Pattern Flying and Reports


Jon Finley <jon@...>
 

Hi all,



This sounds like a gripe-session but I really do not mean it that way.
Perhaps this is the CFI in me coming out - I dunno. If any of you fall into
these scenario's, I hope that you will think about it and that perhaps it
will affect your flying practices.



A nearby airport had a pancake breakfast this past Saturday. Judging from
the radio traffic, it was quite busy so I flew around for awhile just
listening and enjoying the air before approaching/landing. I very
definitely get spoiled with VERY little traffic in the pattern (at most of
the airports that I frequent) or I know the guys flying and know what they
are going to do.



Based on what I observed at this fly-in, I'd like to remind everyone of a
couple things:

1. Accurate position reports are SUPER important.

2. Ideally, you should always be within gliding distance of the runway
while in the pattern.

3. Listen.



The second one is no big deal cause I like flying, an extra 5 minutes in the
air is nothing. The trouble starts when there are several of us in the
pattern all trying to slow down and do 360's - ya got airplanes flying all
over the place. I am amazed at the patterns that some people fly (and it
seems they were taught to fly that way). I understand that lots of traffic
will mess this up and that larger, faster airplanes do require more space.
The classic here is the CT that likes to fly downwind two miles out from the
runway and three miles past the approach end out before turning base, all
while doing about 40 kts (feels like it). A week or two ago, I was calling
5 miles out (entering on the upwind) while this person was calling downwind.
Knowing what was going to happen, I slowed down but still had to fly THREE
360's on downwind for spacing. It is worth noting that there is another CT
here that does not cause any problems. There are also a number of
"ultralights" that cause nearly zero traffic disruption (they keep their
speed up and keep the pattern tight).



The first one was a bit of a surprise to me as I haven't just sat back and
listened to radio chatter for that long of a period before. This particular
airport (E80) sits on a mesa, has an escarpment to the east AND west and
also has a river to the east AND west (both running north and south for many
miles). Many people were calling "three miles out over the
river/escarpment" or some variation. Given this situation, that report is
useless. Another kewl one was "Cessna xxx, abeam the numbers starting my
descent" - what?? What is that? Finally, "Cessna xxx, downwind for 22."
Sadly, there is no 22 at this airport and everyone was using 03 (yes, his
transmission stated that he was at "this" airport). I think most everyone
flies with a GPS these days and this makes position reports so easy (5 miles
northeast, 7500').



The nervous pilot is a classic, IMO. This fellow reports three miles north.
Another pilot then reports 5 miles east. The nervous pilot immediately
responds and asks the second pilot where he is. What?? He JUST told you!
Listening is as important as talking. Yes, I understanding missing someone
else's transmission and asking for clarification. This particular fellow
was asking EVERY airplane where they were after they reported where they
were!! Talk about messing up the radio traffic - he was doing it!



Out of curiosity, I noted some visual clues upon return to my home airport
(E98) and I measured the distance to these items from the runway threshold
using Google Earth. My typical (no traffic) downwind is .25 miles from the
runway, base is .5 miles from the runway. Even that tight , depending on
where the engine failure were to occur, and wind; my Q2 may or may not glide
to the runway.



A good test (no traffic, be careful, etc.) that you can perform to get an
idea if your patterns are overly large is to pull the power to idle when
abeam the numbers and fly your normal pattern (apply power when it is
obvious you are not going to make the runway/before impacting the ground).
If you make it to the numbers without power - NICE WORK - GOOD PATTERN!!



Jon Finley

N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22

http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx


Mike Dwyer <mdwyer@...>
 

Amen! Preach it brother Jon!



Jon Finley wrote:

Hi all,


This sounds like a gripe-session but I really do not mean it that way.
Perhaps this is the CFI in me coming out - I dunno. If any of you fall into
these scenario's, I hope that you will think about it and that perhaps it
will affect your flying practices.

A nearby airport had a pancake breakfast this past Saturday. Judging from
the radio traffic, it was quite busy so I flew around for awhile just
listening and enjoying the air before approaching/landing. I very
definitely get spoiled with VERY little traffic in the pattern (at most of
the airports that I frequent) or I know the guys flying and know what they
are going to do.

