Q2/200 configurations


 

Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 


ryan goodman
 

I have dual toe. No experience yet though.


On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 21:36, n7000t via Groups.Io
<n7000t@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 


Paul Fisher
 

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.

Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  

Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 


Bruce Crain
 

I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce


---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 



Paul Fisher
 

Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

Paul

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 



 

More for me to think about.   Good points 


On Dec 1, 2019, at 8:54 PM, Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:


I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 



Bruce Crain
 

All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!
Bruce 


On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:


Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

Paul

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 





Jim Patillo
 

Mike,

I think it’s a matter of personal preference based on whether you have toe brakes or finger brakes already installed And are flying with them. As a practical matter, toe brake cylinders are much harder to install and service and I think that deters  a lot of people. I love having toe brakes so my hands are free for other things. To each his own!

Also as Paul stated, if the tail rod brakes you still have total control of the rudders and brakes with our Jim/Bob bellcrank modification.

Jim
N46JP -Q200
19 years flying my Q

Sent from Outer Space


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 6:23:00 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
 
All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!
Bruce 


On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:


Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

Paul

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 





John Hoxie
 

I built mine per the revised plan with the single handbrake. I know I can't do differential braking. Is that going to be a very big deal? I mounted the master cylinder to the pilot's side of the left console, bolts floxed through phenolic, because my left console is a fuel tank extension, like my other consoles. what if I put a selector valve near the master solenoid/brake lever where I choose L/BOTH/R brakes?

 
John Hoxie
He is no fool, who gives up what he can not keep, to gain what he can not loose -- Jim Elliot


On Monday, December 2, 2019, 10:18:23 AM MST, Jim Patillo <logistics_engineering@...> wrote:


Mike,

I think it’s a matter of personal preference based on whether you have toe brakes or finger brakes already installed And are flying with them. As a practical matter, toe brake cylinders are much harder to install and service and I think that deters  a lot of people. I love having toe brakes so my hands are free for other things. To each his own!

Also as Paul stated, if the tail rod brakes you still have total control of the rudders and brakes with our Jim/Bob bellcrank modification.

Jim
N46JP -Q200
19 years flying my Q

Sent from Outer Space

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 6:23:00 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
 
All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!
Bruce 


On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:


Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

Paul

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 





 

Thanks Jim,
What are the Jim bob six pack? Is there a place on the q- list or on Quickheads that have your list?  Also are your brakes mechanical or hydraulic type ( brake lines and such)
Thanks

Mike 


On Dec 2, 2019, at 9:18 AM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_Engineering@...> wrote:


Mike,

I think it’s a matter of personal preference based on whether you have toe brakes or finger brakes already installed And are flying with them. As a practical matter, toe brake cylinders are much harder to install and service and I think that deters  a lot of people. I love having toe brakes so my hands are free for other things. To each his own!

Also as Paul stated, if the tail rod brakes you still have total control of the rudders and brakes with our Jim/Bob bellcrank modification.

Jim
N46JP -Q200
19 years flying my Q

Sent from Outer Space

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 6:23:00 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
 
All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!
Bruce 


On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:


Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

Paul

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 





Larry Severson
 

Finger brakes are definitely easier to install and maintain, but toe brakes are a LOT easier to fly with especially during engine start.

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 9:18 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations

 

Mike,

 

I think it’s a matter of personal preference based on whether you have toe brakes or finger brakes already installed And are flying with them. As a practical matter, toe brake cylinders are much harder to install and service and I think that deters  a lot of people. I love having toe brakes so my hands are free for other things. To each his own!

 

Also as Paul stated, if the tail rod brakes you still have total control of the rudders and brakes with our Jim/Bob bellcrank modification.

 

Jim

N46JP -Q200

19 years flying my Q

 

Sent from Outer Space


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 6:23:00 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations

 

All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!

Bruce 



On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:



Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

 

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

 

Paul

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:

I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.

Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.

 

Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  

 

Paul Fisher

Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 

 

 


Mike Dwyer
 

Mine has the individual hand brake per plans and I haven't had an issue in 1400 hours.
Mike Dwyer Q200

YouTube Videos: https://goo.gl/yKEHfK
Q200 Website: http://goo.gl/V8IrJF


On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 12:44 PM John Hoxie via Groups.Io <hoxdesigns=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I built mine per the revised plan with the single handbrake. I know I can't do differential braking. Is that going to be a very big deal? I mounted the master cylinder to the pilot's side of the left console, bolts floxed through phenolic, because my left console is a fuel tank extension, like my other consoles. what if I put a selector valve near the master solenoid/brake lever where I choose L/BOTH/R brakes?

