Good stuff Alan – Thanks!

There is another thing that Alan does that is pretty darn smart.  He’s from near sea level and sucks oxygen while up high.  I believe that this is slightly less significant for a person (healthy) that is acclimated to 6,000-7,000’ (flying at 11,000-12,000’) but asking a body to do that from sea level is asking a lot. 

Those little finger tip blood oxygen meters (like this one) are pretty cheap and could be of significant benefit!

Another thing to consider….

Jon

--
Jon Finley
Somewhere in the Southwest flying an RV-4

On Aug 31, 2020, at 1:39 AM, millenniumflier via groups.io <millenniumflier@...> wrote:



Hi Everybody,

I’ve been following Jon’s thoughts on mountain flying very closely, and yes, Jon was one of the people I had listened to very carefully, especially in preparation for my first flight to Enid from Livermore, California in 2018. And not only Jon, but my flight instructor, and many others here at Livermore and from our Q group. I had spent just about a year in preparing for my first trip out, looking at routes, I had three actually all mapped out, taking into account actual FAA reports of wind, DA, weather conditions, you name it, from the time of year that we typically do the FOD to have a realistic characterization of what to expect.  And being that this was my first long cross-country, I listened well. The Bible teaches that in the abundance of counselors, there is wisdom. Wisdom also lies in not only listening, but also doing what is hopefully going in to the old noggin …. Consequently, I learned a ton of stuff about mountain flying that has served me well in these years since. This stuff is serious, wind can be as unforgiving as gravity, and I learned a long time ago from Marc Zeitlin, “I’d rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than being in the air wishing I was on the ground...” I never forgot that.

All that said, my first trip to Enid from Livermore in 2018, though planned to the smallest detail and as prepared as I felt I could be, turned out much differently than I had expected. Out of three possible routes to follow, and multiple looks at the weather daily, weeks before the event, I chose to basically follow I-40, as it offered the least problematic route, the most appealing in real airports to put the plane down in the event of a forced landing, and the least challenging in wind, terrain, and restricted areas. PLUS, it had the advantage of offering a nice, VERY long and wide runway for the entire route, and paved… namely, I-40. The first leg of my trip was great, Livermore to Bullhead City, KIFP, where I over-nighted. However the following day proved to be unexpectedly challenging. The remnants of Tropical Depression 19 were hovering heavily in the air just before Albuquerque that Wednesday, and despite a very early AM departure, there it was, right smack dab before Albuquerque, over two hours out of KIFP, with no clearing as far as the eye could see, north, or south. One humongously long, black front. The only thing I could do was to pull a 180 and return to Bullhead City, where I knew I had a hotel, and services and then formulate a Plan B. I called Bruce, who suggested that Matthew Curcio in Tehachapi was planning on attending, and was leaving the following day, and maybe I could follow him out. Turned out to be a great plan, and though un-planned to make that flight all in one day, and not following I-40, but staying well south of the Rockies nevertheless, that’s what happened: Tehachapi to Moore County, where we re-fueled, and pulled in to Enid that afternoon. Thanks again, Matthew!  I would never have flown that leg by myself.  My return to Livermore was much more conventional, allowing me to use my plan and it was a textbook flight, departing on each of my 3 legs EARLY AM and pulling in to my next destination well before the winds had a chance of picking up.  

Last year, 2019, no rain at all enroute, and being similarly prepared, I once again chose to follow I-40, and again, it was textbook. Livermore to Bullhead City, then Kingman, Williams Clark, Winslow, (REALLY cool to see the Meteor Crater!), P14, Grants, Albuquerque, Santa Rosa, Tucumcari (GREAT dinosaur museum!), Amarillo, Woodward, Enid. Jon Finley had flown in to Tucumcari very early Thursday AM, and we departed as a flight of 2 to Enid, and arrived well before lunch. No wind to speak of, no getting beat up in the air, no sneaker winds, really good flying weather, and no worries about altitude or restricted areas. My return was equally as enjoyable, though I decided not to overnight again in Tucumcari, due to challenging weather passing through the following day that I wanted to beat, so I went on to Bullhead City after getting fuel, and landed well ahead of the weather, after a really great flight. Winds were mercifully calm but again, we had left Enid early enough to avoid the really bad stuff that usually accumulates in the mid-afternoons.

Anyway, I know this went on longer than I had anticipated, but I wanted to emphasize that for me, as a relatively low-time pilot, with 450 hours, I knew I needed to be prepared, to make a plan and stick with it, and don’t court the unexpected… or turn to the dark side...  again, I don’t want to be in the air, wishing I was on the ground. Rather, I count myself wiser, safer and still alive, being cautious yet smart in doing things right. I say all this, adding that I’m also the original chicken, and for my first long cross-countries, I’m grateful for all who shared with me things that I needed to know and be aware of years ahead. My thanks again to Jon, Bruce, Paul, Terry, Bob Farnam, and countless others who spent time with me on the phone, sharing their experience and wisdom, and making my first long cross-country flight memorable for the right reasons!

Alan

P.S. For my trip last year, shameless plug here, check out my video that i posted on YouTube, if you haven't already seen it, a fun encapsulation of our FOD last year.  Google:  2019 Field of Dreams Enid OK

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-----Original Message-----

From: Jon Finley <jd@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Thu, Aug 27, 2020 5:38 am
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Field of Dreams Reunion 2020!

It appears I got your attention – that’s good, mountain flying is serious – and especially so during the summer. 

 

Now, to back it down a notch…

 

The capability of the aircraft is of great importance to this discussion, obviously. Some aircraft have no business in the mountains. In this case (your O-320 powered RV-6), it has good performance/capability (assuming typical RV).

