factor once it is fully understood.

Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Richard Hole <rickhole@...>
 

A newcomers comment: this is a very useful thread. Please share your
experiences along with theories and analysis. Thanks.


Larry Severson
 

Larry,
I'd be a little more careful with the word never. There is always a way.
Earnest
If the gear housing is attached properly to the wing tip AND the runway is greater than 50 feet, or you are on the side of the runway away from the direction of the expected GL, it should be impossible to hurt the Q. Of course, Murphy was an optimist!


Larry Severson
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 968-9852
larry2@...


Richard Hole <rickhole@...>
 

My old philosophy prof said, "All generalities are false, including this
one."


If the gear housing is attached properly to the wing tip AND the
runway is greater than 50 feet, or you are on the side of the runway
away from the direction of the expected GL, it should be impossible
to hurt the Q. Of course, Murphy was an optimist!


Mike Perry <dmperry1012@...>
 

This is from the Q2 Pilots Manual put out by QAC:

MINIMIZING THE GROUND ROLL ON LANDING

Under normal conditions, to minimize the landing ground rollout, touchdown
at the minimum speed, maintain directional control with the tailwheel , and
apply brakes until the tailwheel lifts clear of the ground. A further
reduction in ground rollout can be obtained by shutting the engine off
using the ignition switch.

If, after accomplishing these items, the remaining space available for
stopping is still insufficient, you may elect to intentionally groundloop
the aircraft. To do this, apply full rudder and wait patiently; the
aircraft will turn in a circle of ever decreasing radius while lowering the
speed. After about 180-270 deg. of turn, the aircraft will stop. During
flight testing, this maneuver was accomplished without damage to the
aircraft. No tendency to tip over was evident. Carefully inspect the
entire airframe after a groundloop.

CAUTION: This maneuver is not recommended as a normal operation because
of the very high loads imposed on the airframe.

Note the comments on airframe loads; also note this is without differential
brakes.

Mike Perry