Fuselage assembly


 

For the people who have completed the fuselage..... If you had it to do over, would you have built the fuselage different? IE, would you have assembled the aileron linkages, armrests, fuel tank etc before mating the top? Or is it best to mate the top and crawl inside? I'm at this junction point in the build as I've bonded the firewall and FS94 in the bottom half. Its quite the difficult question since seating position is customized based on the aft canopy bulkhead etc....


Jay Scheevel
 

I think the original plans design of building the fuselage first was a marketing ploy so that people could work one sub section at a time and buy it from QAC. If they never got any farther, QAC still got to sell something to them.

 

I did everything I could possibly do on the fuselage shells before I ever assembled them.  To facilitate this effort, I built hard points of flox/phenolic at about 8” spacing, with dowels sticking out of one side and a socket hole on the mating opposite side. This allowed for hundreds of assembly disassembly steps over the years of building.  Furniture straps hold them together firmly.  In my opinion, life was much easier because of this and fitting/measuring and verifying also was easier.  I do not think I am the only one who did it this way, but it worked very well. By the way, I also cut out a section from the forward top shell and built the header onto that as a single unit. I did not bond this header unit into place until very late, in order to allow me to work on the aft side of the firewall unimpeded.

 

Here is a link to the fuse section build log: http://n8wq.scheevel.com/documents/build_logs/02_N8WQ-log_Construction-Fuselage.pdf

 

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cody
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2020 10:14 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: [Q-List] Fuselage assembly

 

For the people who have completed the fuselage..... If you had it to do over, would you have built the fuselage different? IE, would you have assembled the aileron linkages, armrests, fuel tank etc before mating the top? Or is it best to mate the top and crawl inside? I'm at this junction point in the build as I've bonded the firewall and FS94 in the bottom half. Its quite the difficult question since seating position is customized based on the aft canopy bulkhead etc....


Michael Dunning
 

This is strictly nonsense from the Good-Idea-Fairy (so really it goes in Q-Performance) but...

Given ongoing issues with fuel compatibility (was 100LL vs. AvGas but with nonleaded 100 coming, who knows)...maybe look at fitting a welded aluminum tank inside the plans-built header/main fuel tanks? I believe the main tank composite shell is structural, so this idea is more like the homebuilders version of a permanent fuel bladder. I've toyed with using this idea on my header since the VW and modern engines like the unleaded but it would certainly be easier to plan from the beginning.

JMASAL DISCALIMER: Any deviations from the plans will add 8 million years to your build time :D

--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


Jay Scheevel
 

If you build aluminum tanks, I suggest you put them in an aluminum aircraft.

 

The standard tank construction is just fine. If you want to be sure of their leak resistance, do what I did and slosh them with the FAA-PMA sloshing compound from Aircraft Spruce. This works just fine. (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/bunan.php)

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2020 11:22 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Fuselage assembly

 

This is strictly nonsense from the Good-Idea-Fairy (so really it goes in Q-Performance) but...

Given ongoing issues with fuel compatibility (was 100LL vs. AvGas but with nonleaded 100 coming, who knows)...maybe look at fitting a welded aluminum tank inside the plans-built header/main fuel tanks? I believe the main tank composite shell is structural, so this idea is more like the homebuilders version of a permanent fuel bladder. I've toyed with using this idea on my header since the VW and modern engines like the unleaded but it would certainly be easier to plan from the beginning.

JMASAL DISCALIMER: Any deviations from the plans will add 8 million years to your build time :D

--
-MD
#2827 (still thinking about planning on visualizing how to finish building)


 

Jay wouldn't proseal work as well? I have a lot of that at the shop I was thinking about using.


Jay Scheevel
 

I‘ve never used it, but hey knock yourself out. I would think it can’t hurt 


On Dec 12, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Cody <cody.craig1985@...> wrote:

Jay wouldn't proseal work as well? I have a lot of that at the shop I was thinking about using.


Sam Hoskins
 

Pure epoxy works just fine. Just make sure you have good coverage. An aluminum tank makes no sense. As for compounds to prevent leaks, that's what the epoxy is for. I have heard of people of applying sealant to the inside of the tanks and it peeled off and made a big complicated mess. Again, you're looking at a solution in search of a problem.

