You've got to love QAC. . .

I have been working with a set of LS1 templates and trying to figure out how they get lined up on the ends of the foam blocks.

The LS1 instructions say to use the same block sizes called out in the Q2 plans, but the angles generated don't really match the sweep of the LS1 canard. So how do you know where to place the templates horizontally on the blocks.

Also, on page 3-6 of the Q2 plans it calls the "level Lines" drawn on the templates "Water Lines" does this mean that the "Level Lines" on the templates are placed at the same level vertically on the ends of the foam blocks as well as being "level"? Or is this just an artifact from the VariEZ plans that got copied and pasted into the Q2 plans?

I'm guessing that you Q-200 (and Q1 LS1) guys had a lot of futzing around to do in order to get your cores to fit on the spars. Let me know how you did it! I appreciate your experience.

Thanks,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com

Hey Dan,

In aircraft location Stations = distance from 0.0 (X) to item from nose to
tail, Butt lines = Distance from centerline out toward wing tips (Y),
Waterline = Distance in vertical from a known reference there is only one
Waterline 0.0. All waterlines are level by definition (Z), All stations and butt
lines are perpendicular to the waterline. 0,0,0 is where ever QAC decided
and should be specified on the plan.

Perfect cores are the start to a perfect wing.

Regards,

Charlie Johnson
Ogden, Utah

Dan - if I recall, you square the TE of the block and you line up the
templates with TE. That establishes the sweep for the LE.

The lines on the templates must be level when you hot wire them and then
must be accurately transferred to the foam after they have been cut out.
Water lines/level lines, I believe we are talking about the same thing.

Does this answer your questions?

Sam


On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 11:39 PM, <dan@...> wrote:

**


You've got to love QAC. . .

I have been working with a set of LS1 templates and trying to figure
out how they get lined up on the ends of the foam blocks.

The LS1 instructions say to use the same block sizes called out in the
Q2 plans, but the angles generated don't really match the sweep of the
LS1 canard. So how do you know where to place the templates
horizontally on the blocks.

Also, on page 3-6 of the Q2 plans it calls the "level Lines" drawn on
the templates "Water Lines" does this mean that the "Level Lines" on the
templates are placed at the same level vertically on the ends of the
foam blocks as well as being "level"? Or is this just an artifact from
the VariEZ plans that got copied and pasted into the Q2 plans?

I'm guessing that you Q-200 (and Q1 LS1) guys had a lot of futzing
around to do in order to get your cores to fit on the spars. Let me
know how you did it! I appreciate your experience.

Thanks,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the response Sam, I appreciate it. Not sure if my original question made any sense though. ;-) I'll try again.

"Level Lines" - to me this means that you level a template on one end of the foam block. (L.E. to T.E.)

"Water Lines" - to me this means that two separate templates are at the same height on opposite ends of the foam block.

I was just wondering if the "Level Lines" indicated on the templates, were also "Water Lines." (Or if it matters.)

Does that make sense? Please let me know. Again, I'm guessing that you had to sand and futz with the cores to get them to all fit together properly.

Thanks again,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com

Thanks Charlie,
I do understand all of that. My question is whether the template "level lines" need to be placed at the same distance verically above/below a predefined "water line"

Let's say the table you are about to cut your foam cores on is level in all directions.

You place one template on the end of the foam block with the "Level Line" say 5 inches off the table.

On the other end of the foam block, do you need to put the other template's "Level Line" 5 inches off of the table?

Or is there some other reference to align the templates vertically on the foam blocks?

This is hard to describe without a picture, maybe I'll skectch something quickly if my question still doesn't make sense. Please let me know. I appreciate all of your input.

Thanks guys,
-Dan

This is a response to Rick Hole's OFFLIST message (Show below). Rick if you send an e-mail to Q-LIST_at_yahoogroups_dot_com it will be posted to the Q-list automagically. ;-)


Thanks Rick,
The problem is that the LS1 plans aren't very precise. They seem to be an addendum to an addendum, with various references to the Q2 plans. The Q2 plans say that you line the T.E. of the templates to the Squared off foam block, but it also says that you can leave the trim lines dangling off the end of the foam if you want. So that leaves some wiggle room fore and aft.