Based on what I observed at this fly-in, I'd like to remind everyone of a
couple things:

1. Accurate position reports are SUPER important.

2. Ideally, you should always be within gliding distance of the runway
while in the pattern.
3. Listen.


The second one is no big deal cause I like flying, an extra 5 minutes in the
air is nothing. The trouble starts when there are several of us in the
pattern all trying to slow down and do 360's - ya got airplanes flying all
over the place. I am amazed at the patterns that some people fly (and it
seems they were taught to fly that way). I understand that lots of traffic
will mess this up and that larger, faster airplanes do require more space.
The classic here is the CT that likes to fly downwind two miles out from the
runway and three miles past the approach end out before turning base, all
while doing about 40 kts (feels like it). A week or two ago, I was calling
5 miles out (entering on the upwind) while this person was calling downwind.
Knowing what was going to happen, I slowed down but still had to fly THREE
360's on downwind for spacing. It is worth noting that there is another CT
here that does not cause any problems. There are also a number of
"ultralights" that cause nearly zero traffic disruption (they keep their
speed up and keep the pattern tight).


The first one was a bit of a surprise to me as I haven't just sat back and
listened to radio chatter for that long of a period before. This particular
airport (E80) sits on a mesa, has an escarpment to the east AND west and
also has a river to the east AND west (both running north and south for many
miles). Many people were calling "three miles out over the
river/escarpment" or some variation. Given this situation, that report is
useless. Another kewl one was "Cessna xxx, abeam the numbers starting my
descent" - what?? What is that? Finally, "Cessna xxx, downwind for 22."
Sadly, there is no 22 at this airport and everyone was using 03 (yes, his
transmission stated that he was at "this" airport). I think most everyone
flies with a GPS these days and this makes position reports so easy (5 miles
northeast, 7500').


The nervous pilot is a classic, IMO. This fellow reports three miles north.
Another pilot then reports 5 miles east. The nervous pilot immediately
responds and asks the second pilot where he is. What?? He JUST told you!
Listening is as important as talking. Yes, I understanding missing someone
else's transmission and asking for clarification. This particular fellow
was asking EVERY airplane where they were after they reported where they
were!! Talk about messing up the radio traffic - he was doing it!


Out of curiosity, I noted some visual clues upon return to my home airport
(E98) and I measured the distance to these items from the runway threshold
using Google Earth. My typical (no traffic) downwind is .25 miles from the
runway, base is .5 miles from the runway. Even that tight , depending on
where the engine failure were to occur, and wind; my Q2 may or may not glide
to the runway.


A good test (no traffic, be careful, etc.) that you can perform to get an
idea if your patterns are overly large is to pull the power to idle when
abeam the numbers and fly your normal pattern (apply power when it is
obvious you are not going to make the runway/before impacting the ground).
If you make it to the numbers without power - NICE WORK - GOOD PATTERN!!


Jon Finley

N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22

http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx







------------------------------------

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links





Rick Hole
 

Ditto your comments. I also work from an untowered field and note how
sloppy radio calls can get. Often times they say nothing of use in telling
other traffic where and what is happening. Three of my peeves:

"Taking the active." This tells nothing, all runways are active at pilot's
discretion. Please tell which runway!

"Any traffic in the pattern please advise." One of the few radio
transmission the FAA specifically asks us NOT to send. Simply give your own
location and intentions and that will prompt other traffic to advise.

Chatting on CTAF. It is not a party line.

Rick


Bruce Crain
 

Amen Jon! And I second the motion! Maybe a CD on proper pattern transmissions would help when folks start learning to fly. That would be of great value. Then perhaps a bantering back and forth with their instructor while flying a toy airplane into a class B, C, and D airspace would be of efficacious also. "Honey Lamb" and I were almost run over at Oshkosh (of all places for a novice to enter) by a Baron when he entered the pattern totally with out the NOTAMs. He just barreled his way straight in from no where and then pulled over into our final approach. The tower didn't see him enter straight in from the south and cut us off our base leg. Then they moved him over to our side (2 runways). He keyed the mic and said "but there is a plane over there" and then he pulled over and we moved over to avoid being run down by him. The tower had obviously not seen us either as they said "good job Baron". If Joanne had not seen him from her side we would have been toast. Pattern work, see and avoid, a radio transmissions are of much more importance than we know. If you don't know how to communicate (and listen) get some help. Someone is out there that can help.Bruce ---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Jon Finley" <jon@...>
To: <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: [Q-LIST] Pattern Flying and Reports
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 08:44:30 -0700


Hi all,

This sounds like a gripe-session but I really do not mean it that way.
Perhaps this is the CFI in me coming out - I dunno. If any of you fall into
these scenario's, I hope that you will think about it and that perhaps it
will affect your flying practices.