Sam Hoskins 

On Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 10:00 PM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
I‘ve never used it, but hey knock yourself out. I would think it can’t hurt 


On Dec 12, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Cody <cody.craig1985@...> wrote:

Jay wouldn't proseal work as well? I have a lot of that at the shop I was thinking about using.


Richard Kaczmarek 3RD
 

Proseal is great for aluminum tanks but does not like any type of auto fuels do to additives outside of ethanol/methanol and it never fully hardens. Van's aircraft uses it to seal their tanks. We have always used Rhino 9700 on epoxy tanks it was created to protect epoxy structures from acids and alchohol it is a great way to make sure a fiberglass epoxy tank never leaks. Since it is an epoxy with a Novak backbone it will not peel like other tank coatings. It does not work on a metal surface. It has been used for years by Lancair in all their tanks as well as A2CZ and other epoxy build aircraft. 

Richard

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 7:30 AM Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:
Pure epoxy works just fine. Just make sure you have good coverage. An aluminum tank makes no sense. As for compounds to prevent leaks, that's what the epoxy is for. I have heard of people of applying sealant to the inside of the tanks and it peeled off and made a big complicated mess. Again, you're looking at a solution in search of a problem.

Sam Hoskins 

On Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 10:00 PM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
I‘ve never used it, but hey knock yourself out. I would think it can’t hurt 


On Dec 12, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Cody <cody.craig1985@...> wrote:

Jay wouldn't proseal work as well? I have a lot of that at the shop I was thinking about using.


Mike Steinsland
 

Hi guys
My name is Mike
I live in Parry Sound  Ontario. 

I just picked up a project that I plan on getting into after the new year and all the business of the holidays are over
I have a ton of questions but I'll save them for later when I can keep up the corespondence. 
One question I do have since you're on the topic 
I do have what appears to be aftermarket drawings of the bell pan install
They're pretty messy to read
Dies anyone have any clear drawings? 

Lots of good stuff I have been reading for the last month from you guys
I'm looking forward to the project 


On Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 9:51 AM Richard Kaczmarek 3RD, <fastlittleairplanes@...> wrote:
Proseal is great for aluminum tanks but does not like any type of auto fuels do to additives outside of ethanol/methanol and it never fully hardens. Van's aircraft uses it to seal their tanks. We have always used Rhino 9700 on epoxy tanks it was created to protect epoxy structures from acids and alchohol it is a great way to make sure a fiberglass epoxy tank never leaks. Since it is an epoxy with a Novak backbone it will not peel like other tank coatings. It does not work on a metal surface. It has been used for years by Lancair in all their tanks as well as A2CZ and other epoxy build aircraft. 

Richard

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 7:30 AM Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:
Pure epoxy works just fine. Just make sure you have good coverage. An aluminum tank makes no sense. As for compounds to prevent leaks, that's what the epoxy is for. I have heard of people of applying sealant to the inside of the tanks and it peeled off and made a big complicated mess. Again, you're looking at a solution in search of a problem.

Sam Hoskins 

On Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 10:00 PM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
I‘ve never used it, but hey knock yourself out. I would think it can’t hurt 


On Dec 12, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Cody <cody.craig1985@...> wrote:

Jay wouldn't proseal work as well? I have a lot of that at the shop I was thinking about using.


Jay Scheevel
 

Welcome, Mike.

 

I have never heard of a bell pan.  Can you send a picture?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Steinsland
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2020 10:15 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io Group Moderators <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Fuselage assembly

 

Hi guys

My name is Mike

I live in Parry Sound  Ontario. 

 

I just picked up a project that I plan on getting into after the new year and all the business of the holidays are over

I have a ton of questions but I'll save them for later when I can keep up the corespondence. 

One question I do have since you're on the topic 

I do have what appears to be aftermarket drawings of the bell pan install

They're pretty messy to read

Dies anyone have any clear drawings? 