Then it doesn't really say how to align the templates vertically from end to end. Except an obscure reference to "Water Lines" in the Education Chapter (3). There are no offsets or exceptions listed on the templates, and no vertical dimensions given. Just a rough sketch of the GU canard templates tacked to the ends of the foam, with no precise locations given.

If the templates cut the foam perpendicular to the wing, and then the wing is swept back, and anhedral is added, doesn't this change the shape of the airfoil to the relative wind (Along BL0).

I know that the templates seem to have worked fine for many of you, and they resulted in several beautifully flying airplanes. I'm just wondering how people actually cut out their canards, and get my head wrapped around it. I'd like to write an article that makes the process a little more precise than shown in the "instructions."

I appreciate your input.

Thanks again,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com

Dan,
As I recall (it’s been 25+ years!), yes, you put the “waterlines” at the same height above the table on the foam block before you cut them. Basically that makes the ends of the foam perpendicular to the top and bottom skins. This lets you join the blocks together without a big gap to fill.

I agree with Charlie’s comment about perfect cores, but don’t overdo it. A lot of us built wings long before digital levels and laser sighting devices. We measured with a ruler and checked level with a bubble in a tube. When you jig everything together, you’ll have to sand everything smooth. Do the absolute best you can, but with today’s tools, even a “poor job” is probably better than mine turned out – and I’ve been very happy with my results!

I hope that helps.

- Paul


From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of dan@...
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 09:11
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] LS1 Foam Layout. . .



Thanks Charlie,
I do understand all of that. My question is whether the template
"level lines" need to be placed at the same distance verically
above/below a predefined "water line"

Let's say the table you are about to cut your foam cores on is level in
all directions.

You place one template on the end of the foam block with the "Level
Line" say 5 inches off the table.

On the other end of the foam block, do you need to put the other
template's "Level Line" 5 inches off of the table?

Or is there some other reference to align the templates vertically on
the foam blocks?

This is hard to describe without a picture, maybe I'll skectch
something quickly if my question still doesn't make sense. Please let
me know. I appreciate all of your input.

Thanks guys,
-Dan

On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 09:46:57 EDT, oneskydog@...<mailto:oneskydog%40aol.com> wrote:

Hey Dan,

In aircraft location Stations = distance from 0.0 (X) to item from
nose to
tail, Butt lines = Distance from centerline out toward wing tips
(Y),
Waterline = Distance in vertical from a known reference there is
only one
Waterline 0.0. All waterlines are level by definition (Z), All
stations and butt
lines are perpendicular to the waterline. 0,0,0 is where ever QAC
decided
and should be specified on the plan.

Perfect cores are the start to a perfect wing.

Regards,

Charlie Johnson
Ogden, Utah

In a message dated 7/7/2011 7:18:27 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
dan@...<mailto:dan%40quickheads.com> [1] writes:

Thanks for the response Sam, I appreciate it. Not sure if my
original
question made any sense though. ;-) I'll try again.

"Level Lines" - to me this means that you level a template on one
end
of the foam block. (L.E. to T.E.)

"Water Lines" - to me this means that two separate templates are at
the
same height on opposite ends of the foam block.

I was just wondering if the "Level Lines" indicated on the
templates,
were also "Water Lines." (Or if it matters.)

Does that make sense? Please let me know. Again, I'm guessing that
you had to sand and futz with the cores to get them to all fit
together
properly.

Thanks again,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com

Thanks Paul,
That helps. Again I don't envy the work you guys put in to build these things without the support of "the initiated." You managed to build beautiful flying aircraft, and the rest of us appreciate your continued support.

Thanks again,
-Dan

I think I get your meaning. Forget about the levelness of the table,
it's practically irrelevant.


- Weigh the block down so it can't move.
- Slap the template on one end of the block and make sure it's perfectly
level.
- Take your tubing with the water in it and use it make the opposite side
template exactly the same as the first side.


Okay?

Sam




On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 9:11 AM, <dan@...> wrote:

**


Thanks Charlie,
I do understand all of that. My question is whether the template
"level lines" need to be placed at the same distance verically
above/below a predefined "water line"

Let's say the table you are about to cut your foam cores on is level in
all directions.

