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Joseph M Snow <1flashq@...>
Hello Q-listers.
N240JS returned to the airport Monday, 11-1-2010. I have two issues to resolve before calling the DAR: Alternator not charging and wiring an emergency backup battery to the backup ignition circuit. Weight and balance numbers are now within the flight envelope :) With two months to go, I believe I can fly before the first of 2011. Joseph Snow Q2xx, N240JS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
How many amps does the ignition draw in flight? Mine draws 0 when the igniton is on but the engine is not running. You could consider the starting battery is one source of power and the alternator the second...But you'd want a quick indication of an alternator failure, which is easy. Alternator working voltage =14, alternator dead, voltage=12v.
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Mike Q200 N3QP Joseph M Snow wrote:
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Joseph M Snow <1flashq@...>
Hi Mike,
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You must be running an electronic ignition since magnetos would not require any amps or volts. I have not yet received a DAR signoff; so, I don't have a voltage reading during flight. Currently, the volt meter reads between 11.6 and 11.8 volts. Previously, when the alternator was charging, the voltage read between 12 and 14+ volts, amps - between 2-4 amps at idle to moderate rpms. Most likely, I believe one of the connections is bad or wrong. I am using a John Deere, permanent magnet alternator and regulator. I will post a report when I get it sorted out. On one occasion during a night flight, I failed to activate the alternator switch which sends power to the alternator field. The engine was fine running on magnetos. But, lights got dim, radio transmissions were weak, nav flags started appearing, etc. So, on that one occasion, I had lost the alternator and was loosing the battery. Obviously, I survived the situation. Since my engine runs on a distributor, the engine will continue to run until about 6 volts. Also, I am not sure I can operate simultanously the emergency hand pump, fly the airplane and cope with an electrical failure adequately. So, a backup emergency battery wired to run the ignition and help transfer the fuel to the header seems prudent to me. Joseph
--- On Tue, 11/2/10, Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...> wrote:
From: Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...> Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Progress To: Q-LIST@... Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 6:59 PM How many amps does the ignition draw in flight? Mine draws 0 when the igniton is on but the engine is not running. You could consider the starting battery is one source of power and the alternator the second...But you'd want a quick indication of an alternator failure, which is easy. Alternator working voltage =14, alternator dead, voltage=12v. Mike Q200 N3QP Joseph M Snow wrote:
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Isaksson Roger <scratchdeeper@...>
Joseph,
If you have a permanent magneto generator, you can't have an alternator field, I dont know if you just made a mis statement or if there is any data I am missing. Car alternators have no magnets, they have a coil that is spinning in the middle, that is charged up by a current, thus creating a magnetic field in that way. A permanent magneto alternator have simply replaced that coil system with magnets, and are picking up a magnetic flux field in that way. That style magnetic alternators, gives typically 10 to 15 Amp, but should hold battery charging voltage of 13.6V ( some claims 13.8V), an elelctronic ignition takes between 2 to 4 Amps depending on brand, and an alternator of that size should easily be able to hold charging voltage. The description of 11.6 or 11.8 Volt means that the battery is not charging. (You might want to check your Voltage meter as well, with a good MultiMeter, also check the reading at the generator, as a lower reading at your instrument might be because of resistance loss in your wiring.) To me this looks a little bit like you have burned a diod. All alternators, or permanent magnet generators are producing AC current, that are rectified into DC current in a long number of fashions, but diods are always at the heart of that operation. The most efficient generators are the three phase type, most cars have that layout, and I am pretty sure you have that too. Occasionally a diod is burned out, and your symptoms, from the little you described seems to fit in pretty well, ( you need to have it checked out by a person competent in diagnosing a bad diod) In a three phase generator, you have three sources sending AC to a diodbridge, if one is dead, usually you get a drop in Voltage, about as much as you described, it varies a bit, but you are in the ballpark......and, as you describe, you still have some voltage, but you don't have an Amp push...meaning stuff goes flat, you cant keep up lamps, battery levels etc....you just don't have much oomp in charging the system. If I would know the wiring of your generator I could give you a better clue, as to how to go about and diagnose it, but as you are where you are , and I am not there, I would say, get hold of someone that knows how to tell if you have a bad diod or not. With bad charging, all other components starts to act up, but don't rip your Fuel Injector apart and start tracing components or send your radio to the shop just yet. However you turn it, 11.6 or 11.8 Volts says it righ there. 