Wing load testing and max weight
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ryan goodman
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Ryan,
Do you live in Switzerland? If not, there is no need to do a load test unless you want to damage your wings on purpose. If you feel like your wings are built improperly, you should build new ones, not load test good ones. I do not recommend trying to take off at 1400 lb’s. I don’t think anyone else would recommend that either.
Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of ryan goodman via groups.io
Q2/200/TriQ
Two questions(ok multi part, but two subjects): How many people have done a load test on their wing or canard? If so did you just use the cement bag method and how high did you test to.
Anyone have a MTOW of 1400lbs or greater and is so what are you using?
Thanks, Ryan
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ryan goodman
Jay,
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I do not live in Switzerland. And it's more of a curiosity than anything. The often discussed (design) g limits are pretty substantial. I was just curious if anyone had ever tested it out. 1400lb question, I figured as much. I've seen some with 1300 as their listed MTOW, I was just wondering if anyone has pushed it further. The Q's and similar designs have just evolved so much since inception with seemingly more capability somehow extracted with each generation of owners. You don't get that with many designs. Most experience some improvement. But the Q's seem to just always have a little more to offer in the right hands..... Hence my curiosity on these things. Ryan
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Martin Skiby
I agree with Jay. Why would you want to risk damage? If you suspect they are not properly built then build new ones. I do not believe there has ever been an in flight failure of a wing or Canard. Except for the one wher they used the area over the main wing for fuel and it got in and dissolved the foam.
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The original Q200 main wing will certainly do some movement, but I was never afraid of it and I flew thru some nasty turbulence. So much that I nearly knocked myself out hitting the canopy. Had to lean toward the center and tighten the shoulder straps up to get thru it. When the wing was damaged from a hanger door falling on it we replaced with a new one with the new layup schedule and it was a little stiffer. Anyway, that’s my story. Martin
On Feb 11, 2021, at 6:39 PM, ryan goodman via groups.io <elboy0712@...> wrote:
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Mike Dwyer
If the stall speed is 67mph at 800 lbs, what would it be at 1400 lbs? The tail dragger LS1 canard is sized for the landing impact, not the in flight load. The factory Q200 had a 1100 lb gross weight limit. Obviously they didn't think 1400 is safe. Mike Q200 N3QP
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Hi Mike and Ryan,
I plugged 800 pounds GW into the Q200 aerodynamic model that I created several years ago (modeling the plans-built Q200). In this model, I get 67 mph CAS as the Vmin**, in ground effect. When I increase the GW to 1400 pounds, I get a Vmin of 88 mph in ground effect. So that is probably as close an answer as you are going to get to your question about flying at 1400 pounds.
I usually fly between 1000 and 1100 pounds GW. For those weights, the model produces a Vmin of 75 and 78 mph respectively.
I have also built a model that is customized to match my personal aircraft performance (Tri-Q2, with some minor aero mods). I get a Vmin of 70 mph at 1000 GW, and 74 mph at 1100 pounds. This is spot on with what I have measured in flight. At 1400 pounds, my plane would theoretically have a Vmin of 84 mph (I won’t be flight testing this!)
Cheers, Jay
**I say Vmin because with a tandem wing configuration never really stalls, it just reaches a configuration where airspeed cannot get any lower and then the decent rate makes up for any energy deficit required to hold that airspeed…..but that is another story, for another time.
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Dwyer
If the stall speed is 67mph at 800 lbs, what would it be at 1400 lbs?
The tail dragger LS1 canard is sized for the landing impact, not the in flight load.
The factory Q200 had a 1100 lb gross weight limit. Obviously they didn't think 1400 is safe.
Mike Q200 N3QP
On Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 8:00 PM ryan goodman via groups.io <elboy0712=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
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I believe the Q2 had a gross weight of 1100 lbs. It was never determined from QAC what the Q200 gross was. I made my 1,325 lbs. after flight testing it to that load and have flown it at that weight a few times. I took off from Albuquerque heading east once
in the summer fully loaded, It wasn’t fun. The Sandia Mountain range took a while to get over.
I gave flight training last week to Captain Mike Neidenthal. He’s getting ready for his first solo in the Q200. Our weight was 1296
lbs. The plane flew fine. It just took about 20% more runway to get off. Elevation is 497’
at Livermore. We still had a decent climb at rare 8-900’ fpm.
Jim
N46JP - Q200
Sent from Outer Space
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...>
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 4:50:21 AM To: main@q-list.groups.io <main@q-list.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Wing load testing and max weight If the stall speed is 67mph at 800 lbs, what would it be at 1400 lbs?
The tail dragger LS1 canard is sized for the landing impact, not the in flight load.
The factory Q200 had a 1100 lb gross weight limit. Obviously they didn't think 1400 is safe.