A nearby airport had a pancake breakfast this past Saturday. Judging from
the radio traffic, it was quite busy so I flew around for awhile just
listening and enjoying the air before approaching/landing. I very
definitely get spoiled with VERY little traffic in the pattern (at most of
the airports that I frequent) or I know the guys flying and know what they
are going to do.

Based on what I observed at this fly-in, I'd like to remind everyone of a
couple things:

1. Accurate position reports are SUPER important.

2. Ideally, you should always be within gliding distance of the runway
while in the pattern.

3. Listen.

The second one is no big deal cause I like flying, an extra 5 minutes in the
air is nothing. The trouble starts when there are several of us in the
pattern all trying to slow down and do 360's - ya got airplanes flying all
over the place. I am amazed at the patterns that some people fly (and it
seems they were taught to fly that way). I understand that lots of traffic
will mess this up and that larger, faster airplanes do require more space.
The classic here is the CT that likes to fly downwind two miles out from the
runway and three miles past the approach end out before turning base, all
while doing about 40 kts (feels like it). A week or two ago, I was calling
5 miles out (entering on the upwind) while this person was calling downwind.
Knowing what was going to happen, I slowed down but still had to fly THREE
360's on downwind for spacing. It is worth noting that there is another CT
here that does not cause any problems. There are also a number of
"ultralights" that cause nearly zero traffic disruption (they keep their
speed up and keep the pattern tight).

The first one was a bit of a surprise to me as I haven't just sat back and
listened to radio chatter for that long of a period before. This particular
airport (E80) sits on a mesa, has an escarpment to the east AND west and
also has a river to the east AND west (both running north and south for many
miles). Many people were calling "three miles out over the
river/escarpment" or some variation. Given this situation, that report is
useless. Another kewl one was "Cessna xxx, abeam the numbers starting my
descent" - what?? What is that? Finally, "Cessna xxx, downwind for 22."
Sadly, there is no 22 at this airport and everyone was using 03 (yes, his
transmission stated that he was at "this" airport). I think most everyone
flies with a GPS these days and this makes position reports so easy (5 miles
northeast, 7500').

The nervous pilot is a classic, IMO. This fellow reports three miles north.
Another pilot then reports 5 miles east. The nervous pilot immediately
responds and asks the second pilot where he is. What?? He JUST told you!
Listening is as important as talking. Yes, I understanding missing someone
else's transmission and asking for clarification. This particular fellow
was asking EVERY airplane where they were after they reported where they
were!! Talk about messing up the radio traffic - he was doing it!

Out of curiosity, I noted some visual clues upon return to my home airport
(E98) and I measured the distance to these items from the runway threshold
using Google Earth. My typical (no traffic) downwind is .25 miles from the
runway, base is .5 miles from the runway. Even that tight , depending on
where the engine failure were to occur, and wind; my Q2 may or may not glide
to the runway.

A good test (no traffic, be careful, etc.) that you can perform to get an
idea if your patterns are overly large is to pull the power to idle when
abeam the numbers and fly your normal pattern (apply power when it is
obvious you are not going to make the runway/before impacting the ground).
If you make it to the numbers without power - NICE WORK - GOOD PATTERN!!

Jon Finley

N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22

http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx





____________________________________________________________
Moms Asked to Return to School
Grant Funding May Be Available to Those That Qualify.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4ce039072f20d1f718est06vuc


Jay Scheevel <scheevel@...>
 

Hi John,

Probably seems obvious, but let me add to your rant. Small uncontrolled
airports, especially in the Midwest are home to a lot of slow planes that do
not have radios/electrical systems, so there are NO position reports. Need
to keep the head out of the airplane, and look out for the guy without a
position report (or a clue). I was trained to always fly a proper pattern,
so I always do that, but plenty of folks aren't or don't. I flew to
Blakesburg this year (Antique Aircraft Assn. annual flyin) where there is no
radio usage at the field. Talk about chaos. It was all the pilots you just
described with no one on the horn. On one of my 4 go arounds (to avoid other
aircraft), there was even a Waco flying the wrong direction on downwind! On
my third final a Bonanza dropped down next to me and went in to land. He
never saw me and I fly a white and red Cherokee! I said "Looks like he wants
it more than me!", so I pulled up and went around again. Glad he didn't let
down on top of me. Be careful out there guys, especially at flyins.

