2 strokes are prone to seizing


Rich Gillen
 

Allan:

So your 2 stroke engine knows how fast(MPH) it's going? Wish mine did, I
wouldn't need a Speedo. If you stay within the acceptable RPMs, recommended
by Rotax, you should be OK. Some people tend to push the envelope. That's
6500rpm MAX for most Rotax 2 stroke engines, I have read. Only the 618UL was
rated for 6800rpm, and those RPMs, are only for takeoff, 1 minute, 30
seconds. Then their throttled back. Most people fly between 4000rpms - 6250rpms
MAX.

Most seizures are caused by what I stated below.
"Seizures are caused by many different situations, Heat (lack of proper
cooling), lack of proper lubrication (Oil Mix), or not using the Proper Type
of Oil, Over Revving the engine with no load, are the main reasons."<

Just my opinion.
Rich Gillen
============================================================================


1a. Re: 2 strokes are prone to seizing
Posted by: "Allan" afarr@... allan_farr
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:03 am ((PDT))

Hi. I'm not sure why you mention the "up down right or left" bit, I wasn't
saying anything about engine position. I am saying that 2 strokes are
known to be more subceptable to seizing on a fast/slippery aeroplane -
something to do with unloading the prop. I have read several interesting articles
about it. Here's one - http://curedcomposites.com/twostroke.html
Regards
Allan

--- In Q-LIST@..., Armilite@... wrote:


Allen:

2 Strokes don't know if their going up, or down, right or left. You can
hang them up, or down on a plane. Seizures are caused by many different
situations, Heat (lack of proper cooling), lack of proper lubrication
(Oil Mix),
or not using the Proper Type of Oil, Over Revving the engine with no
load,
are the main reasons. People have seized them just sitting on the
ground to
long, mounted on test engine stands, flying in level flight, rapid
decents, etc. You have seizures on both Air Cooled, and Water Cooled
engines.
There is a difference in 2 stroke oils.

Trouble is, most people don't document what went wrong, type of oil
used,
all the details, etc. Some guys get as little as 200hrs out of and
engine,
and another may get 800-1200+hrs.

The one thing you read about in almost every seizure post, is melted
Aluminium(Piston) on the cylinder walls, not on the top of the piston or
combustion chamber. That's HEAT, & Lack of proper lubrication.

Raw Aluminium melts at something like 1220F, pistons are made of many
different alloys, which probably give them a little higher melting
point. Point
is, people are melting them in there cyclinders. Friction causes HEAT. I
believe there are two types of cylinder sleeves, an alloy of carbon
chrome,
and molybdenum of 200 brinell hardness and something called, I think
nikasil. Which is a coating. I don't know if it's coated on the bare
Aluminium
Cylinder, or on an Iron/steel cylinder liner. Don't know which is
better. Most
engines use an alloy of carbon chrome, and molybdenum.

_http://www.psep.biz/store/ski-doo_cylinder_sleeves.htm_
(http://www.psep.biz/store/ski-doo_cylinder_sleeves.htm)

Just my opinion
Rich Gillen
Ames, IA

===========================================================================
3a. Re: Trying to contact alternate engine owners
Posted by: "Allan" afarr@... allan_farr
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi. I have a Rotax 503 in my Challenger, but from what I understand 2
strokes are prone to seizing if you use them in anything that is
fast/slippery.
Allan


Patrick Panzera
 

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:06 AM, <Armilite@...> wrote:

**

Allan:

So your 2 stroke engine knows how fast(MPH) it's going? Wish mine did, I
wouldn't need a Speedo.
I think you missed the point. The concern with " fast/slippery" airframes
is that in order to descend, without exceeding Vne, the throttle needs to
be reduced rather far. When the throttle is reduced, so is the oil supply
to the bearings, rings, and piston skirt (since the oil is mixed with the
fuel) however the engine is still turning, creating friction, requiring
oil.

Pat


If you stay within the acceptable RPMs, recommended
by Rotax, you should be OK. Some people tend to push the envelope. That's
6500rpm MAX for most Rotax 2 stroke engines, I have read. Only the 618UL
was
rated for 6800rpm, and those RPMs, are only for takeoff, 1 minute, 30
seconds. Then their throttled back. Most people fly between 4000rpms -
6250rpms
MAX.