 
John Hoxie
He is no fool, who gives up what he can not keep, to gain what he can not loose -- Jim Elliot


On Monday, December 2, 2019, 10:18:23 AM MST, Jim Patillo <logistics_engineering@...> wrote:


Mike,

I think it’s a matter of personal preference based on whether you have toe brakes or finger brakes already installed And are flying with them. As a practical matter, toe brake cylinders are much harder to install and service and I think that deters  a lot of people. I love having toe brakes so my hands are free for other things. To each his own!

Also as Paul stated, if the tail rod brakes you still have total control of the rudders and brakes with our Jim/Bob bellcrank modification.

Jim
N46JP -Q200
19 years flying my Q

Sent from Outer Space

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 6:23:00 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
 
All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!
Bruce 


On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:


Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

Paul

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 





Sam Hoskins
 

I am going to throw in my opposing two cents worth.  I think that the additional JimBob bellcrank is an unneeded modification. I think it is a fix in search of a problem.

Yes, if you have the stock setup, with the rudder cables going to the tailwheel bracket, then to the rudder bellcrank, it is a bad design due to the complete loss of rudder if the tail spring breaks. I have first-hand knowledge of this problem. Rather, a simpler way is to simply tie in a second cable that goes to the tail. This way, there are separate cables; one to the rudder and one to the tailwheel. I'll attach a photo to show what I mean.

I know that several guys installed the JimBob bellcrank, but I don't think it is needed.  What is needed, is to make sure that the Gall Wheel Alignment has been performed correctly. The root cause of most handling issues is the improper wheel alignment method what was called out in the QAC plans.  When QAC wrote the Q-2/Q-200 plans, they simply cut and pasted the Q-1 wheel alignment.  Doesn't apply to a substantially heavier airframe.

Sam
Q07.jpg

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 8:23 AM Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!
Bruce 


On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:


Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

Paul

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 





Sam Hoskins
 

The problem with the single pull brake is a safety issue.  If the tailspring should break, you lose all directional control. With differential brakes you would be able to keep steering the aircraft. 

When I had around 1,000 hours on my Q-200, I was getting my BFR and the tailspring broke.  I had the per-plans installation. So, touching down at 70 mph and no steering available.  We went off the runway and I forced a groundloop my throwing the control stick to the right. Adverse yaw induced the groundloop. The left wheelpant broke off and bounced off the canopy.  The resulting prop strike trashed the prob and bent the crankshaft.  And, I didn't even get my BFR signed off!

So, during the repair I installed differential braking and split the cables so an independent cable is connected to the rudder and to the tailwheel.

Of course, if I had a tailspring that didn't break, the problem wouldn't have happened, but that's another topic.

Aside  from the loss of control issue, I like differential braking a lot more than single pull.  You can turn a tighter corner and generally have better control on the ground.

Sam
#tailspring #brakes #gallalignment

pic2.JPG
brakes.jpg


On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:44 AM John Hoxie via Groups.Io <hoxdesigns=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I built mine per the revised plan with the single handbrake. I know I can't do differential braking. Is that going to be a very big deal? I mounted the master cylinder to the pilot's side of the left console, bolts floxed through phenolic, because my left console is a fuel tank extension, like my other consoles. what if I put a selector valve near the master solenoid/brake lever where I choose L/BOTH/R brakes?

 
John Hoxie
He is no fool, who gives up what he can not keep, to gain what he can not loose -- Jim Elliot


On Monday, December 2, 2019, 10:18:23 AM MST, Jim Patillo <logistics_engineering@...> wrote:


Mike,

I think it’s a matter of personal preference based on whether you have toe brakes or finger brakes already installed And are flying with them. As a practical matter, toe brake cylinders are much harder to install and service and I think that deters  a lot of people. I love having toe brakes so my hands are free for other things. To each his own!

Also as Paul stated, if the tail rod brakes you still have total control of the rudders and brakes with our Jim/Bob bellcrank modification.

Jim
N46JP -Q200
19 years flying my Q

Sent from Outer Space

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...>
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 6:23:00 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
 
All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!
Bruce 


On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:


Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

Paul

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 





britmcman99
 

Thanks Sam, and did you install any springs to the tailwheel cables?

Phil


On Dec 2, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:

I am going to throw in my opposing two cents worth.  I think that the additional JimBob bellcrank is an unneeded modification. I think it is a fix in search of a problem.

Yes, if you have the stock setup, with the rudder cables going to the tailwheel bracket, then to the rudder bellcrank, it is a bad design due to the complete loss of rudder if the tail spring breaks. I have first-hand knowledge of this problem. Rather, a simpler way is to simply tie in a second cable that goes to the tail. This way, there are separate cables; one to the rudder and one to the tailwheel. I'll attach a photo to show what I mean.

