Foam blocks


Terry Crouch
 

One thing to consider, In the past when I ordered foam from Wicks or Spruce the foam blocks were all usable. If I bought foam for docks I had to trim inches off the sides and top for it to be usable. If you didn't the core would warp so bad it would be unusable.

Terry Crouch
Quickie N14TC


-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Boddicker <trumanst@...>
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 26, 2020 7:03 pm
Subject: Re: [Q-List] 2020 vendors

Here is where I got what I needed.

10”X20”X108” Styrofoam Logs. From Invoice.
3/11/2002

Cope Plastics 
8110 42nd St West
Rock Island IL  61201-7325
309-787-4465  

This will make you cry, $98.91 EA!

Fisher, is there still a cope plastics outlet in the QCA?

Good luck! 

Kevin Boddicker
TriQ 200 N7868B    538 hrs
Luana, IA.



On Oct 25, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:

Close, but that Tommydock stuff is in 48" blocks and we need 50"sections. It's the right material though.

The big billets are out there, these newbies just need to dig a little deeper.

Sam

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 5:12 PM Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...> wrote:

On Sat, Oct 24, 2020 at 11:22 PM Brian Hutchinson via groups.io <brianmh13=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
No recommendation from me for foam. Thanks for bringing up the matter of forces in the foam. I had watched a video on Metallurgy the other day considering the crystalline structure and it was said the forces move through the metal in a way that is similar to the way described here. Though I don't think the foam experiences true shear load (90 degree to the upper and lower surfaces) the forces wound think are variable and related to amount of deflection of wing tip to root. Vertically laminated seems the best way to join foam blocks I agree. These are the "little" considerations that have big effects and are what needs to be discussed in my opinion more important than enduring debates on why auto conversion engines are the devil and such.






 

I found a supplier in tulsa with exact 2lbs density dow foam about $313 total for billets no shipping since I can drive and get them. They've even offered to see if their fabrication services can cut them for me. I purchased the AUTOCAD pack from Quickheads. I need to check in with Jon Matcho so I can get the data. It hasnt given me access to download yet. If they can cut the foam for me for cheap I may go that route and save an afternoon or 10 of making blocks. 


Rob de Bie
 

Manybe one more thing to consider: are all XPS foam blocks of the same mechanical quality? I seem to remember some stern warnings on this list in the past NOT to use just any 2 lbs XPS foam block.

Rob


One Sky Dog
 

Extruded foam not expanded beads. 


On Oct 28, 2020, at 5:36 AM, Rob de Bie <robdebie@...> wrote:

Manybe one more thing to consider: are all XPS foam blocks of the same mechanical quality? I seem to remember some stern warnings on this list in the past NOT to use just any 2 lbs XPS foam block.

Rob







 

Its the blue extruded foam. Not the EPS beadboard. 


Rob de Bie
 

That's not what I meant. I remember reading here (on this list) that the mechanical properties of the XPS foam of similar densities * but of different manufacturers * were not the same, and that some brands were not suitable for homebuilt aircraft.

Why this warning stuck in my mind is because I (then) started thinking on how to 'qualify' an XPS foam for an aircraft. I remember thinking about doing ASTM-style material testing. But at the same time the original foam was no longer available, and what had been stored was (say) 20+ years old and possibly degraded. So there would be no solid reference values.

Around 10 days ago I posted this link, of a PDF report that shows really interesting information for an unspecified XPS foam:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/132311786.pdf

The material is highly anisotropic, with very different Young's modulus values in different directions. Much more then I ever thought possible. And it's the Young's modulus value of the foam (together with the shear modulus value of the foam) that determines how much the core stabilizes the skin against buckling.

Rob

At 16:06 28 10 2020, you wrote:
Its the blue extruded foam. Not the EPS beadboard.


smeshno1@...
 

 If they use CNC abrasive wire cut then the finished bonding surface will be superior in accuracy to what you likely would obtain using hot wire methods on larger core work. Saving some slight amount of weight, but more important is the muscle work and days of time spent obtaining the final laminar profile prior to painting. Hot wire cut takes practice and is prone to cut frustrations.  

 If all the pieces are in place at the company, provide the full size cut template patterns and if they have an M.E. that is worth their salt that person can translate them into the CAD/CAM programing. After the cuts be sure to keep your excess billet block for later use, Cody. 

 They will make the perfect tool surfaces for post curing the Wing and Canard you'll be doing this coming Summer.     

Vern  


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Cody <cody.craig1985@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 10:06 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Foam blocks
 
Its the blue extruded foam. Not the EPS beadboard. 


 

Well, hopefully their ME wouldnt need to do much translating. I purchased the autocad file from Jon Matcho, just trying to get access to it. I figured if he already did the work of setting up a car with placement on the billets then they should be able to load it easily into their G-code processor. 


smeshno1@...
 