 

Mountain west flying is much different than non-mountainous areas. In most non-mountainous areas, one can look out the window and make a reasonably good determination about the suitability for VFR flying. Clouds, visibility and wind is pretty obvious. In most cases, all you need is a couple thousand feet to get from A to B.

 

In the southwest, 365 days a year are flyable VFR (pessimistically, 363 days). The clouds that occur are almost always high, thunderstorms are very obvious (from 50 miles away) and visibility is nearly always 50-100 miles. Depending on your location, the wind may be calm/minimal (especially in the morning). However; the mountains really mess with the APPARENT conditions. You will likely need to climb to 10,000’ to get from point A to B.  Wind at altitude is like a mixing machine and causes all sorts of “movement” close to the surface. It also “directs” the wind so you can get very high canyon wind at point A while point B (a couple miles away) is calm. They (mountains) also cause very uneven heating & thus thermals.  These two things (winds aloft and heating) can make for a VERY rough ride. I know a guy that destroyed a C-210 flying over the mountains on the wrong day. He never touched the ground but landed with an airframe so bent/twisted that it was unrepairable. Morning flying generally avoids the heating/thermal affect. The only thing you can do about winds aloft is watch the forecast (https://aviationweather.gov/windtemp/plot) for the day and time that you will be airborne (Windy.com is another excellent tool).  Rarely do significant moisture systems (clouds) move thru at an altitude low enough to be of concern. When they do, they are obvious/visible from a long ways away and easily avoided.

 

You can certainly fly in the afternoon on a summer day. One can “plan” well in advance but it is impossible to make a decision about that plan more than a couple of days in advance. This is largely due to the winds aloft forecast. I have the advantage of flying a lot and being very familiar with the entire southwest and I don’t plan more than a day or two out.

 

While I don’t like hearing about unprepared people flying the mountains, I also don’t like to see people unnecessarily avoiding the mountains. IMO, that flying is about as beautiful as it gets and so many folks miss out on it.

 

If I were flying SAN -> TCS and weather/winds aloft acceptable, I would be airborne at the crack of dawn and fly SAN -> AZ06 -> CGZ (fuel stop) -> TCS. I would divert slightly north of course to view Coolidge Dam (cause it is really cool). Not sure about the -6 but, in the -4, this is possible without a fuel stop if wind is favorable. I like having options so would make the one fuel stop - CGZ appears to have the cheapest fuel in the area. If I got REALLY hungry and not in a hurry; I might stop at P13 (San Carlos Apache – no services), walk across the street to the casinos, and have a big casino breakfast (not sure if they are open in these Covid times). If you like adding ‘places I’ve landed’ to your logbook; Eloy (E60 – where Viking Aircraft once existed with the Dragonfly (though can be a busy place)) and Kearny (E67 – very pretty little spot) are neat options.  This route will take you over the Gila Wilderness area (beautiful) and MeOwn (1NM0) which is one of our backcountry airstrips that I visit often. 

 

I gave Alan this same speech a couple years ago (more northern route over FLG). It would be interesting to hear his perspective on it now that he has flown it the last couple years.

 

Will the winds be ok at 6pm? How about noon? Ask me the day before the flight.

 

Yes, the southern half of the restricted airspace around White Sands requires flying the narrow corridor that is basically highway 54 (to get to ALM).

 

Yes, I can haul a “reasonably sized” bag or two.

 

If anyone is tired of this discussion, please speak up and we’ll swap to private messages.

 

Jon

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phil Lankford via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 7:29 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Field of Dreams Reunion 2020!

 

Thanks, Bruce and Jon. So, planning to meet up with Jon in TCS and flight of 2 from there. That means I need to be in TCS some time Wednesday. Jon is advising that mornings good, afternoons bad! If I tried to drop into TCS Wednesday pm the temps would still likely be in the 90s but hopefully the winds would calm down toward 6:00 pm maybe?   I might feel alright about that if weather permits. Otherwise I will launch out early Wednesday and get in to TCS around 10:00 am. I’m afraid Jon is going to give me a talking to. 

 

Another thought to ponder - if I fly out solo I might be able to pick up John Hoxie at ALM. Do folks fly up hwy 54 from ELP to ALM along that corridor between restricted areas?

 

Phil

N76GZ RV6-A

On Aug 27, 2020, at 3:03 PM, Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:

I 54 is a really tight corridor!  How long are your wings Jon?  Mine are 18’!  By the way we will feed you well at Field Of Dreams so pace yourselves.

Bruce

On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:03 PM, John Hoxie via groups.io <hoxdesigns@...> wrote:



Phil,

One of the guys in my chapter and hangar has an RV-6A. He has been down a couple months reworking nose gear and other things. Not sure when he will be flyable or if he would want to fly to FOD. Normally FOD in aviation is a bad thing. ha ha.

 

John Hoxie

He is no fool, who gives up what he can not keep, to gain what he can not loose -- Jim Elliot

On Thursday, August 27, 2020, 08:58:58 AM MDT, John Hoxie via groups.io <hoxdesigns@...> wrote:

Phil,

That is exactly how they fly north to ALM.

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:22 AM, Paul Fisher

<rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:

Please don't stop Jon!  I'm enjoying the lessons on mountain flying.  I've been to the southwest a few times and survived, but I am by no means experienced.  So keep going!

Paul

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 07:38 Jon Finley <jd@...> wrote:

It appears I got your attention – that’s good, mountain flying is serious – and especially so during the summer. 

 

Now, to back it down a notch…

 

The capability of the aircraft is of great importance to this discussion, obviously. Some aircraft have no business in the mountains. In this case (your O-320 powered RV-6), it has good performance/capability (assuming typical RV).

 

Mountain west flying is much different than non-mountainous areas. In most non-mountainous areas, one can look out the window and make a reasonably good determination about the suitability for VFR flying. Clouds, visibility and wind is pretty obvious. In most cases, all you need is a couple thousand feet to get from A to B.