13.6 or 13.8 Volt is what you need to see, before you take flight. Good luck Roger ________________________________ From: Joseph M Snow <1flashq@...> To: Q-LIST@... Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 7:54:48 PM Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Progress Hi Mike, You must be running an electronic ignition since magnetos would not require any amps or volts. I have not yet received a DAR signoff; so, I don't have a voltage reading during flight. Currently, the volt meter reads between 11.6 and 11.8 volts. Previously, when the alternator was charging, the voltage read between 12 and 14+ volts, amps - between 2-4 amps at idle to moderate rpms. Most likely, I believe one of the connections is bad or wrong. I am using a John Deere, permanent magnet alternator and regulator. I will post a report when I get it sorted out. On one occasion during a night flight, I failed to activate the alternator switch which sends power to the alternator field. The engine was fine running on magnetos. But, lights got dim, radio transmissions were weak, nav flags started appearing, etc. So, on that one occasion, I had lost the alternator and was loosing the battery. Obviously, I survived the situation. Since my engine runs on a distributor, the engine will continue to run until about 6 volts. Also, I am not sure I can operate simultanously the emergency hand pump, fly the airplane and cope with an electrical failure adequately. So, a backup emergency battery wired to run the ignition and help transfer the fuel to the header seems prudent to me. Joseph --- On Tue, 11/2/10, Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...> wrote: From: Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...> Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Progress To: Q-LIST@... Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 6:59 PM How many amps does the ignition draw in flight? Mine draws 0 when the igniton is on but the engine is not running. You could consider the starting battery is one source of power and the alternator the second...But you'd want a quick indication of an alternator failure, which is easy. Alternator working voltage =14, alternator dead, voltage=12v. Mike Q200 N3QP Joseph M Snow wrote: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Rick Hole
Alternators can be expected to produce 13-14 volts at anything above idle,
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though yours may be a pip-squeak (not saying it is less than adequate for your need). But battery voltage below 12.2V indicates a discharged battery, and 11.6 (after being charged) may indicate a worn out battery. When using a magneto, battery voltage is irrelevant. The mag generates its own power. Rick _____ From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of Joseph M Snow Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 10:55 PM To: Q-LIST@... Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Progress Hi Mike, You must be running an electronic ignition since magnetos would not require any amps or volts. I have not yet received a DAR signoff; so, I don't have a voltage reading during flight. Currently, the volt meter reads between 11.6 and 11.8 volts. Previously, when the alternator was charging, the voltage read between 12 and 14+ volts, amps - between 2-4 amps at idle to moderate rpms. Most likely, I believe one of the connections is bad or wrong. I am using a John Deere, permanent magnet alternator and regulator. I will post a report when I get it sorted out. On one occasion during a night flight, I failed to activate the alternator switch which sends power to the alternator field. The engine was fine running on magnetos. But, lights got dim, radio transmissions were weak, nav flags started appearing, etc. So, on that one occasion, I had lost the alternator and was loosing the battery. Obviously, I survived the situation. Since my engine runs on a distributor, the engine will continue to run until about 6 volts. Also, I am not sure I can operate simultanously the emergency hand pump, fly the airplane and cope with an electrical failure adequately. So, a backup emergency battery wired to run the ignition and help transfer the fuel to the header seems prudent to me. Joseph
--- On Tue, 11/2/10, Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...
<mailto:mdwyer%40tampabay.rr.com> > wrote: From: Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@... <mailto:mdwyer%40tampabay.rr.com> > Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Progress To: Q-LIST@... <mailto:Q-LIST%40yahoogroups.com> Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 6:59 PM How many amps does the ignition draw in flight? Mine draws 0 when the igniton is on but the engine is not running. You could consider the starting battery is one source of power and the alternator the second...But you'd want a quick indication of an alternator failure, which is easy. Alternator working voltage =14, alternator dead, voltage=12v. Mike Q200 N3QP Joseph M Snow wrote: resolve before calling the DAR: Alternator not charging and wiring an emergency backup battery to the backup ignition circuit. Weight and balance numbers are now within the flight envelope :) With two months to go, I believe I can fly before the first of 2011.