Most seizures are caused by what I stated below.
"Seizures are caused by many different situations, Heat (lack of proper
cooling), lack of proper lubrication (Oil Mix), or not using the Proper
Type
of Oil, Over Revving the engine with no load, are the main reasons."<

Just my opinion.
Rich Gillen

============================================================================


1a. Re: 2 strokes are prone to seizing
Posted by: "Allan" afarr@... allan_farr
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:03 am ((PDT))

Hi. I'm not sure why you mention the "up down right or left" bit, I wasn't
saying anything about engine position. I am saying that 2 strokes are
known to be more subceptable to seizing on a fast/slippery aeroplane -
something to do with unloading the prop. I have read several interesting
articles
about it. Here's one - http://curedcomposites.com/twostroke.html
Regards
Allan


britmcman99
 

This is supposed to be off onto the Q Performance list, right? That said, some folks are submitting that oil starvation will not occur in an engine that is oil injected. Still, plenty of oil injected water cooled 2 strokes have provided ample dead stick landing practice to our brethren.

Now go post all this on the Q-Performance list instead.

Phil Lankford

On Mar 23, 2012, at 8:28 AM, Patrick Panzera <editor@...> wrote:

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:06 AM, <Armilite@...> wrote:

**

Allan:

So your 2 stroke engine knows how fast(MPH) it's going? Wish mine did, I
wouldn't need a Speedo.
I think you missed the point. The concern with " fast/slippery" airframes
is that in order to descend, without exceeding Vne, the throttle needs to
be reduced rather far. When the throttle is reduced, so is the oil supply
to the bearings, rings, and piston skirt (since the oil is mixed with the
fuel) however the engine is still turning, creating friction, requiring
oil.

Pat

If you stay within the acceptable RPMs, recommended
by Rotax, you should be OK. Some people tend to push the envelope. That's
6500rpm MAX for most Rotax 2 stroke engines, I have read. Only the 618UL
was
rated for 6800rpm, and those RPMs, are only for takeoff, 1 minute, 30
seconds. Then their throttled back. Most people fly between 4000rpms -
6250rpms
MAX.

Most seizures are caused by what I stated below.
"Seizures are caused by many different situations, Heat (lack of proper
cooling), lack of proper lubrication (Oil Mix), or not using the Proper
Type
of Oil, Over Revving the engine with no load, are the main reasons."<

Just my opinion.
Rich Gillen

============================================================================


1a. Re: 2 strokes are prone to seizing
Posted by: "Allan" afarr@... allan_farr
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:03 am ((PDT))

Hi. I'm not sure why you mention the "up down right or left" bit, I wasn't
saying anything about engine position. I am saying that 2 strokes are
known to be more subceptable to seizing on a fast/slippery aeroplane -
something to do with unloading the prop. I have read several interesting
articles
about it. Here's one - http://curedcomposites.com/twostroke.html
Regards
Allan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Mark Robinson
 

It might be instructive to take a close look at the numerous Mini-500 accidents that were associated with sudden engine stoppage (2-stroke).

--- On Fri, 3/23/12, Phil Lankford <britmcman@...> wrote:

From: Phil Lankford <britmcman@...>
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] 2 strokes are prone to seizing
To: "Q-LIST@..." <Q-LIST@...>
Date: Friday, March 23, 2012, 10:42 AM








 









This is supposed to be off onto the Q Performance list, right? That said, some folks are submitting that oil starvation will not occur in an engine that is oil injected. Still, plenty of oil injected water cooled 2 strokes have provided ample dead stick landing practice to our brethren.



Now go post all this on the Q-Performance list instead.