 

In the southwest, 365 days a year are flyable VFR (pessimistically, 363 days). The clouds that occur are almost always high, thunderstorms are very obvious (from 50 miles away) and visibility is nearly always 50-100 miles. Depending on your location, the wind may be calm/minimal (especially in the morning). However; the mountains really mess with the APPARENT conditions. You will likely need to climb to 10,000’ to get from point A to B.  Wind at altitude is like a mixing machine and causes all sorts of “movement” close to the surface. It also “directs” the wind so you can get very high canyon wind at point A while point B (a couple miles away) is calm. They (mountains) also cause very uneven heating & thus thermals.  These two things (winds aloft and heating) can make for a VERY rough ride. I know a guy that destroyed a C-210 flying over the mountains on the wrong day. He never touched the ground but landed with an airframe so bent/twisted that it was unrepairable. Morning flying generally avoids the heating/thermal affect. The only thing you can do about winds aloft is watch the forecast (https://aviationweather.gov/windtemp/plot) for the day and time that you will be airborne (Windy.com is another excellent tool).  Rarely do significant moisture systems (clouds) move thru at an altitude low enough to be of concern. When they do, they are obvious/visible from a long ways away and easily avoided.

 

You can certainly fly in the afternoon on a summer day. One can “plan” well in advance but it is impossible to make a decision about that plan more than a couple of days in advance. This is largely due to the winds aloft forecast. I have the advantage of flying a lot and being very familiar with the entire southwest and I don’t plan more than a day or two out.

 

While I don’t like hearing about unprepared people flying the mountains, I also don’t like to see people unnecessarily avoiding the mountains. IMO, that flying is about as beautiful as it gets and so many folks miss out on it.

 

If I were flying SAN -> TCS and weather/winds aloft acceptable, I would be airborne at the crack of dawn and fly SAN -> AZ06 -> CGZ (fuel stop) -> TCS. I would divert slightly north of course to view Coolidge Dam (cause it is really cool). Not sure about the -6 but, in the -4, this is possible without a fuel stop if wind is favorable. I like having options so would make the one fuel stop - CGZ appears to have the cheapest fuel in the area. If I got REALLY hungry and not in a hurry; I might stop at P13 (San Carlos Apache – no services), walk across the street to the casinos, and have a big casino breakfast (not sure if they are open in these Covid times). If you like adding ‘places I’ve landed’ to your logbook; Eloy (E60 – where Viking Aircraft once existed with the Dragonfly (though can be a busy place)) and Kearny (E67 – very pretty little spot) are neat options.  This route will take you over the Gila Wilderness area (beautiful) and MeOwn (1NM0) which is one of our backcountry airstrips that I visit often. 

 

I gave Alan this same speech a couple years ago (more northern route over FLG). It would be interesting to hear his perspective on it now that he has flown it the last couple years.

 

Will the winds be ok at 6pm? How about noon? Ask me the day before the flight.

 

Yes, the southern half of the restricted airspace around White Sands requires flying the narrow corridor that is basically highway 54 (to get to ALM).

 

Yes, I can haul a “reasonably sized” bag or two.

 

If anyone is tired of this discussion, please speak up and we’ll swap to private messages.

 

Jon

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phil Lankford via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 7:29 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Field of Dreams Reunion 2020!

 

Thanks, Bruce and Jon. So, planning to meet up with Jon in TCS and flight of 2 from there. That means I need to be in TCS some time Wednesday. Jon is advising that mornings good, afternoons bad! If I tried to drop into TCS Wednesday pm the temps would still likely be in the 90s but hopefully the winds would calm down toward 6:00 pm maybe?   I might feel alright about that if weather permits. Otherwise I will launch out early Wednesday and get in to TCS around 10:00 am. I’m afraid Jon is going to give me a talking to. 

 

Another thought to ponder - if I fly out solo I might be able to pick up John Hoxie at ALM. Do folks fly up hwy 54 from ELP to ALM along that corridor between restricted areas?

 

Phil

N76GZ RV6-A

On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:03 PM, John Hoxie via groups.io <hoxdesigns@...> wrote:



Phil,

One of the guys in my chapter and hangar has an RV-6A. He has been down a couple months reworking nose gear and other things. Not sure when he will be flyable or if he would want to fly to FOD. Normally FOD in aviation is a bad thing. ha ha.

 

John Hoxie

He is no fool, who gives up what he can not keep, to gain what he can not loose -- Jim Elliot

On Thursday, August 27, 2020, 08:58:58 AM MDT, John Hoxie via groups.io <hoxdesigns@...> wrote:

Phil,

That is exactly how they fly north to ALM.

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:22 AM, Paul Fisher

<rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:

Please don't stop Jon!  I'm enjoying the lessons on mountain flying.  I've been to the southwest a few times and survived, but I am by no means experienced.  So keep going!

Paul

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 07:38 Jon Finley <jd@...> wrote:

It appears I got your attention – that’s good, mountain flying is serious – and especially so during the summer. 

 

Now, to back it down a notch…

 

The capability of the aircraft is of great importance to this discussion, obviously. Some aircraft have no business in the mountains. In this case (your O-320 powered RV-6), it has good performance/capability (assuming typical RV).

 

Mountain west flying is much different than non-mountainous areas. In most non-mountainous areas, one can look out the window and make a reasonably good determination about the suitability for VFR flying. Clouds, visibility and wind is pretty obvious. In most cases, all you need is a couple thousand feet to get from A to B.