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Fisher Paul A. <fisherpaula@...>
Joseph,
If you are electrically dependant, I suggest you should have an indicator that your alternator has failed. I have one built into my alternator regulator, but there are also these stand alone devices: http://www.periheliondesign.com/moreproductsfiles/LV_Annunciator%20Manual.pdf http://www.bandc.biz/overunder-voltagesensor.aspx Once you have positive indication that your alternator has failed, you can calmly take appropriate action (turn off lights and radios and find a place to land) well before you have a need for alternate batteries. Having the lights go dim is indeed an accurate indication of alternator failure, it’s just too late! Sorry if I’m preaching, but I’m a confirmed “Nuckoll-head” (www.aeroelectric.com<http://www.aeroelectric.com>) and I believe in Bob’s architectural design principles. One of which is losing your alternator should not be a “white knuckle” event – you simply execute the plan B that you have designed into your system. Paul A. Fisher Q-200, N17PF From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of Joseph M Snow Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 21:55 To: Q-LIST@... Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Progress …snip… On one occasion during a night flight, I failed to activate the alternator switch which sends power to the alternator field. The engine was fine running on magnetos. But, lights got dim, radio transmissions were weak, nav flags started appearing, etc. So, on that one occasion, I had lost the alternator and was loosing the battery. Obviously, I survived the situation. …snip…
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Mike Perry
Hello Joseph:
I second what Paul wrote: you need an indicator the alternator has failed if you are electrically dependent. One option is the Electronics International Volt/Amp meter with discharge alarm, AS 10-00809. I've seen others over the years but couldn't find them this AM. Mike Perry On 11/3/2010 5:14 AM, Fisher Paul A. wrote:
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Joseph M Snow <1flashq@...>
Mike,
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I have a red annunciator light squarely in front of me which flashes if the alternator is not charging. It is part of the Dynon Engine Management System, EMS-D10. There is an annoying auditory beep which continues until I resolve the issue. Joseph
--- On Wed, 11/3/10, Mike Perry <dmperry1012@...> wrote:
From: Mike Perry <dmperry1012@...> Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Progress To: Q-LIST@... Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 1:01 PM Hello Joseph: I second what Paul wrote: you need an indicator the alternator has failed if you are electrically dependent. One option is the Electronics International Volt/Amp meter with discharge alarm, AS 10-00809. I've seen others over the years but couldn't find them this AM. Mike Perry On 11/3/2010 5:14 AM, Fisher Paul A. wrote: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Isaksson Roger <scratchdeeper@...>
An "Idiot lamp" that goes on when the alternator is not charging, in car
applications, it is a basic wiring that is easy to duplicate into an aircraft alternator. A permanent magnet generator is a bit of another animal though, but a combination Amp and Volt meter would tell the story as good as anything. An Amp and a Volt meter is very helpful instrumentation to have, no matter if you have a primary winding (like a car alternator) or permanent magnet alternator. They will become even more important so, if you have electronic ignition and electronic fuel injection. Even so, gauges does not get your attention in the same way as an indication light will, so for you that doesn't already have it, here is how to install the alternator charge "idiot light". Find a plus source that will be permanently on, after the ignition key is turned on, with a wire, go through a small incator lamp that you mount on the dashboard, with another wire, connect to the alternators primary winding. (That is...NOT...the main feed out from the alternator, more on that later) When the alternator is producing, it will go to plus, and cancel out the feed, and the lamp will be out. The lamp will now se plus, plus, on each side, and have no current going through it. When the alternator don't produce anything, the plus current from the permanent plus, will go through the lamp, see the alternator as ground, thus complete a circuit and light up, and indicate no alternator feed. In many car applications, the plus feed coming from the permanent plus, going through the indicator lamp, is used as the flash current to the alternator, creating the first magnetic flux field that starts up the alternator primary winding, thus getting the secondary windings up and running, producing chargeable current to the aircraft ( car ,, boat or whatever). An LED can be used, but usually they are low voltage units, and need to be choked down with a resistor to be able to operate in the voltage range, thus making the circuit to the generators primary coil less prone to flash the coil, it can of course be engineered around and are done so in cars, but to avoid all complexity use a 12V incandecent light, and in that case the whole installation will be a piece of cake. The whole operation will consist of..........two wires and a light bulb. To connect to a constant plus when the ignition is on, .... piece of cake,..... installing an indication bulb on the dashboard, .... piece of cake,.... the only challenge is to find the right terminal on the alternator, but once you have found it, ....congratulations....you're done. A good tip is to look over a couple of wiring diagrams in old car repair manuals for the type of alternator you have, and see where you need to connect, as there is a big variety of connections and wiring patterns for different alternators. Some alternators have a separate terminal for the indication light, some you need to splice in, and some you need to replace the existing primary feed with the lamp circuit, etc, that is knowledge that comes with your particular alternator, but as long as you have the basics, you know what to ask or look for. If you want to do go the trial end error way, get a 12V bulb, that you attach two wires to, that have a crocodile clip on each end of each wire.. Put one crocodile clip on the plus side of the battery, find a terminal that will light up when you clip it on the alternator, start the engine, and see if the light went out. Alternatively you can ask at a car shop that do electric repairs also. On occasion you can get advice in car parts stores also , but I try to avoid it, ....the car part store chimps can tell you anything....well you know that already. You should be able to do the whole installation without taking anything apart, it should pretty much be a clip on, type intallation. Good luck Roger ________________________________ From: Mike Perry <dmperry1012@...