Engine installation


Raymond Johnson
 

Hi all
In short l am building a Q2 and not far from installing an UL260isa engine. It has been suggested that the engines center line be lowered by one and three eighths of an inch from the VW engine centre line as shown in the plans.
I am a little nervous about lowering the engine as I'm not shore what flight characteristics this may change.
As some of you have installed different sized and weight engines, what have others done.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Ray
OZ


Bruce Crain
 


Murry Rozansky
 

Engine weights are difficult to pin down. Installed verses dry.  Does FWF include prop? Cowling? etc. UL and Jabaru both rate their engines at > 3000 rpm; that is why their power to weight looks better than O-200 and O-235(3). That means a smaller prop but that is not much of a negative on a clean, fast aircraft like a Q.  Any Rotax  four stroke engines on Qs? Being geared, they can swing a bigger prop and would be a bit of a challenge to prop correctly.
 
Murry
 

From: 'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST]
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 8:02 PM
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Engine installation
 
 

With an engine that weighs only 167 lbs and putting out 107 hp you should have a rocket!  You're a good 75 lbs lighter than the Continental 0200 and 40 lbs lighter than the Revmaster!  If the rest of the air frame is light and straight.  You might be able to put the battery next to the PAX right calf if the weight and balance works out.  Don't the UL engines pick up the horse power by upping the rpm a bit say 2700 to 3000?  Jay Scheevel what say you about the engine center line?  Is there a good reason for that?  The float planes don't seem to be much interested in engine center line (see Sea Wind Aircraft).  If you end up cruising about 180 mph you could open up something new and exciting for the Quickie!
Got our eyes on you Bro!
Bruce Crain

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "johnogr@... [Q-LIST]"
To: Q-LIST@...
Subject: [Q-LIST] Engine installation
Date: 18 Apr 2017 22:58:26 +0000

 

Hi all
In short l am building a Q2 and not far from installing an UL260isa engine. It has been suggested that the engines center line be lowered by one and three eighths of an inch from the VW engine centre line as shown in the plans.
I am a little nervous about lowering the engine as I'm not shore what flight characteristics this may change.
As some of you have installed different sized and weight engines, what have others done.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Ray
OZ

 



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Patrick Panzera
 

Hi Bruce, 

I'm just wondering how you came up with 207 lbs for the Revmaster? 

Thanks! 

Pat


On Apr 18, 2017 8:04 PM, "'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

With an engine that weighs only 167 lbs and putting out 107 hp you should have a rocket!  You're a good 75 lbs lighter than the Continental 0200 and 40 lbs lighter than the Revmaster!  If the rest of the air frame is light and straight.  You might be able to put the battery next to the PAX right calf if the weight and balance works out.  Don't the UL engines pick up the horse power by upping the rpm a bit say 2700 to 3000?  Jay Scheevel what say you about the engine center line?  Is there a good reason for that?  The float planes don't seem to be much interested in engine center line (see Sea Wind Aircraft).  If you end up cruising about 180 mph you could open up something new and exciting for the Quickie!
Got our eyes on you Bro!
Bruce Crain
   Reply to sender






Bruce Crain
 


Jay Scheevel
 

There was recently a series of articles in KitPlanes about the Flying Flea and the issues associated with instability in the low speed range. The article mostly focused on the position of the CG relative to the rear wing and how moving that wing back in later models helped to stabilize it.

Notably, however there was also discussion about the vertical position of the CG (Water Line) and how interaction with the thrustline that came into play with respect to stability and controlability.

For most aircraft, the thrust line is designed to line up with the WL of the CG.If it is offset, there needs to be some flight surface accomodation incorporated that will compensate for the offset. In the case of float planes, this usually is done by factoring in the aerodynamic contribution of the floats or the hull design (for amphibians). The greater the offset, the more consideration is needed in aero design and also the less responsive and more resistant to instability the contol system needs to be. 

Ideally, from a response and efficiency standpoint, having the thrust-line WL the same as the CG gives the most responsive control surface efficiency and prevents mass/intertia related feedback. I think you will find that the Q2 thrust line (with the revmaster) is slightly higher than the O-200 (maybe an inch) as shown in the attached clip. Whether QAC did this because the heavier Q-200's overall CG is lower than the Q2 or simply to fit the engine into the airframe, I do not know. If it was done for aero engineering reasons, it would suggest that a lighter engine should be moved up, not down relative to the Q-200, or if it is lighter than the Revmaster, even higher.