Cheers,
Jay Scheevel -- Tri-Q still building


quickheads2 <groups@...>
 

Thanks for this Jon,
I was out in a SPAM can at my single 2000 ft runway non-towered airport this weekend with four other planes in the pattern. We were all communicating just fine, but there are several other non-towered airports in the area on the same frequency. The guys at the other airport wer actually preventing us from communicating due to "lively banter" between good ol' buddies, and a "nervous nellie" who kept stumbling over his words. There were A LOT of "Uhms and Ahs" and lengthy pauses in between each word and he kept the mic button pressed the whole time!

Be careful out there fellas! Bruce: sounds like you owe Honey Lamb a new pair of shoes, a dozen roses, and a nice dinner out! ;-)

Cheers,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Jon Finley" <jon@...> wrote:

Hi all,



This sounds like a gripe-session but I really do not mean it that way.
Perhaps this is the CFI in me coming out - I dunno. If any of you fall into
these scenario's, I hope that you will think about it and that perhaps it
will affect your flying practices.



A nearby airport had a pancake breakfast this past Saturday. Judging from
the radio traffic, it was quite busy so I flew around for awhile just
listening and enjoying the air before approaching/landing. I very
definitely get spoiled with VERY little traffic in the pattern (at most of
the airports that I frequent) or I know the guys flying and know what they
are going to do.



Based on what I observed at this fly-in, I'd like to remind everyone of a
couple things:

1. Accurate position reports are SUPER important.

2. Ideally, you should always be within gliding distance of the runway
while in the pattern.

3. Listen.



The second one is no big deal cause I like flying, an extra 5 minutes in the
air is nothing. The trouble starts when there are several of us in the
pattern all trying to slow down and do 360's - ya got airplanes flying all
over the place. I am amazed at the patterns that some people fly (and it
seems they were taught to fly that way). I understand that lots of traffic
will mess this up and that larger, faster airplanes do require more space.
The classic here is the CT that likes to fly downwind two miles out from the
runway and three miles past the approach end out before turning base, all
while doing about 40 kts (feels like it). A week or two ago, I was calling
5 miles out (entering on the upwind) while this person was calling downwind.
Knowing what was going to happen, I slowed down but still had to fly THREE
360's on downwind for spacing. It is worth noting that there is another CT
here that does not cause any problems. There are also a number of
"ultralights" that cause nearly zero traffic disruption (they keep their
speed up and keep the pattern tight).



The first one was a bit of a surprise to me as I haven't just sat back and
listened to radio chatter for that long of a period before. This particular
airport (E80) sits on a mesa, has an escarpment to the east AND west and
also has a river to the east AND west (both running north and south for many
miles). Many people were calling "three miles out over the
river/escarpment" or some variation. Given this situation, that report is
useless. Another kewl one was "Cessna xxx, abeam the numbers starting my
descent" - what?? What is that? Finally, "Cessna xxx, downwind for 22."
Sadly, there is no 22 at this airport and everyone was using 03 (yes, his
transmission stated that he was at "this" airport). I think most everyone
flies with a GPS these days and this makes position reports so easy (5 miles
northeast, 7500').



The nervous pilot is a classic, IMO. This fellow reports three miles north.
Another pilot then reports 5 miles east. The nervous pilot immediately
responds and asks the second pilot where he is. What?? He JUST told you!
Listening is as important as talking. Yes, I understanding missing someone
else's transmission and asking for clarification. This particular fellow
was asking EVERY airplane where they were after they reported where they
were!! Talk about messing up the radio traffic - he was doing it!



Out of curiosity, I noted some visual clues upon return to my home airport
(E98) and I measured the distance to these items from the runway threshold
using Google Earth. My typical (no traffic) downwind is .25 miles from the
runway, base is .5 miles from the runway. Even that tight , depending on
where the engine failure were to occur, and wind; my Q2 may or may not glide
to the runway.



A good test (no traffic, be careful, etc.) that you can perform to get an
idea if your patterns are overly large is to pull the power to idle when
abeam the numbers and fly your normal pattern (apply power when it is
obvious you are not going to make the runway/before impacting the ground).
If you make it to the numbers without power - NICE WORK - GOOD PATTERN!!