 

In the southwest, 365 days a year are flyable VFR (pessimistically, 363 days). The clouds that occur are almost always high, thunderstorms are very obvious (from 50 miles away) and visibility is nearly always 50-100 miles. Depending on your location, the wind may be calm/minimal (especially in the morning). However; the mountains really mess with the APPARENT conditions. You will likely need to climb to 10,000’ to get from point A to B.  Wind at altitude is like a mixing machine and causes all sorts of “movement” close to the surface. It also “directs” the wind so you can get very high canyon wind at point A while point B (a couple miles away) is calm. They (mountains) also cause very uneven heating & thus thermals.  These two things (winds aloft and heating) can make for a VERY rough ride. I know a guy that destroyed a C-210 flying over the mountains on the wrong day. He never touched the ground but landed with an airframe so bent/twisted that it was unrepairable. Morning flying generally avoids the heating/thermal affect. The only thing you can do about winds aloft is watch the forecast (https://aviationweather.gov/windtemp/plot) for the day and time that you will be airborne (Windy.com is another excellent tool).  Rarely do significant moisture systems (clouds) move thru at an altitude low enough to be of concern. When they do, they are obvious/visible from a long ways away and easily avoided.

 

You can certainly fly in the afternoon on a summer day. One can “plan” well in advance but it is impossible to make a decision about that plan more than a couple of days in advance. This is largely due to the winds aloft forecast. I have the advantage of flying a lot and being very familiar with the entire southwest and I don’t plan more than a day or two out.

 

While I don’t like hearing about unprepared people flying the mountains, I also don’t like to see people unnecessarily avoiding the mountains. IMO, that flying is about as beautiful as it gets and so many folks miss out on it.

 

If I were flying SAN -> TCS and weather/winds aloft acceptable, I would be airborne at the crack of dawn and fly SAN -> AZ06 -> CGZ (fuel stop) -> TCS. I would divert slightly north of course to view Coolidge Dam (cause it is really cool). Not sure about the -6 but, in the -4, this is possible without a fuel stop if wind is favorable. I like having options so would make the one fuel stop - CGZ appears to have the cheapest fuel in the area. If I got REALLY hungry and not in a hurry; I might stop at P13 (San Carlos Apache – no services), walk across the street to the casinos, and have a big casino breakfast (not sure if they are open in these Covid times). If you like adding ‘places I’ve landed’ to your logbook; Eloy (E60 – where Viking Aircraft once existed with the Dragonfly (though can be a busy place)) and Kearny (E67 – very pretty little spot) are neat options.  This route will take you over the Gila Wilderness area (beautiful) and MeOwn (1NM0) which is one of our backcountry airstrips that I visit often. 

 

I gave Alan this same speech a couple years ago (more northern route over FLG). It would be interesting to hear his perspective on it now that he has flown it the last couple years.

 

Will the winds be ok at 6pm? How about noon? Ask me the day before the flight.

 

Yes, the southern half of the restricted airspace around White Sands requires flying the narrow corridor that is basically highway 54 (to get to ALM).

 

Yes, I can haul a “reasonably sized” bag or two.

 

If anyone is tired of this discussion, please speak up and we’ll swap to private messages.

 

Jon

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phil Lankford via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 7:29 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Field of Dreams Reunion 2020!

 

Thanks, Bruce and Jon. So, planning to meet up with Jon in TCS and flight of 2 from there. That means I need to be in TCS some time Wednesday. Jon is advising that mornings good, afternoons bad! If I tried to drop into TCS Wednesday pm the temps would still likely be in the 90s but hopefully the winds would calm down toward 6:00 pm maybe?   I might feel alright about that if weather permits. Otherwise I will launch out early Wednesday and get in to TCS around 10:00 am. I’m afraid Jon is going to give me a talking to. 

 

Another thought to ponder - if I fly out solo I might be able to pick up John Hoxie at ALM. Do folks fly up hwy 54 from ELP to ALM along that corridor between restricted areas?

 

Phil

N76GZ RV6-A

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:22 AM, Paul Fisher

<rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:

Please don't stop Jon!  I'm enjoying the lessons on mountain flying.  I've been to the southwest a few times and survived, but I am by no means experienced.  So keep going!

Paul

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 07:38 Jon Finley <jd@...> wrote:

It appears I got your attention – that’s good, mountain flying is serious – and especially so during the summer. 

 

Now, to back it down a notch…

 

The capability of the aircraft is of great importance to this discussion, obviously. Some aircraft have no business in the mountains. In this case (your O-320 powered RV-6), it has good performance/capability (assuming typical RV).

 

Mountain west flying is much different than non-mountainous areas. In most non-mountainous areas, one can look out the window and make a reasonably good determination about the suitability for VFR flying. Clouds, visibility and wind is pretty obvious. In most cases, all you need is a couple thousand feet to get from A to B.

 

In the southwest, 365 days a year are flyable VFR (pessimistically, 363 days). The clouds that occur are almost always high, thunderstorms are very obvious (from 50 miles away) and visibility is nearly always 50-100 miles. Depending on your location, the wind may be calm/minimal (especially in the morning). However; the mountains really mess with the APPARENT conditions. You will likely need to climb to 10,000’ to get from point A to B.  Wind at altitude is like a mixing machine and causes all sorts of “movement” close to the surface. It also “directs” the wind so you can get very high canyon wind at point A while point B (a couple miles away) is calm. They (mountains) also cause very uneven heating & thus thermals.  These two things (winds aloft and heating) can make for a VERY rough ride. I know a guy that destroyed a C-210 flying over the mountains on the wrong day. He never touched the ground but landed with an airframe so bent/twisted that it was unrepairable. Morning flying generally avoids the heating/thermal affect. The only thing you can do about winds aloft is watch the forecast (https://aviationweather.gov/windtemp/plot) for the day and time that you will be airborne (Windy.com is another excellent tool).  Rarely do significant moisture systems (clouds) move thru at an altitude low enough to be of concern. When they do, they are obvious/visible from a long ways away and easily avoided.