Phil Lankford



On Mar 23, 2012, at 8:28 AM, Patrick Panzera <editor@...> wrote:



On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 4:06 AM, <Armilite@...> wrote:
**
Allan:
So your 2 stroke engine knows how fast(MPH) it's going? Wish mine did, I
wouldn't need a Speedo.
I think you missed the point. The concern with " fast/slippery" airframes
is that in order to descend, without exceeding Vne, the throttle needs to
be reduced rather far. When the throttle is reduced, so is the oil supply
to the bearings, rings, and piston skirt (since the oil is mixed with the
fuel) however the engine is still turning, creating friction, requiring
oil.
Pat
If you stay within the acceptable RPMs, recommended
by Rotax, you should be OK. Some people tend to push the envelope. That's
6500rpm MAX for most Rotax 2 stroke engines, I have read. Only the 618UL
was
rated for 6800rpm, and those RPMs, are only for takeoff, 1 minute, 30
seconds. Then their throttled back. Most people fly between 4000rpms -
6250rpms
MAX.
Most seizures are caused by what I stated below.
"Seizures are caused by many different situations, Heat (lack of proper
cooling), lack of proper lubrication (Oil Mix), or not using the Proper
Type
of Oil, Over Revving the engine with no load, are the main reasons."<
Just my opinion.
Rich Gillen
============================================================================
1a. Re: 2 strokes are prone to seizing
Posted by: "Allan" afarr@... allan_farr
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:03 am ((PDT))
Hi. I'm not sure why you mention the "up down right or left" bit, I wasn't
saying anything about engine position. I am saying that 2 strokes are
known to be more subceptable to seizing on a fast/slippery aeroplane -
something to do with unloading the prop. I have read several interesting
articles
about it. Here's one - http://curedcomposites.com/twostroke.html
Regards
Allan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Allan Farr
 

Hi. No it doesn't know how fast it's going, but it "knows" how much load is on the propeller. When the prop/engine is unloaded it can cause high egt's and a seizure. The condition is more likely to occur in fast/slippery aircraft than a slow/draggy one. It doesn't have to be "over Revving" to cause the problem, in fact one of the danger areas is around 4000 revs. You obviously don't like to hear this but it is not "just my opinion". Look it up, there are interesting articles about it.
Allan
Btw my 503 is rated for 6800 WOT not 6500.

--- In Q-LIST@..., Armilite@... wrote:


Allan:

So your 2 stroke engine knows how fast(MPH) it's going? Wish mine did, I
wouldn't need a Speedo. If you stay within the acceptable RPMs, recommended
by Rotax, you should be OK. Some people tend to push the envelope. That's
6500rpm MAX for most Rotax 2 stroke engines, I have read. Only the 618UL was
rated for 6800rpm, and those RPMs, are only for takeoff, 1 minute, 30
seconds. Then their throttled back. Most people fly between 4000rpms - 6250rpms
MAX.

Most seizures are caused by what I stated below.
"Seizures are caused by many different situations, Heat (lack of proper
cooling), lack of proper lubrication (Oil Mix), or not using the Proper Type
of Oil, Over Revving the engine with no load, are the main reasons."<

Just my opinion.
Rich Gillen
============================================================================


1a. Re: 2 strokes are prone to seizing
Posted by: "Allan" afarr@... allan_farr
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:03 am ((PDT))

Hi. I'm not sure why you mention the "up down right or left" bit, I wasn't
saying anything about engine position. I am saying that 2 strokes are
known to be more subceptable to seizing on a fast/slippery aeroplane -
something to do with unloading the prop. I have read several interesting articles
about it. Here's one - http://curedcomposites.com/twostroke.html
Regards
Allan

--- In Q-LIST@..., Armilite@ wrote:


Allen:

2 Strokes don't know if their going up, or down, right or left. You can
hang them up, or down on a plane. Seizures are caused by many different
situations, Heat (lack of proper cooling), lack of proper lubrication
(Oil Mix),
or not using the Proper Type of Oil, Over Revving the engine with no
load,
are the main reasons. People have seized them just sitting on the
ground to
long, mounted on test engine stands, flying in level flight, rapid
decents, etc. You have seizures on both Air Cooled, and Water Cooled
engines.
There is a difference in 2 stroke oils.

Trouble is, most people don't document what went wrong, type of oil
used,
all the details, etc. Some guys get as little as 200hrs out of and
engine,
and another may get 800-1200+hrs.

The one thing you read about in almost every seizure post, is melted
Aluminium(Piston) on the cylinder walls, not on the top of the piston or
combustion chamber. That's HEAT, & Lack of proper lubrication.