 I would agree.. I used CATIA V5 and V6 at my Contract jobs in the factories to generate CAD. Sometimes in the M.E. world we would have to "one off" or such for AOG or a short run of part for rejections. Depending on the company the CAM programs varied. Triumph was primitive to be sure but for instance at Boeing and Nordam now Gulfsteam NTR) both were up to date. I grew to prefer Autodesk Pro due to the fact it integrates very smoothly with almost all CAM systems. I have purposely let my subscription expire. Since I am an official geezer now I have done my best to extract any possible tech useful in aircraft factory life. Had enough of Certificateds.. happy to stay in LSA and Experimental Aviation now.    

 Keep your foam pedigree for your sign off paperwork. My Q "kit" has a log of everything since day one including the original invoices back to Henderson Nevada where my kit was from. I purchased the partial kit at the feet of the Sphinx (Luxor parking lot in Vegas that is!!). It's interesting reading and at signoff having those records available will make the day. 

 Let us know if they do abrasive wire CNC of your billets. It would be a boon to the list and others in search of foam work after you. Guys on the list....keep in mind that Tulsa is a strategic center location for all but Alaska and the Islands within the States. Shipping therefore is attractive. Anyone going to Enid  2021 I can assist in free delivery from Tulsa to FOD in Enid. I own a 14" flatbed trailer and a Dodge 1/2 ton so plenty of room. It would save a 3 hour drive round trip from the West into "T" town. 

Vern   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Cody <cody.craig1985@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 4:53 PM
To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Foam blocks
 
Well, hopefully their ME wouldnt need to do much translating. I purchased the autocad file from Jon Matcho, just trying to get access to it. I figured if he already did the work of setting up a car with placement on the billets then they should be able to load it easily into their G-code processor. 


smeshno1@...
 

 You bring up a great point here, Rob. John Mansfield also produces the XPS foam products. Sources are absolutely important in our requirements.  It is also true the original orange foams probably are inferior in several respects, but they remain the "known" base for structural testing done some years ago. I have extra orange low density.. definitely enough for a "half canard" from the QAC plans. They were hot wire cut rather in a typical way. Not what I would like to use for wing or canard. 

 What suggestion would others here make to do a current R&D and perhaps bring this study to FOD?  The need is there for those having to start with partial or compromised aircraft. Actually, such information is viable to the entire EAA builders involved in Rutan construction methods. The canard is the structure to verify primarily, from there we can easily extrapolate the Wing, ect...

 I propose to take the test articles in stages to failure. Stages also include reflex test on the way to final. Something I have a personal wish to learn also is to define negative G load limits as well. Anyone read the recent Kitplanes article about the extreme limits in turbulence two experienced pilots endured? That information in the article is much something we all can learn from. 

Vern   


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Rob de Bie <robdebie@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 12:03 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Foam blocks
 
That's not what I meant. I remember reading here (on this list) that
the mechanical properties of the XPS foam of similar densities * but
of different manufacturers * were not the same, and that some brands
were not suitable for homebuilt aircraft.

Why this warning stuck in my mind is because I (then) started
thinking on how to 'qualify' an XPS foam for an aircraft. I remember
thinking about doing ASTM-style material testing. But at the same
time the original foam was no longer available, and what had been
stored was (say) 20+ years old and possibly degraded. So there would
be no solid reference values.

Around 10 days ago I posted this link, of a PDF report that shows
really interesting information for an unspecified XPS foam:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/132311786.pdf

The material is highly anisotropic, with very different Young's
modulus values in different directions. Much more then I ever thought
possible. And it's the Young's modulus value of the foam (together
with the shear modulus value of the foam) that determines how much
the core stabilizes the skin against buckling.

Rob



At 16:06 28 10 2020, you wrote:
>Its the blue extruded foam. Not the EPS beadboard.
>







 

Vern, 

I would love to spend an afternoon if possible picking your brain. I just live in Bartlesville so ot wouldn't kill me. Lmao but you might get tired of me.

Cody


 

Rob, 
I referred to some of the other guys with successful airfoils using DOW brand blue 2lb density XPS Foam. My understanding so far is its a suitable replacement. I started this foam search a few weeks ago by calling Steve at Eureka CNC. Oddly enough lives just a few blocks away from my born and raised home. But I digress, he said the DOW brand is the same as the old orange, just a different dye. Rather than rely on one source I've turned to here for information as well. Reports so far are favorable, as long as I don't get confused with the white crap. I was very specific to this pipe insulation company out of Tulsa. They specialize in cutting this insulation for industrial pipe insulation purposes. I personally figured if they could cut a beautiful circle, they could "add a taper or love" I believe they use hotwire methods. Hopefully CNC at least. But further more they do this everyday. They must be far more practiced than I with cutting foam regardless of exact method. I'm trying to reduce mistakes and therefore workload long term. If I can get the right job done with the best people, (probably not me for this). It'll make a beautiful strong and safe airplane I'd be proud to show and fly. 


smeshno1@...
 