 

You can certainly fly in the afternoon on a summer day. One can “plan” well in advance but it is impossible to make a decision about that plan more than a couple of days in advance. This is largely due to the winds aloft forecast. I have the advantage of flying a lot and being very familiar with the entire southwest and I don’t plan more than a day or two out.

 

While I don’t like hearing about unprepared people flying the mountains, I also don’t like to see people unnecessarily avoiding the mountains. IMO, that flying is about as beautiful as it gets and so many folks miss out on it.

 

If I were flying SAN -> TCS and weather/winds aloft acceptable, I would be airborne at the crack of dawn and fly SAN -> AZ06 -> CGZ (fuel stop) -> TCS. I would divert slightly north of course to view Coolidge Dam (cause it is really cool). Not sure about the -6 but, in the -4, this is possible without a fuel stop if wind is favorable. I like having options so would make the one fuel stop - CGZ appears to have the cheapest fuel in the area. If I got REALLY hungry and not in a hurry; I might stop at P13 (San Carlos Apache – no services), walk across the street to the casinos, and have a big casino breakfast (not sure if they are open in these Covid times). If you like adding ‘places I’ve landed’ to your logbook; Eloy (E60 – where Viking Aircraft once existed with the Dragonfly (though can be a busy place)) and Kearny (E67 – very pretty little spot) are neat options.  This route will take you over the Gila Wilderness area (beautiful) and MeOwn (1NM0) which is one of our backcountry airstrips that I visit often. 

 

I gave Alan this same speech a couple years ago (more northern route over FLG). It would be interesting to hear his perspective on it now that he has flown it the last couple years.

 

Will the winds be ok at 6pm? How about noon? Ask me the day before the flight.

 

Yes, the southern half of the restricted airspace around White Sands requires flying the narrow corridor that is basically highway 54 (to get to ALM).

 

Yes, I can haul a “reasonably sized” bag or two.

 

If anyone is tired of this discussion, please speak up and we’ll swap to private messages.

 

Jon

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phil Lankford via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 7:29 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Field of Dreams Reunion 2020!

 

Thanks, Bruce and Jon. So, planning to meet up with Jon in TCS and flight of 2 from there. That means I need to be in TCS some time Wednesday. Jon is advising that mornings good, afternoons bad! If I tried to drop into TCS Wednesday pm the temps would still likely be in the 90s but hopefully the winds would calm down toward 6:00 pm maybe?   I might feel alright about that if weather permits. Otherwise I will launch out early Wednesday and get in to TCS around 10:00 am. I’m afraid Jon is going to give me a talking to. 

 

Another thought to ponder - if I fly out solo I might be able to pick up John Hoxie at ALM. Do folks fly up hwy 54 from ELP to ALM along that corridor between restricted areas?

 

Phil

N76GZ RV6-A

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:22 AM, Paul Fisher

<rv7a.n18pf@...> wrote:

Please don't stop Jon!  I'm enjoying the lessons on mountain flying.  I've been to the southwest a few times and survived, but I am by no means experienced.  So keep going!

Paul

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 07:38 Jon Finley <jd@...> wrote:

It appears I got your attention – that’s good, mountain flying is serious – and especially so during the summer. 

 

Now, to back it down a notch…

 

The capability of the aircraft is of great importance to this discussion, obviously. Some aircraft have no business in the mountains. In this case (your O-320 powered RV-6), it has good performance/capability (assuming typical RV).

 

Mountain west flying is much different than non-mountainous areas. In most non-mountainous areas, one can look out the window and make a reasonably good determination about the suitability for VFR flying. Clouds, visibility and wind is pretty obvious. In most cases, all you need is a couple thousand feet to get from A to B.

 

In the southwest, 365 days a year are flyable VFR (pessimistically, 363 days). The clouds that occur are almost always high, thunderstorms are very obvious (from 50 miles away) and visibility is nearly always 50-100 miles. Depending on your location, the wind may be calm/minimal (especially in the morning). However; the mountains really mess with the APPARENT conditions. You will likely need to climb to 10,000’ to get from point A to B.  Wind at altitude is like a mixing machine and causes all sorts of “movement” close to the surface. It also “directs” the wind so you can get very high canyon wind at point A while point B (a couple miles away) is calm. They (mountains) also cause very uneven heating & thus thermals.  These two things (winds aloft and heating) can make for a VERY rough ride. I know a guy that destroyed a C-210 flying over the mountains on the wrong day. He never touched the ground but landed with an airframe so bent/twisted that it was unrepairable. Morning flying generally avoids the heating/thermal affect. The only thing you can do about winds aloft is watch the forecast (https://aviationweather.gov/windtemp/plot) for the day and time that you will be airborne (Windy.com is another excellent tool).  Rarely do significant moisture systems (clouds) move thru at an altitude low enough to be of concern. When they do, they are obvious/visible from a long ways away and easily avoided.

 

You can certainly fly in the afternoon on a summer day. One can “plan” well in advance but it is impossible to make a decision about that plan more than a couple of days in advance. This is largely due to the winds aloft forecast. I have the advantage of flying a lot and being very familiar with the entire southwest and I don’t plan more than a day or two out.

 

While I don’t like hearing about unprepared people flying the mountains, I also don’t like to see people unnecessarily avoiding the mountains. IMO, that flying is about as beautiful as it gets and so many folks miss out on it.