Raw Aluminium melts at something like 1220F, pistons are made of many
different alloys, which probably give them a little higher melting
point. Point
is, people are melting them in there cyclinders. Friction causes HEAT. I
believe there are two types of cylinder sleeves, an alloy of carbon
chrome,
and molybdenum of 200 brinell hardness and something called, I think
nikasil. Which is a coating. I don't know if it's coated on the bare
Aluminium
Cylinder, or on an Iron/steel cylinder liner. Don't know which is
better. Most
engines use an alloy of carbon chrome, and molybdenum.

_http://www.psep.biz/store/ski-doo_cylinder_sleeves.htm_
(http://www.psep.biz/store/ski-doo_cylinder_sleeves.htm)

Just my opinion
Rich Gillen
Ames, IA

===========================================================================
3a. Re: Trying to contact alternate engine owners
Posted by: "Allan" afarr@ allan_farr
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi. I have a Rotax 503 in my Challenger, but from what I understand 2
strokes are prone to seizing if you use them in anything that is
fast/slippery.
Allan




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


dkeats <dkeats@...>
 

I have a 503 in my Quickie and I had a cold seizure. All my fault. It was
the first flight of the year and I had done the gall wheel alignment and
added VGs to the canard. It was below freezing when I taxied to the run up
area. Did a good runup and got all temps to where they should be. The wind
was from the wrong direction so I had to backtrack down the 5,000 ft runway.
Normally I am throttle up and down when I backtrack, but because I was
paying attention to the wheel alignment I let the engine temp cool down. On
takeoff I didn't realize the engine had cooled down and proceeded to climb
at full throttle and 2.000fpm. Thank god for the high rate of climb because
just at end of the runway the prop stopped. I hit the starter a few times ,
but nothing moved. I was at 1,000 feet so I turned and stayed in the
circuit. It is interesting the things that go through your mind. I would
think some people would see their life pass by them , or worry about their
fate. Not me. My first thought was, "how much is this gonna cost".

Anyway, called Unicom and let them know of my problem and that I felt
confident , so it was no big deal, but just stand by. On short final I hit
the starter and it lite up and I made a good landing and taxied back to the
hanger. Took off the exhaust manifold and saw both pistons scored. What I
wasn't aware of, is that if the engine isn't warmed up, the pistons expand
quicker than the cylinder and the engine seizes. Thats what happend to me.
Now I pay attention. Two pistons with rings, gasket set, wrist pin
bearings= 500 bucks. Its still a great combination and lotsa fun--------
Canada Chris


albert jolliffe
 

NO GAS going into the cylender meens no OIL mixing, when the prop is freeweeling dry pistons result ,SEIZURE....

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Allan" <afarr@...> wrote:

Hi. No it doesn't know how fast it's going, but it "knows" how much load is on the propeller. When the prop/engine is unloaded it can cause high egt's and a seizure. The condition is more likely to occur in fast/slippery aircraft than a slow/draggy one. It doesn't have to be "over Revving" to cause the problem, in fact one of the danger areas is around 4000 revs. You obviously don't like to hear this but it is not "just my opinion". Look it up, there are interesting articles about it.
Allan
Btw my 503 is rated for 6800 WOT not 6500.

--- In Q-LIST@..., Armilite@ wrote:


Allan:

So your 2 stroke engine knows how fast(MPH) it's going? Wish mine did, I
wouldn't need a Speedo. If you stay within the acceptable RPMs, recommended
by Rotax, you should be OK. Some people tend to push the envelope. That's
6500rpm MAX for most Rotax 2 stroke engines, I have read. Only the 618UL was
rated for 6800rpm, and those RPMs, are only for takeoff, 1 minute, 30
seconds. Then their throttled back. Most people fly between 4000rpms - 6250rpms
MAX.