You place one template on the end of the foam block with the "Level
Line" say 5 inches off the table.

On the other end of the foam block, do you need to put the other
template's "Level Line" 5 inches off of the table?

Or is there some other reference to align the templates vertically on
the foam blocks?

This is hard to describe without a picture, maybe I'll skectch
something quickly if my question still doesn't make sense. Please let
me know. I appreciate all of your input.

Thanks guys,
-Dan


On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 09:46:57 EDT, oneskydog@... wrote:

Hey Dan,

In aircraft location Stations = distance from 0.0 (X) to item from
nose to
tail, Butt lines = Distance from centerline out toward wing tips
(Y),
Waterline = Distance in vertical from a known reference there is
only one
Waterline 0.0. All waterlines are level by definition (Z), All
stations and butt
lines are perpendicular to the waterline. 0,0,0 is where ever QAC
decided
and should be specified on the plan.

Perfect cores are the start to a perfect wing.

Regards,

Charlie Johnson
Ogden, Utah

In a message dated 7/7/2011 7:18:27 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
dan@... [1] writes:

Thanks for the response Sam, I appreciate it. Not sure if my
original
question made any sense though. ;-) I'll try again.

"Level Lines" - to me this means that you level a template on one
end
of the foam block. (L.E. to T.E.)

"Water Lines" - to me this means that two separate templates are at
the
same height on opposite ends of the foam block.

I was just wondering if the "Level Lines" indicated on the
templates,
were also "Water Lines." (Or if it matters.)

Does that make sense? Please let me know. Again, I'm guessing that
you had to sand and futz with the cores to get them to all fit
together
properly.

Thanks again,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dan,



The height of the template level lines from the table should be the same.



I recommend making two templates for the BL-100 elevator template. One
oversized and the other to plans spec. Hotwire, using the oversized
template and then use the plans spec template for sanding the core to the
proper size. Give me a call if you need further information.



Sam

209-785-2931



_____

From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
dan@...
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 7:11 AM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] LS1 Foam Layout. . .





Thanks Charlie,
I do understand all of that. My question is whether the template
"level lines" need to be placed at the same distance verically
above/below a predefined "water line"

Let's say the table you are about to cut your foam cores on is level in
all directions.

You place one template on the end of the foam block with the "Level
Line" say 5 inches off the table.

On the other end of the foam block, do you need to put the other
template's "Level Line" 5 inches off of the table?

Or is there some other reference to align the templates vertically on
the foam blocks?

This is hard to describe without a picture, maybe I'll skectch
something quickly if my question still doesn't make sense. Please let
me know. I appreciate all of your input.

Thanks guys,
-Dan

On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 09:46:57 EDT, oneskydog@...
<mailto:oneskydog%40aol.com> wrote:

Hey Dan,

In aircraft location Stations = distance from 0.0 (X) to item from
nose to
tail, Butt lines = Distance from centerline out toward wing tips
(Y),
Waterline = Distance in vertical from a known reference there is
only one
Waterline 0.0. All waterlines are level by definition (Z), All
stations and butt
lines are perpendicular to the waterline. 0,0,0 is where ever QAC
decided
and should be specified on the plan.

Perfect cores are the start to a perfect wing.

Regards,

Charlie Johnson
Ogden, Utah

In a message dated 7/7/2011 7:18:27 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
dan@... <mailto:dan%40quickheads.com> [1] writes:

Thanks for the response Sam, I appreciate it. Not sure if my
original
question made any sense though. ;-) I'll try again.

"Level Lines" - to me this means that you level a template on one
end
of the foam block. (L.E. to T.E.)

"Water Lines" - to me this means that two separate templates are at
the
same height on opposite ends of the foam block.

I was just wondering if the "Level Lines" indicated on the
templates,
were also "Water Lines." (Or if it matters.)

Does that make sense? Please let me know. Again, I'm guessing that
you had to sand and futz with the cores to get them to all fit
together
properly.

Thanks again,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com

Yes, you are correct that the shape of the wing is altered doing this, but the core templates are shaped to compensate.