 

If I were flying SAN -> TCS and weather/winds aloft acceptable, I would be airborne at the crack of dawn and fly SAN -> AZ06 -> CGZ (fuel stop) -> TCS. I would divert slightly north of course to view Coolidge Dam (cause it is really cool). Not sure about the -6 but, in the -4, this is possible without a fuel stop if wind is favorable. I like having options so would make the one fuel stop - CGZ appears to have the cheapest fuel in the area. If I got REALLY hungry and not in a hurry; I might stop at P13 (San Carlos Apache – no services), walk across the street to the casinos, and have a big casino breakfast (not sure if they are open in these Covid times). If you like adding ‘places I’ve landed’ to your logbook; Eloy (E60 – where Viking Aircraft once existed with the Dragonfly (though can be a busy place)) and Kearny (E67 – very pretty little spot) are neat options.  This route will take you over the Gila Wilderness area (beautiful) and MeOwn (1NM0) which is one of our backcountry airstrips that I visit often. 

 

I gave Alan this same speech a couple years ago (more northern route over FLG). It would be interesting to hear his perspective on it now that he has flown it the last couple years.

 

Will the winds be ok at 6pm? How about noon? Ask me the day before the flight.

 

Yes, the southern half of the restricted airspace around White Sands requires flying the narrow corridor that is basically highway 54 (to get to ALM).

 

Yes, I can haul a “reasonably sized” bag or two.

 

If anyone is tired of this discussion, please speak up and we’ll swap to private messages.

 

Jon

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phil Lankford via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 7:29 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Field of Dreams Reunion 2020!

 

Thanks, Bruce and Jon. So, planning to meet up with Jon in TCS and flight of 2 from there. That means I need to be in TCS some time Wednesday. Jon is advising that mornings good, afternoons bad! If I tried to drop into TCS Wednesday pm the temps would still likely be in the 90s but hopefully the winds would calm down toward 6:00 pm maybe?   I might feel alright about that if weather permits. Otherwise I will launch out early Wednesday and get in to TCS around 10:00 am. I’m afraid Jon is going to give me a talking to. 

 

Another thought to ponder - if I fly out solo I might be able to pick up John Hoxie at ALM. Do folks fly up hwy 54 from ELP to ALM along that corridor between restricted areas?

 

Phil

N76GZ RV6-A

Very nice, Jon.  One of the few flight recommendations that I have seen that focused nicely on dining options!  

Cheers,

Jay

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jon Finley
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 6:39 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Field of Dreams Reunion 2020!

It appears I got your attention – that’s good, mountain flying is serious – and especially so during the summer. 

Now, to back it down a notch…

The capability of the aircraft is of great importance to this discussion, obviously. Some aircraft have no business in the mountains. In this case (your O-320 powered RV-6), it has good performance/capability (assuming typical RV).

Mountain west flying is much different than non-mountainous areas. In most non-mountainous areas, one can look out the window and make a reasonably good determination about the suitability for VFR flying. Clouds, visibility and wind is pretty obvious. In most cases, all you need is a couple thousand feet to get from A to B.

In the southwest, 365 days a year are flyable VFR (pessimistically, 363 days). The clouds that occur are almost always high, thunderstorms are very obvious (from 50 miles away) and visibility is nearly always 50-100 miles. Depending on your location, the wind may be calm/minimal (especially in the morning). However; the mountains really mess with the APPARENT conditions. You will likely need to climb to 10,000’ to get from point A to B.  Wind at altitude is like a mixing machine and causes all sorts of “movement” close to the surface. It also “directs” the wind so you can get very high canyon wind at point A while point B (a couple miles away) is calm. They (mountains) also cause very uneven heating & thus thermals.  These two things (winds aloft and heating) can make for a VERY rough ride. I know a guy that destroyed a C-210 flying over the mountains on the wrong day. He never touched the ground but landed with an airframe so bent/twisted that it was unrepairable. Morning flying generally avoids the heating/thermal affect. The only thing you can do about winds aloft is watch the forecast (https://aviationweather.gov/windtemp/plot) for the day and time that you will be airborne (Windy.com is another excellent tool).  Rarely do significant moisture systems (clouds) move thru at an altitude low enough to be of concern. When they do, they are obvious/visible from a long ways away and easily avoided.

You can certainly fly in the afternoon on a summer day. One can “plan” well in advance but it is impossible to make a decision about that plan more than a couple of days in advance. This is largely due to the winds aloft forecast. I have the advantage of flying a lot and being very familiar with the entire southwest and I don’t plan more than a day or two out.

While I don’t like hearing about unprepared people flying the mountains, I also don’t like to see people unnecessarily avoiding the mountains. IMO, that flying is about as beautiful as it gets and so many folks miss out on it.

If I were flying SAN -> TCS and weather/winds aloft acceptable, I would be airborne at the crack of dawn and fly SAN -> AZ06 -> CGZ (fuel stop) -> TCS. I would divert slightly north of course to view Coolidge Dam (cause it is really cool). Not sure about the -6 but, in the -4, this is possible without a fuel stop if wind is favorable. I like having options so would make the one fuel stop - CGZ appears to have the cheapest fuel in the area. If I got REALLY hungry and not in a hurry; I might stop at P13 (San Carlos Apache – no services), walk across the street to the casinos, and have a big casino breakfast (not sure if they are open in these Covid times). If you like adding ‘places I’ve landed’ to your logbook; Eloy (E60 – where Viking Aircraft once existed with the Dragonfly (though can be a busy place)) and Kearny (E67 – very pretty little spot) are neat options.  This route will take you over the Gila Wilderness area (beautiful) and MeOwn (1NM0) which is one of our backcountry airstrips that I visit often. 

I gave Alan this same speech a couple years ago (more northern route over FLG). It would be interesting to hear his perspective on it now that he has flown it the last couple years.

Will the winds be ok at 6pm? How about noon? Ask me the day before the flight.

Yes, the southern half of the restricted airspace around White Sands requires flying the narrow corridor that is basically highway 54 (to get to ALM).

Yes, I can haul a “reasonably sized” bag or two.