Most seizures are caused by what I stated below.
"Seizures are caused by many different situations, Heat (lack of proper
cooling), lack of proper lubrication (Oil Mix), or not using the Proper Type
of Oil, Over Revving the engine with no load, are the main reasons."<

Just my opinion.
Rich Gillen
============================================================================


1a. Re: 2 strokes are prone to seizing
Posted by: "Allan" afarr@ allan_farr
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:03 am ((PDT))

Hi. I'm not sure why you mention the "up down right or left" bit, I wasn't
saying anything about engine position. I am saying that 2 strokes are
known to be more subceptable to seizing on a fast/slippery aeroplane -
something to do with unloading the prop. I have read several interesting articles
about it. Here's one - http://curedcomposites.com/twostroke.html
Regards
Allan

--- In Q-LIST@..., Armilite@ wrote:


Allen:

2 Strokes don't know if their going up, or down, right or left. You can
hang them up, or down on a plane. Seizures are caused by many different
situations, Heat (lack of proper cooling), lack of proper lubrication
(Oil Mix),
or not using the Proper Type of Oil, Over Revving the engine with no
load,
are the main reasons. People have seized them just sitting on the
ground to
long, mounted on test engine stands, flying in level flight, rapid
decents, etc. You have seizures on both Air Cooled, and Water Cooled
engines.
There is a difference in 2 stroke oils.

Trouble is, most people don't document what went wrong, type of oil
used,
all the details, etc. Some guys get as little as 200hrs out of and
engine,
and another may get 800-1200+hrs.

The one thing you read about in almost every seizure post, is melted
Aluminium(Piston) on the cylinder walls, not on the top of the piston or
combustion chamber. That's HEAT, & Lack of proper lubrication.

Raw Aluminium melts at something like 1220F, pistons are made of many
different alloys, which probably give them a little higher melting
point. Point
is, people are melting them in there cyclinders. Friction causes HEAT. I
believe there are two types of cylinder sleeves, an alloy of carbon
chrome,
and molybdenum of 200 brinell hardness and something called, I think
nikasil. Which is a coating. I don't know if it's coated on the bare
Aluminium
Cylinder, or on an Iron/steel cylinder liner. Don't know which is
better. Most
engines use an alloy of carbon chrome, and molybdenum.

_http://www.psep.biz/store/ski-doo_cylinder_sleeves.htm_
(http://www.psep.biz/store/ski-doo_cylinder_sleeves.htm)

Just my opinion
Rich Gillen
Ames, IA

===========================================================================
3a. Re: Trying to contact alternate engine owners
Posted by: "Allan" afarr@ allan_farr
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi. I have a Rotax 503 in my Challenger, but from what I understand 2
strokes are prone to seizing if you use them in anything that is
fast/slippery.
Allan




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


britmcman99
 

I propose we rename this list "Q-Strokes". I think I'm having one now. Please subscribe to Q-Performance or to any of the many other alternative engine lists available. Live long, fly four stroke.

Phil Lankford


On Mar 24, 2012, at 6:21 PM, "alertboryelis" <ajolliffe50@...> wrote:

NO GAS going into the cylender meens no OIL mixing, when the prop is freeweeling dry pistons result ,SEIZURE....

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Allan" <afarr@...> wrote:

Hi. No it doesn't know how fast it's going, but it "knows" how much load is on the propeller. When the prop/engine is unloaded it can cause high egt's and a seizure. The condition is more likely to occur in fast/slippery aircraft than a slow/draggy one. It doesn't have to be "over Revving" to cause the problem, in fact one of the danger areas is around 4000 revs. You obviously don't like to hear this but it is not "just my opinion". Look it up, there are interesting articles about it.
Allan
Btw my 503 is rated for 6800 WOT not 6500.

--- In Q-LIST@..., Armilite@ wrote:


Allan:

So your 2 stroke engine knows how fast(MPH) it's going? Wish mine did, I
wouldn't need a Speedo. If you stay within the acceptable RPMs, recommended
by Rotax, you should be OK. Some people tend to push the envelope. That's
6500rpm MAX for most Rotax 2 stroke engines, I have read. Only the 618UL was
rated for 6800rpm, and those RPMs, are only for takeoff, 1 minute, 30
seconds. Then their throttled back. Most people fly between 4000rpms - 6250rpms
MAX.