As far as the note that you can line up the eventual trim lines at the edge of the block, you have the option to do that, but you must do the same at both ends of the foam block. I'd use the whole template unless there is no extra foam for the whole thing.

Rick Hole

I would not agree. If the table is not level the cut ends will not be
square with the bottom edge and you will have to do some extra work to line
up the cores on the jigging fixture. Take a couple minutes and level the
table.
Rick Hole
N1711Q
Radio test OK. Fresh air vents hooked up. ELT installed.

One other technique I used was to "skin" all of the foam blocks before cutting the cores out. The hard finish on the exterior of the blocks would cause issues getting the hot wire in and out, and as I recall some folks had the blocks change shape when the outside edges were taken off. Relieving the internal stress first kept the cores straighter. I always started with squared up blocks. Then as Sam says, the level of the table is practically irrelevant...


- Paul

Actually, when you really think about, skinning the cores does nothing.
JMHO.

If skinning were to actually help, the inside of the foam would have to move
- to settle into a new position. I just don't think that really happens.

Have we confused you enough, Dan?

Sam


On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Fisher Paul A.
<fisherpaula@...>wrote:

**


One other technique I used was to "skin" all of the foam blocks before
cutting the cores out. The hard finish on the exterior of the blocks would
cause issues getting the hot wire in and out, and as I recall some folks had
the blocks change shape when the outside edges were taken off. Relieving the
internal stress first kept the cores straighter. I always started with
squared up blocks. Then as Sam says, the level of the table is practically
irrelevant...

- Paul


-----Original Message-----
From: Q-LIST@... [mailto:Q-LIST@...] On Behalf Of
Sam Hoskins
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2011 10:47
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] LS1 Foam Layout. . .

I think I get your meaning. Forget about the levelness of the table,
it's practically irrelevant.

- Weigh the block down so it can't move.
- Slap the template on one end of the block and make sure it's perfectly
level.
- Take your tubing with the water in it and use it make the opposite side
template exactly the same as the first side.

Okay?

Sam

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 9:11 AM, <dan@...> wrote:

**


Thanks Charlie,
I do understand all of that. My question is whether the template
"level lines" need to be placed at the same distance verically
above/below a predefined "water line"

Let's say the table you are about to cut your foam cores on is level in
all directions.

You place one template on the end of the foam block with the "Level
Line" say 5 inches off the table.

On the other end of the foam block, do you need to put the other
template's "Level Line" 5 inches off of the table?

Or is there some other reference to align the templates vertically on
the foam blocks?

This is hard to describe without a picture, maybe I'll skectch
something quickly if my question still doesn't make sense. Please let
me know. I appreciate all of your input.

Thanks guys,
-Dan


On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 09:46:57 EDT, oneskydog@... wrote:

Hey Dan,

In aircraft location Stations = distance from 0.0 (X) to item from
nose to
tail, Butt lines = Distance from centerline out toward wing tips
(Y),
Waterline = Distance in vertical from a known reference there is
only one
Waterline 0.0. All waterlines are level by definition (Z), All
stations and butt
lines are perpendicular to the waterline. 0,0,0 is where ever QAC
decided
and should be specified on the plan.

Perfect cores are the start to a perfect wing.

Regards,

Charlie Johnson
Ogden, Utah

In a message dated 7/7/2011 7:18:27 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
dan@... [1] writes:

Thanks for the response Sam, I appreciate it. Not sure if my
original
question made any sense though. ;-) I'll try again.

"Level Lines" - to me this means that you level a template on one
end
of the foam block. (L.E. to T.E.)

"Water Lines" - to me this means that two separate templates are at
the
same height on opposite ends of the foam block.

I was just wondering if the "Level Lines" indicated on the
templates,
were also "Water Lines." (Or if it matters.)

Does that make sense? Please let me know. Again, I'm guessing that
you had to sand and futz with the cores to get them to all fit
together
properly.

Thanks again,
Dan Yager
QBA Editor
www.quickheads.com

------------------------------------


Quickie Builders Association WEB site
http://www.quickiebuilders.org

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nope. . . It all actually helped. (I think.) ;-)

Thanks guys,
-Dan