 

Lots of good stuff I have been reading for the last month from you guys

I'm looking forward to the project 

 

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 9:51 AM Richard Kaczmarek 3RD, <fastlittleairplanes@...> wrote:

Proseal is great for aluminum tanks but does not like any type of auto fuels do to additives outside of ethanol/methanol and it never fully hardens. Van's aircraft uses it to seal their tanks. We have always used Rhino 9700 on epoxy tanks it was created to protect epoxy structures from acids and alchohol it is a great way to make sure a fiberglass epoxy tank never leaks. Since it is an epoxy with a Novak backbone it will not peel like other tank coatings. It does not work on a metal surface. It has been used for years by Lancair in all their tanks as well as A2CZ and other epoxy build aircraft. 

 

Richard

 

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 7:30 AM Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:

Pure epoxy works just fine. Just make sure you have good coverage. An aluminum tank makes no sense. As for compounds to prevent leaks, that's what the epoxy is for. I have heard of people of applying sealant to the inside of the tanks and it peeled off and made a big complicated mess. Again, you're looking at a solution in search of a problem.

 

Sam Hoskins 

 

On Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 10:00 PM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

I‘ve never used it, but hey knock yourself out. I would think it can’t hurt 



On Dec 12, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Cody <cody.craig1985@...> wrote:

Jay wouldn't proseal work as well? I have a lot of that at the shop I was thinking about using.


Jeffrey Bevilacqua <jlbevila@...>
 

Richard, I’d rather not use fuel tank sealant if I don’t need it but will need to fuel it to see the tanks integrity. Do you have any experience with the epoxy slosh used in a tank after it contained fuel and then drained and dried. Thanks. 


On Dec 13, 2020, at 6:51 AM, Richard Kaczmarek 3RD <fastlittleairplanes@...> wrote:


Proseal is great for aluminum tanks but does not like any type of auto fuels do to additives outside of ethanol/methanol and it never fully hardens. Van's aircraft uses it to seal their tanks. We have always used Rhino 9700 on epoxy tanks it was created to protect epoxy structures from acids and alchohol it is a great way to make sure a fiberglass epoxy tank never leaks. Since it is an epoxy with a Novak backbone it will not peel like other tank coatings. It does not work on a metal surface. It has been used for years by Lancair in all their tanks as well as A2CZ and other epoxy build aircraft. 

Richard

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 7:30 AM Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:
Pure epoxy works just fine. Just make sure you have good coverage. An aluminum tank makes no sense. As for compounds to prevent leaks, that's what the epoxy is for. I have heard of people of applying sealant to the inside of the tanks and it peeled off and made a big complicated mess. Again, you're looking at a solution in search of a problem.

Sam Hoskins 

On Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 10:00 PM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
I‘ve never used it, but hey knock yourself out. I would think it can’t hurt 


On Dec 12, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Cody <cody.craig1985@...> wrote:

Jay wouldn't proseal work as well? I have a lot of that at the shop I was thinking about using.


Richard Kaczmarek 3RD
 

Unfortunately we have had experience with the different types of tank slosh and like I believe Sam said don't do it. If you want to check the tank don't put fuel in instead do a 24 hour balloon test. Refresh my memory you have the ULPower on the Dragonfly correct?

Richard


Jeffrey Bevilacqua <jlbevila@...>
 

Correct. UL power 350IS. Just finishing up the new cowling. Then will do my first engine start. I would have already been flying if I used the smaller engine to fit my cowl. Thanks for the advise Richard. 


On Dec 13, 2020, at 10:37 AM, Richard Kaczmarek 3RD <fastlittleairplanes@...> wrote:

Unfortunately we have had experience with the different types of tank slosh and like I believe Sam said don't do it. If you want to check the tank don't put fuel in instead do a 24 hour balloon test. Refresh my memory you have the ULPower on the Dragonfly correct?

Richard


Chris Walterson
 

Cody-----------  I have started to build my Q about two years ago. I think I built the fuselage to the plans. I made the header tank with lots of epoxi and then attach it to the front turtle deck upside down so gravity helps you. I then pressure tested with a balloon and attached the entire assembly to the fuselage. Tape the outside together and do the inside when you flip the  fuselage and do the cutout for the canard. Tape the inside wing to fuselage joint also when it is flipped. Do not install the dash until all the taping is done.