> To: Q-LIST@... Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 10:01:49 AM Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Progress Hello Joseph: I second what Paul wrote: you need an indicator the alternator has failed if you are electrically dependent. One option is the Electronics International Volt/Amp meter with discharge alarm, AS 10-00809. I've seen others over the years but couldn't find them this AM. Mike Perry On 11/3/2010 5:14 AM, Fisher Paul A. wrote: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Joseph,
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I guess you can say I am "electric dependent" as well. I run dual electronic Lightspeed ignitions and also have an interest in the alternator working or not. My plane is wired with two independent battery systems that both get charged via the 60 amp alternator. The plane can run on one or both. Both systems have seperate volt/amp meters so I know at all times how much charge is in each battery. I have an amber light that comes on steady when the ignition is turned on and goes off at 900 rpms indicating charging. If I'm flying along and that light comes on, its time to pull over and investigate. I have about 700 hundred hours on this ignition system and it has worked fine so far. No changes have been made since installation. You just have to be exactly sure how your electrical charging system functions. I use a Concorde 25ah and Panasonic 7.2ah battery which is more than adequate. The Plasma's operate on very low amperage (1.4 amps per hour, ea). If I have a charge failure, it should be seen first in the radios, transponder, lights etc. not the ignitions. Regards, Jim Q200 In Q-LIST@..., Joseph M Snow <1flashq@...> wrote:
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Joseph M Snow <1flashq@...>
Paul, Roger, Rick, Jim;
I think I have confused my current issue by adding an unrelated event that happened a long time ago. The night flight happened about twenty-five years ago in a rented, normal category aircraft.The panel was loaded with everything, lights and indicators everywhere. I must be a real idiot, because I did not see the alternator annunciator (idiot) light flashing. Fatigue was a factor, also I have the 7th edition of Bob Nuchols' "The Aero-Electric Connection" manual. There is a procedure on page 3-7 for permanent magnet fault isolation. I already have an alternator annunciator light which is flashing and telling me the alternator is not charging as confirmed by the low voltage readings Jim, I am interested in the two battery system you described. I have the two batteries in place. Do you have a battery isolator which allows both batteries to be charged?(e.g. http://www.bargainoutfitters.com/net/cb/NOCO-Installation-Kit-for-CS-Alternators.aspx?a=426284&kwtid=255597&pm2d=CSE-BO-8-BING) Also, I am thinking of running only the backup ignition and the transfer fuel pump (seat tank to header) from an emergency buss connected to the backup battery. Selection of backup ignition or backup power for the fuel pump would be accomplished by switches. Do you have an electrical drawing of your emergency battery system? Joseph
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Mike Perry
Electrical drawing of emergency battery system from Light Speed Engineering:
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http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Manuals/PS_Diagram.htm I would consider adding a second voltmeter and eliminating the power select switch for Ignition B. You could look around Klaus' site for other ideas (the manuals and diagrams are downloadable). Mike Perry
On 11/4/2010 9:37 AM, Joseph M Snow wrote:
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Joseph M Snow <1flashq@...>
Hi Mike,
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I downloaded the diagram from Lightspeed. Enjoyed looking around the site. Thanks, Joseph
--- On Thu, 11/4/10, Mike Perry <dmperry1012@...> wrote:
From: Mike Perry <dmperry1012@...> Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Progress To: Q-LIST@... Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 1:32 PM Electrical drawing of emergency battery system from Light Speed Engineering: http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Manuals/PS_Diagram.htm I would consider adding a second voltmeter and eliminating the power select switch for Ignition B. You could look around Klaus' site for other ideas (the manuals and diagrams are downloadable). Mike Perry On 11/4/2010 9:37 AM, Joseph M Snow wrote: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
That circuit isn't bad but just remember to check the ignition on the backup battery as part of the mag type check.
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Also, those little lead acid batteries go bad slowly over a couple of years so you may want to replace the backup battery on a periodic basis. Mike Q200 N3QP Joseph M Snow wrote:
Hi Mike,
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Joseph M Snow <1flashq@...>
Not a bad idea. I was thinking about replacing a battery every other year.
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Joseph
--- On Thu, 11/4/10, Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...> wrote:
From: Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...> Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Progress To: Q-LIST@... Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 6:47 PM That circuit isn't bad but just remember to check the ignition on the backup battery as part of the mag type check. Also, those little lead acid batteries go bad slowly over a couple of years so you may want to replace the backup battery on a periodic basis. Mike Q200 N3QP Joseph M Snow wrote: Hi Mike, [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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