Mike Q200 N3QP
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Btw, Mike is 250 lbs, 6’2” or so and I am 200 lbs. I’m not suggesting anyone fly their Q200 at Jim
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Jim - come give me flight training next so I can start nailing these landings! Corbin
On February 12, 2021 at 10:29 AM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:
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Corbin N33QR
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Corbin, I should be in Bentonville in a couple months. I would be happy to do that.
Jim
N46JP Q200
Sent from Outer Space
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Corbin via groups.io <c_geiser@...>
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 8:48:35 AM To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Wing load testing and max weight Jim - come give me flight training next so I can start nailing these landings!
Corbin
On February 12, 2021 at 10:29 AM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:
-- Corbin N33QR
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That would be great...keep me in the loop on timing! Corbin
On February 12, 2021 at 11:15 AM, Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:
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Corbin N33QR
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Jay can you please calculate what my stall speed should have been at 1,296 lbs. using your program. The plane with both of us never felt mushy. Jim
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My analysis does not include the power requirement for climb, since the Vmin numbers I quoted were for maintaining level flight.
The calculation for power required to climb are something like this: 31 horsepower is required for 1000 fpm climb rate for 1000 lb/GW. So, if you are seeing 300 fpm max climb rate at 1000 lb. (at high density altitude), then you only have about 10 excess horsepower at that altitude that you are devoting to climb. The rest of your power is just maintaining level flight airspeed. If you load to 1300 pounds under these same conditions, you will not climb at all.
At my typical density altitude of 6000’, and my normal weight of 1000-1100 pounds, I see around 600 fpm max climb, meaning I have about 20 hp I devote to climbing. If I were to load to 1300 pounds, I would feel the same pucker factor that Jim had at ABQ.
Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 9:29 AM To: main@Q-List.groups.io Subject: Re: [Q-List] Wing load testing and max weight
I believe the Q2 had a gross weight of 1100 lbs. It was never determined from QAC what the Q200 gross was. I made my 1,325 lbs. after flight testing it to that load and have flown it at that weight a few times. I took off from Albuquerque heading east once in the summer fully loaded, It wasn’t fun. The Sandia Mountain range took a while to get over.
I gave flight training last week to Captain Mike Neidenthal. He’s getting ready for his first solo in the Q200. Our weight was 1296 lbs. The plane flew fine. It just took about 20% more runway to get off. Elevation is 497’ at Livermore. We still had a decent climb at rare 8-900’ fpm.
Jim N46JP - Q200
Sent from Outer Space From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Mike Dwyer <q200pilot@...>
If the stall speed is 67mph at 800 lbs, what would it be at 1400 lbs?
The tail dragger LS1 canard is sized for the landing impact, not the in flight load.
The factory Q200 had a 1100 lb gross weight limit. Obviously they didn't think 1400 is safe.
Mike Q200 N3QP
On Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 8:00 PM ryan goodman via groups.io <elboy0712=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
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ryan goodman
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Ryan, I did not say that! Reread what I said.
Jim
Sent from Outer Space
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of ryan goodman via groups.io <elboy0712@...>
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 9:29:35 AM To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Wing load testing and max weight
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John Lewis
Greetings Group: In response to the talk about exceeding the design gross weight of a Q200 from a mechanical engineer with lots of dreams and no flying project, this is my two cent's worth. The wings on an airplane, especially a composite like the Q2, are not designed to be strong enough to not break off. They are designed to be STIFF enough not to flex too much, bounce wrong, or flutter. Once they are stiff enough, they are usually vastly over-strong. Testing for breaking alone does not assure they will be airworthy. Please be careful and make sure to test for the right properties when pushing out the boundaries of a design. A load test is a good start, but don't skip taxi and flight testing as well. John Lewis
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Brian Larick
Martin you referenced “new layup schedule for the main wing...is that in the newsletters or somewhere else?
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Brian
On Feb 12, 2021, at 11:29, Jim Patillo <Logistics_engineering@...> wrote:
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ryan goodman
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Hi Jim,
Do you use reflexor when you are flying at 1296. It will make a difference in the calculation. Let me know and I will do the calculation with reflexor. With no reflexor I get 84 mph indicated at that weight for the stock Q200.
Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
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No reflexor at 1296 lbs. at takeoff. I only use reflexor after landing and at gross in flight cruise to shift cg forward.
Jim
N46JP Q200
Sent from Outer Space
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> on behalf of Jay Scheevel <jay@...>
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 11:12:25 AM To: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Q-List] Wing load testing and max weight Hi Jim,
Do you use reflexor when you are flying at 1296. It will make a difference in the calculation. Let me know and I will do the calculation with reflexor. With no reflexor I get 84 mph indicated at that weight for the stock Q200.
Cheers, Jay
From: main@Q-List.groups.io <main@Q-List.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Jim Patillo
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