If anyone is tired of this discussion, please speak up and we’ll swap to private messages.

Jon

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jon Finley
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2020 6:39 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Field of Dreams Reunion 2020!

It appears I got your attention – that’s good, mountain flying is serious – and especially so during the summer. 

Now, to back it down a notch…

The capability of the aircraft is of great importance to this discussion, obviously. Some aircraft have no business in the mountains. In this case (your O-320 powered RV-6), it has good performance/capability (assuming typical RV).

Mountain west flying is much different than non-mountainous areas. In most non-mountainous areas, one can look out the window and make a reasonably good determination about the suitability for VFR flying. Clouds, visibility and wind is pretty obvious. In most cases, all you need is a couple thousand feet to get from A to B.

In the southwest, 365 days a year are flyable VFR (pessimistically, 363 days). The clouds that occur are almost always high, thunderstorms are very obvious (from 50 miles away) and visibility is nearly always 50-100 miles. Depending on your location, the wind may be calm/minimal (especially in the morning). However; the mountains really mess with the APPARENT conditions. You will likely need to climb to 10,000’ to get from point A to B.  Wind at altitude is like a mixing machine and causes all sorts of “movement” close to the surface. It also “directs” the wind so you can get very high canyon wind at point A while point B (a couple miles away) is calm. They (mountains) also cause very uneven heating & thus thermals.  These two things (winds aloft and heating) can make for a VERY rough ride. I know a guy that destroyed a C-210 flying over the mountains on the wrong day. He never touched the ground but landed with an airframe so bent/twisted that it was unrepairable. Morning flying generally avoids the heating/thermal affect. The only thing you can do about winds aloft is watch the forecast (https://aviationweather.gov/windtemp/plot) for the day and time that you will be airborne (Windy.com is another excellent tool).  Rarely do significant moisture systems (clouds) move thru at an altitude low enough to be of concern. When they do, they are obvious/visible from a long ways away and easily avoided.

You can certainly fly in the afternoon on a summer day. One can “plan” well in advance but it is impossible to make a decision about that plan more than a couple of days in advance. This is largely due to the winds aloft forecast. I have the advantage of flying a lot and being very familiar with the entire southwest and I don’t plan more than a day or two out.

While I don’t like hearing about unprepared people flying the mountains, I also don’t like to see people unnecessarily avoiding the mountains. IMO, that flying is about as beautiful as it gets and so many folks miss out on it.

If I were flying SAN -> TCS and weather/winds aloft acceptable, I would be airborne at the crack of dawn and fly SAN -> AZ06 -> CGZ (fuel stop) -> TCS. I would divert slightly north of course to view Coolidge Dam (cause it is really cool). Not sure about the -6 but, in the -4, this is possible without a fuel stop if wind is favorable. I like having options so would make the one fuel stop - CGZ appears to have the cheapest fuel in the area. If I got REALLY hungry and not in a hurry; I might stop at P13 (San Carlos Apache – no services), walk across the street to the casinos, and have a big casino breakfast (not sure if they are open in these Covid times). If you like adding ‘places I’ve landed’ to your logbook; Eloy (E60 – where Viking Aircraft once existed with the Dragonfly (though can be a busy place)) and Kearny (E67 – very pretty little spot) are neat options.  This route will take you over the Gila Wilderness area (beautiful) and MeOwn (1NM0) which is one of our backcountry airstrips that I visit often. 

I gave Alan this same speech a couple years ago (more northern route over FLG). It would be interesting to hear his perspective on it now that he has flown it the last couple years.

Will the winds be ok at 6pm? How about noon? Ask me the day before the flight.

Yes, the southern half of the restricted airspace around White Sands requires flying the narrow corridor that is basically highway 54 (to get to ALM).

Yes, I can haul a “reasonably sized” bag or two.

If anyone is tired of this discussion, please speak up and we’ll swap to private messages.

Jon

Thanks, Bruce and Jon. So, planning to meet up with Jon in TCS and flight of 2 from there. That means I need to be in TCS some time Wednesday. Jon is advising that mornings good, afternoons bad! If I tried to drop into TCS Wednesday pm the temps would still likely be in the 90s but hopefully the winds would calm down toward 6:00 pm maybe?   I might feel alright about that if weather permits. Otherwise I will launch out early Wednesday and get in to TCS around 10:00 am. I’m afraid Jon is going to give me a talking to. 

Thanks, Bruce and Jon. So, planning to meet up with Jon in TCS and flight of 2 from there. That means I need to be in TCS some time Wednesday. Jon is advising that mornings good, afternoons bad! If I tried to drop into TCS Wednesday pm the temps would still likely be in the 90s but hopefully the winds would calm down toward 6:00 pm maybe?   I might feel alright about that if weather permits. Otherwise I will launch out early Wednesday and get in to TCS around 10:00 am. I’m afraid Jon is going to give me a talking to. 

On Aug 26, 2020, at 7:35 PM, John Hoxie via groups.io <hoxdesigns@...> wrote:

Phil & Jon,

Is it possible to combine both your things in TCS & I could fly with one? My total weight will be #170.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 8:27 PM, Bruce Crain

<jcrain2@...> wrote:

I think John Hoxie would “fall down and call you blessed” if you pick him up!  No pressure tho.  Should be fun flying 2 ship!

Be safe!

Bruce

On Aug 26, 2020, at 8:28 PM, Phil Lankford via groups.io <britmcman@...> wrote:



Thanks, Bruce and Jon. So, planning to meet up with Jon in TCS and flight of 2 from there. That means I need to be in TCS some time Wednesday. Jon is advising that mornings good, afternoons bad! If I tried to drop into TCS Wednesday pm the temps would still likely be in the 90s but hopefully the winds would calm down toward 6:00 pm maybe?   I might feel alright about that if weather permits. Otherwise I will launch out early Wednesday and get in to TCS around 10:00 am. I’m afraid Jon is going to give me a talking to. 