Rather than making my brain hurt with analysis at the time, I left my thrust line for my lighter Jabiru engine (about 35 pounds lighter than the O-200) at the same WL as the O-200. All things considered, I do not think that an inch or so will be that noticeable, but that is just my current opinion...subject to change.

Cheers,
Jay Scheevel, Tri-Q, still building


Patrick Panzera
 

According to their website, it's only 170 lbs.

http://revmasteraviation.com/

Pat

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 7:48 AM, 'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

Did I get it wrong?  It's  been years since I looked into that subject.  What is  your take Pat?
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Patrick Panzera editor@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Engine installation
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 06:47:29 -0700

 

Hi Bruce, 
 
I'm just wondering how you came up with 207 lbs for the Revmaster? 
 
Thanks! 
 
Pat


On Apr 18, 2017 8:04 PM, "'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

 

With an engine that weighs only 167 lbs and putting out 107 hp you should have a rocket!  You're a good 75 lbs lighter than the Continental 0200 and 40 lbs lighter than the Revmaster!  If the rest of the air frame is light and straight.  You might be able to put the battery next to the PAX right calf if the weight and balance works out.  Don't the UL engines pick up the horse power by upping the rpm a bit say 2700 to 3000?  Jay Scheevel what say you about the engine center line?  Is there a good reason for that?  The float planes don't seem to be much interested in engine center line (see Sea Wind Aircraft).  If you end up cruising about 180 mph you could open up something new and exciting for the Quickie!
Got our eyes on you Bro!
Bruce Crain
   Reply to sender          
 


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Murry Rozansky
 

Might be total weight FWF? The UL engine weight looks like bare and dry. Really pinning down engine weights is difficult if you are not there to see what is included.
Murry
 

From: Patrick Panzera editor@... [Q-LIST]
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 6:25 PM
To: Q-LIST
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Engine installation
 
 

According to their website, it's only 170 lbs.

http://revmasteraviation.com/

Pat
 
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 7:48 AM, 'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 
Did I get it wrong?  It's  been years since I looked into that subject.  What is  your take Pat?
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Patrick Panzera editor@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Engine installation
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 06:47:29 -0700

 

Hi Bruce, 
 
I'm just wondering how you came up with 207 lbs for the Revmaster?
 
Thanks!
 
Pat
 
 
On Apr 18, 2017 8:04 PM, "'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

 

With an engine that weighs only 167 lbs and putting out 107 hp you should have a rocket!  You're a good 75 lbs lighter than the Continental 0200 and 40 lbs lighter than the Revmaster!  If the rest of the air frame is light and straight.  You might be able to put the battery next to the PAX right calf if the weight and balance works out.  Don't the UL engines pick up the horse power by upping the rpm a bit say 2700 to 3000?  Jay Scheevel what say you about the engine center line?  Is there a good reason for that?  The float planes don't seem to be much interested in engine center line (see Sea Wind Aircraft).  If you end up cruising about 180 mph you could open up something new and exciting for the Quickie!
Got our eyes on you Bro!
Bruce Crain
  Reply to sender          
 


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Bruce Crain
 


Patrick Panzera
 

Since the 2100D, Revmaster has lost some weight by ditching the heavy dual mags and going solid state. It also picked up a few ccs going to 2332. 

The prop flange has always been included in the weight of the Revmaster, so is the complete induction system and starter. 

There's not much to add, save oil, fuel, and 12 volts for the starter - and the engine is running. 

The only thing omitted is the exhaust, as with things like an engine mount, cowl, baffles, prop and spinner, those are all airframe specific and the weights will vary.

Pat

On Apr 19, 2017 7:45 PM, "'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

Hey Pat,
170 seems a bit on the light side but then you factor in perhaps a prop flange and oil (I don't remember the number of quarts it holds.  It has been a lot of years since I dabbled) and maybe a few other aftermarket things it might add up.  I had a 2100D Revmaster way back when.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Patrick Panzera editor@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Engine installation
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:25:08 -0700

 

According to their website, it's only 170 lbs.

http://revmasteraviation.com/

Pat

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 7:48 AM, 'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

 

Did I get it wrong?  It's  been years since I looked into that subject.  What is  your take Pat?
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Patrick Panzera editor@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Engine installation
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 06:47:29 -0700

 

 

Hi Bruce, 
 
I'm just wondering how you came up with 207 lbs for the Revmaster? 
 