Most seizures are caused by what I stated below.
"Seizures are caused by many different situations, Heat (lack of proper
cooling), lack of proper lubrication (Oil Mix), or not using the Proper Type
of Oil, Over Revving the engine with no load, are the main reasons."<

Just my opinion.
Rich Gillen
============================================================================


1a. Re: 2 strokes are prone to seizing
Posted by: "Allan" afarr@ allan_farr
Date: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:03 am ((PDT))

Hi. I'm not sure why you mention the "up down right or left" bit, I wasn't
saying anything about engine position. I am saying that 2 strokes are
known to be more subceptable to seizing on a fast/slippery aeroplane -
something to do with unloading the prop. I have read several interesting articles
about it. Here's one - http://curedcomposites.com/twostroke.html
Regards
Allan

--- In Q-LIST@..., Armilite@ wrote:


Allen:

2 Strokes don't know if their going up, or down, right or left. You can
hang them up, or down on a plane. Seizures are caused by many different
situations, Heat (lack of proper cooling), lack of proper lubrication
(Oil Mix),
or not using the Proper Type of Oil, Over Revving the engine with no
load,
are the main reasons. People have seized them just sitting on the
ground to
long, mounted on test engine stands, flying in level flight, rapid
decents, etc. You have seizures on both Air Cooled, and Water Cooled
engines.
There is a difference in 2 stroke oils.

Trouble is, most people don't document what went wrong, type of oil
used,
all the details, etc. Some guys get as little as 200hrs out of and
engine,
and another may get 800-1200+hrs.

The one thing you read about in almost every seizure post, is melted
Aluminium(Piston) on the cylinder walls, not on the top of the piston or
combustion chamber. That's HEAT, & Lack of proper lubrication.

Raw Aluminium melts at something like 1220F, pistons are made of many
different alloys, which probably give them a little higher melting
point. Point
is, people are melting them in there cyclinders. Friction causes HEAT. I
believe there are two types of cylinder sleeves, an alloy of carbon
chrome,
and molybdenum of 200 brinell hardness and something called, I think
nikasil. Which is a coating. I don't know if it's coated on the bare
Aluminium
Cylinder, or on an Iron/steel cylinder liner. Don't know which is
better. Most
engines use an alloy of carbon chrome, and molybdenum.

_http://www.psep.biz/store/ski-doo_cylinder_sleeves.htm_
(http://www.psep.biz/store/ski-doo_cylinder_sleeves.htm)

Just my opinion
Rich Gillen
Ames, IA

===========================================================================
3a. Re: Trying to contact alternate engine owners
Posted by: "Allan" afarr@ allan_farr
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi. I have a Rotax 503 in my Challenger, but from what I understand 2
strokes are prone to seizing if you use them in anything that is
fast/slippery.
Allan




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Allan Farr
 

I wouldn't have thought this belongs on the Q Performance list. Using a Rotax in a Quickie is surely not much different to using a Subaru or Jabiru in a Q2, and we get to discuss those on this list.
Allan

--- In Q-LIST@..., Phil Lankford <britmcman@...> wrote:

This is supposed to be off onto the Q Performance list, right? That said, some folks are submitting that oil starvation will not occur in an engine that is oil injected. Still, plenty of oil injected water cooled 2 strokes have provided ample dead stick landing practice to our brethren.

Now go post all this on the Q-Performance list instead.

Phil Lankford


Bob Wilson
 

Hi,

--- In Q-LIST@..., "Allan" <afarr@...> wrote:

I wouldn't have thought this belongs on the Q Performance list. Using a Rotax
in a Quickie is surely not much different to using a Subaru or Jabiru in a Q2, and
we get to discuss those on this list.
I was interested in historical application of two-strokes and had already found only one credible attempt in the Dragonfly group. That attempt failed due to technical challenges of trying to mount inverted, a four-cylinder, opposed, two-stroke. Probably due to exhaust issues, it never developed full power and the effort was abandoned.

I'd found two photos of a similar installation in a Q-2/Q-200 style firewall and one reference to a name a registration number. But the memory of that effort seems to have faded. I also found three examples of two-stroke, Q-1 of which a Canadian version is still running. The other two, I understand, reverted back to four-strokes.

These are the historical data points I needed and have helped me. But until I have something flying, I have no plans for further posting on this or the Q-performance list. I was seeking facts and data.

One last thing, I appreciate everyone's contribution. It has helped.

Thanks,
Bob Wilson