I know that several guys installed the JimBob bellcrank, but I don't think it is needed.  What is needed, is to make sure that the Gall Wheel Alignment has been performed correctly. The root cause of most handling issues is the improper wheel alignment method what was called out in the QAC plans.  When QAC wrote the Q-2/Q-200 plans, they simply cut and pasted the Q-1 wheel alignment.  Doesn't apply to a substantially heavier airframe.

Sam
<Q07.jpg>

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 8:23 AM Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!
Bruce 


On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:


Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

Paul

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 





Sam Hoskins
 

I bought a set of springs but never installed them. I think it handles fine now.

Sam

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 12:43 PM Phil Lankford via Groups.Io <britmcman=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks Sam, and did you install any springs to the tailwheel cables?

Phil


On Dec 2, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:

I am going to throw in my opposing two cents worth.  I think that the additional JimBob bellcrank is an unneeded modification. I think it is a fix in search of a problem.

Yes, if you have the stock setup, with the rudder cables going to the tailwheel bracket, then to the rudder bellcrank, it is a bad design due to the complete loss of rudder if the tail spring breaks. I have first-hand knowledge of this problem. Rather, a simpler way is to simply tie in a second cable that goes to the tail. This way, there are separate cables; one to the rudder and one to the tailwheel. I'll attach a photo to show what I mean.

I know that several guys installed the JimBob bellcrank, but I don't think it is needed.  What is needed, is to make sure that the Gall Wheel Alignment has been performed correctly. The root cause of most handling issues is the improper wheel alignment method what was called out in the QAC plans.  When QAC wrote the Q-2/Q-200 plans, they simply cut and pasted the Q-1 wheel alignment.  Doesn't apply to a substantially heavier airframe.

Sam
<Q07.jpg>

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 8:23 AM Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!
Bruce 


On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:


Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

Paul

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 





Matthew Curcio
 

Toe brakes good
-Retain the use of your hands during, startup, taxi, and run up
-conventional arrangement, most people are accustomed To
Bad
-poor access for maintenance, installation, and inspection
-rudder pedals are not designed for the max pilot effort brake loads reacted by the master cylinders.
-some airplanes don’t have the space for the additional travel required.
- rudder pedal remains a single point of failure that would likely result in a loss of ground directional control

Finger brakes good
-easy access for installation, maintenance and inspection
- eliminates the rudder pedal and control circuit as a single point of failure resulting in a loss of ground directional control. (Note there are additional spf’s that would still likely result in a loss of ground directional control such as basically everything in the wheel and axle assemblies)
Bad
-atypical configuration requires a learning curve 
-complicates starting and run up as there is not a free hand available to manage the throttle.


I have the finger brakes and I’m very happy with them, however it is obnoxious during startup, and run up. Much of that could be eliminated if I installed a parking brake valve. I have a really nice finger brake module I designed that you can build entirely out of the airplane and then just glass in place with some tapes. It allows for easy removal and maintenance of all of the components. 

I don’t have the space for feet and brakes and I found the maintenance to be an issue. 


Matthew Curcio
419-290-3773


On Dec 2, 2019, at 06:23, Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:

 All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!
Bruce 


On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:


Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

Paul

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:
I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.
Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.
 
Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  
 
Paul Fisher
Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 





Jim Patillo
 

Hi Mike,

I should know where the J/B Sixpack mods are located online but don’t. They used to be in the file section under “Logistics Mods and other stuff” I’m sure someone on the list can provide you the location. Several people have used some or all of these mods and like them.  Done together, they make the plane more docile and predictable. 

A case in point was Tom Moore’s Q200 that Brad Olsen bought. He began taxi testing and was all over the place. So I went for a hi speed run to see what was going on. The plane seemed very twitchy and not predictable, I didn’t like the handling, so Bob F and I suggested he install the sixpack and he did. The subsequent hi speed taxi’s, take off and landings were totally tamed. It is a nice looking good handling, fast airplane. 

If I were building or finishing my plane again, I would incorporate the same mods. They allow  for more input finesse. Just another view. That’s why they call um experimental.


P.S. Yes the toe brakes are hydraulic disc type. 

Whenever we get to go for a ride in mine, I will show you. 

Regards,
Jim,

N46JP -Q200


Larry Severson
 

It isn’t needed, but it sure makes doing annuals easier.

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sam Hoskins
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 9:58 AM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations

 

I am going to throw in my opposing two cents worth.  I think that the additional JimBob bellcrank is an unneeded modification. I think it is a fix in search of a problem.