Jon Finley

N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22

http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx







Bruce Crain
 

Doh! You're settin' the bar a little high there aren't you Jon! She's hoping to get to fly to Phoenix for Thanksgiving if the weather is good. Maybe that will appease?Bruce
Be careful out there fellas! Bruce: sounds like you owe Honey Lamb a new pair of shoes, a dozen roses, and a nice dinner out! ;-)

Cheers,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com
____________________________________________________________
Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance
If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4ce13fd41860420d30bst04vuc


Chris Adkins
 

Jon,
That wasn't a "gripe-session", that was the entire definition of flying the
pattern boiled down into a few concise paragraphs with real world examples.
Something many CFIs don't seem to be able to convey.

I, for one, thank you.

Chris Adkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Jon Finley
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 10:45 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Pattern Flying and Reports

Hi all,



This sounds like a gripe-session but I really do not mean it that way.
Perhaps this is the CFI in me coming out - I dunno. If any of you fall into
these scenario's, I hope that you will think about it and that perhaps it
will affect your flying practices.



A nearby airport had a pancake breakfast this past Saturday. Judging from
the radio traffic, it was quite busy so I flew around for awhile just
listening and enjoying the air before approaching/landing. I very
definitely get spoiled with VERY little traffic in the pattern (at most of
the airports that I frequent) or I know the guys flying and know what they
are going to do.



Based on what I observed at this fly-in, I'd like to remind everyone of a
couple things:

1. Accurate position reports are SUPER important.

2. Ideally, you should always be within gliding distance of the runway
while in the pattern.

3. Listen.



The second one is no big deal cause I like flying, an extra 5 minutes in the
air is nothing. The trouble starts when there are several of us in the
pattern all trying to slow down and do 360's - ya got airplanes flying all
over the place. I am amazed at the patterns that some people fly (and it
seems they were taught to fly that way). I understand that lots of traffic
will mess this up and that larger, faster airplanes do require more space.
The classic here is the CT that likes to fly downwind two miles out from the
runway and three miles past the approach end out before turning base, all
while doing about 40 kts (feels like it). A week or two ago, I was calling
5 miles out (entering on the upwind) while this person was calling downwind.
Knowing what was going to happen, I slowed down but still had to fly THREE
360's on downwind for spacing. It is worth noting that there is another CT
here that does not cause any problems. There are also a number of
"ultralights" that cause nearly zero traffic disruption (they keep their
speed up and keep the pattern tight).



The first one was a bit of a surprise to me as I haven't just sat back and
listened to radio chatter for that long of a period before. This particular
airport (E80) sits on a mesa, has an escarpment to the east AND west and
also has a river to the east AND west (both running north and south for many
miles). Many people were calling "three miles out over the
river/escarpment" or some variation. Given this situation, that report is
useless. Another kewl one was "Cessna xxx, abeam the numbers starting my
descent" - what?? What is that? Finally, "Cessna xxx, downwind for 22."
Sadly, there is no 22 at this airport and everyone was using 03 (yes, his
transmission stated that he was at "this" airport). I think most everyone
flies with a GPS these days and this makes position reports so easy (5 miles
northeast, 7500').



The nervous pilot is a classic, IMO. This fellow reports three miles north.
Another pilot then reports 5 miles east. The nervous pilot immediately
responds and asks the second pilot where he is. What?? He JUST told you!
Listening is as important as talking. Yes, I understanding missing someone
else's transmission and asking for clarification. This particular fellow
was asking EVERY airplane where they were after they reported where they
were!! Talk about messing up the radio traffic - he was doing it!



Out of curiosity, I noted some visual clues upon return to my home airport
(E98) and I measured the distance to these items from the runway threshold
using Google Earth. My typical (no traffic) downwind is .25 miles from the
runway, base is .5 miles from the runway. Even that tight , depending on
where the engine failure were to occur, and wind; my Q2 may or may not glide
to the runway.



A good test (no traffic, be careful, etc.) that you can perform to get an
idea if your patterns are overly large is to pull the power to idle when
abeam the numbers and fly your normal pattern (apply power when it is
obvious you are not going to make the runway/before impacting the ground).
If you make it to the numbers without power - NICE WORK - GOOD PATTERN!!



Jon Finley

N314JF - Q2 - Subaru EJ-22

http://www.finleyweb.net/Q2Subaru.aspx









------------------------------------

Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links