Thanks! 
 
Pat


On Apr 18, 2017 8:04 PM, "'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

 

With an engine that weighs only 167 lbs and putting out 107 hp you should have a rocket!  You're a good 75 lbs lighter than the Continental 0200 and 40 lbs lighter than the Revmaster!  If the rest of the air frame is light and straight.  You might be able to put the battery next to the PAX right calf if the weight and balance works out.  Don't the UL engines pick up the horse power by upping the rpm a bit say 2700 to 3000?  Jay Scheevel what say you about the engine center line?  Is there a good reason for that?  The float planes don't seem to be much interested in engine center line (see Sea Wind Aircraft).  If you end up cruising about 180 mph you could open up something new and exciting for the Quickie!
Got our eyes on you Bro!
Bruce Crain
   Reply to sender          
 


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Allan Farr
 

I have a Rotax 912 in my Titan Tornado.  The good thing about it is the ability to use an inflight adjustable prop, it would really suit a Q.




Sent from Samsung tablet


Martin Skiby
 

I would not be concerned at all about the placement for the UL.  Personally I would place the centerline exactly where the 0200 is and give it a run.  Check the weight and balance carefully and go.  I have done research on the UL and find it will be a great option for the Q2/200.  You will need to counter balance all your control surfaces and follow the procedures for the Q200 as you will basically have one of those.  Actually a Q-260!!.  Great choice and good luck with the install.  Let me know if I can help at all.

We have a Q200 and a TriQ200 both in the air.  You could also start with an 0200 prop or something very close.  We are running our 0200's in the 2800 RPM range for high speed which is a little less than the UL will want.  Biggest issue is to make sure you have adequate static RPM for the first flight to get off the ground.  I would love to chat more if you like.

Sincerely,


Richard Kaczmarek 3RD
 

I was probably misunderstood at SNF. The placement for the engine mount moves down 1 3/8" at the top to get the UL engine crank on the trust line for the Q. I will post a picture of the firewall dwg when I get back into our shop in WV this week. As far as CG the UL comes in at about 8lbs lighter then the 2100D VW so there should be no issues there. UL offers all the info on line for the engine mount dimension needed and the original Q firewall templets does offer the thrust line location. Balancing the controls is a must do because of the speed increase with the new engine. 

Fast Little Airplanes


Richard Kaczmarek 3RD
 

UL offers their engine weights with oil and all accessories (ECU, fuel pumps and so on) total weight comes in at 168lbs.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:11 PM, 'Murry I. Rozansky' MIRCO@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

Might be total weight FWF? The UL engine weight looks like bare and dry. Really pinning down engine weights is difficult if you are not there to see what is included.
Murry
 
From: Patrick Panzera editor@... [Q-LIST]
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 6:25 PM
To: Q-LIST
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Engine installation
 
 

According to their website, it's only 170 lbs.

http://revmasteraviation.com/

Pat
 
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 7:48 AM, 'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST] <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 
Did I get it wrong?  It's  been years since I looked into that subject.  What is  your take Pat?
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Patrick Panzera editor@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...>
To: Q-LIST <Q-LIST@...>
Subject: Re: [Q-LIST] Engine installation
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 06:47:29 -0700

 

Hi Bruce, 
 
I'm just wondering how you came up with 207 lbs for the Revmaster?
 
Thanks!
 
Pat
 
 
On Apr 18, 2017 8:04 PM, "'jcrain2@...' jcrain2@... [Q-LIST]" <Q-LIST@...> wrote:
 

 

With an engine that weighs only 167 lbs and putting out 107 hp you should have a rocket!  You're a good 75 lbs lighter than the Continental 0200 and 40 lbs lighter than the Revmaster!  If the rest of the air frame is light and straight.  You might be able to put the battery next to the PAX right calf if the weight and balance works out.  Don't the UL engines pick up the horse power by upping the rpm a bit say 2700 to 3000?  Jay Scheevel what say you about the engine center line?  Is there a good reason for that?  The float planes don't seem to be much interested in engine center line (see Sea Wind Aircraft).  If you end up cruising about 180 mph you could open up something new and exciting for the Quickie!
Got our eyes on you Bro!
Bruce Crain
  Reply to sender          
 


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Richard Kaczmarek
Fast Little Airplanes LLC
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