 My main fuel tank was to plans with lots of epoxi. I did make a five inch round hole on top of the tank under the pilots butt and the passengers butt.  This had a glass to glass edge.  I marked on the fuselage the outside of the fuel tank, removed tank and used wet flox  on the edges of both the fuel tank and the fuselage. Lay then both together and reach in the inspection holes and do a good finger wipe to the excess flox. Do a good flox joint on the outside also.  Weigh it down and come back in about 8 hrs and do the glass layup. I then layed up I think 5 layers of ten ounce on a sheet. Let it harden and then cut a 5 inch round circle and flox it to the inspection holes with another layer of ten ounce going onto the tank. After it hardens I again pressure test it with the balloon. This time I had the smallest pin hole leak where my filler is so get out the shop vac and set it into the fuel tank and pull a vaccuum.  Heat up the pin hole with a hair blower and heat up some epoxi and let it be drawn into the leak.  No more problem.  I built my Super Quicke fuel tank this way and it also worked great.

I think on the plans it says to install the sump in a certain spot, but if I remember I measured  and installed mine at the back of the tank hoping that is the lowest spot.

One thing that may help is to install the fuel tank maybe a 1/2 to 1 inch further back to give you a bit of fudge factor. If you make your canard a touch too wide you may have elevator tube clearance problems with the fuel tank  because the wing has sweep built in.

 Also, it was in one of the newsletter to make your back of the main fuselage table slideable. This is very handy for sliding the tail back and forth while doing the connection tabs, reflexor, taping etc.

 Another thing I did was to install my com antenna and pitot tube inside my vertical stab.

 There is many other things to do and if you can't figure it out, lots of bin there done that on this site. Just ask.

 Going into the shop to lay up the canard root fairing.----- take care---------------  Chris




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Chris Walterson
 

Cody-------------  Here is a picture of as far as I went with the fuselage before I installed the wing and canard.----  Chris



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Mike Steinsland
 

Sorry 
Thinking auto and as I said I have lots on the go, too much to add the start of this project right now. Should  free up a lot of time next month then I can dig into this.

II think I should have asked  about this  on another chain. I was asking about the belly board.

Thanks


On Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 12:16 PM Jay Scheevel, <jay@...> wrote:

Welcome, Mike.

 

I have never heard of a bell pan.  Can you send a picture?

 

Cheers,

Jay

 

From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Steinsland
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2020 10:15 AM
To: main@Q-List.groups.io Group Moderators <main@q-list.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Q-List] Fuselage assembly

 

Hi guys

My name is Mike

I live in Parry Sound  Ontario. 

 

I just picked up a project that I plan on getting into after the new year and all the business of the holidays are over

I have a ton of questions but I'll save them for later when I can keep up the corespondence. 

One question I do have since you're on the topic 

I do have what appears to be aftermarket drawings of the bell pan install

They're pretty messy to read

Dies anyone have any clear drawings? 

 

Lots of good stuff I have been reading for the last month from you guys

I'm looking forward to the project 

 

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 9:51 AM Richard Kaczmarek 3RD, <fastlittleairplanes@...> wrote:

Proseal is great for aluminum tanks but does not like any type of auto fuels do to additives outside of ethanol/methanol and it never fully hardens. Van's aircraft uses it to seal their tanks. We have always used Rhino 9700 on epoxy tanks it was created to protect epoxy structures from acids and alchohol it is a great way to make sure a fiberglass epoxy tank never leaks. Since it is an epoxy with a Novak backbone it will not peel like other tank coatings. It does not work on a metal surface. It has been used for years by Lancair in all their tanks as well as A2CZ and other epoxy build aircraft. 

 

Richard

 

On Sun, Dec 13, 2020, 7:30 AM Sam Hoskins <sam.hoskins@...> wrote:

Pure epoxy works just fine. Just make sure you have good coverage. An aluminum tank makes no sense. As for compounds to prevent leaks, that's what the epoxy is for. I have heard of people of applying sealant to the inside of the tanks and it peeled off and made a big complicated mess. Again, you're looking at a solution in search of a problem.

 

Sam Hoskins 

 

On Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 10:00 PM Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:

I‘ve never used it, but hey knock yourself out. I would think it can’t hurt 



On Dec 12, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Cody <cody.craig1985@...> wrote:

Jay wouldn't proseal work as well? I have a lot of that at the shop I was thinking about using.


 

This is all awesome and useful information!