Another thought to ponder - if I fly out solo I might be able to pick up John Hoxie at ALM. Do folks fly up hwy 54 from ELP to ALM along that corridor between restricted areas?

Phil

N76GZ RV6-A

On Aug 25, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:



You are on the calendar for Thursday arrival.  Also have your dash 2 and 3 for Thursday!  Let's start early for a great time together!  And that is an offer to everyone!

Bruce 

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Phil Lankford via groups.io" <britmcman@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Field of Dreams Reunion 2020!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 13:53:53 -0700

Just reserved my room in Enid for Thursday, Friday and Saturday and got vacation approved so I plan on being there afternoon Thursday Sept 17. Yipeeeee. 

Phil - this time in a RV6-A

 

On Jun 28, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_Engineering@...> wrote:

Mike,

Are you going to make it to Field  of Dreams 30th this year? It would be really nice to see you there. 

Jim
N46JP Q200

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 8:27 PM, Bruce Crain

<jcrain2@...> wrote:

I think John Hoxie would “fall down and call you blessed” if you pick him up!  No pressure tho.  Should be fun flying 2 ship!

Be safe!

Bruce

On Aug 26, 2020, at 8:28 PM, Phil Lankford via groups.io <britmcman@...> wrote:



Thanks, Bruce and Jon. So, planning to meet up with Jon in TCS and flight of 2 from there. That means I need to be in TCS some time Wednesday. Jon is advising that mornings good, afternoons bad! If I tried to drop into TCS Wednesday pm the temps would still likely be in the 90s but hopefully the winds would calm down toward 6:00 pm maybe?   I might feel alright about that if weather permits. Otherwise I will launch out early Wednesday and get in to TCS around 10:00 am. I’m afraid Jon is going to give me a talking to. 

Another thought to ponder - if I fly out solo I might be able to pick up John Hoxie at ALM. Do folks fly up hwy 54 from ELP to ALM along that corridor between restricted areas?

Phil

N76GZ RV6-A

On Aug 25, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:



You are on the calendar for Thursday arrival.  Also have your dash 2 and 3 for Thursday!  Let's start early for a great time together!  And that is an offer to everyone!

Bruce 

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Phil Lankford via groups.io" <britmcman@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Field of Dreams Reunion 2020!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 13:53:53 -0700

Just reserved my room in Enid for Thursday, Friday and Saturday and got vacation approved so I plan on being there afternoon Thursday Sept 17. Yipeeeee. 

Phil - this time in a RV6-A

 

On Jun 28, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_Engineering@...> wrote:

Mike,

Are you going to make it to Field  of Dreams 30th this year? It would be really nice to see you there. 

Jim
N46JP Q200

On Aug 26, 2020, at 8:28 PM, Phil Lankford via groups.io <britmcman@...> wrote:

Thanks, Bruce and Jon. So, planning to meet up with Jon in TCS and flight of 2 from there. That means I need to be in TCS some time Wednesday. Jon is advising that mornings good, afternoons bad! If I tried to drop into TCS Wednesday pm the temps would still likely be in the 90s but hopefully the winds would calm down toward 6:00 pm maybe?   I might feel alright about that if weather permits. Otherwise I will launch out early Wednesday and get in to TCS around 10:00 am. I’m afraid Jon is going to give me a talking to. 

Another thought to ponder - if I fly out solo I might be able to pick up John Hoxie at ALM. Do folks fly up hwy 54 from ELP to ALM along that corridor between restricted areas?

Phil

N76GZ RV6-A

On Aug 25, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:



You are on the calendar for Thursday arrival.  Also have your dash 2 and 3 for Thursday!  Let's start early for a great time together!  And that is an offer to everyone!

Bruce 

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Phil Lankford via groups.io" <britmcman@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Field of Dreams Reunion 2020!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 13:53:53 -0700

Just reserved my room in Enid for Thursday, Friday and Saturday and got vacation approved so I plan on being there afternoon Thursday Sept 17. Yipeeeee. 

Phil - this time in a RV6-A

 

On Jun 28, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_Engineering@...> wrote:

Mike,

Are you going to make it to Field  of Dreams 30th this year? It would be really nice to see you there. 

Jim
N46JP Q200

On Aug 25, 2020, at 7:58 PM, Bruce Crain <jcrain2@...> wrote:



You are on the calendar for Thursday arrival.  Also have your dash 2 and 3 for Thursday!  Let's start early for a great time together!  And that is an offer to everyone!

Bruce 

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Phil Lankford via groups.io" <britmcman@...>
To: main@q-list.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Field of Dreams Reunion 2020!
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 13:53:53 -0700

Just reserved my room in Enid for Thursday, Friday and Saturday and got vacation approved so I plan on being there afternoon Thursday Sept 17. Yipeeeee. 

Phil - this time in a RV6-A

 

On Jun 28, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_Engineering@...> wrote:

Mike,

Are you going to make it to Field  of Dreams 30th this year? It would be really nice to see you there. 

Jim
N46JP Q200

Just reserved my room in Enid for Thursday, Friday and Saturday and got vacation approved so I plan on being there afternoon Thursday Sept 17. Yipeeeee. 

On Aug 24, 2020, at 1:53 PM, Phil Lankford via groups.io <britmcman@...> wrote:


Just reserved my room in Enid for Thursday, Friday and Saturday and got vacation approved so I plan on being there afternoon Thursday Sept 17. Yipeeeee. 

Phil - this time in a RV6-A

On Jun 28, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_Engineering@...> wrote:



Mike,

Are you going to make it to Field  of Dreams 30th this year? It would be really nice to see you there. 

Jim
N46JP Q200