 Mighty slim pickins...if you were to ask my former bosses. I tend to agree with them now that I am not a cubical rat anymore. As M.E. we tend to think a bit differently than Design or Stress. Charlie was also M.E. in his paid profession. Sometimes at odds with Design but as far as Stress... we gave them blank checks.   

 I will be out of State for a few weeks but what might be better is to gather the Oky owners informally with you. There are answers I would not be able to provide since my poor ol project is still in the Frankenstein config (or would that be FrankenSTEEN?).  Not in one piece. Maybe bring our plans set and the newsletters and other docs too.  Bruce in Enid is not the only owner of a Q in the area. Cushing also has representation, possibly others as well. 

 It's my expectation to fly off the required 40 hours (in my case, must be 40 minimum) out of Cushing. The plan is to base out of either Skiatook or Bristow once I am confident in myself and the machine. Hangar space at an airport being the major determining factor. Cleveland or Sand Springs (Pogue) are also possible bases but there is no place to park if the fan up front no longer keeps the pilot cooled off! Trees and hills. Pointy rocks too.       


Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Cody <cody.craig1985@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2020 10:07 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Foam blocks
 
Vern, 

I would love to spend an afternoon if possible picking your brain. I just live in Bartlesville so ot wouldn't kill me. Lmao but you might get tired of me.

Cody


 

So far I only know of you and Bruce. Ive met Bruce already since he graced me with his plane for an afternoon. I think thats when I fell hard for quickies. It felt so natural. I'm also joining the EAA chapter in Owasso. 


ryan goodman
 

I haven't read through this and I'm sure the answer is in here somewhere, but what specifically are you looking for? Sorry for being lazy but I may know where there is a small cache of foam.


On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:37 PM, Cody
<cody.craig1985@...> wrote:
So far I only know of you and Bruce. Ive met Bruce already since he graced me with his plane for an afternoon. I think thats when I fell hard for quickies. It felt so natural. I'm also joining the EAA chapter in Owasso. 


smeshno1@...
 

 First put on your calendar for September 2021 that you will be traveling to Enid. 

Imrann has his Q in progress at Cushing last I hear. Imraan and his wife Rachel are partners of the FOD gathering 
in Enid.

 FOD in this case meaning Field Of Dreams.  

 I will be sure to attend FOD also in 2021. I am currently building a 1 bd 1 bath cottage and also a hangar on my property to complete two aircraft projects. One is a Capella XS-2 LSA and the next will be the Frankenbird. The LSA is for my wife to earn her LSA certification and also so I don't stay a penguin for the remainder of my life. The Capella is a rather simple repair project (new right wing and flap, strip the fabric off the tailfeathers and re cover..FWF and a few instrument panel changes like switches and some engine management), so well ahead of the Frankenbird. I've done a lot of tube and fabric in the past as well as Sheetmetal. Many varied Powerplant as well. 

  That said, Domicile building has forced my efforts in that direction first. It is the second home I have built for myself. The first was on 50 acres which I owned outright in Taos County from back in the mid 90's.  The homrd design is an approved construction in NM and also in Arizona called an Earthship.  They are 100% off grid,  built from used tires, bottles, and cans.  Took me 10 years to finish that build. We sold in 2016 and move to Oklahoma (first to Owasso) partly because my wife Larisa is a gardener. High Country New Mexico is not an ideal place to grow orchard trees. I get to assist on her projects on our small 2 acres here in Mannford as well!!

 EAA is a great source and support but having others nearby to the specifics of your building is the bees knees. I doubt many at Owasso Chapter have flown in a Q, let alone as PIC.  Still they are an established and older chapter and that alone is of great value. The true gain in aerospace has always been from innovation from more than one point of view. Much from the homebuilt level is of very high value in part because profit is not the presumed goal. As Americans being able to innovate in aviation is a privilege we should never take for granted.     

 About the completed aircraft. They are unique for sure (not one Tandem Wing attended Arlington EAA in 2013..the third largest EAA event..the last fly-in I attended while there). One day you will fly to an airport in your Q with a younger FBO operator to meet you at the fuel pumps and my bet is you'll get plenty of attention.  The "red carpet" rolled out. These aircraft are natural eye candy and if you're the type that likes to visit a bit at nearly every stop then you found your dream machine. It is one reason I have moved this partial kit around half the USA to this day. I'll be keeping a photo or two of finished ones on my hangar wall while building. 

 Vern


From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Cody <cody.craig1985@...>
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 9:37 PM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Foam blocks
 
So far I only know of you and Bruce. Ive met Bruce already since he graced me with his plane for an afternoon. I think thats when I fell hard for quickies. It felt so natural. I'm also joining the EAA chapter in Owasso.