 

Yes, if you have the stock setup, with the rudder cables going to the tailwheel bracket, then to the rudder bellcrank, it is a bad design due to the complete loss of rudder if the tail spring breaks. I have first-hand knowledge of this problem. Rather, a simpler way is to simply tie in a second cable that goes to the tail. This way, there are separate cables; one to the rudder and one to the tailwheel. I'll attach a photo to show what I mean.

 

I know that several guys installed the JimBob bellcrank, but I don't think it is needed.  What is needed, is to make sure that the Gall Wheel Alignment has been performed correctly. The root cause of most handling issues is the improper wheel alignment method what was called out in the QAC plans.  When QAC wrote the Q-2/Q-200 plans, they simply cut and pasted the Q-1 wheel alignment.  Doesn't apply to a substantially heavier airframe.

 

Sam

Q07.jpg

 

On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 8:23 AM Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:

All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!

Bruce 



On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:



Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

 

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

 

Paul

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:

I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.

Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.

 

Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  

 

Paul Fisher

Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe 

 

 


Jay Scheevel
 

I have toe brakes, but that is standard for the Tri-gear. However, in anticipation of maintenance, I did two things. Both of these can be done on a taildragger, to the same effect.

1.  I created two ports in the sides of the fuselage for better access.

 

2.  I built the rudder pedals and brake assembly on a removable platform that bolts into the canard and firewall. Note the aluminum angle attached to the platform that allows brake cylinder angle adjustment. I also have a rudder trim servo attached, but that is a little overkill (https://youtu.be/sKq6PnsM8XU ). 

 

The platform approach gives the most flexibility if you need to do a brake cylinder replacement, or rudder assembly overhaul, or you wish to change the position of the rudder pedals easily, should there be a shorter pilot that takes over after I have had my fun.  

 

Pictures of both mods attached. The platform is held down by two bolts and two nuts (on studs mounted to the canard). The platform can be lifted outside the airplane through the port without disconnecting the brake lines if needed.

 

Cheers,

Jay N8WQ

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Matthew Curcio
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2019 12:26 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations

 

Toe brakes good

-Retain the use of your hands during, startup, taxi, and run up

-conventional arrangement, most people are accustomed To

Bad

-poor access for maintenance, installation, and inspection

-rudder pedals are not designed for the max pilot effort brake loads reacted by the master cylinders.

-some airplanes don’t have the space for the additional travel required.

- rudder pedal remains a single point of failure that would likely result in a loss of ground directional control

 

Finger brakes good

-easy access for installation, maintenance and inspection

- eliminates the rudder pedal and control circuit as a single point of failure resulting in a loss of ground directional control. (Note there are additional spf’s that would still likely result in a loss of ground directional control such as basically everything in the wheel and axle assemblies)

Bad

-atypical configuration requires a learning curve 

-complicates starting and run up as there is not a free hand available to manage the throttle.

 

 

I have the finger brakes and I’m very happy with them, however it is obnoxious during startup, and run up. Much of that could be eliminated if I installed a parking brake valve. I have a really nice finger brake module I designed that you can build entirely out of the airplane and then just glass in place with some tapes. It allows for easy removal and maintenance of all of the components. 

 

I don’t have the space for feet and brakes and I found the maintenance to be an issue. 

 

 

Matthew Curcio

419-290-3773

 



On Dec 2, 2019, at 06:23, Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:

 All true.  The pivot in the tail cone splits to separate the rudder from the tail wheel.  Great control results from that mod!

Bruce 



On Dec 1, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Paul Fisher <rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:



Good point Bruce, thank you for adding that!  My mistake overlooking that point.  

 

However if you do the Jim/Bob six-pack with the pivot in the tailcone, I believe the toebrakes will continue to work even if you break the tailspring.

 

Paul

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:54 Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:

I have toe brakes but Paul failed to mention if  you are a tail dragger and your tail spring breaks you won't have directional steering if you have toe brakes but finger brakes will still work.  Just and extra thing to think about.

Bruce

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Paul Fisher" <rv7a.n18pf@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Q2/200 configurations
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 22:48:22 -0600

I have the dual finger brakes (~1600 hours over 29 years).  My master cylinders are just forward of the instrument panel where they are very easy to access.  I can't imagine having to climb down under the panel to work on them if I had toe brakes.

 

Bottom line is I like the finger brakes because of ease of maintenance (because you WILL have to maintain them!).  Operationally either will work fine.  

 

Paul Fisher

Q-200 N17PF

 

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019, 22:36 n7000t via Groups.Io <n7000t=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi everyone,
Could people weigh in on toe brakes versus the split lever brake system.
Maybe Sam Hoskins and Jim Patillo could weigh in as they seem to be on the opposite side of my question.
thanks in advance!

mike Q200wannabe